Is There An Imco Shorty In My Future?

[Carl C]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm..........:wink:

[BigGrizzly]

I don't know. I play your game is there a Imco shorty in your future?

[Carl C]

I don't know either but I'm thinking about it. For one thing I have a labbed 28p Bravo one that's a little much. I could handle 250-300 more rpm. Should I do it? Is it something I can do myself? I run fast on rough water, would this be a good move for me since my drive leaves the water quite a bit now? I know I would like the extra couple mph (now seeing 75 in good conditions). I'd like the roostertail and I think my prop will work well with a shorty.:confused::confused::confused:

[BigGrizzly]

It really is not hard unless you try to swap the gears your self than some special tool are required. I stopped doing it myself years ago. The last time I did a lower unit was when doing the Honda Marine Flat Rate manual. I have not done my own since 1989 for Merc and 1990 when I changed the outer case on my Volvo

[blackhawk]

Carl the Classics have a very conservative X so I think you will see some gains. And your existing prop should work well. Easy swap if you buy a complete lower ready to bolt on. The question is, as always, $$$ vs performance and only you can answer that since it's your boat and your money!

[gcarter]

Carl, there are two people on this site (among others, I'm sure) who'll tell you there's no gain until you have a lot more ponies.
That the shortie is part of a package of parts that work together.
By itself, it'll be as disappointing as the headers.
Of course you seem to have a history of doing what your first inclination is, no matter what anyone tells you.
So enjoy.

[Cuda]

Carl, leave the damn boat alone and just enjoy it, instead of looking for something to do with it. Like saying goes: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Carl C]

Carl, there are two people on this site (among others, I'm sure) who'll tell you there's no gain until you have a lot more ponies.
That the shortie is part of a package of parts that work together.
By itself, it'll be as disappointing as the headers.
Of course you seem to have a history of doing what your first inclination is, no matter what anyone tells you.
So enjoy. The power will be coming in a couple of years, after the ext steering. George, I DO listen to people here and it was because of this board that I didn't install a fixed VHF or a drive shower even though the shower thing was mixed.

[Carl C]

Carl, leave the damn boat alone and just enjoy it, instead of looking for something to do with it. Like saying goes: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I want to make it run 85-90 eventually. Probably with a SC 496 or maybe a repower.

[chappy]

If it's a part of the puzzle you're putting together and ya got the cheese, have at it brother.

[Carl C]

Is it a lot cheaper to just buy the case and shaft and other parts and have the guts swapped or should I buy an assembled unit. I'm thinking in a couple months BTW. I will research the threads here when I have more time, busy now with holiday and boating. How much do they cost? How much RPM will I pick up. BTW George, this board helped me with my propeller choice too!!:propeller:

[blackhawk]

Carl if I remember right they are about $4k complete and about $2k for just the case and vertical shaft. Then you have to pay someone you trust to transfer everything over. Don't quote me on those prices as they are from memory and a few months ago. But they should be close.

I personally think you will see some gain with just the shorty. I can't see why you would need extra power to see the benifits from a higher propshaft.

[Pismo]

How does the Imco handle water pickup?

[Carl C]

Good stuff, the price is right too. How many rpm will I pick up?

[gcarter]

When I first met Catch, he hadn't owned the boat very long. He had added SM exhaust manifolds, external steering, and K-Planes. On a cool day it would do about 70-71 with the 454 Mag.
Then he added the shortie and still gained little unless it was a cool day.
Of course what woke it up was the blower.

[gcarter]

Hey Carter, if you actually spent some time RUNNING your boat as opposed to re-building it, you might have some real world experince on this topic, but you don't, so quiet down, would ya?
Buzz off Todd.
You wanna spend large sums of money on your boat, I'd rather work on mine.
Besides, I have no desire to go 80 MPH.

I think the answer you gave was essentially the same as mine.
What's your problem?????

[MOP]

Jim mentioned a 22 with I am fairly sure a 6.2 SB that was doing real good, also up at the 1000 Island run there was a white 22 90% sure it had stock power that ran well.

[The Hedgehog]

If you want to run in the 80's and 90's the Shorty is a good part of the equation. Budget for a new prop too.

Just sticking on a shorty is not always an instant 5 mph. It will do better as you pick up the ponies. So does a standard IMCO lower. I would consider steering first. It sure feels good.

[blackhawk]

How does the Imco handle water pickup?

The shorties have a low water pick-up.

[The Hedgehog]

The shorties have a low water pick-up.

And they generate some good water pressure. My IMCO pushes 15-20 lbs of pressure. I teed my intercooler off the hull pickup so that is just the engine.

[blackhawk]

Carl, here are the retail prices.



BRV-13_B
Xtreme Advantage Black Case only 2366.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_BC
Xtreme Advantage Black Case Complete, 1" prop shaft, 1:50 ratio 4051.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_BCX
Xtreme Advantage Black Case Complete, 1 1/4" prop shaft, 1:50 ratio
4467.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_P
Xtreme Advantage Polished Case only 2366.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_PC
Xtreme Advantage Polished Case Complete, 1" prop shaft, 1:50 ratio 4051.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_PCX
Xtreme Advantage Polished Case Complete, 1 1/4" prop shaft, 1:50 4467.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_S
Xtreme Advantage Satin Case only 2141.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_SC
Xtreme Advantage Satin Case Complete 1" prop shaft, 1:50 ratio 3825.00 Each

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRV-13_SCX
Xtreme Advantage Satin Case Complete, 1 1/4" prop shaft, 1:50 4240.00 Each

[osur866]

Carl, I have just done this on an 18 not a 22 with stock power and am not quite done playing with props yet but after this weekend I have gotten about 25 hrs. of seat time with the shorty and if you decied to do it you will need to relearn the boat that is for sure! As for the gains after this weekend I am almost back where I started before the shorty with the same prop but am currently on the limiter I have tried many different props and I have a couple others to try and if I dont see any real gains then I'm going to play with a few spacers, my experience is you dont just bolt it on and go up one prop size and gain 5 mph. It will change the way the boat handles that is for sure, for me the jury is still out but I haven't given up on it, it has been a true experiment. MY .02 Steve

[osur866]

I did better than those advertised prices and if he's patient he might find one off ebay or offshore only saw one there last week for 2950 1 1/4 prop shaft. Steve

[The Hedgehog]

Carl, I have just done this on an 18 not a 22 with stock power and am not quite done playing with props yet but after this weekend I have gotten about 25 hrs. of seat time with the shorty and if you decied to do it you will need to relearn the boat that is for sure! As for the gains after this weekend I am almost back where I started before the shorty with the same prop but am currently on the limiter I have tried many different props and I have a couple others to try and if I dont see ant real gains then I'm going to play with a few spacers, my experience is you dont just bolt it on and go up one prop size and gain 5 mph. It will change the way the boat handles that is for sure, for me the jury is still out but I haven't given up on it, it has been a true experiment. MY .02 Steve

Steve,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Not many divulge the negatives. What prop did you run last?

Hang in there. You drive well and you will get it. At least I hope you do so you can educate me!:)

I would be right with you on this but I have enough science experiements going on right now.

[blackhawk]

I did better than those advertised prices and if he's patient he might find one off ebay or offshore only saw one there last week for 2950 1 1/4 prop shaft. Steve

I agree those are retail from IMCO. I just figured that would give him an idea. I saw one on OSO a couple months ago for $2400. Didn't last long!

[osur866]

Bill, the last one I tried was yours ran the mirage plus this weekend and that was diffently the wrong choice for the 4th @ LOTO :shocking:!

[gcarter]

OK Sommerville, since you like to use my last name.
By the way, my first name is George.
At my age, I really have no disire to go fast in a boat or any other transportation means.
But that doesn't mean I'm stupid or blind. I do know a few things about these boats.
As far as Carl goes, I was trying to get his attention. Instead, I got yours.
I have no malice against Carl. I think he knows that. It's his boat and he'll do what he wants.
In the past he posted a poll about headers. I and others suggested that he try props first. He found out the headers didn't add much.
I personally agree with you that he'd be better served by installing external hydraulic steering next.
I personally hope that's what he does. But it's his boat and he'll do what he wants.

Now buzz off.

[osur866]

I think in the end there are postives to it but it is sure a learning curve, I have made each and every modification one thing at a time and went and retested after each thing that I have done so I would know exactly what helped or hurt the handling and or performance, most people do several things all at once and are really not sure where they saw the added performance or worse what went wrong. I will have accurate info and real data when I'm done but its just taking much longer than I figured. Your not going to know unless your willing to invest the $ and time to find out, and then if your happy as to how it has changed your boat when your done, I really think that I will get there but the outcome may not be as some may think but again this is an 18 not your 22 it is different I'm sure. Your not gonna know unless you try it and if you want to then just do it the one thing about the shorty is you can always go back or space down or sell the thing for a slight loss, for me I talked to a few different people before doing so and got different opinions, some like it some don't, some think it helped there set up some didn't still knowing this I decided to go foward and buy one complete so if it didn't work out I could bolt my standard back up. I half wonder as to my set up why I haven't experienced much if any gain to date is I have a standard bravo 1 and I ordered a complete -2 lower with the xr gears, the only way they sell them complete, wonder what the difference in hp loss from a standard lower vers a xr lower if any - Steve

[Carl C]

Thanks for all of the good info. George, you have helped me a lot in the past but I don't want you to think that I'm wasting people's time posting questions because I've already made up my mind. The suggestions of prop testing are easier said then done when my work schedule doesn't allow me to attend many events. I had to tap the board's collective experience and decided on a Mercury Racing labbed Bravo 1 28p. Testing in cooler weather last fall I was hitting over 75 regularly, although with lots of trim. Now that the real summer is here and it is hotter and more humid I am seeing 74-75 topped out. My rpms are rarely above 4,800. Mid-range, the boat is a rocket. My goal with a shorty would be 2 more mph, rpms closer to 5,000 or a bit more, being able to use my current prop and not inducing any negative characteristics such as porpoising. Blackhawk, thanks for the pricing info. Right now I'd lean toward the complete lower in polished aluminum with 1" shaft for prop compatability. I could do this in a couple months to get my rpms up and speed up and do the steering next year. The boat is still pretty new and the stock steering fairly tight. I don't mind relearning to drive the boat but will I hurt the handling at all? Todd, did you stay with the 1" shaft? The engine work will not be done untill I think the motor is getting tired or I damage it. I'm not going to pull a healthy motor and the build up will be 10-15 g to properly do a SC 496. So the motor work may be as long as four years away, I don't know yet. $4,000 is not that much money but is there any reason that I should NOT do this??

Steve, thanks for the input and I hope you get the boat dialed in. You're right that one big advantage to buying a complete lower is being able to go back and also having a spare lower if it gets damaged. I don't know about the drive using more hp but it doesn't seem like it should.

[Carl C]

Osur (Steve), I just read your whole shorty thread and WOW! Propeller talk will be strictly forbidden on this thread!:propeller::doh::wink:

[BigGrizzly]

Just so every body knows, I was with Steve and we tried an arsenal of props. His driving skills are good. After riding with him for two days I can honestly say he didn't make any mistakes and has relearned his boat. I will say we did achieve his normal, stock lower unit speed but it took a while. the 22 and 18 are quite a different animal, due to the rocker. I am guessing when the spacers are installed he will see a slight gain, due to the hydrodynamics, but you can't be sure. that is why they call it testing! MY hat is off to Steve for plugging away after being disappointed at the performance. There is more then the speed involved here for him it is certain handling traits he wants too. He is doing the boat for himself not for bling. GO Steve. Like I said Steve If you need my help just call.

Now Trip and George cool your jets, don't be like ME and Vette. Both of you are a great asset to the board. Trip got his experience the hard way. Like me he believes "Nothing of what he hears or reads and only half of what he sees". George really likes to work on stuff, more then using it. I was like him until I got sick. Both of you will do anything it takes to help others I know I have been on the receiving end. For the rest of you looking on there isn't any real animosity here between these two it is just a different approach to issues.
Carl, what ever makes you happy. My suggestions are steering next shorty then engine, $, permitting. Fun supersedes the rest. I totally under stand your questioning. Everyone should realize the decision is up to you, not us. Yes we will give you flack but you have proven to be one of us! I do it backwards I do the engines first because that what I do and am fairly good at it. The steering was the best single thing I have done on all my boats.
Mr. Bow Rider has spoken!

[Cuda]

My problem, is your tone in your first response, and the fact that you have little first hand knowledge on the topic here. And I have to think the answers to the question aren't available off the shelf in some manual in your library.
I work on my stuff too, and I chose to spend money on first rate pieces that enhance the performance of my boat, including a shortie which I have over seven plus years running on a 22 Classic. Cheap junk is still cheap junk when it is all over with.
By your admitance of not wanting to "go 80", you are in the wrong end of the pool, so go back to what you know. You might want to check in with you friend Catch 22 to see what its costs him to make his boat run way faster than 80. I'm not the only one...
Trust me, George is highly intelligent. What he may lack in tact, he makes up for in knowledge.

[Cuda]

$4,000 is not that much money .
I'm happy to hear you say that. Btw, have we dicussed a loan lately? :)

[Cuda]

The steering was the best single thing I have done on all my boats.

That's exactly what Catch told me too.

[BigGrizzly]

Cuda you should have seen Gina and Barb Talking about that at Chris's and Mikes Party before Sarasota event. The guys were staring in awl while Jim and I sat back and grinned, what a trip.

[Carl C]

No more bickering. I respect all of your opinions. Sometimes Todd comes across as a little combative but you should all know by now that that's just him. Cuda, I'm not wealthy, I just have my priorities right. Boating is my priority. I need to get my rpms up and if I'm gonna do a shorty I should do that first rather than send the pr*p out(bad word). If I go with the 1 1/4" shaft can I get a new hub and still use my Bravo 1? Any other opinions on polished vs. black? I'm leaning toward doing this since it sounds like there are no draw-backs and the 18 and 22 are different enough that I shouldn't have Steve's problems. A registry member was kind enough to pm me with a good source for the new Imco. Also, why wouldn't I see a little more top end? The raised X Shelbys are faster and my end result should be the same, maybe better since the weight will be lower than the Shelbys/new SEs.

[gcarter]

Carl, it's just too bad you can't try one and see where you'd actually be.

Todd, it's MontY Python.

[BigGrizzly]

Yes hubs are interchangeable. As for the Shelby can't really answer that, they may have a little more power??? As for weight in this application, that will be debatable. With a 200 pound difference you won't be able to measure the difference in speed, unless it was concentrated on the bow then maybe. I like your priorities (boat). As for polished or black or sanded? we have done it all and until you really get up in speed, you will not notice it. I don't care about the theories- we have done it on a 24 Python, just to find out. So the choice is WHAT YOU LIKE. It will be interesting to see what the Imco will do on a stock unit. GPS:wink::crossfing:

[Carl C]

Yes hubs are interchangeable. As for the Shelby can't really answer that, they may have a little more power??? As for weight in this application, that will be debatable. With a 200 pound difference you won't be able to measure the difference in speed, unless it was concentrated on the bow then maybe. I like your priorities (boat). As for polished or black or sanded? we have done it all and until you really get up in speed, you will not notice it. I don't care about the theories- we have done it on a 24 Python, just to find out. So the choice is WHAT YOU LIKE. It will be interesting to see what the Imco will do on a stock unit. GPS:wink::crossfing: OK so I will order a hub if I do this. The Shelbys have stock 496 HO power just like me but run a couple more mph top-end. By weight difference I meant that I believe that the raised X was achieved by raising the whole engine/drive package, therefore the exhaust tips that are almost touching the rub rail. By installing a shorty the CG will stay a bit lower. If/when I do this maybe I can do a before and after run on the same day. George, yes it would be cool to try one first but I don't have any way to do that and I don't think I'd regret this mod by what you guys are saying. With vacation coming up it will be at least 6 weeks before I can do this. I think the polished would LOOK better.

[hot shot]

Carl: i might have a 2" imco shortie for sale with about 5 hours running time it has the large shaft and 1.50 to 1 ratio...roadtrip has first crack at it if i sell it you can have 2nd

[BUIZILLA]

I have a simple question...

don't shoot me...

is the X on an Alpha 18 the same as the X on a Bravo 18??

like I said.... don't shoot me

[Carl C]

Carl: i might have a 2" imco shortie for sale with about 5 hours running time it has the large shaft and 1.50 to 1 ratio...roadtrip has first crack at it if i sell it you can have 2nd Let me know..........The sun's out, I'm going boating.

[Cuda]

Cuda you should have seen Gina and Barb Talking about that at Chris's and Mikes Party before Sarasota event. The guys were staring in awl while Jim and I sat back and grinned, what a trip.
I can believe that! Sometimes Jimmy has to do that when Gina and I get our swerve on! :) Great couple.

[Dr. Dan]

:lame2:Wow I just love all of this constructive sidebar dialogue - Todd I gotta admit you are about as subtle as "40 Grit SandPaper in a Condem" - maybe some day you'll learn to say what you really think? :tase:

So call me silly but didn't Dwight just spend all of last Summer doing the Shorty experiment? He ended up doing the $1000 Prop Route and is a happy camper? Also I believe he just did the Zeiger Steering and loves its.... sooooo call me silly ... but Carl I would talk to him... he is an absolute lunatic for a change in performance, handling, speed or otherwise. Plus he spends a pretty good percentage of his Adult Life going close to the Speed of Sound... so WTF? I'd call him or pm him.

Good Luck Carl - BTW you will be getting a package shortly - off the record. :salute:

Where's that Popcorn Poodle?

Doc of Provacative Response & Lame Posts :screwy:

[gold-n-rod]

The guys were staring in awl while Jim and I sat back and grinned, what a trip.
Be careful, one of those will put an eye out!!!!!!!!!
http://www.diefenbacher.com/Rosewood%20awl.jpg

[mjw930]

Carl,

All the other conversations aside, considering your current 74-75 mph speed I wouldn't be doing anything until you put on external steering. You don't need dual ram but at least a single ram Zeiger full hydraulic setup is an absolute must from both a safety and a handling perspective. You may even find that 2 MPH being better able to handle the boat trimmed out.

Talk to Griz or call up BBlades, tell them how the boat runs, how much trim, etc and let them suggest some prop alternatives.

Again, DO THE STEERING, then work on getting that last 200 RPM. I can't imagine running a high X on this hull without the precision of external steering. I like excitement as much as the next guy but one wrong move and you'll be all over the lake with the slop in the current system.

[Mr X]

Ok,
here's my take since I HAVE DONE IT.
I bolted on an imco shorty on my 22, back in the day. (1999)

First one I think to do it on a 22 Donzi Classic.

After doing it at the boat ramp on the same day with and without,
I got 4.4 MPH top end on GPS and handled MUCH better.

Thats one reason why we built the 22 Shelby with a 2" higher X dimension.

[The Hedgehog]

Ok,
here's my take since I HAVE DONE IT.
I bolted on an imco shorty on my 22, back in the day. (1999)
First one I think to do it on a 22 Donzi Classic.
After doing it at the boat ramp on the same day with and without,
I got 4.4 MPH top end on GPS and handled MUCH better.
Thats one reason why we built the 22 Shelby with a 2" higher X dimension.

Did you need to change props?

[Carl C]

Carl,

All the other conversations aside, considering your current 74-75 mph speed I wouldn't be doing anything until you put on external steering. You don't need dual ram but at least a single ram Zeiger full hydraulic setup is an absolute must from both a safety and a handling perspective. You may even find that 2 MPH being better able to handle the boat trimmed out.

Talk to Griz or call up BBlades, tell them how the boat runs, how much trim, etc and let them suggest some prop alternatives.

Again, DO THE STEERING, then work on getting that last 200 RPM. I can't imagine running a high X on this hull without the precision of external steering. I like excitement as much as the next guy but one wrong move and you'll be all over the lake with the slop in the current system.Storms chased me off the lake early:lightning:(. Steering will happen but the shorty may have to be first, especially if hot shot sells me his. I've already invested in a Merc Racing Bravo 1 and think it will work well with a shorty. Mr. X's post makes me want to pick up the phone and order an Imco now! Steering is more expensive and more work and will make a good winter project if the money is there. Now I need a shorty. Hot shot, let me know asap if your's comes available please. It looks like this will happen. Oh yeah, I'll probably talk to Dwight.

[mjw930]

Ok,
here's my take since I HAVE DONE IT.
I bolted on an imco shorty on my 22, back in the day. (1999)
First one I think to do it on a 22 Donzi Classic.
After doing it at the boat ramp on the same day with and without,
I got 4.4 MPH top end on GPS and handled MUCH better.
Thats one reason why we built the 22 Shelby with a 2" higher X dimension.

What power and what prop (If you can remember that far back ;) )

[Carl C]

My opinion, steering is first..

C, you say your gimbal is tight, and it should be, but until you actually lock down all the play in the drive you won't know how sloppy a stock Merc drive really is..

AFAIAC, you are already above the safe speed limit on a stock Merc gimbal and steering system.. DO it first, and then when you realize that you picked up some speed because for the first time in your boat's life you can actually drive it WFO, then your ready for the next step..

And whilst I am tossing out opinions here, the 496 is junk.. Dollar for dollar vs HP for HP, there are better engines out there that will give you more hp when it's all said and done, and will be a better, more reliable power plant for you.. :hangum:

Run it until it blows up, then we can discuss a real engine for your boat... :smash:

YMMV

Two layers of flame suits on...

Your pal Al :) :D I might be able to swing steering and shorty both but will need to bust out the plastic. I plan to follow Dwight's lead and use the Zeiger full hydraulic twin ram system which sells for $4,000 at Diamond Performance and will use his thread for help: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52541 I can't deny there is slop in my steering. I'm also not going to get my hopes up for 4+ mph from the shorty but would be happy with a solid 2 mph gain. I was out today, didn't have gps on but ran about 74 at only 4,750 rpm. Weather hot and humid, it's raining now. Tach has been checked and is at least close.

OK, now, the 496 is junk?:eek!: I know there are other packages out there but I thought I had a good start with the CMIs and could build a good engine with new heads, crank, rods, pistons, cam and valvetrain, SC kit and required fuel system mods. Not a cheap project. Scott, what would you do? Start with a 502? It's too soon to plan my engine project but I need an emergency plan in case I blow it up.

[BigGrizzly]

I agree with you Carl and Poodle. Just wait until the 496 is toast. By that time there may be good 496 build up stuff. True the 502 and up are more hop upable and more durable, it wasn't always that way. The early396 and 454s were pretty poor. Its your choice, and you do have a good start.

[gcarter]

Griz doesn't run a shortie, in fact he has a TRS. He still runs 80+.....and he'll tell you there's more. He's may be a little like me and not really interested in how much more.
Even if you picked up a consistant 2 MPH, it's at the cost of $2,000.00/MPH.
I think I would get the steering and be safe for when the power goes in.
I was thinking about this today.....a 22 needs 550-650 HP to really go.
Piece mealing stuff together, i.e., headers, shorty, etc, don't make it go faster, they're called refinement.
An extra 150-200 HP will.


Remember, ya need another 150-200 HP to get where ya wanna be.

[blackhawk]

If it were me I would keep my eye out for a good used shortie. If you're patient you can find deals, especially in the winter.

Or...find someone close that has a shortie that is willing to swap you for a test run. :D

As far as the motor you may be waiting a LONG time for your 496 to puke. Have you thought of looking for a 525 takeout? I've seen some low hour units for about $15-$16k. Won't get you to 90 but mid 80s could be possible.

[BUIZILLA]

I like the 496... :)

[Mr X]

Good point, I did have twin ram Latham steering BEFORE the shorty went on.

I went from a 25 Mirage plus ( I was on the edge of the rev limiter 5150 RPMs before the shorty)

I tried the 27 Mirage and it was terrible. It would not plane off. Almost scraped the shorty idea right then BUT.....

Tried a 29 mirage plus and was a bit low in RPMs at 4700-4800

Engine was a strong 502 mag MPI with an Arizona Speed and Marine
throttle body and re-mapped Mefi III computer.

Yes the Higher X boats do require more tab (if you use tabs) I dont like to use tabs on anything at top end....and I am talking about 80+ MPH boats. Not daily crusiers or family boats.

Just to clairfy for the few who don't know... X-dimension refers to engine crankshaft height, NOT propshaft height.
The higher X-dimension raises the engine and makes any performance boat more vunerable to chine walk, thus tabs are required for SOME drivers to feel more secure. Most high perf boat drivers learn how to balance the hull on the keel thru the steering wheel and not use tabs, if the boat is set up correctly.

The trick set up is to get the engine as low in the bilge as possible, and then
start raising the propshaft with drive options.

Again my post only applies for high perf applications. Not crusing comfertably at 60-70 or pulling skiers, taking the family out for a cruise......ect.

[The Hedgehog]

All very good points Ted.

I have often wondered why Merc and the boat manufacturers jack up the X instead of using a shorty or other means of raising the prop shaft in performance applications.

[gcarter]

All very good points Ted.
I have often wondered why Merc and the boat manufacturers jack up the X instead of using a shorty or other means of raising the prop shaft in performance applications.
Much cheaper.

JMO

[Carl C]

All very good points Ted.

I have often wondered why Merc and the boat manufacturers jack up the X instead of using a shorty or other means of raising the prop shaft in performance applications. I was going to ask that too but figured it's because they want to use complete, ready to run powertrains from Mercury. Like George said, it's cheaper. I don't think I'll wait until my engine totally wears out but we'll revisit that in 2-4 years. And it seems that not all think the 496 is hopeless........:propeller:

[osur866]

I have a simple question...

don't shoot me...

is the X on an Alpha 18 the same as the X on a Bravo 18??

like I said.... don't shoot me
Buiz, from what I've been told the alpha put in the same X as the Bravo the Alpha's propshaft would be 1/4" higher than the Bravo. Maybe someone else can confirm this. Was told to me that the propshaft on the bravo is set back further than on the Alphas putting the propshaft deeper by 1/4". Steve

[osur866]

Todd I have no interest at this point in selling the -2 lower at this time, Carl I went with the satin standard 1" prop shaft and I too have a good source to buy through, probably the same as the name you already have but pm me if interested, something else you need to consider Carl is this, how often do you boat running your exhaust thru the prop? Do you ever boat on any lakes that have noise restrictions in which you can't open the exhaust up? I do and let me tell you I have experienced a different handling boat with the shortie running thru prop and thru transom, with the shortie its longer to plane anyway and much longer to plane when running thru the prop and don't even get me started about the tight put the rubrail foward of the winshield in the water turns with the shortie all things to consider, this board has been a wealth of information sometimes there is no right or wrong choice in how many of us change or modify our babies, what works on one may not work on another, we all boat in different water ways where the conditions are different, your driving style maybe different than mine or anybody elses, yes the theory does still come into play higher X less drag faster speed but sometimes that comes at a cost to how the boat might handle in other than WFO speeds, going to keep my mouth shout and go back to testing now -- Steve

[blackhawk]

I went from 415HP in a 502MAG to 470HP in a 500HP, and let's just say that
the 500 is underated by Mercury and round it up to a true 500HP. However you slice it, I installed 55-85HP and a shortie with the speed robbing XR gear set none the less.
Results? Top speed with the 502? 68-70. Top speed with the 500? 80-82.
Think maybe, just perhaps, that the shortie DID have something to do with it?

I agree. I'll put money down that the shortie contributed at least 2-3 mph. Going from a 502 mag to a 500hp is about 80 real world hp. Going from 68-70 to 80-82 with 80hp gain is very impressive! Good job.

[Dr. Dan]

I agree. I'll put money down that the shortie contributed at least 2-3 mph. Going from a 502 mag to a 500hp is about 80 real world hp. Going from 68-70 to 80-82 with 80hp gain is very impressive! Good job.

:smash: Gee I wanna play smack down too - what do ya think contributed to my gain from 59 mph with a 454 to the HP500EFI and lets just say 80mph?

Must be the Grey Paint on my drive? It couldn't be Displacement? :lame2:

It couldn't be that the newest unsung Skunk works Crew are all running 540's? Byron, Poodle & now Cliff, Tripper - You better plant some seriously Big Venus Fly Trap Plants in that Red Flower Pot of yours - Cause the Fly Trap is the only way you're gonna catch the real displacement boys. Hell even your newest Pals the Cig Boys have 540's? :screwy:

These guys with their Horsepower Robbing TRS Drives will walk right by you and I at will any given day once they get dialed in.... you better get ready to dig a bit deeper into your wallet there Evil Twin :tase:

Oh I can hardly wait - refinement versus - major capital infusion - hmmm - maybe I'll just sell mine .... this is getting ridiculous.... I can't handle all the pressure? :doh:

So how far can you bore out a "Stock 502 Block" ?

Doc of HiJacks - Cracker Jacks & Bottle Jacks :hijack:

[The Hedgehog]

540's are for the displacement challenged...
I do believe it will work well in the X18 though...
The other Scott
With something else in the attic... :eek!: :eek!:

I was thinking about putting my 540 in the X-18. I figure if the classic 22 and the cig 20 guys are doing it, it must be an even better idea in a 18. Then I might not even need a shorty.:outtahere: I could got some of Doc's gray paint and .......

[gcarter]

I truly believe the secret to 80+ MPH is Dr. Dans Gray Paint.
Period.
Screw carpet Dan, sell Gray Paint!:eek!:
Don't need no stinkin' hardware!

After all, Dr Dan introduced us to White Bilge Coat now almost universally used by everyone here.

[Carl C]

Even if you picked up a consistant 2 MPH, it's at the cost of $2,000.00/MPH.
I think I would get the steering and be safe for when the power goes in.
I was thinking about this today.....a 22 needs 550-650 HP to really go.
Piece mealing stuff together, i.e., headers, shorty, etc, don't make it go faster George, to me that 2g/1mph is money well spent. You have spent that much on wasted gel coat(a problem I hope you have solved). Everyone says one piece at a time. So far I'm hearing that a shorty will make the boat run flatter, faster and shoot a roostertail(I miss those from my OB days). No one has pointed out any real drawbacks to a shorty on a 22C. It looks like it will be done. Steering too, although the steering is more work and I can't say for sure it will be done first but both will be done this summer or fall.


Carl I went with the satin standard 1" prop shaft and I too have a good source to buy through, probably the same as the name you already have but pm me if interested, something else you need to consider Carl is this, how often do you boat running your exhaust thru the prop? Do you ever boat on any lakes that have noise restrictions in which you can't open the exhaust up? I do and let me tell you I have experienced a different handling boat with the shortie running thru prop and thru transom, with the shortie its longer to plane anyway and much longer to plane when running thru the prop and don't even get me started about the tight put the rubrail foward of the winshield in the water turns with the shortie I will go with the bigger prop shaft since there will be more hp in my future. I've seen several twisted prop shafts from 200 OBs. This piece takes a tremendous ammount of torque. Since the CMI install and even after modifications my through prop mode is only usable to 3,500 rpm. At 4g the butterflys are overpowered and the exhaust opens. Now I just go slower on the local lake with just a couple high speed runs and I get out on Lakes St. Clair and Huron more and let it roar. So I might bank even steeper in turns? Actually the banking is a trait I love about these boats. Remember too that you have an 18 so we are comparing apples to oranges.

Another thought: When I repower I want more than 500 hp so even if I get a 525 I'll need to at least lower the compression and SC it. This would set me back about 25g when I figure I can do my 496 for under 15g. Remember that both are BBCs.

Hot shot, let me know on that shorty. If we agree on the price I can do this right now. Not trying to beat Todd out of it but let me know. Thanks.

Osur866, Steve, I think I have the same source as you but will send pm before ordering.

Thanks everyone for all of the help and for leaving the prop talk out!!

[blackhawk]

:smash: Gee I wanna play smack down too - what do ya think contributed to my gain from 59 mph with a 454 to the HP500EFI and lets just say 80mph?
Must be the Grey Paint on my drive? It couldn't be Displacement? :lame2:

No, HP and displacement had nothing to do with it. :D

I was just saying I bet RT's shortie played a couple mph into the factor.

Your accomplishment is equally impressive. I'm jealous that both of you are faster than me.

[Carl C]

A 600 hp NA 540 is so easy to do for less than 15k it's not funny..

Another isea is to sell the running 496 now while it has value..

Is the 540 a bored and stroked 502? Exhaust alone is 5k and I won't be able to use my CMIs:(. Is the 502 or 540 a direct bolt in replacement? One possibility would be to start working on an engine soon and do it as I can afford the parts. I was kind of set on supercharging and would like to keep EFI. My 496 should have value for a while, I run it hard but don't abuse it and I do lots of oil changes.

[BigGrizzly]

Remember boys There IS ONLY two ways to make horse power and that is bigger bangs or more bangs.
I keep the TRS for several reasons. one is it is stronger then a bravo or XR. weak point being the merc trans. two it isn't a stock part on my Criterion. three, horse power is easier for me to do than fiberglass work on the transom, Four, I personally like the way a deeper drive works on my driving style and the waters I drive., Five is The wife won't let me, a TRS is cheaper than a divorce. vThere is one other reason and that is I am too darn lazy. I don't need to go faster, and I like my fuel economy at this moment. For you who don't know the king/ volvo is less power robbing and more hydrodynamic then the Bravo. This was told to me by a Merc engineer.

[gcarter]

Todd, My money's on the Sand Bagger Boys....:smash:

Anonymous boat mechanic and restorer of used parts:propeller:

[BigGrizzly]

I am staying out of the Todd vs Sand bagger boys discussion. I will say if you don't practice driving faster, you will be slower. I learned about 3 mph more speed with practice and each boat is different. In case some people want to know I have a 502 gen V block with a bunch of stuff in it. I will say that that 640 cid Donovan was real tempting just sitting on the shelf! 900+ ponies on 87 octane. OH well it now belongs to another in some type of V hull on lake Hartwell.
I am with Todd on the increments thing. like you eat an elephant-one bite at a time. Again a 496 isn't a bad motor, I think it can be made real fast.

[BERTRAM BOY]

Carl, I am banking on the shortie, steering, prop testing knowledge, and other fine tuning experience to carry me beyond the skunkworks/sandbagger boys next year with a little more happening in the engine bay.

Who said what now?

[BUIZILLA]

sadbagger???

oh... that's sandbagger...

of course, I have nooooo idea what that is :shark:

[The Hedgehog]

Is the 540 a bored and stroked 502? Exhaust alone is 5k and I won't be able to use my CMIs:(. Is the 502 or 540 a direct bolt in replacement? One possibility would be to start working on an engine soon and do it as I can afford the parts. I was kind of set on supercharging and would like to keep EFI. My 496 should have value for a while, I run it hard but don't abuse it and I do lots of oil changes.

There are two 540's. A short deck and a tall deck. A 540 is a 502 with a longer stroke.

No, you can't make your 496 into a 540.

I don't think that the exhaust from a 496 will work but maybe one of the technical guys will articulate more on that.

[Carl C]

There are two 540's. A short deck and a tall deck. A 540 is a 502 with a longer stroke.

No, you can't make your 496 into a 540.

I don't think that the exhaust from a 496 will work but maybe one of the technical guys will articulate more on that. Thanks. This year it will be steering and shorty. There is no point in going on about the motor since I will hopefully get a couple more years out of my 496.

[Donziweasel]

Dr. Dan, if you sell the 540, I want it. I have it all figured out. I will cut out the rear seat of the 16, making it a two seater, extend the bildge, put in a new bulkhead behind the front seats, lift off the whole deck, slap it in and mate it to my stock Alpha with a 21 pitch. Think I could finally break 60 at my altitude? :smash::hangum::propeller:

Sell the 496 on Ebay Carl and build a 540 or hop up a 502 with some nice mods. I have done some engines, and although you will curse, walk away, throw things, spit, and wish evil things on many people during the build, it would be a great learning experience. Building an engine is actaully easier than it sounds and you have a lot of help on these boards. Once the machine shop is done with the bore on the 502, it all goes together like legos or lincoln logs.:wink: Would make a nice winter project. Plus, you can powder coat some components at home in the oven like Rootsy did in Patti's oven.:) Always wanted to try that.

Got to run, going to call Mad Poodle and see if I can talk him out of SS for Dan 540. BTW, I am in Denver for a few days. Anyone know where Tamm is?

[Donziweasel]

Dr. Dan, if you sell the 540, I want it. I have it all figured out. I will cut out the rear seat of the 16, making it a two seater, extend the bildge, put in a new bulkhead behind the front seats, lift off the whole deck, slap it in and mate it to my stock Alpha with a 21 pitch. Think I could finally break 60 at my altitude? :smash::hangum::propeller:

Sell the 496 on Ebay Carl and build a 540 or hop up a 502 with some nice mods. I have done some engines, and although you will curse, walk away, throw things, spit, and wish evil things on many people during the build, it would be a great learning experience. Building an engine is actaully easier than it sounds and you have a lot of help on these boards. Once the machine shop is done with the bore on the 502, it all goes together like legos or lincoln logs.:wink: Would make a nice winter project. Plus, you can powder coat some components at home in the oven like Rootsy did in Patti's oven.:) Always wanted to try that.

Got to run, going to call Mad Poodle and see if I can talk him out of SS for Dans 540. BTW, I am in Denver for a few days. Anyone know where Tamm is?

[boxy]

I am staying out of the Todd vs Sand bagger boys discussion. In case some people want to know I have a 502 gen V block with a bunch of stuff in it.

Randy, after watching Poodle in your bilge, that may be the understatement of the year ..... :D :D

[Brian41]

Guy's just letting you know that Mick is in the hospital with some heart issues. I talked to him last night and will get some more info today.

[undertaker]

Give him my best.... very sorry to hear that......:frown:

[BigGrizzly]

I found out yesterday but was not allowed to talk to him. I know what it is like with the heart thing, I have a 12 inch scar on my chest, I am one of the lucky ones.

[BigGrizzly]

DW in your statement you wanted to power coat and use Pattie's oven, I think I would ask her first:smash:

[Dr. Dan]

Sorry about the wrong thread post-

Mick you are in our thoughts and prayers - Be Well.

Doc & Lizard

[BigGrizzly]

Doc, this is the wrong thread.

[Carl C]

Doc, this is the wrong thread. Yup, I think so. Not that I care since this thread has pretty much served it's purpose. Who is Mick? DW, not gonna worry about the motor just yet. A home oven doesn't get hot enough for powdercoating does it? I tried to bake on paint on some 2-stroke atv pipes once. Man did it stink up the house as the residue in the pipes burned up!

[BigGrizzly]

Mick is Hot Shot, one of the most enthusiastic and nicest guys you will meet. I call him friend

[Carl C]

Mick is Hot Shot, one of the most enthusiastic and nicest guys you will meet. I call him friend Oh shi t, he was on this thread. I hope it turns out to be not too serious. Best wishes hot shot.:(

[gcarter]

I too hope Mick is OK. I've not met him, but "chest zippers" aren't fun and they take about a year to completely recover from as I got mine about 16 months ago.

[CDMA]

My regards to Mick. Met him at Lake George. Cool guy and a damn nice engine hatch.

It needs to be considered that Danny's prop shaft height is different than the Bravo boats essentially meaning he is running a shorty and his old engine only resulting in 59mph had more to do with it being a peanut port 454 which compares to almost no other 22's in this discussion. That being said, I am sure his and Todd's engines are different, unfortunately we can't quantify by how much, but we can numerically address this issue.

For all the 22 talk lets put some more intelligence behind it:

Take the boats to a flat concrete pad, make sure the keel is level (not the trailer) and measure your prop shaft height in reference to the keel (be sure the drive is neutral). I think it will answer a few questions. It would be interesting, and I think revealing, to compare multiple Bravo boats that appear to run different, TRS, and King Cobra Boats.

While we are all at it lets measure, with the drive neutral, the setback from the transom to the forward end of the prop hub. Drop a line (in plumb bob kind of form) from the aft point of the keel to the concrete pad, a line from the front of the hub to the pad, and measure the difference. I think that dimension is the reason the TRS boats seem to run so different, and also the reason the forthcoming Viper boat will be the best running (by that I mean handling, keeping speed aside) 22 we have ever seen. It also is why the Arneson 22 should be even better, but Kenny Lassard seems determined to prove me massively wrong with that....

CDMA

[boxy]

Be well Mick .....

Thanks to BradV for the picture from Friday Night at Lake George.

[Donziweasel]

I guess I should use Boo Boo's oven instead of Patti's. On the Red Mistress engine, Jamie powder coated some smaller pieces in Patti's oven.

Hope Mick is alright. Many of you remember what I went through last year with my mom's quintuple bypass surgery. Heart conditions are serious.

Carl, if a new engine is not in the works right now, have you considered supercharging the 496 to get the ponies needed for the shorty to make a difference? $5,000-$6000 will get you there in a Procharger or Vortec. Then run it till it blows up and build the 540.:wink:

[undertaker]

My regards to Mick. Met him at Lake George. Cool guy and a damn nice engine hatch.
It needs to be considered that Danny's prop shaft height is different than the Bravo boats essentially meaning he is running a shorty and his old engine only resulting in 59mph had more to do with it being a peanut port 454 which compares to almost no other 22's in this discussion. That being said, I am sure his and Todd's engines are different, unfortunately we can't quantify by how much, but we can numerically address this issue.
For all the 22 talk lets put some more intelligence behind it:
Take the boats to a flat concrete pad, make sure the keel is level (not the trailer) and measure your prop shaft height in reference to the keel (be sure the drive is neutral). I think it will answer a few questions. It would be interesting, and I think revealing, to compare multiple Bravo boats that appear to run different, TRS, and King Cobra Boats.
While we are all at it lets measure, with the drive neutral, the setback from the transom to the forward end of the prop hub. Drop a line (in plumb bob kind of form) from the aft point of the keel to the concrete pad, a line from the front of the hub to the pad, and measure the difference. I think that dimension is the reason the TRS boats seem to run so different, and also the reason the forthcoming Viper boat will be the best running (by that I mean handling and speed aside) 22 we have ever seen. It also is why the Arneson 22 should be even better, but Kenny Lassard seems determined to prove me massively wrong with that....
CDMA


Chris....you are INSANE:nilly::nilly:...everytime I talk to you or listen to you, you make my head spin:bonk::bonk: You are a wealth of knowledge to put it mildly....impressive...talk to ya soon..

Undertaker

[Carl C]

Carl, if a new engine is not in the works right now, have you considered supercharging the 496 to get the ponies needed for the shorty to make a difference? $5,000-$6000 will get you there in a Procharger or Vortec. Don't want to do that. When I do it I want to do it right with all forged internals and comp between 7.5-8 to 1. Mick, hopefully just a little hiccup, get well soon.

[Donziweasel]

Don't want to do that. When I do it I want to do it right with all forged internals and comp between 7.5-8 to 1. Mick, hopefully just a little hiccup, get well soon.


Hmmmm......do it right. Many folks think it is fine to SC a stock engine with low boost and have run them for years with no problem. Some are on this board. I am not sure you need forged pistons or really high performance parts with a comp between 7.5to 8. I don't consider that running on the "ragged edge".

Whenver SC comes up here, the NA guys say it sucks and is almost cheating, and those who have done it say go for it. Me, hp is hp, no matter where it comes from as long as it is reliable. I might be a little biased as SC has fixed many hp problems at altitude, where air is at a premium.

On the other hand, build a 540, then SC it!

[The Hedgehog]

Hmmmm......do it right. Many folks think it is fine to SC a stock engine with low boost and have run them for years with no problem. Some are on this board. I am not sure you need forged pistons or really high performance parts with a comp between 7.5to 8. I don't consider that running on the "ragged edge".
Whenver SC comes up here, the NA guys say it sucks and is almost cheating, and those who have done it say go for it. Me, hp is hp, no matter where it comes from as long as it is reliable. I might be a little biased as SC has fixed many hp problems at altitude, where air is at a premium.
On the other hand, build a 540, then SC it!

Boost rules at altitude.

Cheating? Why do you want to go to a fair fight! HP is HP. It is sometimes better to derive it through boost then big cams and exotic valve trains.

Do both.....and then run it through an alpha SS on an extension box!

[Mr X]

and also the reason the forthcoming Viper boat will be the best running (by that I mean handling, keeping speed aside) 22 we have ever seen.CDMA

Thanks Chris. :wink:

I will be posting pics, videos and some numbers very soon.

[Donziweasel]

Boost rules at altitude.
Cheating? Why do you want to go to a fair fight! HP is HP. It is sometimes better to derive it through boost then big cams and exotic valve trains.
Do both.....and then run it through an alpha SS on an extension box!

I agree.

I would never go to a knife fight with a knife, I would go with a gun. No matter how much you bore and stroke an engine, it will never perform at altitude as it does at sea level.

[Carl C]

There is no such thing as cheating unless you are racing and breaking the rules for your class. People say the same thing about NO2 on street cars when in fact they are just afraid of it. I don't want to rag on my motor until it blows up. I will enjoy the still fairly new reliability a while longer and then build an engine the right way. I'll do it all myself except the block boring. Set back huh? Do they still make the Stern Jack?

[gcarter]

So after eight years of discussing x-dimensions and prop shaft heights, now we are going to go 3D and start talking set backs too?
My guess on the sweet spot?
X-dim, up 1.5 inches from current gen stock,
Prop shaft, up 2.0 inches courtesy of -2 shortie,
and 7.0 inches of set-back, not counting the Bravo, for obvious reasons.
Hmmm. Bet, I'm close. C'mon George, chuck up the 50 cents.
'Could explain why Geoo was so successful.

[Dr. Dan]

:smash: Or the King Cobras allow you to run 80 mph and keep your Hat on?

Doc of Cosmic Krylon :doh::spongebob: :screwy:

[gcarter]

So maybe what Carl might would want to look for is a used Bravo stand off box.
Might perform better than the shorty, not change the handling of the boat, and save some money towards an engine.

[Patti]

I guess I should use Boo Boo's oven instead of Patti's. On the Red Mistress engine, Jamie powder coated some smaller pieces in Patti's oven.
Hope Mick is alright. Many of you remember what I went through last year with my mom's quintuple bypass surgery. Heart conditions are serious.
Carl, if a new engine is not in the works right now, have you considered supercharging the 496 to get the ponies needed for the shorty to make a difference? $5,000-$6000 will get you there in a Procharger or Vortec. Then run it till it blows up and build the 540.:wink:
Oh hell no he didn't! LOL
Jamie has his very own oven out in the shop to do his stuff...he keeps his boys things outta my kitchen :biggrin.:

[Donziweasel]

Hi Patti, so, no powder coating next to the Thanksgiving turkey?

[Rootsy]

Not unless you want to be fumagated and probably dead next to the thanksgiving turkey... That stuff gives off some mighty powerful odors during it's curing time in the oven. BTW... you don't want to move the parts around any more than you have to after putting powder on them...

I do need a much larger oven though...

And I powdercoated most everything that would fit in my shop oven that went on the 361

[BERTRAM BOY]

Oh hell no he didn't! LOL
...he keeps his boys things outta my kitchen :biggrin.:

Patti, that's not a euphemism is it? Oh wait, this is family show.

Sorry, I couldn't resist....:):):)

[Patti]

Patti, that's not a euphemism is it? Oh wait, this is family show.
Sorry, I couldn't resist....:):):)
:eek!: :wink:

[Donziweasel]

Oh hell no he didn't! LOL
Jamie has his very own oven out in the shop to do his stuff...he keeps his boys things outta my kitchen :biggrin.:


Ha ha!:eek!:

[gcarter]

"not change the handling of the boat"
Go out and do a search on "stand off box" on one of the offshore boards, read, and learn. The addition of a stand off box DOES impact handling and it is the reason people rig with them.
Some can be adjusted for height which might erase the need for a shortie,
but you are still skipping the X-dim and CG impact on the handling of the boat.
Take another look at Chris's post, there is more there.
Think 3D friend, 3D. Linear processing isn't going to get it done. Besides, I doubt saving money and investing in a stand-off box really belong in the same sentence.
50 cents coming my way.
Todd, I can afford $0.50.....I offered to buy you a fresh gator lunch if you were to ever get you fat azz by here.
I have seen a number of used stand off boxes for sale at reasonable prices...cheaper than shorties anyway.

[BigGrizzly]

There are a couple of differenced in the TRS boats. First the engine is farther forward fro 7.5 or 11.7 depending which trans you have, then the bravo. The prop is farther aft than the bravo, the prop shaft is lower than the bravo(don't remember how much) The TRS is heavier even without the trans and one3 other difference but a big one, most TRS boats have a different strake design on the hull then the bravo boats. Other than that they are exactly the same:smash:

[Carl C]

No stand off box
No powder coating in the kitchen oven.
No SC for my stock 496.
I will make steering my first priority while I look for a deal on a shorty.
Steering & shorty, if I can swing both this year I will be a happy camper. Right now I'm gonna terrorize Lake Oakland for a couple hours.
Mr. X, Ted, I think everyone is anxiously awaiting some test results!

[blackhawk]

No stand off box
No powder coating in the kitchen oven.
No SC for my stock 496.
I will make steering my first priority while I look for a deal on a shorty.
Steering & shorty, if I can swing both this year I will be a happy camper. Right now I'm gonna terrorize Lake Oakland for a couple hours.
Mr. X, Ted, I think everyone is anxiously awaiting some test results!

Carl, keep an eye out on the OSO classifieds for a shorty. I've seen a few of them go for around $2500 lately but they sell FAST.

[Mr X]

There is NO point in moving the drive back and not raising the propshaft.
The whole point of moving the drive back is so you can go up with the prop.
Yes, moving the drive back IE stand off box or whatever, greatly changes the handling.

[blackhawk]

There is NO point in moving the drive back and not raising the propshaft.
The whole point of moving the drive back is so you can go up with the prop.
Yes, moving the drive back IE stand off box or whatever, greatly changes the handling.

Not trying to disagree but I thought extention boxes were to make the boat "feel" longer for better handling and to get the prop into cleaner water and make it faster. But in doing so this makes the propshaft is now deeper so then people use a shorty or higher X to raise the propshaft?

Just trying to clarify.

[blackhawk]

No stand off box
No powder coating in the kitchen oven.
No SC for my stock 496.
I will make steering my first priority while I look for a deal on a shorty.
Steering & shorty, if I can swing both this year I will be a happy camper. Right now I'm gonna terrorize Lake Oakland for a couple hours.
Mr. X, Ted, I think everyone is anxiously awaiting some test results!

Carl, Mark at BAM has a fully dressed 525 with exhaust. :D

[BigGrizzly]

Good decision.

[The Hedgehog]

Hmmm,

134 responses to a shorty on 22 Question. It is not like the lightbulb has just been discovered.....:welcome::popcorn:

Not a bad deal on that 525 though

[Carl C]

Hmmm,

134 responses to a shorty on 22 Question. It is not like the lightbulb has just been discovered.....:welcome::popcorn:

Not a bad deal on that 525 though I don't mind when a thread just turns to boating talk. How much is the 525? I would still want to swap out the pistons and supercharge it though.

[The Hedgehog]

I don't mind when a thread just turns to boating talk. How much is the 525? I would still want to swap out the pistons and supercharge it though.

That 525 has some good parts. There are folks sticking a Whipple on as is. Dustin makes the only good SC package for it. Be prepared for tons of HP. Like 700+

Last Real Texan is running some nice boost on his 500 EFI. All he did is do the heads (Brodix) and did not go into the lower. He can push a 28 foot boat to 85mph any day. That is loaded down with full fuel. I bet that light load, nice chop and cool fall day he makes it to 90. That kind of a power in a 22. Wow.....:eek!:

[DonziJon]

SO: How many posts does it take to Convince Carl to Pull The Trigger? :hangum: John

CARL: Lets "Get Err Done". I need to know how fast it is. :nilly::nilly:

[Carl C]

SO: How many posts does it take to Convince Carl to Pull The Trigger? :hangum: John

CARL: Lets "Get Err Done". I need to know how fast it is. :nilly::nilly: Send $$$

[blackhawk]

I don't mind when a thread just turns to boating talk. How much is the 525? I would still want to swap out the pistons and supercharge it though.

Supercharge the 525?!!!:eek!: A 525 puts out about 540-550hp and I'm betting close to 800 with monster torque with a whipple. So how fast do you want to go? :D

I think the 525 was $25k.

[Mr X]

Not trying to disagree but I thought extention boxes were to make the boat "feel" longer for better handling and to get the prop into cleaner water and make it faster. But in doing so this makes the propshaft is now deeper so then people use a shorty or higher X to raise the propshaft?
Just trying to clarify.

Yes, exactly.

[onesubdrvr]

....learn to drive a Classic at insane speeds it was never designed to do in the first place...

Just curious, is there any boats in this size that were designed for 80+ mph speeds?

Obviously the Donzi is DESIGNED for 70mph +/- speeds, but what about the other deep V's? are they designed for higher speeds?

What about the river rockets (STV's / etc.) are the designed for speeds in excess of 80?

The bigger boats (30' +) are obviously designed for the higher speeds, because the factory takes them there, just curious on the smaller boats.

Wayne

[blackhawk]

I have seen them out there as fairly fresh take-outs for $18-19K.
With a shortie and STEERING, I would predict a top end of 83-85, based on the power difference between the 500 and the 525.
Whipple would be overkill. Run it for a couple of seasons, learn to drive a Classic at insane speeds it was never designed to do in the first place, and then think about it.

I have seen them in that range too but I THINK this one only has a few hours on it And I 100% agree on the speed estimates.

[blackhawk]

Yes, exactly.

Thanks, just making sure!

Carl, you sure do start some long threads! :D

[onesubdrvr]

Also,

What about a 18', say 450+hp SB, stand off box with a B/H drive,....... could be a hell of a ride :D

Wayne

[The Hedgehog]

I would think hard about the deal Roadtrip SE is talking about. That sounds pretty good

His point about the Whipple and the 525 is a good one too.

[CDMA]

What, no numbers anyone? Common...

Might as all switch to :boat:

CDMA

[ITTLFLI]

Just curious, is there any boats in this size that were designed for 80+ mph speeds?




Designed OR BUILT for these speeds? I doubt any of the v-hulls were designed for these speeds but some could be built/ENGINEERED to withstand them..........:smash:..........and some can't:shocking:

[onesubdrvr]

Designed OR BUILT for these speeds? I doubt any of the v-hulls were designed for these speeds but some could be built/ENGINEERED to withstand them..........:smash:..........and some can't:shocking:
Well, I think I mean designed. To me, built - can be made to go that fast, or cram in that much power - like my Ragazza, hardly the wisest choice for the power I had, but I put it in there and it ran good, but the power was much better suited to an 18.

Designed - hull design + installed power + installed drive = optimum combination for speed, drivability, reliability - so, designing for a 70mph boat, you have maybe one of the best packages that comes in the 22 with the 496ho, bravo drive. To go 80, you have to change something here, and varying any one of these throws the whole combination out of wack. So you can get to 80 with say 125 more hp with the same drive, but to fully optimize the additional 125hp,you need a different drive configuration, or to go even further, by using a extension box / etc. to get it to the right spot for optimum transfer of power, then, maybe change the strakes / etc. to better harness the power - seems like one would be better off designing a hull / combination for 80mph from the start. I guess no matter what, if the 22 came from the factory running 120mph, we'd all want 125 out of it :wink:

I think alot is personal preference and of course, how deep your pockets are. I think to many, just shoving in more HP for speed is the easiest way all around. Unfortunately, as I just stated, alot is personal preference, and while changing the drive may give you an additional 3mph speed, you may not like the way the boat handles with the changed drive. Not that it handles worse or better, but again, it's how one likes the boat themself. Ultimately, to get the maximum efficiency from any combination is going to take lots of money, time, and testing.

I'm still a big fan of the skunk works / etc., and I think is one thing that really makes us (the Donzi guys) kind of unique. We'll do what we can to get the boat to go faster / etc. Kind of like the original hot-rod days when people were experimenting with cam designs, welding on bits here, grinding down there / etc, messing with different carb combinations, mixing and matching trannys and rear ends / etc.

[Dr. Dan]

:smash:Todd I thought we agreed you wouldn't tell anyone I was selling my Stock 500 EFI ?:spongebob:

The guy that's buying my boat wanted it alot slower or detuned for his kids to use back up in Michigan.... he thinks he might just drop a 350 EFI in it 'til the Family gets used to it.

Anyway thanks for not keeping the secret Rooster Boy! :tase:

Doc of Everythings For Sale :screwy:

[BigGrizzly]

As for speed on a 22 Classic, only a few have driven 80 plus in a classic. One thing I can tell you, that is that after 82 the ball game changes drastically. My boat handles very well and I have a ton of hours in it with a large amount of power. What I will tell you is if you think you will cruise at 80+ your sadly mistaken. The first thing that happens is you run out of room in a hurry, then the rogue wakes show up at the most in opportune times. After being at most of the events and living on the water I will say that there will be more accidents then you would imagine. At Cumberland I watched a couple of the Cig boys get out of hand with all their stand off boxes and shorty s and special stuff without hitting 80mph. How many have been in a 22 classic at 5+ feet in the air travailing about 15 yards with no control with the hope to land right. I can tell you it isn't fun. I get that pucker effect. The real reason my boat has the power it does is because that was the cheapest and most available parts combination I could get my hands on at the time. I even reduced the horse power for reasons stated above and for longevity.
Boy is this a good thread and it all started with a shorty:eek!::eek!: We even brough Chris back out of his work place(welcome back).

[Carl C]

I don't have the $ for a repower now. If I did go with a 500 or 525 or whatever I would drop the compression to 8:1 and SC it for big power. For the cost of a baby blue motor I wouldn't be happy with 82 mph. Remember that you do not drive it WFOT all the time. The big power would be there for accelleration and top end when needed and when conditions permit. Again, I don't have 30k or 20k for a repower now. Steering and shorty are my goals this year and hopefully the prop won't need work. You guys have been great sending PMs with sources for the parts. I may go with Imco steering. Dual ram, full hydraulic of course. I still think that I could build a blown 496 to make big power for a lot less but not now. Usually when a thread goes this long it's because everyone is fighting.:shocking:

[BigGrizzly]

Carl, If I were in the same position as you I would do exactly what you are planing. Not to get into a steering discussion I like the Imco and have it on my Criterion. I honestly think almost all the systems available are pretty good. I will say my personal taste I like the look of the Imco, this is subjective, but it is the way I feel.

[RickSE]

What, no numbers anyone? Common...
Might as all switch to :boat:
CDMA

Chris,

Here's some info from a few years back.

http://www.performanceboat.us/forum/showthread.php?t=401&page=3

You might want to post another thread on this. I think you're getting buried with all the chatter in this one.

One of the things I like most about a 22 with power is the ability to get yourself out of a bad situation. I use the power of our boat a lot to get us out of situations where I feel cramped and things are getting too tight. Most people don't have the power to get out but we do.

[yeller]

Carl, just for kicks, call Arizona Speed. They built an 800+ 496HO about a year ago. It'd be nice to know how it's holding out.

[DonziJon]

So lets say you drop a 525SC, or whatever, into the 22 Classic and can get 700+ HP out of it. Does this mean you probably need to Rip Off the deck and Kockpit and put in a Bigger Gas Tank? ....or... does this mean you just can't go exploring the "Big Water" ....such as crossing Lake Michigan or maybe Lake Huron on a nice day? :bonk: John

[Carl C]

Chris,

Here's some info from a few years back.

http://www.performanceboat.us/forum/showthread.php?t=401&page=3

You might want to post another thread on this. I think you're getting buried with all the chatter in this one.

One of the things I like most about a 22 with power is the ability to get yourself out of a bad situation. I use the power of our boat a lot to get us out of situations where I feel cramped and things are getting too tight. Most people don't have the power to get out but we do. A new thread might be a good idea on that. I'll be too busy the next few days to measure but it did kind of get buried. I'm not sure what you mean by the power to get out of cramped situations. Do you mean to pull in front of the pack?


Carl, just for kicks, call Arizona Speed. They built an 800+ 496HO about a year ago. It'd be nice to know how it's holding out. Don't forget Raylar and who knows what they'll have in a couple years. I know yours is Pro-charged but it sounds like you don't drive it much. Have you been out this year?


I took a friend out recently who does most of his boating in a cruiser.
When we got back, he described to his wife that he felt "there was a baby demon trying to get out" under the engine hatch.

I can tell you that there is no comparison between the mid-range punch with these blue motors and the 496. None. This goes for the Scorpion, too.
It is simply amazing. I have done a lot of riding this year with others at rallies and I have been reminded of the very significant difference in power and it what it does to the thrill factor in these boats at all RPMs and MPHs.

I will say again too. 80+ in a 22 is nothing to sniff at. It WILL keep your attention. Mine has for many years and I am only now starting to consider what might be next for the flower pot.

You don't need the SC to have an absolute ball in these. It's an option, but only one option. Besides, Jill won't let me have one... I don't doubt that at all but it's a lot of money and still a 502 based motor. I don't see why I can't build a 496 to run just as well. Mainly I'm saying that for near $30,000 I'd want to pick up more than 8 mph.


So lets say you drop a 525SC, or whatever, into the 22 Classic and can get 700+ HP out of it. Does this mean you probably need to Rip Off the deck and Kockpit and put in a Bigger Gas Tank? ....or... does this mean you just can't go exploring the "Big Water" ....such as crossing Lake Michigan or maybe Lake Huron on a nice day? :bonk: John Would the gas consumption really go up that much? You could cruise at the same speed at a lower rpm. To cross Lake Huron I'd already have to stack gas cans in the bow. (yes, I have room to do that)

[glashole]

why does everything have to be a race..............

[gcarter]

I think I would be w/Poodle on this.....I too think you can build a NA 540 for way less than 15K.
I would imagine there's a lot of respected shops around that would like the business.

[mjw930]

I think I would be w/Poodle on this.....I too think you can build a NA 540 for way less than 15K.
I would imagine there's a lot of respected shops around that would like the business.

Hell, for right around $15K you can buy a crate 502ZZ motor and have my engine guy massage the heads, cam, intake and Marinize it. These motors make about 600HP/600TQ and have a number of them have well over 400 hours on them. He's been doing this package for well over 6 years with a lot of success.

The first ones he did went into a 33 Powerplay back in '01. We pushed that boat past 90 mph before we started playing with props and drive heights. Dialed in it ran 94 MPH. When he got it with the 454's that had been "built" by some car shop in NJ it could barely break 70. With some different cams and some head work he's done some up to 650HP. All engine, no power adders.

If you want his name drop me a PM.

[blackhawk]

I agree you can build more power for less $$$ than a blue motor BUT you may be taking a chance! I have read so many horror stories about engine builds on the various boating forums.

If you go that route I would contact Tyler Crockett and see what he has to offer. He is in Michigan and he may even have some nice upgrades for your 496 since you have already spent the coin on the headers.

[hot shot]

carl c i just got out of the fospital... give me a buzz 734 516 1242 any time

[Carl C]

Thanks for all of the engine tips. I'll have plenty of time to think about this unless my 496 lets go. Mick, glad you're better and I'll call today.

[hot shot]

carl i miss quoted you on what i payed for my unit i think we can make a deal. call me 734 516 1242

[The Hedgehog]

I could have bought 2.5 500EFIs for $30K, but I only needed one, so I paid a a lot less. About $12K for it with 31 hours and a fresh set of NGK long tips, courtesy of Phil Lipschutz. And did I mention it came with a free Blanchard Machinery tech inspection certification sticker on the valve cover? Perfect.
Of course then there was the full Latham steering with braided lines, custom aircraft aluminum helm, Momo steering wheel, full Livorsi redline guages with GPS speedo, customer powder-coated dash plate and stainless bezels, XR Bravo with shortie, Accon pop up cleats, an assortment of six stainless props some of which suffered from some work at Throttle-up, and the labor for stuff I couldn't or didn't want to do. Total tab? About $23K.
Still less than $30K.
You are going to spend some signiifcant jing to make that 496HO build power and torque. Contact Mick for an offline conversation, if you want some real facts on the Raylar, as an example. There are better options...
Better to sell the 496 as a take out when ready, then move on to a blue motor, custom 540, or as BH says, some Tyler Crockett (or other pick your poison and all of the fur engine builder that goes along with it) monstrosity.

$12k is a smokin deal on a Blue motor. Expecially if you know the history. I will take that over a ZZ502 ANY day.

You can do the crate motor thing. You can usually make good power and get away with it. I will say thought that the crate motor is a far cry from one that has been setup by merc racing.

I really like the 500EFI. It packs a nice punch as is and can easily be modified to do more. Much more.

[Formula Jr]

Wayne, you actually open up a Very Large Can of Worms with your question about design and "is it built for" certain speeds. ITTLFLI parsed the question correctly.

The classic straight 24 deadrise Vee is a horribly inefficient design compared to the CAD and hydrodynamic created boats of the 80's and later. No one used a computer to draw the lines of the 22s. It is through serendipity and an amazing about of tweaking that these antiques of design can compete against any modern hull design Given the same Power.

For instance, your Ragazza, is a better designed hull than any of the Classics. But it wasn't intended to be a Sport Boat so it isn't built to the same level of "Shake and Bake" that a Classic 18 or 22 is. So if you ran it the same way as an 18 or a 22, the whole boat's interior would fall apart, the soles would collapse, the motor would rip itself out, and the whole thing would flex itself till it tore itself apart. The hull was designed to be more efficient at parting water, but the entire boat was designed as a family cruiser.

To make to point more clear, lets do a thought experiment.

Say you cut the entire deck off your boat and gutted the inside and have it the same weight and freeboard as a 22. Then fabricated a nice negative shear deck with a huge fore deck and moved all the seating and controls back to the new CG. Further say that you laminated another few layers of glass to the hull, added a bulkhead, and doubled up the stringers and reinforced the transom.

Now lets give it the SAME power plants and drives that the fast 22's are running.

You would have a faster and more stable boat in seas under two footers. You would also run faster in the larger seas, slightly less stable, and still hold together. The experience would be teeth shattering, yet you would run faster given the same power.

[Donziweasel]

Without someone throwing a death threat my way, has anyone ever considered marinizing a Chevy 572 crate? 720 hp and 685 ft-lb torque on pump gas. Compression is way high though 12:1. Torque curve is pretty flat.

[BUIZILLA]

the 572-620 would work :cool:

[Carl C]

Lots of possibilities. I'm pretty excited about Mr. X's Viper boat being almost done. I'm waiting for quotes from two sources on the shorty and have been talking with Mick. I think I know where to get a good deal on the Imco steering too. It may be a little while.

[ITTLFLI]

Without someone throwing a death threat my way, has anyone ever considered marinizing a Chevy 572 crate? 720 hp and 685 ft-lb torque on pump gas. Compression is way high though 12:1. Torque curve is pretty flat.

I think Hotboat or Powerboat did an article on this over a year ago. Pretty sure it was the pump gas version though. They were some rockin powerplants!

[onesubdrvr]

Wayne, you actually open up a Very Large Can of Worms with your question about design and "is it built for" certain speeds. ITTLFLI parsed the question correctly.

The classic straight 24 deadrise Vee is a horribly inefficient design compared to the CAD and hydrodynamic created boats of the 80's and later. No one used a computer to draw the lines of the 22s. It is through serendipity and an amazing about of tweaking that these antiques of design can compete against any modern hull design Given the same Power.

For instance, your Ragazza, is a better designed hull than any of the Classics. But it wasn't intended to be a Sport Boat so it isn't built to the same level of "Shake and Bake" that a Classic 18 or 22 is. So if you ran it the same way as an 18 or a 22, the whole boat's interior would fall apart, the soles would collapse, the motor would rip itself out, and the whole thing would flex itself till it tore itself apart. The hull was designed to be more efficient at parting water, but the entire boat was designed as a family cruiser.

To make to point more clear, lets do a thought experiment.

Say you cut the entire deck off your boat and gutted the inside and have it the same weight and freeboard as a 22. Then fabricated a nice negative shear deck with a huge fore deck and moved all the seating and controls back to the new CG. Further say that you laminated another few layers of glass to the hull, added a bulkhead, and doubled up the stringers and reinforced the transom.

Now lets give it the SAME power plants and drives that the fast 22's are running.

You would have a faster and more stable boat in seas under two footers. You would also run faster in the larger seas, slightly less stable, and still hold together. The experience would be teeth shattering, yet you would run faster given the same power.
Teeth shattering is an understatement, and one (of many) reasons I chose to get rid of the Ragazza - at one of the runs, I had the Ragazza, and LastTango had his 18. We ran the St. Johns River on Friday afternoon in the Ragazza, and it ran well, solid 60. On our way back, we were going into lake George, and my teeth were rattling. The wind had kicked up, and it was pretty choppy. However, in the 18, I still got bounced around, but it didn't "hurt" me. Again with the Angel Aid poker run, that was REAL snotty, and there was a point where I had to just putz across the river, because once I got any speed up, my teeth were rattling. So, I get what you're saying,... esentially the classics were (are still) built like tanks - wave crushers, so why they may not be efficient, you won't be pissing blood the day after running in 3' seas; solid, but you give up some speed for comfort (again discussed 100's of times comparing the 16's to other 18's, 18's to other brand 22's / etc.) ride wise.

Makes perfect sense, thanks.

That all being said, it seems like in the 20' range, 60-70 is the speed range targeted by manufacturers of speed boats (not counting the river racers STV's / etc.), but is there any manufacturers out there that go out to produce a boat to go say 85 in the same length (again, not counting river racers). If not, is it that there is too much liability? Or is it that the power / weight ratio - just like the example above - It's easier to get just speed out of the river racers, but don't try to take 'em out when it's more that 1' and snotty, and to get a good heavy boat that you can comfortably take out in 2 footers at 75mph, would take too much power for the person looking at a boat in the 20' range (does that make any sense?? example, if you want to go 90, the cost for the power would justify a bigger boat that would handle everything better)?

Sorry so many silly questions, I'm just trying to figure out something on my end.

Wayne

ps I am still holding out for the right Donzi, unfortunately I let one slip between my fingers recently; the hull I wanted, the drive I wanted, the color I wanted, etc, just as well though as I'm still not quite ready for the job.

[BigGrizzly]

Sorry Wayne but Stickum is only illegal in football:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

Sorry Wayne but Stickum is only illegal in football:wink:
Ahh yes, the slip between my fingers,... :wink:

Well, it happens even with stickum,..... I'm actually just taking my time this go 'round, making sure all my ducks are in a row. :yes:

[firstoffshore]

Carl C,

Did you ever end up adding the IMCO 2" shorty to the 496HO? If so, how much speed did you pick up? I too am currently in the same dilemma, long before repower (currently at 100 hours), at 74-75 MPH with the stock Bravo lower and engine package. It would be great to be closer to 80 MPH much like the Shelby model.

[Carl C]

"Carl C,

Did you ever end up adding the IMCO 2" shorty to the 496HO? If so, how much speed did you pick up? I too am currently in the same dilemma, long before repower (currently at 100 hours), at 74-75 MPH with the stock Bravo lower and engine package. It would be great to be closer to 80 MPH much like the Shelby model."

Wow, this is an oldie! A lot has changed on my boat since. It now has a 525EFI & XR upper/Imco -2 lower. The shorty is a great addition to these boats with either engine. It is worth a solid 2 mph and improves handling by making the boat run flatter due to the higher leverage point of the prop. AFAIK everyone who has put one on a 22C has been happy with it. I would suggest a Bravo 1 prop with it. Maybe a 28p? (They are over rated in pitch by at least one #). Go for it.

[firstoffshore]

Thanks. I am several years behind you. All that it takes is time and money. I appreciate the update.