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View Full Version : Is There Hydraulic Steering For Kings?



Dr. Dan
07-07-2008, 02:41 PM
:doh::angel:OK - So after alot of thought - it appears that I may seriously consider keeping the King Cobra Drive because of its incredible performance and reliabilty and handling on the 22.

So I know Latham will build me a System for about $7500 - other than that option - is it possible to have a Bracket Designed & Fabricated and then use an existing System on the Market?

Or will I end up with Worlds most expensive non-production drive?

I'll Grab the Popcorn and listen to a few comments from the Gallery here.:popcorn:

Doc of Resurection of the King :worthy:

gcarter
07-07-2008, 02:49 PM
Yeah, a good fab shop can make you a bracket. Shouldn't cost a lot either, as long as you don't want it polished. Go with powdercoat instead.
I would guess;
$300-$500 in materials, maybe less
$200 for design
$500 for fab (water cutting) and welding
Some of you are a lot more up on this than I am, so chime in.

Is a polished finish that important? Or can someone just grind the welds and clean it up in general?
Powdercoating is cheap.

jvcobra
07-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Unless someone on here posts a commercially available set-up I'll probably be tackling this project this winter. I plan to buy a bravo set-up and making something to mount on the King. That way if I ever have to change drives I can retain what I have. Design and fabrication won't be a problem, just time is the issue.

HallJ
07-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Post a pic of the King Cobra drive.

This will give some clues to where you could mount the bracket.
I just finished up a custom system for a Volvo 270.


Jeff

The Hedgehog
07-07-2008, 04:26 PM
That would be a great addition. The KC is a beast!

Next on deck.....a KC shorty:popcorn:

roadtrip se
07-07-2008, 04:31 PM
Wouldn't it be cheaper to shop distributers for Latham and get the best price you can on the best system on the market? $7500 sounds really high, even with custom fab involved.

Especially, when you start weighing the costs of going to a new drive and transom assembly to replace the KC and then putting steering on it. Latham seems pretty cheap in comparsion then.

Alternative might be Marine Machine. They rigged a custom wing plate for Gero's Blackhawk, got his approval with a complete set of mockup pictures before fabricating it, and shipped a system that fit perfectly without ever seeing the boat. It wasn't $7500, either.

Plenty of options out there....including our own Madpoodle who happens to be a distributor of the Latham stuff. There is a way.

Feeling gritty...

mjw930
07-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Give Paul Everett @ Everett Performance a call or drop him an email. They have been the fabricators and OEM for a number of the "name" systems on the street and make a product that's IMHO is easily an equal to anything Latham makes. Marine Machine and Imco are decent systems but not engineered to the level of the Zeiger system or built to the quality of either Zieger or Latham IMHO.

Paul Everett
419-621-7770
Paul@EverettPerformance.com

http://www.everettperformance.com/

BTW, if you're looking for a little "BLING" these things will burn your retinas on a sunny day :D

http://www.everettperformance.com/images/productpics/TrimTabs-LG.gif

blackhawk
07-07-2008, 05:15 PM
The only thing you should need to fab would be the wing plate correct? How bout looking at the XS Performance system and then having a local shop fab you a wing plate. Or see if XS would do it with your measurements. I know they had excellent prices on their stuff a few years ago.

I think I paid $3200 for my WPM steering for my blackhawk.

BigGrizzly
07-07-2008, 05:26 PM
I worked at Honda QC for years and I am going to disagree with the IMCO Steering designed products they are every bit as good as anyone else, and in some cases better. One thing everyone seems to use the char lyn pumps. I have an IMCO and it is great. none of the ones we sold have ever had a problem. I have over 690 hp and we also have them on twin 1,200 packages without an issue. I personally feel Most Brands are very good. There are some I would not have on my boat. I will not discuss that here. So Doc, get a bracket made and the Brand kit of your choice and you will be fine.

blackhawk
07-07-2008, 05:38 PM
I agree, steering isn't rocket science!

Hell, for $500 you could pry go to Tractor Supply and buy everything. It just wouldn't be pretty! :D

The Hedgehog
07-07-2008, 06:50 PM
Man those tabs are abolutely hot! Do you know how much they will set you back?




Give Paul Everett @ Everett Performance a call or drop him an email. They have been the fabricators and OEM for a number of the "name" systems on the street and make a product that's IMHO is easily an equal to anything Latham makes. Marine Machine and Imco are decent systems but not engineered to the level of the Zeiger system or built to the quality of either Zieger or Latham IMHO.

Paul Everett
419-621-7770
Paul@EverettPerformance.com

http://www.everettperformance.com/

BTW, if you're looking for a little "BLING" these things will burn your retinas on a sunny day :D

http://www.everettperformance.com/images/productpics/TrimTabs-LG.gif

Greg K
07-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Like you I have given it some thought too. Even came up with some sketches of a wingplate bracket and how it should be done. A little trimming to the plastic side covers is needed, four 1/2" longer studs for the drive and the wingplate is attached to the same studs as the drive. Any of the manufacturer's rams could be used to attach to the wingplate. Plumb and add a helm. Like everything else, just a matter of time.

MOP
07-07-2008, 07:41 PM
Like you I have given it some thought too. Even came up with some sketches of a wingplate bracket and how it should be done. A little trimming to the plastic side covers is needed, four 1/2" longer studs for the drive and the wingplate is attached to the same studs as the drive. Any of the manufacturer's rams could be used to attach to the wingplate. Plumb and add a helm. Like everything else, just a matter of time.

I went a bit deeper with my machinist buddy, it would be very hard to use the mounting studs as they are pocketed unlike Merc which can be used very easily. Attaching directly to the drive seems to be the only option. We even thought of using a tie bar bracket at the ram ends but the steering ends up being way to low for dual ram but would be acceptable for a single ram setup.

BERTRAM BOY
07-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Phil,
Seriously, Heli Coil ? For hydraulic steering?

You are kidding right?

blackhawk
07-07-2008, 08:19 PM
Phil,
Seriously, Heli Coil ? For hydraulic steering?
You are kidding right?

If there is plenty of meat why not? Most Bravo wingplates are mounted on 4 3/8" studs!

MOP
07-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Yeah why not!!! I near peed my pants laughing seeing a comment like that!!!
Having worked on aircraft and many marine items I know one heck of a lot better!!! Rather then write a dissertation of my own I did a very simple search.
This may enlighten a few!
The need for Helicoil arose over sixty years back when the aviation industry, designing larger and heavier airplanes, had to utilize lighter raw materials for their production.
At first, thread inserts were used for repair of damaged or stripped threads, subsequently due to repeated thread failure, the inserts were installed in original manufacture of engine and other components to ensure protection against repeated thread failure.
Today, Helicoil inserts are used in the original equipment manufacture of such diversified products as aircraft, aerospace, automobiles, motorcycles, tractors, aluminum parts such as heat exchangers, power generation equipment and turbines, satellite and remote sensing devices, radar and telecommunication equipment, diesel fuel injection equipment, medical engineering and industries making component assemblies of soft metals, composite alloys, polymers, etc. Many industries making high technology products that require to perform safely and efficiently under extreme conditions use Helicoil also to salvage the scrapped components.
Why Use Helicoil in Original Equipment
1. Create stronger and longer lasting threads in soft metal component
Helicoil inserts are made from 18-8 grade cold rolled stainless steel having tensile strength ranging from 1,50,000-2,00,000 PSI, hardness between 43-50 HRc which gives a better description of how Helicoil inserts can withstand a lot of assembly stress besides creating a stronger thread in weak materials.
Helicoil in stainless steel can be safely used in continuos operating temperatures up to 35degree C and occasional peak temperature of 425 degree C. Materials like Inconel and Nimonic alloys for higher temperature conditions are also available.
The finish of normal tapped hole is observed to be 8 times rougher than the finish of Helicoil insert. This is because wire is cold rolled in multiple stages to a very tight tolerance and finish and thereby providing maximum surface contact area, greater clamping action and minimum friction between bolt and female thread flank.
2. Helicoil is Anti-Corrosive & Non-Magnetic
Made of 18-8 grade cold rolled stainless steel & manufacturing process ensuring non-austenitic properties, it provides a better resistance to corrosion under extreme atmospheric conditions and operational environments available to an equipment assembly.
3. Helicoil reduces bolt failure, breaking and thread stripping
The possible causes of bolt failure and breaking or thread stripping are over torque, pitch angle errors, progressive pitch errors, high stress conditions and continuous vibrations.
Without Helicoil, it has been observed that in a normal thread assembly a bolt is subjected to an average tightening load of more than 70% over first two threads near to its collar or over a few threads finding a proper surface contact.
The conditions even get worse when normal machined threads are associated with threads having pitch errors and above adverse conditions. Helicoil stretches itself to compensate for pitch angle errors and progressive pitch errors thereby providing a better surface contact and more even load distribution to prevent the bolt failures.
4. Helicoil has a "designed-in" radial & axial elasticity
This allows the shearing load to be transformed into favorable hoop stress or radial load towards the full length of the insert. With result the load gets more evenly transformed over the entire length of the threads of a bolt, thus bolt breaking and thread shearing is significantly reduced.
Helicoil-A Gift to Designers
The above compensation and even load distribution features allow a superior reliability of assembly and without compromising on performance allows the designers to choose a bolts of lower strength, bolt of alternate metals, bolt having lesser length, creating possibility of lower torque requirements for soft metals, strengthening components having less wall thickness. Helicoil inserts are also available with a locking coil for thread locking of screws and bolts to prevent loosening due to heavy or continuous vibrations. Unlike the other methods used for thread locking, the locking type Helicoil is reusable for several bolt opening and tightening cycles.
Helicoils are also available in a variety of materials such as beryllium copper, phosphorus bronze, Inconel X-750, Nimonic 90, etc, with or without special plating and coating like cadmium, silver, dry film lubricants, etc.
Helicoil is Superior to Threaded Bush/plain Bush
Threaded bushes are wound inside the threaded hole like a fastener and plain bushes are press fitted in to a hole. Some bushes may be available with extra locking features. The problem normally encountered with bush is the tendency of getting loose, during bolt tightening or opening cycle, due to vibrations, impacts, stress wear and creep factor, in some cases due to differential heat expansion ratio of bush and original component as co-efficient of heat expansion varies between two different metals.
Moreover, once a bush gives away, the next step is to go in for a larger hole. Bushes being thicker also reduce the remainder wall thickness of a component thus making a component weaker.
Use of Helicoil eliminates most of the given problems as it remains in a compressed state inside the threaded hole and holds tightly to the wall despite variable heat expansion, vibrations and high impact conditions. Helicoil doesnt get loose by repeated tightening or opening of bolt. The Helicoil is installed by a tool which compresses it at First to get installed in a threaded hole after which it sits tightly against the thread flanks, the only way it can be taken out is by using a tool which reduces it in diameter during extraction.
Such phenomenon of reduction of Helicoil diameter may never take place while tightening or loosening of bolts. Also, the worn out Helicoil can be replaced by a new one without making any changes to the pre-threaded hole.
This is why such a reliable technology is preferred by aeronautic and aerospace industries where products are subject to most extreme vibration and temperature conditions and not to forget that many human lives and billions of dollars are always at stake.
Why use Helicoil for Thread Repair & Maintenance
· To achieve all above beneficial features and reliability of assembly
· Helicoil is an effective, economical and quick time saving solution for most of the thread repairing needs of a workshop and small user to a large-scale industry.
· Depend less on skilled expertise, cut on outsourcing repairs, reduce equipment down time and avoid expensive conventional methods in practice.
· Helicoil is an easy to use good technology and you could do it yourself at a low cost.
Posted : 8/12/2005

blackhawk
07-07-2008, 08:41 PM
Hey Phil I'll give the short version.

1. A helicoil is stronger than just drilling and tapping.
2. There are many other benifits to using a helicoil.

:D

BERTRAM BOY
07-07-2008, 08:44 PM
For a non-moving part like a cylinder head torqued to spec...fine.

With constantly variable shear load? No thanks.

Actually, Bravo wing plates are mounted with 7/16 studs.

blackhawk
07-07-2008, 08:52 PM
For a non-moving part like a cylinder head torqued to spec...fine.
With constantly variable shear load? No thanks.
Actually, Bravo wing plates are mounted with 7/16 studs.

Yep, my bad. My point was there isn't a lot holding a wing plate on so a helicoil is a good idea IMO.

BERTRAM BOY
07-08-2008, 07:42 AM
Phil,
I'm sorry for being a wise !@#$.

My point was that there are much better choices than Heli-Coils.


http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/aerospace/catalog/pdf/Insert_bro_single_pages.pdf

gcarter
07-08-2008, 07:53 AM
OK, so here's an idea.
Fab the bracket so that it's based on a spacer plate between the drive and gimbal housing. It might need longer fasteners and drive shaft, but otherwise it may be do-able.

MOP
07-08-2008, 08:00 AM
No prob Cliff, the point is Dan has very few options for attaching any type of bracket. The Helicoil idea came from my machinist saying it would be much better then just relying on the casting to hold threads. The side shift King may not be doable. Single ram attaching where a tie bar goes is doable on either drive. I may have a sketch of the tie bar mount mod that holds it stable if Dan thinks he may want to go that way.

Phil

glashole
07-08-2008, 08:16 AM
I don't think the looks of the unit would really matter to Danny would they??

my vote would be to get the TSC stuff and paint it all with a chrome paint

not the cheap stuff but rather the good spray can stuff

keep in mind the good paint is going to set you back another $5-8 when you are budgeting


Shea

BigGrizzly
07-08-2008, 10:36 AM
Phil, thats not fair- like me your old and that peeing is a now normal function when least expected.
My TRS has a spacer like George states.
As for Heili- Coil it has become a generic word. there are hundreds out there that do the same function. Some require bigger holes then others. BTW All the old VOLVO drives came that way from the factory. They use to be Monell(SP) now they seam to be SS. I would do all my aluminum race heads and engines first because of repeated tear downs. the added advantage of increased torque figures on certain cam towers was an advantage, a weak point at high RPMS.
As for pretty I am sure Doc likes bling, look at his beautiful boat and his Donzi stuff. I know it can be done and not real expensively for a wing plate. Call Brownie at Stainless Marine he may have a drawing or can refer you to a good party. Also Brett Mays may be able to help, since he designed the Mayfair steering systems and was the first to do the Black Hawk drives. I believe he still works out of Harding Marine.

roadtrip se
07-08-2008, 11:50 AM
I don't think the looks of the unit would really matter to Danny would they??

my vote would be to get the TSC stuff and paint it all with a chrome paint

not the cheap stuff but rather the good spray can stuff

keep in mind the good paint is going to set you back another $5-8 when you are budgeting


Shea

Probably a little cheaper than Crylon and it will help with any of that pesky pot metal that might sneak into the configuration...

gcarter
07-08-2008, 08:37 PM
I agree, steering isn't rocket science!
Hell, for $500 you could pry go to Tractor Supply and buy everything. It just wouldn't be pretty! :D
Here ya go.....price is right on the money!!:eek!::eek!:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fully-Hydraulic-Steering-kit-dana-60-rock-crawler_W0QQitemZ300238959741QQcmdZViewItem?hash=i tem300238959741&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37153&d=1215567429

Dr. Dan
07-08-2008, 09:58 PM
:smash: The Gentleman I spoke to did not recall if they had anything for a King Cobra - then again I do not really know who it was - but he sounded knowledgable and was not a Counter Jocky.

I have never contacted MayFair - Greg K had done alot of research on this a few years back - because he is super selective about when he comes out of the Shell he's hiding in... I will have to bother him personally and call him and see where he left off. :lame2:


I won't do anything until I speak with all sources and I will be speaking to you about it offline before I pull any triggers - pretty sure the Hull is making a Trip South, its likely gonna be there a few months, to prepare for :doh:SMACKDOWN 2009 - An Awakening of BS - cuz by then Ted can decide if the person he sells his Illmor 22 Classic to will attend AOTH IX, and we can all be embarrassed except Todd of course.:tase:

By then Byron will have changed his Prop to the correct Pitch and will be doing low 90's, Poodle may have something that floats he can bring, Phil Lipshutz will forget how pathetic our non-540's run and he may be back, lets see Dwight might have sprung for his friggin PRoCharger by then- course no one will know about it cuz its a State Secret, Culotta mighta actually purchased a correct pitched Prop by May of 09 and he could get a wild hair...nah...that'll never happen. Cliff will have some seat time in his Critter, hmmmm we haven't even spoke about Johnny Bravo yet - Bob Haver - god help us all.

Yep 2009 is gonna be a fun Donzi Year - who knows - might just sell it and see how the other people live..... Hmmmm?

No one wants a Chris Craft King Cobra Boat - probably only worth a few grand if I parted it out...maybe with the Fancy Flame Arrestor ... and some of the other little Bling Items - maybe I could get a Canoe like Riggle has.

Only time will tell - come on 2009!

Doc of Un-Coned King Cobras :thumbsup:

mjw930
07-09-2008, 08:21 AM
Also Brett Mays may be able to help, since he designed the Mayfair steering systems and was the first to do the Black Hawk drives. I believe he still works out of Harding Marine.

Brett May hooked up with Paul Everett a couple years back after his contract with KEP/Hardin expired. He's pretty much out of the steering business from what I've heard and is mostly doing custom dash panels for the big $$$ boats these days.

Brett May
954-551-7888
bret@everettperformance.com

As for my comments on Imco, I didn't mean to say they weren't a good system and for the $$$$ they provide a lot of value. I just think Everett/Zeiger are the best systems out there these days when you consider quality, price and engineering.

BigGrizzly
07-09-2008, 08:27 AM
Doc, I am sure you will do fine. As for the King cobra, If I wanted a boat and there were two side by side and were the same condition etc. and one had the king and the other had the Bravo, I would take the king! This statement is not up for discussion.

MOP
07-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Randy I agree 100%, it is mostly Volvo designed parts and gear case design. Had OMC been able to keep their act together they may have by now blown the black junk out of the water. Volvo has long proven it's self far superior to Merc and others, if Merc was truly on the ball and cared about it's customer base they would adopt the better features instead of standing their planned obsolescence stance!

Barry Eller
07-10-2008, 07:25 AM
Just a thought...as I also have a King Cobra...

Due to the relationship OMC had with Volvo in the production days, is it possible some Volvo parts would interchange. Doesn't Volvo have a hydraulic steering system?

I'm following this thread with interest.

I have often thought that if I ever need to replace my drive, I would go with a Volvo.

MOP
07-10-2008, 09:25 AM
Yup but you need to steal it off Tony's boat, his is a dou prop that is quicker then a Bravo. Hooked to Dan's mill that would be something to watch! You can bet if there had been a decent Volvo package available when I needed it no way would I have black on back, I am still sorry I did go black.

Dr. Dan
07-10-2008, 09:15 PM
Yup but you need to steal it off Tony's boat, his is a dou prop that is quicker then a Bravo. Hooked to Dan's mill that would be something to watch! You can bet if there had been a decent Volvo package available when I needed it no way would I have black on back, I am still sorry I did go black.


Phil - :spongebob: Your Boat goes like 54.795 mph and thats with the Big Bumper Viking Balls Swaying insync.... why are you sooo unhappy with Merc? Course I am just busting your stones... I still remember in 1000 Isles seeing the silhouette of the 22 with the White Balls Swinging... against Boldts Castle in the background....

Island Doctor :wavey:

Trueser
07-10-2008, 09:38 PM
Phil - :spongebob: Your Boat goes like 54.795 mph and thats with the Big Bumper Viking Balls Swaying insync.... why are you sooo unhappy with Merc? Course I am just busting your stones... I still remember in 1000 Isles seeing the silhouette of the 22 with the White Balls Swinging... against Boldts Castle in the background....
Island Doctor :wavey:


Ok I need a new keyboard.