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CJmike
07-16-2008, 08:26 AM
Pro's Con's to any of the above cubic inch combinations?

Trying to come up with a plan on where to go with the 454 Mag MPI in the 27zx.

Will the stock fuel injection system handle the big inch combinations and high horsepowers or will it run out of air? I assume that dropping in bigger injectors you probable can run any of the combinations. But will the stock MAG MPI handle a 565?

What kind of power can a stock Bravo 1 handle before it goes BOOM? 500hp, 600hp, or is it only the 700hp level that makes things go bang.

Carl C
07-16-2008, 08:34 AM
:popcorn: This should be a good one. With my limited knowledge of BBCs I'd say forget the 454 but add the 502 to your list of contenders.

CJmike
07-16-2008, 08:42 AM
454 or 496 utilize existing block in the boat. If going to a new block I wouldn't bother with the 502 I would at least do a 540 or maybe 565. Hence why I listed those combinations. Almost bought a Dart block last weekend off ebay but then realized it might shorten my life span if the wife found out.:smash:

Carl C
07-16-2008, 08:49 AM
454 or 496 utilize existing block in the boat. If going to a new block I wouldn't bother with the 502 I would at least do a 540 or maybe 565. Hence why I listed those combinations. I thought it was the other way around. I'll be quiet and follow this and learn too.:propeller:

CJmike
07-16-2008, 08:53 AM
Carl when I say 496 I am talking a stroked 454 not a factory 496. Basically the same combination as the 540 just a smaller bore.

mrfixxall
07-16-2008, 08:53 AM
go with the 496 combo but dont cheep out on the rotating assembly (eagle junk). spend a few extra bucks on the light weight crankshaft,me personally i like bryant crankshafts (their almost bullit proof)! oliver rod and a set of je pistons and you wont be dissapointed with a rock solid bottom end..

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 08:53 AM
This always makes for a good discussion.

The MPI platform is great and you have a MEFI-3 so it has some good flexibility.

I am told that it runs out of air somewhere around the upper 500 hp range. There is a guy in Michigan that has pulled mid 600 hp out of his with a 540. He spent lots of time on his and claims to have a good recipe. I have his number if you want to talk to him.

You get into a point where folks start the MPI vs carb debate. Anyone that has been involved with a bunch of MPI tuning probably knows both sides of that story.


Now when you get into boost.....well those MPI systems really like that!

I would consider a HP goal and then figure out the best way to get there.

Now the drive on the other hand......I say that much past 575 or so you really max out a Bravo I:popcorn:

CJmike
07-16-2008, 09:01 AM
I think the boat should go at least 70mph. Anything above that would probable be above my driving abilities for now. My thoughts are to build a solid bottom end that would get me to that goal with as close to stock idle and driveabilty. Then if 70 proves to be to low of a goal add some boost. My thoughts lead to big cubic inches will keep it driveable but add HP/Torque. Getting the HP/Torque up on the smaller inch combinations may take away from driveabilty.

Carl C
07-16-2008, 09:15 AM
Carl when I say 496 I am talking a stroked 454 not a factory 496. Basically the same combination as the 540 just a smaller bore.Got it! NOW I'll shut up and learn.

BigGrizzly
07-16-2008, 09:16 AM
I am going to agree with mr fix and Hedg. the good part is your shooting at a MPH attainable goal.

handfulz28
07-16-2008, 09:50 AM
How much HP do you need for 70mph?
How much of a factor is cost? Both now and down the line?
How bad do you want to stay with fuel injection? Are you married to the Merc setup?
How important is it that you can brag about having a 540, or do you prefer the sleeper approach?

A NA 454 can get you 450hp easily.
A blown 454 can get you 525hp (Merc's 525SC).
A NA 496/502 can get you 500hp+. Tyler Crockett gets 500hp out of 502MAG MPIs with a cam and top end work. Supposedly he was working on a new intake but I don't remember if that was for the "MAG MPI" or the "HP EFI"/AS&M setup.
I'm guessing the MPI setup runs out of flow above those ci and isn't cost effective for the HP generated.

Personally I like the idea of 496s with large oval heads for 500hp. The problem is the MAG MPI intake is large rectangle so it wouldn't work. The AS&M/GM Ramjet is offered in a large oval setup. Volvo and Marine Power used these in their BBCs.

CJmike
07-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Hedgehog can probable answer what the boat took HP wise to get to 70mph. Seems to me he was over that MPH wise when he had the blown 502 in the boat. I think I remember 75 was mentioned but maybe I wasn't listening right. Now what kind of power is a 502 with a blower?

Its got rectangular port now so I am guessing I would stick with that set up. Certainly would like to stick with fuel inection. Not a big fan of carbs. Off road world which I come from ditched them long ago.

I have a friend that has built all my motors and will build this one as well. So no mercruiser stuff too expensive for what you get in my eyes. Right now I run a little 347 stroker ford in my off road rig that is a crowd favorite where we race. Put that togther way way cheaper than a crate and it performs real nice.

roadtrip se
07-16-2008, 10:26 AM
A NA 496/502 can get you 500hp+. Tyler Crockett gets 500hp out of 502MAG MPIs with a cam and top end work. Supposedly he was working on a new intake but I don't remember if that was for the "MAG MPI" or the "HP EFI"/AS&M setup.
I'm guessing the MPI setup runs out of flow above those ci and isn't cost effective for the HP generated.


It was for the HP EFI.

Researching....

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 10:31 AM
Getting to 70 will take between 575 and 600 hp. You can probably do a little better if you spend some time playing around with 3 bladed props. That power (and more) has been done with a 540 N/A on a MPI platform. A guy named Smitty claims to have done it on Tyler's dyno.

I always thought that the boat would make a nice 75-80 mph boat with big power.

After driving the 26ZX for a while, there are some things that I really miss about that boat. First of all you notice a big difference in size after you go into the cabin for the 10th time in a day. Additionally, the ride and handling or the 27ZX are superb. Big power boats with higher X-dimensions do not like the stop and go that seems to happen on the lake and have a rougher ride.

That being said, I do like my rocket ship. If I did not have my X-18 for general running around I probably would have done a few things differently.

Another solution is to build a big hp carb 540 for cheap. You can break 70 with that. You can always throw on a procharger and cooler later. I would not even consider that though because it might be the easy way!:smash:

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 10:37 AM
Hedgehog can probable answer what the boat took HP wise to get to 70mph. Seems to me he was over that MPH wise when he had the blown 502 in the boat. I think I remember 75 was mentioned but maybe I wasn't listening right. Now what kind of power is a 502 with a blower?

Its got rectangular port now so I am guessing I would stick with that set up. Certainly would like to stick with fuel inection. Not a big fan of carbs. Off road world which I come from ditched them long ago.

I have a friend that has built all my motors and will build this one as well. So no mercruiser stuff too expensive for what you get in my eyes. Right now I run a little 347 stroker ford in my off road rig that is a crowd favorite where we race. Put that togther way way cheaper than a crate and it performs real nice.

I got low 70's on cool days with good chop. That was with a labbed 26 Bravo I. It had a great cruise but I always felt I was leaving a few mph on the table over some good 3 blades.

I agree about your FI comment. Your guy should be able to pull some good power out of a 540 the one of his FI setups.

Procharger claims 640 hp with 5 lbs of boost. I think that is way optimistic. I felt it was around 575 on a normal day.

CJmike
07-16-2008, 11:58 AM
When you talk about Tyler are you talking about this guy?
http://www.crockettmarineengines.com/

handfulz28
07-16-2008, 11:59 AM
Now what kind of power is a 502 with a blower?

I'm no fan of Merc as a holy grail, BUT it's hard to argue with the R&D they've done to be the largest supplier of factory high performance marine motors. That's why I like to use them as a proxy for what can be had.

The Merc 575sci and 600sci are blown 502s. The few guys that successfully re-tune ECUs on these motors will tell you the Mercs are very conservative.

Hedgehog, is Smitty AKA Articfriends on other boards? Not discounting all he's done with his motor(s), but didn't he have to work that MPI intake a lot to get it to work? If it's the same guy, didn't he get 1000hp with a blower through that intake? Amazing stuff, but a lot of effort to get that intake to feed those ci.

Oh yeah, FWIW, the AS&M/HP EFI intake will choke a 540. Probably why Tyler is working on an upgrade.

When you talk about Tyler are you talking about this guy?
http://www.crockettmarineengines.com/ (http://www.crockettmarineengines.com/)
Yup.

BigGrizzly
07-16-2008, 12:03 PM
Ithink the procharger will make above 600 hp with 5psi but not out of a completely stock motor. My 502 carb,has above 650, with 4.7 psi ande some mods-cam heads pistons and some other stuff. CMIs don't hurt either.

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm no fan of Merc as a holy grail, BUT it's hard to argue with the R&D they've done to be the largest supplier of factory high performance marine motors. That's why I like to use them as a proxy for what can be had.

The Merc 575sci and 600sci are blown 502s. The few guys that successfully re-tune ECUs on these motors will tell you the Mercs are very conservative.

Hedgehog, is Smitty AKA Articfriends on other boards? Not discounting all he's done with his motor(s), but didn't he have to work that MPI intake a lot to get it to work? If it's the same guy, didn't he get 1000hp with a blower through that intake? Amazing stuff, but a lot of effort to get that intake to feed those ci.

Oh yeah, FWIW, the AS&M/HP EFI intake will choke a 540. Probably why Tyler is working on an upgrade.

Yup.

You are correct on all accounts. I have heard the same about merc and their ECU tuning from two engine builders that have been into their tunes.

Yes, that is Articfriends and he worked his ass off.

Even blown, you have to do work on the intake to get big power. Mine made 945 hp at 9.3 lbs. The useable power is really 872.

Eddie Young uses a Holley EFI (with a single plane intake manifold)system with a MEFI 4 and gets big power on his N/A motors. His 540 makes 650 and his 600 makes 750. Both of these motors make well over their rated power.

handfulz28
07-16-2008, 01:14 PM
Eddie Young uses a Holley EFI (with a single plane intake manifold)system with a MEFI 4 and gets big power on his N/A motors. His 540 makes 650 and his 600 makes 750. Both of these motors make well over their rated power.

So those are YOUR pictures I just looked at on OSO? :shocking:
Incredible work.

These days I can do little more than read and dream. But I love the idea of using EFI stuff on carb intakes. I'd love to see someone do marine work with one of these: http://www.retrotekspeed.com/

mjw930
07-16-2008, 01:36 PM
Getting to 70 will take between 575 and 600 hp.

There were a number of Factory 1 class boats running 470HP HP500's in the upper '70's all day long in the late '90's without fancy bottoms or light weight layups. I can't imagine needing that much power to push a 27' boat to 70. What's that thing weigh?

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 01:38 PM
So those are YOUR pictures I just looked at on OSO? :shocking:
Incredible work.

These days I can do little more than read and dream. But I love the idea of using EFI stuff on carb intakes. I'd love to see someone do marine work with one of these: http://www.retrotekspeed.com/

Yes, that is my boat on OSO. I think that he did some nice work. We spent many hours bouncing ideas. It was kind of like having a house built. I really enjoyed the project.

Thanks for the compliment.

There was a point where the carb intake platform was looking like a better idea. The retrotekspeed idea looks good.

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 01:45 PM
There were a number of Factory 1 class boats running 470HP HP500's in the upper '70's all day long in the late '90's without fancy bottoms or light weight layups. I can't imagine needing that much power to push a 27' boat to 70. What's that thing weigh?

Donzi's F1 boat was a 27ZX twin step. It was sort of like Tex's and it was so light that it had chine walk problems. Tex seems to have a one of a kind setup and has discussed this with Donzi. Maybe he will chime in.

The boat probably weighs north of 7,000. The racing boats were much lighter.

Those numbers are about right. The step is good for 5-7 mph depending on how fast you go. Fasttrucker had a twin step with around 550 hp and he was pushing 75.

CJmike
07-16-2008, 03:04 PM
So to bring this back to the original question which displacement would be the best route to get 550-600 hp with stock driveabilty?

I know what my friends 550 hp 427 drives like and while it sounds cool probable not the ticket for the boat.

blackhawk
07-16-2008, 03:42 PM
So to bring this back to the original question which displacement would be the best route to get 550-600 hp with stock driveabilty?

I know what my friends 550 hp 427 drives like and while it sounds cool probable not the ticket for the boat.

Do you want to stay NA? If so I vote for the 540. Great platform and lots of people with experience with them. 600hp is an easy goal with a 540.

CJmike
07-16-2008, 04:12 PM
Naturally aspirated with the ability to go forced induction down the road.

So build everything with forged components and keep the compression ratio around 9 to 1. Then I could run a blower with a low PSI.

The Hedgehog
07-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Naturally aspirated with the ability to go forced induction down the road.

So build everything with forged components and keep the compression ratio around 9 to 1. Then I could run a blower with a low PSI.

I am partial to the 540. You get an easy 600+ hp then add boost and you can sling 800 with no problem.

blackhawk
07-16-2008, 07:32 PM
Naturally aspirated with the ability to go forced induction down the road.

So build everything with forged components and keep the compression ratio around 9 to 1. Then I could run a blower with a low PSI.

In that case I vote for the 540. :D

And I have talked to Smitty a few times and he is sharp as a razor! And always very helpful.

handfulz28
07-16-2008, 08:59 PM
Sounds like a 540 it is! Now you gotta let us know how you're going to build it.

Last Real Texan
07-16-2008, 09:41 PM
I have some first hand experience with Bill's old boat, You are going to need some seroius power for that rig to get into the 70's. I f you are going to build a new motor for it you need to factor in some things , If you are going to get into the boost zone eventually, you will need to build it with first class parts the first time around and not cut any corners along the bulid, it really does not cost a whole lot more to do it the best way when you are going from scratch , my suggestion is to go 540 easy to get 650 out of a N/a fuel injected 540 with the right cam, up front and build it with 9-9.5-1 CR to get some low end torque out of to get things moving until you get ino the boost, you will still be able to Supercharge it later but you will have to run a little less boost, 4-5 lbs, and get some real #'s a season or 2 after you get used to the boat handling and quirks, By the way that boat has absolutely no handling issues into the 70's it rides rock solid and straight. Some people may dis agree on the CR but it will work just use some good Aluminum heads and intercooled boost. Remember one thing going into this , you will spend twice what you think, take twice as long and it will cost even more if you do not do it right the first time around, Too many times on other projects have I decided to do it the quick way and only to see it was not enough and had to tear it down and do it again to get the goal I was looking for. you are going to need a minimum of 650 hp to get in the 70's in a solid way.
Food for thought and do a lot of research before doing this to avoid costly mistakes in the long run. Get a guy who knows marine HP or who knows someone he can reference ,and will get the right combination of parts to get the Hp AND reliabilty out of the project, good luck on it you have a nice boat and it will only get better with a 540 in it!
All this motor building talk has me wanting to start a build of my own.....Hmmmm a 572 EFI tall deck M-4 procharger motor is starting to sound really good right about now.....
Cj Mike enjoy the build it is a great process watching it all come together and keep us posted
Tex

BigGrizzly
07-17-2008, 08:15 AM
Hold it Hedg and Tex were saying EASY with a 540. One thing to remember the guys they have working on their motors are like the guys that work with me on mine, the are the best in the south east and nationally known. You don't come up with these guys every place in the country. these guys know each other and are better then most of the super guys you read about. They chose to remain in the shadows to keep the idiots away. I have seen some amazing stuff com out of this shop and go to some pretty high ranking people. When i asked " nobody knows you did the engines and these guys are just going to put their name on it" the answer was "so what, I know and thats really what counts!" The point is it isn't easy for everybody. Durability is also a premium. I have a mild procharged 502 with 690+ HP that is 8 years old and I use this boat. For these guys it is normal. So easy is depending on WHO is doing it. Do you see Warren Johnson advertising - he doesn't really have to or want to.

mjw930
07-17-2008, 12:45 PM
HH,

Wow, 7000 lbs, no wonder it takes that kind of HP. Most of the competitive F1 boats came in around 5000 - 5500 lbs, I think the minimum weight was in that range and they would flirt with making weight at every race. I got spoiled with my '96 Velocity 26, it was one of the first s-glass layups Steve did and although it wasn't lighter than the Kevlar he played around with, it held up better IMHO. I was 5500 lbs with a full cabin and ran low '80's with a 540HP 461 NA BBC, No steps, all motor :D

With regard to motor builders, I'm 100% in agreement with Griz and others. Find a motor guy with strong credentials in the MARINE high performance arena and press him hard for references. The big names aren't always the way to go, trust me. I've personally seen way to many "Big Name Builder" motors in my engine guys shop being "freshened up".... Many have gotten too big and no longer turn the wrenches themselves and that's where the problems start.

If you want a reference PM or email me, I don't want to use the forums for advertisements.

The Hedgehog
07-17-2008, 01:36 PM
HH,
Wow, 7000 lbs, no wonder it takes that kind of HP. Most of the competitive F1 boats came in around 5000 - 5500 lbs, I think the minimum weight was in that range and they would flirt with making weight at every race. I got spoiled with my '96 Velocity 26, it was one of the first s-glass layups Steve did and although it wasn't lighter than the Kevlar he played around with, it held up better IMHO. I was 5500 lbs with a full cabin and ran low '80's with a 540HP 461 NA BBC, No steps, all motor :D
With regard to motor builders, I'm 100% in agreement with Griz and others. Find a motor guy with strong credentials in the MARINE high performance arena and press him hard for references. The big names aren't always the way to go, trust me. I've personally seen way to many "Big Name Builder" motors in my engine guys shop being "freshened up".... Many have gotten too big and no longer turn the wrenches themselves and that's where the problems start.
If you want a reference PM or email me, I don't want to use the forums for advertisements.

You are absolutely right about the big name builders. I have seen a few of the same things.

Velocity makes a fast hull. No steps but a big pad.

mrfixxall
07-17-2008, 01:47 PM
Velocity makes a fast hull. No steps but a big pad..

Now you would have a bad azz boat if they combined the steps with that big azz pad:biggrin.:

mjw930
07-17-2008, 02:32 PM
Velocity makes a fast hull. No steps but a big pad..
Now you would have a bad azz boat if they combined the steps with that big azz pad:biggrin.:
Not to go way off topic but it's been experimented with (no one at Velocity will EVER admit to it so don't bother asking). If you look at a the bottom of most current air entrapment hulls you'll see a pad and probably a notched transom. The trick is getting the proper balance between air entrapment, lift and directional stability. Steve's design is an offshoot of Allison's basic design and uses a combination of pad, full length lifting strakes, reverse chines and a notched transom to minimize wetted surface while maintaining maneuverability.

FWIW, in the ventilated hull category I think the Shoal designed DDC Active Thunders are some of the best designed, large V-Bottomed offshore boats out there. I really like his designs.

http://www.activethunderboats.com/videos/37julythunder.wmv

Back to the point at hand, I still think the best bang for the buck is the GM Performance ZZ502. My engine guy marinizes these and does a few "tricks" to the top end and routinely produces 600HP / 600TQ motors that live VERY WELL in a marine environment and don't even come close to breaking the bank. He has a number of these running well past 500 hours.

Considering you start out with this for about $6800 you can see where it won't cost an arm and a leg to complete the project

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/images/12496963_large.jpg

mrfixxall
07-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Not to go way off topic but it's been experimented with (no one at Velocity will EVER admit to it so don't bother asking). If you look at a the bottom of most current air entrapment hulls you'll see a pad and probably a notched transom. The trick is getting the proper balance between air entrapment, lift and directional stability. Steve's design is an offshoot of Allison's basic design and uses a combination of pad, full length lifting strakes, reverse chines and a notched transom to minimize wetted surface while maintaining maneuverability.

FWIW, in the ventilated hull category I think the Shoal designed DDC Active Thunders are some of the best designed, large V-Bottomed offshore boats out there. I really like his designs.

http://www.activethunderboats.com/videos/37julythunder.wmv

Back to the point at hand, I still think the best bang for the buck is the GM Performance ZZ502. My engine guy marinizes these and does a few "tricks" to the top end and routinely produces 600HP / 600TQ motors that live VERY WELL in a marine environment and don't even come close to breaking the bank. He has a number of these running well past 500 hours. We dropped a couple of these into an old, tired, heavy Powerplay 33 and that boat has been keeping her owner happy for the last 5 years running well into the 90's.

Not to steal the trend!..i agree with the thunder line up,they originaly came from and were built on 1st ave in desplanes illinois by the a guy (ziggy) i knew and always admired his work..Before the name was thunder marine which he sold to a guy in florida..needless to say ziggy is now retired and still collecting royalties from what i understand :)

CJmike
07-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Leaning towards starting with a Dart or Merlin block. If I go 540 0r 565.

Crank:
I have had good luck with Eagle stuff in the past. But I agree with buying quality gets you a better long term motor.

Rods:
H-beam

Piston:
Leaning towards Mahle or JE

Not sure on heads yet. Thinking aluminum.

Roller camshaft not sure on specs. That is the big mystery.

Roller Rockers

But how much will I gain by going 540 as oppossed to 496. 44 cubic inches at 1 hp per cube. Looks like around 44 hp so let say a 496 is at a 50 hp disadvantage to a 540 or almost 70 to a 565. I can do a 496 with the block I currently have which save a few grand. :confused:

mrfixxall
07-17-2008, 07:22 PM
Leaning towards starting with a Dart or Merlin block. If I go 540 0r 565.

Crank:
I have had good luck with Eagle stuff in the past. But I agree with buying quality gets you a better long term motor.

Rods:
H-beam

Piston:
Leaning towards Mahle or JE

Not sure on heads yet. Thinking aluminum.

Roller camshaft not sure on specs. That is the big mystery.

Roller Rockers

But how much will I gain by going 540 as oppossed to 496. 44 cubic inches at 1 hp per cube. Looks like around 44 hp so let say a 496 is at a 50 hp disadvantage to a 540 or almost 70 to a 565. I can do a 496 with the block I currently have which save a few grand. :confused:

If you want to save some coin then look at cola cranks but stay away from the heavy stuff(eagle). a light weight crankshaft will make the bbc rev like a sbc..if it were me i were going to spend the money on a new block,crank,rods, pistons,heads and a roller valve train i would go as big as i can with out boaring it out to the max. we have had better luck with dart blocks then the merlin blocks,to many casting problems with merlin..i reccomend the 10.200 deck height.

The Hedgehog
07-17-2008, 10:58 PM
A number of good engine builders can spec out a cam. Tuning the EFI is kind of a bitch but worth it.

Crate stuff is ok but not toleranced for marine spec (and I mean the long block too). Crate stuff is fine for mild hp but will probably not be happy at real hp. Sure, many are getting away with 500 hp (maybe even 600) but I am talking about real power. Spank out a good 750 ponies on a crate in a marine application and you will need some luck keeping it together. I bet that most of the guys here that turn wrenches will tell you.

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 08:04 AM
My engine started out with one of the ZZ502 blocks mentioned above we took it apart before it was run fixed some stuff and threw the oil pan away. Ok so we used the block, crank(balanced it) and heads and redid them. It was as much work as if we bough the parts. Oh we finished the block too castings were pretty rough..

mjw930
07-18-2008, 09:04 AM
I suppose if you consider "Real HP" to be 750+ then of course a crate motor isn't going to live without some massaging but then when you're into this range of performance longevity takes a back seat regardless of preparation.

The 600/600 motors I'm talking about start out as the unassembled longblocks. They are massaged to make sure everything is 100%. They are fully marinized and are turn key motors that usually only require standard maintenance for their entire service life. They are EVERY BIT as good and reliable as a "Blue" motor and come brand new for roughly HALF the Merc price. He also does a 525 HP version that's a little cheaper because the internals are not massaged and it uses the factory cam. These are carburated motors but he has the expertise and ability to do EFI too, it just adds a few thousand to the price and there's typically little improvement in performance.

CJMike,

One word of advice, don't start putting pieces together until you talk with the guy you select to build your motor. He should have a combination of parts that he knows works together. You select an engine builder based on their quality and reputation. He's the pro, let him TELL YOU what parts need to go into the motor. If there are some parts that he says are interchangeable THEN you can start selecting which ones you want.

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 09:18 AM
One brief statement like 930 says. "The combination is the key". I hear Garry and Johnny say that every day. They keep experimenting but it doesn't always work.

CJmike
07-18-2008, 10:04 AM
Can a guy run the stock MPI set up on a tall deck block?

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Yes.

CJmike
07-18-2008, 11:39 AM
Without adapters?

mrfixxall
07-18-2008, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE=CJmike;458356]Without adapters?[/


no! you need .400,almost a 1/2 inch higher the adaptors work fine..

The Hedgehog
07-18-2008, 06:10 PM
I suppose if you consider "Real HP" to be 750+ then of course a crate motor isn't going to live without some massaging but then when you're into this range of performance longevity takes a back seat regardless of preparation.
The 600/600 motors I'm talking about start out as the unassembled longblocks. They are massaged to make sure everything is 100%. They are fully marinized and are turn key motors that usually only require standard maintenance for their entire service life. They are EVERY BIT as good and reliable as a "Blue" motor and come brand new for roughly HALF the Merc price. He also does a 525 HP version that's a little cheaper because the internals are not massaged and it uses the factory cam. These are carburated motors but he has the expertise and ability to do EFI too, it just adds a few thousand to the price and there's typically little improvement in performance.
CJMike,
One word of advice, don't start putting pieces together until you talk with the guy you select to build your motor. He should have a combination of parts that he knows works together. You select an engine builder based on their quality and reputation. He's the pro, let him TELL YOU what parts need to go into the motor. If there are some parts that he says are interchangeable THEN you can start selecting which ones you want.

Sounds like he is a nice program. Sounds like a good bang for the buck. No, 600 hp is nothing to sneeze at.

The 750 number came from the idea of starting with 600 and then adding a little boost. That is real hp!

I get a little warped down here. I have a friend that is doing a set of 1050 hp's and Eddie is building a set of 1,200's. Kind of like Mr Griz and those big Donavans he hangs out with. My 850 is small potatos.

The Hedgehog
07-18-2008, 06:13 PM
A big tall deck with an MPI!!!!

My warped self would love to see someone pull that off!

Last Real Texan
07-18-2008, 07:13 PM
A big tall deck with an MPI!!!!
My warped self would love to see someone pull that off!
Be patient grasshopper........

The Hedgehog
07-19-2008, 09:09 AM
Be patient grasshopper........

It is hard to be patient knowing that you, Sam and Rik are probably having secret discussions as expensive boxes are accumulating in your warehouse. :shocking:

Last Real Texan
07-19-2008, 09:56 AM
It is hard to be patient knowing that you, Sam and Rik are probably having secret discussions as expensive boxes are accumulating in your warehouse. :shocking:
Dont forget Mark as well, heading down on Monday to tune and bounce some ideas off of him.....you know me too well

BigGrizzly
07-19-2008, 10:29 AM
BTW, 930 is talking about Mark and his guys. Garry does the big FI motors. He has a believe it or not a fuel injected system that looks like a carburetor I call it a fuel injected carb. It uses a mototron ecm. He keeps threatening to put one on my boat. I hope he gets a burr under his saddle and tries to prove a point to me. I keep razzing him but he hasn't taken the bate yet. I am going to keep trying. The 540 he put it on did 850 Hp and idled like a stock 502 with an attitude. BTW it was the most beautiful motor I have ever seen, next to his own 383 with a 1071 on it. I am trying to find a picture of it.

The Hedgehog
07-20-2008, 07:53 AM
BTW, 930 is talking about Mark and his guys. Garry does the big FI motors. He has a believe it or not a fuel injected system that looks like a carburetor I call it a fuel injected carb. It uses a mototron ecm. He keeps threatening to put one on my boat. I hope he gets a burr under his saddle and tries to prove a point to me. I keep razzing him but he hasn't taken the bate yet. I am going to keep trying. The 540 he put it on did 850 Hp and idled like a stock 502 with an attitude. BTW it was the most beautiful motor I have ever seen, next to his own 383 with a 1071 on it. I am trying to find a picture of it.

I would like to see those.

CJmike
10-23-2008, 11:07 AM
What does evryone think of the crane 168731 camshaft? Seems like it is an OSO favorite.

MOP
10-23-2008, 07:37 PM
Was wondering when this "Skunk Werks" was going to surface again. SO! How big did you decide to go?

The Hedgehog
10-23-2008, 08:48 PM
Was wondering when this "Skunk Werks" was going to surface again. SO how big did you decide to go?

I have been dying to know myself. The Hedgehog is no longer full. Well maybe full from dinner and several glasses of wine!:pimp:

CJmike
10-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Not to big it seems. Will know next week for sure. Old motor comes out tomorrow. But at this point I am leaning towards a stroked 454. But if the block doesn't look good who knows then.

Pismo
10-24-2008, 05:29 AM
Bore is the limiting factor in making cubes so max it out. Go 4.50 or more bore, 502 base block. Anything can be stroked to the sky but start with the larger bore. Big cubes, big torque, NA, everything will be easier and reliable.

CJmike
10-24-2008, 07:26 AM
Doesn't seem likely that I will be stretching the cubic inches out over what the Gen VI 454 block can be stroked at this time. Unless something is wrong with the block. If something is wrong with the block then I will have to rethink it.

My goal is to stay with the MPI without a ton of messing around. The further you push the envelope the more you are going to have to play around with getting it sorted out. So to be safe I am looking at doing something pretty mild at this time.

Main point will be getting the motor back to running good and make good power. So today the motor comes out and depending on how that goes we might start stripping it down today as well. Inspect what is there and start making a list of what could be reused, what can't be reused, and what should be upgraded.

mrfixxall
10-24-2008, 09:47 AM
a 496 bt far is no slouch,dont bore it .060 over,just in case you have to bore the block in the future..a 489 is plenty of power if you get the rite combo..ck out this vid!! it even has a cast steel crank and iron heads..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJqQtG7u2yI

mrfixxall
10-24-2008, 10:10 AM
O BTW go with a 6.385 rod legnth,motor will build more torque with that rod and your cylinder heads will be the ticket on your power range,i wouldnt go any more then a 310 cc intake runner,the higher the cc in the intake runner the higher the rpm with that combo you will have to turn to make the power.

If you have a square port head they will work,you will have to have them flowed and use a 2.250 intake valve and stick with your inconel 1.880 exhaust valve..


as for camshafts im a isky fan,hes the god father of cams :)

SilverBack
10-24-2008, 01:13 PM
It seems to me that a 540 has a lot of advantages. I would not let the block hold me up if you are buying everything else. I started to go with a 540 when I built my engine and sold the rotating assembly and went back to the 502. I wish that I would have stayed with the 540. I will never be a better time to do it than now!!

CJmike
10-24-2008, 04:01 PM
Motor is out teardown begins next week.