Packard 4M-2500's for sale...

[gcarter]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PACKARD-V12-4M-2500-W14-MARINE-ENGINE-PT-BOAT-WW2-ERA_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em14Q2el1318Q QhashZitem230269745556QQitemZ230269745556

Can you believe someone's been storing them outside?????
Would be some great parts engines if ya wanted to build a copy of "Pardon Me".

[DonziJon]

George: Carburators missing. Intake manifolds missing. Looks like a fabricated 2 into 1 exhaust lashup this side of the supercharger. The pictures look like this seller "might" be Harpers in Meridith, NH. Will have to go look at their website and have a look. They always have pictures. The last I heard..and that was a few years ago, 4M-2500s could be had "New Surplus" for $5K in the crate. Don't know how true this would be today.

Harper brokered a varnished mahogany speedboat (38' maybe?) custom built to carry the Big Packard a couple of years ago. It was very nicely done. The engine was Red and the boat name was "Miss Packard". The owner made an appearence at the Wolfeboro Antique Race Boat thingy a few years ago and putted up near the docks but didn't stop. John

http://www.harperboats.com/

EDIT: No Packards Listed.

[DonziJon]

:lookaroun: :lookaroun: :lookaroun: Nobody cares about old Packards. :nilly::nilly::nilly: Very Sad. Would anyone on this board be familiar with the Packard !M-2500? 1600 HP. Only George and I know. Oh: BTW: That was in 1932. John :hangum:

[gcarter]

Here's a picture John wanted me to post.....
Four, count 'em, four, 2500 CI V-12 Packard engines......not exactly the ones they used in the WW-II PT boats, but impressive none the less.....
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37236&d=1216005325

[cutwater]

Wow... that's cool. I would love to pick up these Packards if I wasn't so far away. How hard is it to find parts like the carbs and intake manifolds for these?

Not to hijack the thread, but have you guys seen "They Were Expendable"? One of my favorite movies of all time. Based around the PT Boat crews.

[McGary911]

Here's a picture John wanted me to post.....
Four, count 'em, four, 2500 CI V-12 Packard engines......not exactly the ones they used in the WW-II PT boats, but impressive none the less.....


Wow, I think I just heard my gas card cry.

Very cool.

[DonziJon]

Thanks George for posting that picture for me. One of these days I'll have to learn how to post pictures myself. :wink:

A little bit about the engines and the boat:

The boat was/is a 38 foot single step runaboat.. technically I guess the step makes it a hydroplane. "Miss America X", originally owned and built by Gar Wood. (1932). The engines (4) were "Special" Packard IM-2500s Pre-Dating the 4M-2500s that George found on eBay.

2500 CI V-12s, 1600 HP each. Each has a "Roots" type supercharger on the front, differing from the centrifigal type SC found on the 4Ms in the PT Boats. The boat is Twin Screw with the engines connected in tandem.... back to back. The front engines are mounted conventionally, with the tailshaft aft. The rear engines are mounted backwards with the tailshaft facing foreward. In between the prop shaft flanges is a transmission, with the Final driveshaft on each side dropping out the bottom of the transmission and extending out the back of the boat. Essentially, the starboard and port engine pairs, each act as ONE.

The props were Surface Piercing and there is ONE rudder... mounted about 30% aft of the BOW. In those days, the fuel was 130 octane AvGas. Today, the 4Ms still running use 100LL AvGas. (Same as a Cessna)

In 1933 Gar Wood set a World Water speed record on the St. Clair River at 124.17 MPH which stood for five years. Note: This boat was used for "Unlimited" around the buoys racing the rest of the time.

As mentioned above, the engines were "Special", and were designed, built and owned by Packard. Gar Wood had the superchargers, and I think the transmissions built at his own expence. I'm not sure, but I think Allison may have had something to do with it.

After Gar Wood... and the boat retired, the engines went back to Packard where they...to this date, cannot be "Accounted For", and have never been seen since. The SCs still exist.

The original boat still exists and has (4) Packard 4M-2500s installed, only TWO of which would drive the boat because there are no tandom transmissions. I have not heard whether the boat has ever been in the water under it's current configuration. John

[gcarter]

If you look at John's picture carefully, you'll see there're two Roots blowers on each engine....one per bank. At one time I knew who made the blowers and carbs, and I could still probably dig up the info.
Remember, Packard's engineering manager, Jesse Vincent and E.J. Hall of Hall Scott Motor Car Co. designed the Liberty engine in 4 or 5 days in a hotel in Washington DC in about 1916.
With that experience, Packard started building larger aircraft engines towards the end of WW-I. One of these aircraft engines, the 1A-2500, flew in a number of aircraft, but over a period of time, Packard discovered there was a larger market for marine engines of this type. Also, the 1A-2500 didn't make a very good aircraft engine. They also built an X-24 based on a slightly smaller engine, but it was also not a very good idea.
The main problem w/this engine, the fact it dated from the second decade of the 20th century, was it had individual cylinders, each w/its own cooling jacket. This fact made it an unusually long engine w/o any way to rectify it. The 6 cylinder Gold Cup engine's archetecture was the same.
It was up to Curtis to develop their D-12 with two 6 cylinder banks cast en-bloc to solve the length problem. The Curtis D-12's were so successful, it terrified R-R into starting their own similar development program or end up losing their engine production lead in Great Britain.

[DonziJon]

I've been Re-looking at "Packards At Speed" (Robert J. Neal.) I suspect George has been doing the same. He picked up on something that I had not noticed. The IM-2500s in "Miss America X" had TWO blowers on each engine.

Also: The blowers were Schwitzer-Cummins blowers. For you motor heads on this forum: They were driven at 2.25 times engine speed. The boost was 7 PSI which gave 1600 HP at 2800 RPM. The Carbs were Holley duplex downdrafts. The transmission was Gar Wood designed and built.

The gearbox was a 1:2.95 step up gearbox. I LOVE this stuff. :cool: John

[gcarter]

Actually, I was sitting in my office and wrote that from recollections.......
In fact, I summarized two or three books, which I'm sure I own. So, any one reading my post just saved himself at least $200.00.

[gcarter]

BTW, one of the gearboxes was for sale on eBay recently.

[DonziJon]

One of Georges 4M-2500 Packards will burn 100 GPH @ 2000 RPM. (100 Octane LL). :smash: :nilly: John

[DonziJon]

George has "Recollections". I have a Blank Space. :hangum: John

[DonziJon]

SOLD: $2225.

[gcarter]

After Gar Wood... and the boat retired, the engines went back to Packard where they...to this date, cannot be "Accounted For", and have never been seen since.
John, I think I know what happened to them....in the last year, I bought a couple of books about a legendary rivalry between two marine industrialists in Great Britain. Peter Du Cane, a gifted, well born, gentleman and sportsman who in about 1930 bought Vosper in Southhampton where he used his connections to get a good number of government contracts, and build a number of speed record breaking boats...like sir Malcolm Campbells Bluebird and Bluebird II, and John Cobbs Crusader. When it looked like GB would be at war, Du Cane started developing some Motor Torpedo Boats for the British Government to analize and hopefully buy. They were powered with Isotta Fraschini 1000 HP engines, which unfortunately disappeared when Musolini went with Hitler.
About the same time, Hubert Scott-Payne, who had started the British Power Boat Company in the '20's, was vying for the same government monies. Scott-Payne had from the beginning of this quest, been in contact w/Packard because no other engines existed. They were in negotiations since about 1935-6. Packard wanted to start production on suitable engines based on the four Wood engines, but wanted a very large sum of money to start production. Remember, this was in the middle of the depression. The GB government wasn't forthcoming w/any funds, partly because Scott-Payne didn't play well in the British Old Boy network. Over a period of time, the US Navy started showing some interest. Scott-Payne set up a plant out side of Montreal and started producing boats there.
I suspect the four Wood engines were disassembled for re-engineering and were discarded. Afterall, at this time they were completely outdated and were never designed for production.

[DonziJon]

George: You keep making me re-read everything I already knew before I forgot it. :bonk: I'm re-reading a reprint of a book called "Speed Boat Kings" by a contemporary of Gar Woods. His name was J. Lee Barrett and the book was originally published in 1939. Barrett was a member of various syndicates that sponsored raceboats and racing..one being the "Miss Detroits", and deals with racing in Detroit ie. the Gold Cup and Harmsworth races..

What is interesting to me, and I've never seen this anywhere, other than this book: The "Miss America X" Packards were 1900 HP each. (Total 7600 HP). All of Woods competitors, Kaye Don, Miss Marion Carstairs, Hubert Scott Payne, etc are mentioned in detail....race by race. A book well worth looking for. Unlike the Packard Books, this one won't break the bank. I think it was less than $20...20 years ago?

The reprint was "Sponsored By" by the "Historical Society of Michigan" in 1986 and published by "Hardscrabble Books." John

[gcarter]

George: You keep making me re-read everything I already knew before I forgot it. :bonk: I'm re-reading a reprint of a book called "Speed Boat Kings" by a contemporary of Gar Woods. His name was J. Lee Barrett and the book was originally published in 1939. Barrett was a member of various syndicates that sponsored raceboats and racing..one being the "Miss Detroits", and deals with racing in Detroit ie. the Gold Cup and Harmsworth races..
What is interesting to me, and I've never seen this anywhere, other than this book: The "Miss America X" Packards were 1900 HP each. (Total 7600 HP). All of Woods competitors, Kaye Don, Miss Marion Carstairs, Hubert Scott Payne, etc are mentioned in detail....race by race. A book well worth looking for. Unlike the Packard Books, this one won't break the bank. I think it was less than $20...20 years ago?
The reprint was "Sponsored By" by the "Historical Society of Michigan" in 1986 and published by "Hardscrabble Books." John
I don't think I believe that number except for a short time running "fuel", or "dope" as it was called in aircraft circles. I doubt if it would produce that for a whole race.
The 5M-2500 produced at the end of the war were rated at 1800 HP, but it was an almost completely different engine.
BTW John, there's a signed copy on eBay for $500.00....I probably won't buy that copy.

[DonziJon]

George: I just looked at Amazon.com for the book. I can't believe it..$350. Rediculous. I'm going to be Rich.:smash: You jogged my memory again with the "Dope" comment. I'm about half way through the book and I had noticed the term "Benzol" used with respect to fuel. Later it mentioned gasoline and I thought Barrett was just mixing up the terms. Maybe you're right. "Benzole" used to be mixed with gasoline and is highly carcinigenic.