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View Full Version : Crank Pumps revisited!



MOP
07-15-2008, 12:02 PM
Well as most of you know I swapped my belt driven pump for a crank pump due mostly to Georges prodding, my crank pump was new and only had 114 hours on it. The install went well except the bolts are smaller then the bores in the pump base, I did what I though was a very careful job of wrapping the bolts with Tflon tape until they fir the bores very snug. Fired it up and it pumped like a banshee, but it had a wiggle which in no way was I going to tolerate, I have one of the more expensive rotating assy's on this board and did not want 4lbs of pump dancing on the cranks tip. So off I went on a quest for bushings, sounds easy yeah right. I found rubber 1/2"X3/8" did not work still wiggled then found bronze bushings still N/G!! So this morning I got 1/2" brass stock and bored my own on my buds lathe, the 1/2" fit perfect but the bolts having thread full shank were a curly hair smaller then 3/8" that had to be the issue. Anyway new home made bushings in place engine running you can put your finger on the pump and only feel the chill of cold water running through the pump with -0- motion of any kind. Would I ever tear off a perfectly good belt pump NO WAY. The bronze pump that the CP replaced was off the engine in about 15 minutes and may have taken 20 to go back on, also I could change a belt without pulling all the hoses and bracket off the CP. My advice to anyone is ditch the idea of a crank pump, if not setup perfectly it could cause a harmonic in the engine and makes for a lot more work servicing belts.

There Ya go George I spoke my piece!!!!!!!!!

cutwater
07-15-2008, 12:08 PM
My question is why were the bolts smaller than the bores in the pump base? Was the pump you bought made for your application? You would think that if it was a kit for a specific application, it should be made to fit the bolts used in that app. But "you would think..." usually turns into "what were they thinking??" :wink:

gcarter
07-15-2008, 12:11 PM
I serviced my belts once on the Minx. It's easy. Don't remove the hoses. All that has to be done is remove the one bolt on the stabilizing bracket and the three bolts on the hub, change belts or whatever, and re-install the pump bolts.
Easy.:smash:

gcarter
07-15-2008, 12:18 PM
My question is why were the bolts smaller than the bores in the pump base? Was the pump you bought made for your application? You would think that if it was a kit for a specific application, it should be made to fit the bolts used in that app. But "you would think..." usually turns into "what were they thinking??" :wink:
There are pumps that fit very well. Look at;
http://www.marineexhaustmanifolds.com/rawwater.cfm
Take a look at the top Johnson pump. Give them a call and tell them what package you have. That's the price listed plus the stabilizing bracket.

BigGrizzly
07-15-2008, 04:10 PM
I personally would have used nylon bushings or shoulder bolts if it were me, but I have a lathe and mill in my shop. As for the belt replacement the first thing is you have one less belt sooo that is a plus. Next how many times do you have to change a belt? Finally, I carry all replacement belts for my engine with me, Do you guys and tools to put them on with.

MOP
07-15-2008, 07:09 PM
There are pumps that fit very well. Look at;
http://www.marineexhaustmanifolds.com/rawwater.cfm
Take a look at the top Johnson pump. Give them a call and tell them what package you have. That's the price listed plus the stabilizing bracket.

George that is the exact Johnson pump I have, honest it takes longer to pull and reinstall then my belt driven did. If need be I will part the bracket and pull the hoses rather then pull the pump off the crank quicker and far less complicated then being near upside down undoing 3 allen heads along with bushing etc. True the belts don't go very often but when one does you have to go through the drill I like simplicity, I will run it for bit and decide if it is going to stay on the engine or not. For the time being the belt driven one is stashed along with the under drive pulley set.

Shoulder bolts would be a better but I live in the sticks, I will have to look in my Totally Stainless catalogue if I decide to keep it. Not sure why they do not supply the right bolts or bushings in the kit, they give you new bolts and washers but 3/8" is some sloppy in a 1/2" hole. The drive plate is drilled for several apps but I don not know of anything with 1/2" and 5/6" crank bolts that would use that size pump. For now it is perfect with -0- wiggle so time will tell!

Conquistador_del_mar
07-15-2008, 07:11 PM
Well as most of you know I swapped my belt driven pump for a crank pump due mostly to Georges prodding, my crank pump was new and only had 114 hours on it. The install went well except the bolts are smaller then the bores in the pump base, I did what I though was a very careful job of wrapping the bolts with Tflon tape until they fir the bores very snug. Fired it up and it pumped like a banshee, but it had a wiggle which in no way was I going to tolerate, I have one of the more expensive rotating assy's on this board and did not want 4lbs of pump dancing on the cranks tip. So off I went on a quest for bushings, sounds easy yeah right. I found rubber 1/2"X3/8" did not work still wiggled then found bronze bushings still N/G!! So this morning I got 1/2" brass stock and bored my own on my buds lathe, the 1/2" fit perfect but the bolts having thread full shank were a curly hair smaller then 3/8" that had to be the issue. Anyway new home made bushings in place engine running you can put your finger on the pump and only feel the chill of cold water running through the pump with -0- motion of any kind. Would I ever tear off a perfectly good belt pump NO WAY. The bronze pump that the CP replaced was off the engine in about 15 minutes and may have taken 20 to go back on, also I could change a belt without pulling all the hoses and bracket off the CP. My advice to anyone is ditch the idea of a crank pump, if not setup perfectly it could cause a harmonic in the engine and makes for a lot more work servicing belts.

There Ya go George I spoke my piece!!!!!!!!!

For what it is worth, I have installed a few cam driven pumps (Magnaflow), and I have never had a problem with them. It is very easy to change out or inspect the impeller, too. I once installed a crank driven alternator and a cam driven water pump on one of the GT21s that I restored with a 450HP/454CID - no belts. My 600HP Eliminator Dayona has a cam driven Magnaflow on it and overheating has never been a problem. Just curious why I have not read about others using the Magnaflows. Bill

gcarter
07-15-2008, 08:06 PM
George that is the exact Johnson pump I have, honest it takes longer to pull and reinstall then my belt driven did. If need be I will part the bracket and pull the hoses rather then pull the pump off the crank quicker and far less complicated then being near upside down undoing 3 allen heads along with bushing etc. True the belts don't go very often but when one does you have to go through the drill I like simplicity, I will run it for bit and decide if it is going to stay on the engine or not. For the time being the belt driven one is stashed along with the under drive pulley set.

Shoulder bolts would be a better but I live in the sticks, I will have to look in my Totally Stainless catalogue if I decide to keep it. Not sure why they do not supply the right bolts or bushings in the kit, they give you new bolts and washers but 3/8" is some sloppy in a 1/2" hole. The drive plate is drilled for several apps but I don not know of anything with 1/2" and 5/6" crank bolts that would use that size pump. For now it is perfect with -0- wiggle so time will tell!
I know mine bolted right on...no issues. The one time I changeed a belt, I pulled the pump simply because I didn't want any water in my nice shiny bilge.

BigGrizzly
07-16-2008, 09:52 AM
Just to start trouble, has anybody ever used an electric raw water pump?:popcorn:

BigGrizzly
07-16-2008, 12:09 PM
Just got off the phone with a good friend about the cam drive water pump. In a boat application for cam chain durability he is against the idea in a HP pleasure boat. In my application it interferes with other things. He did say they were pretty reliable pumps. Something about the same parts as the crank drive pumps.

Conquistador_del_mar
07-16-2008, 12:32 PM
Just got off the phone with a good friend about the cam drive water pump. In a boat application for cam chain durability he is against the idea in a HP pleasure boat. In my application it interferes with other things. He did say they were pretty reliable pumps. Something about the same parts as the crank drive pumps.

The cam driven pump would definitely add an extra strain to the timing chain, but I have not personally had a double roller chain let go in the ones I have installed since about 1987. I sort of figured that many would worry about that load and that must be the reason more are not used. I can only say that I have never had a problem with them, and I have been very pleased with the performance, looks, ease of location, and durability. I guess I should be a Glenwood Magnaflow rep - lol. Bill

gcarter
07-16-2008, 02:09 PM
Just to start trouble, has anybody ever used an electric raw water pump?:popcorn:
I think it would require a lot of electrical power to drive a rubber vane positive displacement pump....lots of friction and hysteryses.(sp?)

BigGrizzly
07-16-2008, 05:52 PM
I have never broken either roller or hyvo chain. However I have streached both kinds to retard the cam enough to be noticeable and have worn out some sprockets:eek!:

TXDONZI
07-16-2008, 09:47 PM
Why not use a cam shaft gear drive when using the Magnaflow pump. That is what I'm using on the BBF - 429/AQ280PT project. Thinking about going crank driven Alt. but need to drop the engine in and check for room first. I'll probably go with a electric Hyd. pump for the steering.

If the all works out at a later date I would like to upgrade to a DPX-A like Forest did on his Magnum.

BigGrizzly
07-17-2008, 09:08 AM
Yes you could do a gear drive. there are other issues too. anyway I love my teleflex electric hydraulic steering. One finger at WFO. I would do it again in a heart beat.

maddad
07-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Those electric power steering units are a great idea, and work very well. Make sure your sitting down when you get to cost part.:shocking:

gcarter
07-17-2008, 07:16 PM
I'm fascinated by this;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hydraulic-power-steering-pump-Hot-rod-electric-Custom_W0QQitemZ260263846843QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em260263846843&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
Take a look at the video. If it works on that old Olds, then it should have the capacity to run one of our steering systems.....
Price is interesting too.

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 07:54 AM
Gee that pumps electric motor must be at least 25 horse power:wink: gee I guess i was wrong about how much power it takes to power power steering pumps:nilly: The pump comes off a Renault Cleio. and it is a pretty hot car in Europe.

gcarter
07-18-2008, 08:03 AM
Gee that pumps electric motor must be at least 25 horse power:wink: gee I guess i was wrong about how much power it takes to power power steering pumps:nilly: The pump comes off a Renault Cleio. and it is a pretty hot car in Europe.
Randy, I thought you'd get a kick out of that!!!:propeller:
But like I said, it's interesting and reasonably priced. Might be worth investigating.

maddad
07-18-2008, 08:06 AM
The pump comes off a Renault Cleio. and it is a pretty hot car in Europe.
Randy, do you think that pump would do the same job as the teleflex unit?

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 08:07 AM
I got some feelers out for that hope they pan out. These are my kind of projects instead of the fiberglass under my finger nails.:wink: Still thinking on your proposal.

BigGrizzly
07-18-2008, 08:19 AM
The pretty little girl's Daddy,I think the pump should be as effective as the Teleflex unit. Remember I put the whole Teleflex system on my boat, because I knew it works flawlessly. If I can really get that pump, when $ become available I will try it on the Criterion. If and when I do I will post a complete thread on it. Some day I WILL have a beltless motor. Not because of HP gain just because I don't like changing belts:(. I can always fall back on the Teleflex unit because it is a no brainier. Honda was on one of the design portions of it and I know how good it really is and it really is good. BTW you were going to e-mail me a picture of here on your Donzi. is your camera broken?:wink: