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View Full Version : Bravo 1 Drive Shower Poll



Carl C
05-30-2008, 09:49 AM
I am trying to decide if I should install a drive shower on my 22C
3 year old thread. It's done!

glashole
05-30-2008, 10:00 AM
the cost about the same as one solid day of boating, and they are easy to install

they look cool too

mjw930
05-30-2008, 10:02 AM
Carl,

You'll get all kinds of anecdotal responses but IMHO the $150 or so you spend is cheap insurance. There is no downside to a drive shower regardless of what some on other boards have posted. Unless you are running 90+ mph the minute amount of additional drag will never be noticed.

harbormaster
05-30-2008, 10:05 AM
They are so inexpensive and the pluses of running them are so many, in my opinion its foolish to not run one.

MOP
05-30-2008, 10:12 AM
I agree with the above! Also note put your hand on your drive after running it a short time on a hose, you will be surprised just how hot it is with -0- load!!

Phil

roadtrip se
05-30-2008, 10:55 AM
Carl,
You'll get all kinds of anecdotal responses but IMHO the $150 or so you spend is cheap insurance. There is no downside to a drive shower regardless of what some on other boards have posted. Unless you are running 90+ mph the minute amount of additional drag will never be noticed.

Well Mark, we share at least one side of an opinion in the appreciation of fine Formula SS rigs. Beyond that, well, here we go again.

I agree having a drive shower is a no brainer for most rigs and cheap insurance. I need to get one on the Scorpion.

BUT, on the SE, after spending hours modifying a SIMREK Halo to work on the shortie XR combo, it scrubbed 4-5 miles per hour. So I run without one.

And the SE does not run 90, at least not yet...

BERTRAM BOY
05-30-2008, 11:37 AM
A friend of mine has this cap on his Bravo and really likes it.


http://www.getrealperformance.com/ProductGroupDetails.aspx?ProductGroupID=24

steve74
05-30-2008, 11:40 AM
Just installed a pair of Simrek showers on my Doral. With the X dimension up 2 inches they should be a welcome edition.

Cuda
05-30-2008, 11:41 AM
Well Mark, we share at least one side of an opinion in the appreciation of fine Formula SS rigs. Beyond that, well, here we go again.
I agree having a drive shower is a no brainer for most rigs and cheap insurance. I need to get one on the Scorpion.
BUT, on the SE, after spending hours modifying a SIMREK Halo to work on the shortie XR combo, it scrubbed 4-5 miles per hour. So I run without one.
And the SE does not run 90, at least not yet...
4 or 5 mph?? I believe I could drag an oar in the water, and not lose that much.

BUIZILLA
05-30-2008, 11:43 AM
ya don't need a poll for a no brainer... :nilly:

Last Real Texan
05-30-2008, 11:50 AM
I am trying to decide if I should install a drive shower on my 22C
I have one extra, cheap if you want it . It is a rex marine shower with the clamshell pickup $ 50 and its yours


Bryan

Carl C
05-30-2008, 12:19 PM
They are so inexpensive and the pluses of running them are so many, in my opinion its foolish to not run one. Scot, you being the site owner and all I always give your opinion a little extra weight.


I have one extra, cheap if you want it . It is a rex marine shower with the clamshell pickup $ 50 and its yours


Bryan Do the pick-ups mount to the cavitation plate? I would want one with the pick-up low enough to be sure it's working at speed. I need to head in to work soon and will get back with you on this if that's OK. No problem with the price.

gcarter
05-30-2008, 12:29 PM
The Minx had one....$60.00 on eBay.....very effective, it worked very well and kept the drive in good shape.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24272&d=1159816499

The Testa Rossa has one too...can't remember the brand but uses a single pickup and cap to miss the hydraulic steering.

Last Real Texan
05-30-2008, 12:42 PM
Scot, you being the site owner and all I always give your opinion a little extra weight.

Do the pick-ups mount to the cavitation plate? I would want one with the pick-up low enough to be sure it's working at speed. I need to head in to work soon and will get back with you on this if that's OK. No problem with the price.
No problemo....Here is a link to the Model and pick up.....Heck I'll even ship for free......http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=456132&Category_Code=driveshowerflex

TXDONZI
05-30-2008, 12:50 PM
Last weekend I was running the river and cruised for say 4-5 miles at 40-50mph varying with a few WOT short burst. The wife had me pull over for her to take a girl break and stood on top of the drive. She commented right away "this things kinda hot" I asked how hot... like holding a cup of coffee? "not really but close" was her answer.

Is that excessively hot for that sort of run?

MOP
05-30-2008, 12:52 PM
Up on Boat Freaks there is a Bravo for sale with the water for the shower tapped right out of the drives water passage. Very neat install and -0- extra drag, at speed the drive supplies a lot of pressure. I know, when I installed the Diesel X I had to put a better gasket on my sea stainer and I do not come near the speeds that most 22's do! Randy had stated some real high pressures as speed increased.
Boat Freaks link! http://forums.boatfreaks.org/showthread.php?t=9238 You may have to register to view.

Phil

roadtrip se
05-30-2008, 12:53 PM
4 or 5 mph?? I believe I could drag an oar in the water, and not lose that much.

Dang it, that will teach me to not log-in and miss out on the Ignore feature that Cuda occupies in my set-up.

So, my first instinct was to respond with some equally brilliant comment similar to the one Joe posted. Nah, we will occupy a different level.

Couple of simple questions for ya Joe:

1) Does your boat have 500 horsepower?
2) Do you run an XR shortie?
3) Do you run large pitch props?

Then how do you think you have any idea of what my test results were,
both with the shower on and off during back to back runs in identical conditions? Um, that’s right, you don’t.

I did a significant amount of my rigging at Eliminator Boats of Texas and they stated that they had run into the same problem on the cats and that they typically plumbed the coolers on their boats into the engine cooling system to keep it from happening.

As for the oar, I have a few suggestions on where you might place that.
PM me if you would like more details.

mjw930
05-30-2008, 01:21 PM
Carl doesn't have an XR shortie or any need to modify the stock cooler so it's a moot point.

I used 90MPH because that's what one of the Simrek reps told me a number of years ago at the Miami show.

RedDog
05-30-2008, 01:46 PM
OK - since most of us climb out of the water by using the drive, do the showers get in the way or complicate matters?

roadtrip se
05-30-2008, 02:25 PM
Carl doesn't have an XR shortie or any need to modify the stock cooler so it's a moot point.

I used 90MPH because that's what one of the Simrek reps told me a number of years ago at the Miami show.

No, not really. I already stated that I felt it was a good idea for MOST applications, including our Scorpion boat with a stock Bravo XZ which needs one.

But, they don't work for all applications, including mine. Somebody called bull, so we happily provided more details.

As for the 90mph, it might as well be 190mph, because the hardware is going have a different impact on each application.

blackhawk
05-30-2008, 02:40 PM
I run this for a shower. ZERO drag and you know your drive is always getting plenty of water regardless of trim position and speed.

roadtrip se
05-30-2008, 02:42 PM
OK - since most of us climb out of the water by using the drive, do the showers get in the way or complicate matters?

and the pickups can be sharp depending on which brand you install, but not really a big deal for those who are used to stepping around props and the like.

Cuda
05-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Dang it, that will teach me to not log-in and miss out on the Ignore feature that Cuda occupies in my set-up.
So, my first instinct was to respond with some equally brilliant comment similar to the one Joe posted. Nah, we will occupy a different level.
Couple of simple questions for ya Joe:
1) Does your boat have 500 horsepower?
2) Do you run an XR shortie?
3) Do you run large pitch props?
Then how do you think you have any idea of what my test results were,
both with the shower on and off during back to back runs in identical conditions? Um, that’s right, you don’t.
I did a significant amount of my rigging at Eliminator Boats of Texas and they stated that they had run into the same problem on the cats and that they typically plumbed the coolers on their boats into the engine cooling system to keep it from happening.
As for the oar, I have a few suggestions on where you might place that.
PM me if you would like more details.
If it had 500 horses, I'd expect the oar to have less effect, so what's your point?
Would a shorty make the oar harder to pull? I think not.
What does the size of the prop have to do with it?

I'm always available, if you feel the need to show me where to place the oar.

Damn, I wish your ignore feature was working. I wish they had a pompous know it all ignore feature.

gcarter
05-30-2008, 03:00 PM
OK - since most of us climb out of the water by using the drive, do the showers get in the way or complicate matters?
Just raise the drive about half way and then you have a much more effective surface (the rear face of the drive) to climb on anyway.

As far as generating heat w/no or little load, just remember that these are helical cut bevel gears that are always sliding one face against another which does inheirently generate more heat but are much quiter.
Doesn't one of the heavy duty Merc drives use straight cut bevel gears???
(cooler running and stronger but noisier??)

roadtrip se
05-30-2008, 04:05 PM
I wish they had a pompous know it all ignore feature.
and name calling. I think I will take you off of the old ignore list, so I can revel in the aura and greatness that is the Cuda. Thanks for you comments and keeping the conversation at a high level of class, but speak up, because it is hard to hear you through the seat of your jeans.

slapshot11
05-30-2008, 04:07 PM
I have a 22C with a 502 and didn't see any decrease in MPH when I installed the SIMREK on the Bravo 1. I'm with the school of thought that it's cheap insurance.

Cuda
05-30-2008, 04:49 PM
I have a 22C with a 502 and didn't see any decrease in MPH when I installed the SIMREK on the Bravo 1. I'm with the school of thought that it's cheap insurance.
As far as I can tell, RT is the only one who lost 4 or 5 mph.

BigGrizzly
05-30-2008, 05:49 PM
Actually that is not entirely true! We have taken off external drive showers on several boats with shorties and deep drives both V hull and cats because of speed loss the most significant was a twin engine cat with over 6mph. The bravo and XR need showers so we install internal ones. Internal meaning runs of a water pump. Since I have a TRS i don't have to have one. As for trips speed loss I can verify at least 4 mph from the before and after. On a stock application the loss is not as much. The higher the speed potential the more loss it will have.

Air 22
05-30-2008, 06:07 PM
ya don't need a poll for a no brainer... :nilly:

No poll???...How about a TOOL then...:smash::wink:


http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=driveshower-itscool

No speed loss...but then again not much speed to begin with....:)

blackhawk
05-30-2008, 06:52 PM
I wish they had a pompous know it all ignore feature.

If you did that you would miss half the posts on here!

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/onesickpantera/couchsmilie.gif

mjw930
05-30-2008, 06:56 PM
Actually that is not entirely true! We have taken off external drive showers on several boats with shorties and deep drives both V hull and cats because of speed loss the most significant was a twin engine cat with over 6mph. The bravo and XR need showers so we install internal ones. Internal meaning runs of a water pump. Since I have a TRS i don't have to have one. As for trips speed loss I can verify at least 4 mph from the before and after. On a stock application the loss is not as much. The higher the speed potential the more loss it will have.

Griz,

That's why I made the admittedly arbitrary 90mph comment that launched the fireworks between SE and Cuda. I never meant it to be a controversial statement.

What I meant to imply was that for a basically stock Donzi, like Carl's, there's no downside to the drive shower, I doubt he could ever measure the performance hit. Even SE and I agree on that :propeller:

One things for sure, when you start getting up past 70 mph things change and when you get past 90 they change in a hurry. A friend was dialing in a 38', 105 MPH Fountain for a customer and was working on water pressure issues. They changed the brand of water pickups to a new brand sticking down 1/2" lower than the previous. The boat went from a good running 105 MPH boat with low water pressure to a totally out of control mess that couldn't top 100. It was so bad he though he had thrown a blade. He knocked 1/4" off the pickups and found the sweet spot between water pressure and handling getting it back to a smooth 105 and getting enough water to cool the motors. No one expected that much change from those new pickups, not even the factory. Just goes to show that it's not always intuitive.

mjw930
05-30-2008, 06:58 PM
If you did that you would miss half the posts on here!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/onesickpantera/couchsmilie.gif
:rofl:

Ain't it the truth.

Cuda
05-30-2008, 07:30 PM
If you did that you would miss half the posts on here!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/onesickpantera/couchsmilie.gif
:yes::biggrin.:

Carl C
05-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Blackhawk, you were a big supporter of showers on the Speedwake thread where Canada Jeff showed no temperature difference. Where does your water supply come from? I seem to have an ample supply of water from the raw water pump and don't see why some couldn't be diverted. Also, I don't use my drive as a boarding ladder and I'll be adding power steering so can't interfere with that. I appreciate the info but am sorry to see the tempers flaring again. How can you verify that the shower is working at high speed when there is no way to see it? You just have to have the faith? So Todd doesn't use one even running 500 hp and he's not the only one I've seen claim a speed loss. What a mess. It's going to take some time to sort this out.

gcarter
05-30-2008, 08:48 PM
How can you verify that the shower is working at high speed when there is no way to see it?
Do you always boat by yourself? Can't you have a friend take a look or drive while you take a look?

If you use a transom pickup, you can use the water picked up by the drive to run the shower.

yeller
05-30-2008, 09:16 PM
Do you always boat by yourself? Can't you have a friend take a look or drive while you take a look?

OK.....let me know when you've hit 70 and I'll hang out the back and take a look.......:eek!: :biggrin:

yeller
05-30-2008, 09:25 PM
Here's my 1/2cent of advice.

I take a lot of stock in what my cousin has done, because he's been running fast boats since he was a kid. The boat he has now is similiar to our Classics and he put a drive shower on at a little over 100hrs. He now has over 1500hrs on the drive and it has never, ever been apart. He changes the oil every 75hrs with the Merc oil and he has over 700hrs on the drive with at least 550hp.

That's good enough for me. For $150 why take the chance.
If you want to use the drive as a step, get a cap type. I have the one Air22 mentioned (and it won't get in the way of hydraulic steering).
If your worried about speed loss, tap it off your raw water system. More than enough pressure there.

LRT's offer is a smokin' good deal.

gcarter
05-30-2008, 09:34 PM
OK.....let me know when you've hit 70 and I'll hang out the back and take a look.......:eek!: :biggrin:
Well, if one doesn't have a back bone, maybe another boat running alongside?

yeller
05-30-2008, 09:49 PM
Well, if one doesn't have a back bone, maybe another boat running alongside?

Ouch.....nice comeback :)

From what I've heard about how Carl drives though, I don't think you'd be able to hang on.


MAN OVERBOARD! :nilly:

Air 22
05-30-2008, 10:22 PM
As a buddy drives you can see how well the drive shower works with the boat just on plane. Carefully w life jacket on...lay on eng hatch...hold onto lifting eye..look over the stern. I was supprised to see the amount of water cascading on the drive cap..impressive:cool:

gold-n-rod
05-31-2008, 05:51 AM
Yes, I had Tony drive my boat with me hanging off the back. I was white knuckling it, to be sure!!!!!!!!!!!!

gcarter
05-31-2008, 06:05 AM
I did it at 55-60 MPH...I can't imagine there would be a lot of water production difference at 70 MPH.
It is an interesting view.:eek:

DonCig
05-31-2008, 06:14 AM
A couple of weeks ago I sat down with the owner of Innovative Marine (Rich Meister) of Lake Ozark, MO.
I do believe that Rich is manufacturing the fines drive shower on the market. Hydro Cool II
http://www.innovativemarine.net/index2.html
It is probably over engineered, but it is the best design that I have looked at.
I am trying to help Rich reduce his manufacturing costs on this unit; but it is the one that I would buy if I wanted the best.

Keep up the debate while I watch from the sidelines.

DonCig

Trueser
05-31-2008, 07:37 AM
This shower looks better.This is the one that Mark is running.

http://shopping.rexmar.com/Merchant2...de=itscoolflow

The water pickup should not effect speed.

Are we going to need another group hug?Just think if REP Points were still around.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52376&highlight=rex

Trueser
05-31-2008, 07:58 AM
Carl,
something to look forward too:

Carl C
05-31-2008, 08:01 AM
As a responsible captain there is no way I'd let someone hang off the back of the boat at 60-70 mph. Maybe a skier on a short rope or I may be able to mount a camera back there. I have some cheap 12 v cams at my store and one will be getting replaced with a better one. Again I appreciate the input but I stay busy week-ends and it will take a while to read all the links and stuff. Even though the poll is running away with the pro shower crowd there have been some legitimate doubts raised. I don't want to lose even a little top end, I worked hard to get over 75 and I plan to run mid 80s at least within 2-3 years. I still like Blackhawks set-up which isn't dragging another pick-up in the water. I will post some pics of my drive when I get time. It has 3 seasons and 160 hours and I've never cleaned it except with soapy water. Some say it looks like it's been running too hot but I don't think it looks too bad for 3 years worth of mineral deposits. I have to head to work now. Go Red Wings.

mjw930
05-31-2008, 08:46 AM
As a responsible captain there is no way I'd let someone hang off the back of the boat at 60-70 mph. Maybe a skier on a short rope or I may be able to mount a camera back there. I have some cheap 12 v cams at my store and one will be getting replaced with a better one. Again I appreciate the input but I stay busy week-ends and it will take a while to read all the links and stuff. Even though the poll is running away with the pro shower crowd there have been some legitimate doubts raised. I don't want to lose even a little top end, I worked hard to get over 75 and I plan to run mid 80s at least within 2-3 years. I still like Blackhawks set-up which isn't dragging another pick-up in the water. I will post some pics of my drive when I get time. It has 3 seasons and 160 hours and I've never cleaned it except with soapy water. Some say it looks like it's been running too hot but I don't think it looks too bad for 3 years worth of mineral deposits. I have to head to work now. Go Red Wings.

It sounds like you have your answer, run a shower but pick up the water from the existing sea water pump on the motor.

Install the below one that comes with everything but a "T" fitting for you sea water hose and the internal line that would run from that T to the thru-hull and you're set. A cooler drive without any additional possibility of speed loss.

http://www.innovativemarine.net/mediac/400_0/media/TTKit.JPG

http://www.innovativemarine.net/25501.html

The Hedgehog
05-31-2008, 09:00 AM
I did it at 55-60 MPH...I can't imagine there would be a lot of water production difference at 70 MPH.
It is an interesting view.:eek:

It is an interesting view!

I am going to an internal shower like Griz was mentioning. No parasitic loss and good cooling.

I had an external shower once. It looked important but I am not sure how good it did. I had to shorten the pickup as it caused some slippage

Mr X
05-31-2008, 09:10 AM
We had a Donzi 38ZX come back to our shop afer 3 years of running with twin Mercury 575's.
The owner had installed drive showers himself, and tied them into
the seawater pump.

We discovered that he mistakenly had tapped into the hot exhaust water.

He had been showering his drives with hot exhaust water for 3 years!!!


We took his drives to Innovation Marine, (one of the leading outdrive shops in the coumtry) They completely disassembled his drives.

There were no sings of any abnormal wear or damage at all after 250 hours of
run time!

Thats when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers.

p729lws
05-31-2008, 09:11 AM
A friend of mine has this cap on his Bravo and really likes it.
http://www.getrealperformance.com/ProductGroupDetails.aspx?ProductGroupID=24


That's a nice looking piece!

chappy
05-31-2008, 09:18 AM
We has a Donzi 38ZX come back to our shop afer 3 years of running with 575's.
The owner had installed installed drive showers himself, and tied them into
the seawater pump.

We discovered that he mistakenly had tapped into the hot exhaust water.

He had been showering his drives with hot exhaust water for 3 years!!!


We took his drives to Innovation Marine, (one of the leading outdrive shops in the coumtry) They completely disassembled his drives.

There were no sings of any abnormal wear or damage at all after 250 hours of
run time!

Thats when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers.

It doesn't matter what side of the debate you're on, that's a funny story right there.:fam:

blackhawk
05-31-2008, 09:21 AM
Blackhawk, you were a big supporter of showers on the Speedwake thread where Canada Jeff showed no temperature difference. Where does your water supply come from? I seem to have an ample supply of water from the raw water pump and don't see why some couldn't be diverted. Also, I don't use my drive as a boarding ladder and I'll be adding power steering so can't interfere with that. I appreciate the info but am sorry to see the tempers flaring again. How can you verify that the shower is working at high speed when there is no way to see it? You just have to have the faith? So Todd doesn't use one even running 500 hp and he's not the only one I've seen claim a speed loss. What a mess. It's going to take some time to sort this out.

Carl, I just splice a "T-fitting" on the output hose of my sea-water pump and I run the Innovative Marine Hydro Cool. Like I said with this design you know your drive is getting water. No, I have never measured drive oil temps before and after like CJ did but I have to think a properly working drive shower would drop the temps. But I could be wrong.

Bottom line, it can't hurt!

p729lws
05-31-2008, 09:21 AM
Here is a another link for the "Hydro Cool II"

http://www.cfm-tech.com/Catalog/outdrive_coolers_532485_products.htm

Blackhawk's has the optional top supply fitting as did mine.

Dan

p729lws
05-31-2008, 09:33 AM
We had a Donzi 38ZX come back to our shop afer 3 years of running with twin Mercury 575's.
The owner had installed drive showers himself, and tied them into
the seawater pump.
We discovered that he mistakenly had tapped into the hot exhaust water.
He had been showering his drives with hot exhaust water for 3 years!!!
We took his drives to Innovation Marine, (one of the leading outdrive shops in the coumtry) They completely disassembled his drives.
There were no sings of any abnormal wear or damage at all after 250 hours of
run time!
Thats when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers.

How much does the cooling water temperature rise? I don't think I ever stuck my hand in there to find out.

Dan

gcarter
05-31-2008, 10:27 AM
It is an interesting view!
You know, you don't have to take long and study it for a disertation, you just want to get an idea how much water it's producing and whether it's covering the top of the drive.
Shouldn't take more than 3-5 seconds.

I just had an idea.....since I'm running (future tense) a transom pickup, sea strainer, and pressure relief valve before the sea water pump, I can feed the pressure relief valve discharge to the drive throuh the transom......:smash::propeller:
The faster you go, the more water is being discharged through the relief valve and overboard to the shower.
That way there's no potential of robbing any cooling water to the engine.

Trueser
05-31-2008, 10:51 AM
We had a Donzi 38ZX come back to our shop afer 3 years of running with twin Mercury 575's.
The owner had installed drive showers himself, and tied them into
the seawater pump.
We discovered that he mistakenly had tapped into the hot exhaust water.
He had been showering his drives with hot exhaust water for 3 years!!!
We took his drives to Innovation Marine, (one of the leading outdrive shops in the coumtry) They completely disassembled his drives.
There were no sings of any abnormal wear or damage at all after 250 hours of
run time!
Thats when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers.

Warm water is better than NO water. How hot is the water running out the back. What did His exhast manifolds look like?

mjw930
05-31-2008, 11:30 AM
Warm water is better than NO water. How hot is the water running out the back. What did His exhast manifolds look like?

That's kind of what I was thinking. Even water on the hot side of the plumbing would be cooler than the internal temps on the upper unit.

I'm from the camp that thinks it can't hurt so as long as how you do it doesn't hurt performance what's the down side?

Who knows, maybe this whole drive shower thing is a scam to sell more hardware :wink:

DonziJon
05-31-2008, 12:30 PM
So is this "Drive Running Hot" thingy a problem only with Bravo drives and Big horsepower? On my Alpha I, the raw (cold) water coming up from the lower unit runs through a passage about an inch in diameter, and within a half inch of the upper gear case and oil gallery in the drive.

What I'm wondering is, if overheating of the upper gear case was a problem at all, wouldn't Mercury have fixed it decades ago? How long has the Alpha I been around, virtually unchanged? After all, it seems reasonable to think Mercury would be concerned about their reputation if drives were burning out on a regular basis.

Just playing devils advocate. :lookaroun: :lookaroun:

DonziJon
05-31-2008, 12:43 PM
Heated exhaust water coming out the exhaust tips will be NO More than the running temperature of the engine coolant, say 165-190*F if you are running in Fresh water (open cooling) and should be a lot less if running in Salt. I would expect the crankcase oil temp of the engine would not be much more than that either.

Always something to think about. :bonk:

zimm17
05-31-2008, 01:57 PM
My cavitation plate for the imco shorty came with water pickup holes already drilled in it. Can anyone tell me what kind of pickup would fit? And what kind of cap would work with my XS steering?

VetteLT193
05-31-2008, 03:00 PM
My cavitation plate for the imco shorty came with water pickup holes already drilled in it. Can anyone tell me what kind of pickup would fit? And what kind of cap would work with my XS steering?

Imco makes drive showers, so I have to take the logical guess that it's setup for their product. I'd call them first...

yeller
05-31-2008, 05:16 PM
What I'm wondering is, if overheating of the upper gear case was a problem at all, wouldn't Mercury have fixed it decades ago?

Well they did go to finned top caps, so there must be at least a bit of a known problem.

DonziJon
05-31-2008, 06:02 PM
Well they did go to finned top caps, so there must be at least a bit of a known problem.

SO:... Are you talkin Alphas or Bravos? I have a brand new "Mercruiser" Alpha that has not been on any boat yet. I bought it last October. It ain't got no stinkin fins on it. It looks just like my '86 Alpha. ??? :hangum:

Only difference is: the '86 was 1:50. The new one is 1:47. :confused: :confused:

Carl C
05-31-2008, 06:04 PM
There is a lot of good info here and I appreciate it but it's still gonna take awhile to wade through it all. I worked all day and have people coming over tonight to watch the Wings on the 64" high-def! The confusing thing is that I have people who know what they are talking about swearing by drive showers and people who know what they are talking about saying don't bother:confused::confused::confused::confused::con fused:. When Mr. X says "that's when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers" I have to give that some weight. Also the argument that they can't hurt isn't entirely true because they can cause some top speed loss. The ammount of loss is debatable but I do believe they can cause some loss. So I think if I install one (which I'm not 100% convinced to do yet) I think I will plumb it into the seawater pump. Here are pics. I have never cleaned the drive so this is 3 years/160 hours worth of deposits.

DonziJon
05-31-2008, 06:13 PM
Now that we're talkin gear ratios...if I have a 1:5 ratio drive..Is the prop turning "faster" than the crankshaft.?? I keep getting confused. :bonk:

Maybe another way to think about gearboxes might be..IS a 1.5 Ratio a "Step Up" gearbox? .....I thought someone mentioned gear ratios..:doh: In the "OLD" (Recip Days) days, Unlimited hydroplanes had "Step Up" boxes.

Mr X
05-31-2008, 06:18 PM
My drives get showered every time I take a leak off the back of the boat, but I digress...
The water pickup through the cav plate style is the crappiest way to go IMO. FWIW, I experienced the performance numbers RT duscussed with him, so if anyone has a spare oar they'd like to bring with them when they visit Todd, I'd suggest you do cause I'll stand next to him during this one.. You won't like what I do with the oar though :D :D :D
IMO IF you want to run a shower, go for it. However, the through the cav plate style is about the least effective, most prone to loss of water pressure style just due to the design.. Break out a couple bucks, get the tee, insert it (rather than an oar) in the PROPER location, and enjoy your new toy..
Food for thought: Walk the docks at ANY poker run, and count the amount of drive showers.. Last one I was at, I didn't have to put the boat soda down nor take off my shoes to do so...
Back to the cones, Poodle out!!

Guess there will be three of us standing there side by side. :bighug:

DonziJon
05-31-2008, 06:21 PM
There is a lot of good info here and I appreciate it but it's still gonna take awhile to wade through it all. I worked all day and have people coming over tonight to watch the Wings on the 64" high-def! The confusing thing is that I have people who know what they are talking about swearing by drive showers and people who know what they are talking about saying don't bother:confused::confused::confused::confused::con fused:. When Mr. X says "that's when I stopped thinking about installing drive showers" I have to give that some weight. Also the argument that they can't hurt isn't entirely true because they can cause some top speed loss. The ammount of loss is debatable but I do believe they can cause some loss. So I think if I install one (which I'm not 100% convinced to do yet) I think I will plumb it into the seawater pump. Here are pics. I have never cleaned the drive so this is 3 years/160 hours worth of deposits.

Carl: You are on the right track. I would give Mr X some BIG consideration. I don't mean to dis-credit anyone on this board but I think Mr X has some practicle experience beyond us wanabes.. John

EDIT: Carl: Drill a hole through your cavitation plate..and penetrate the Merc proprietary coating under the paint..and the paint: LET THE CORROSION BEGIN.

Last Real Texan
05-31-2008, 07:32 PM
Nobody has done it yet so I will.....................:popcorn:




Tex

Cuda
05-31-2008, 07:51 PM
So is this "Drive Running Hot" thingy a problem only with Bravo drives and Big horsepower? On my Alpha I, the raw (cold) water coming up from the lower unit runs through a passage about an inch in diameter, and within a half inch of the upper gear case and oil gallery in the drive.
What I'm wondering is, if overheating of the upper gear case was a problem at all, wouldn't Mercury have fixed it decades ago? How long has the Alpha I been around, virtually unchanged? After all, it seems reasonable to think Mercury would be concerned about their reputation if drives were burning out on a regular basis.
Just playing devils advocate. :lookaroun: :lookaroun:
I bought a used Alpha drive, that did not have a water impeller in it, so obviously, they must have been running a Bravo style water pump, with a transom pick up. I never believed that quarter in pipe running up through the outdrive, provided much cooling, compared to the leg of the drive itself being in the water. Btw, I put an impeller in the drive before I used it, since I wasn't running a Bravo style pump.

Air 22
05-31-2008, 08:07 PM
My cavitation plate for the imco shorty came with water pickup holes already drilled in it. Can anyone tell me what kind of pickup would fit? And what kind of cap would work with my XS steering?

Zimm..This will work..Hardin Marine :wink:
http://www.hardin-marine.com/detail~ID~2005.aspx

Not sure... but I think it replaces the Hardin Marine I bought 3yrs ago:smash:

gcarter
05-31-2008, 09:14 PM
Guess there will be three of us standing there side by side. :bighug:
Doin' what......peeing on the drive???????

Mr X
05-31-2008, 09:49 PM
http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/cwm/piss2.gifGood idea George!http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/cwm/piss.gif

The Hedgehog
05-31-2008, 11:18 PM
You know, you don't have to take long and study it for a disertation, you just want to get an idea how much water it's producing and whether it's covering the top of the drive.
Shouldn't take more than 3-5 seconds.
I just had an idea.....since I'm running (future tense) a transom pickup, sea strainer, and pressure relief valve before the sea water pump, I can feed the pressure relief valve discharge to the drive throuh the transom......:smash::propeller:
The faster you go, the more water is being discharged through the relief valve and overboard to the shower.
That way there's no potential of robbing any cooling water to the engine.


I don't think that they hurt. I will probably continue to use them. The way you describe is probably good.

roadtrip se
06-01-2008, 12:26 PM
Guess there will be three of us standing there side by side. :bighug:

Actually four, Griz chimed in earlier.

Thanks guys.

yeller
06-01-2008, 01:44 PM
Well they did go to finned top caps, so there must be at least a bit of a known problem.

SO:... Are you talkin Alphas or Bravos? I have a brand new "Mercruiser" Alpha that has not been on any boat yet. I bought it last October. It ain't got no stinkin fins on it. It looks just like my '86 Alpha. ??? :hangum:
Only difference is: the '86 was 1:50. The new one is 1:47. :confused: :confused:I was talking Bravo. Mine's an 04 with no fins and Carl's is an 05 with fins as his pic shows.

justleft
06-01-2008, 02:41 PM
Back in the late 80's - early 90's we would dump the intercooler output water on the drives.
I burned my hand on a bravo top cap once !

But back then foutain put pickups in the trim tabs to fill the nose ballast tank.
Need more bow weight just lower your tabs !! Sounds scary to me !!

Anything you drag in the water will slow the boat.

yes, I do run a drive shower on the bravo. I don't know if it
gets hot but I don't care about a few mph and handling doesn't seem affected.

DonziJon
06-01-2008, 02:51 PM
I was talking Bravo. Mine's an 04 with no fins and Carl's is an 05 with fins as his pic shows.

Okey Dokey. I havn't seen fins on a Bravo yet. ..course that doesn't mean they don't exist. Is the finned cap now a "Stock" item on the Bravos? I wouldn't think that idea would be worth much from an AIR cooling perspective, but would really help when used with a shower.

I was just thinking today, why doesn't someone who is technically inclined, pick up a "Thermocouple" somewhere and stick it on the top of the drive and see what the typical running temps are? I think they ...(thermocouples) are pretty simple in operation...maybe even real cheap.

The electrical resistance....or is it voltage? (can't remember)..between two differnt poles..or whatever, on the end of a pigtail running in to the boat is measured with a multimeter and then you convert that reading to temperature. You just stick it on the drive with tape. Not sure how it would work being submerged initially though. Just wondering. :doh:

Ed Donnelly
06-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Doesn't Simrek or another drive shower Co. already sell a drive temp gauge??.Ed

gcarter
06-01-2008, 03:10 PM
Livorsi makes one...the gauge is the same price as nay other gauge, but the pickup is about $250.00. It screws into the upper side plug or maybe even the top.

blackhawk
06-01-2008, 03:11 PM
Doesn't Simrek or another drive shower Co. already sell a drive temp gauge??.Ed

Probably a few companies out there that do but I know Lavorsi does. Kinda pricey though.

gcarter
06-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Yep pricey...I was wrong....$349-$369.00!!!!!:eek!:

http://livorsi.com/catalog/bravo.htm

DonziJon
06-01-2008, 03:24 PM
I just Googled "Thermocouple". It "seems" to be Way too complicated. Too much book lernin required. Probably works better in a laboratory than in real life. It was a thought though. :bonk:

I just got another brainstorm. Go to Radio Shack and buy one of those "Wired" digital outdoor thermometers, ($15.) ....tape the probe to the top of the drive and run the display into the ****pit. :smash:

blackhawk
06-01-2008, 03:49 PM
Go to Radio Shack and buy one of those "Wired" digital outdoor thermometers, ($15.) ....tape the probe to the top of the drive and run the display into the ****pit. :smash:

Not a bad idea for a quick check. However, I'm betting the cool water spraying the drive would also quicly lower the temp of the probe giving innaccurate results. The drive temp gauges actually measures the temp of the drive oil. I thought about getting one just to see the difference with and without my shower(like Canada Jeff did) until I saw the price!

Last Real Texan
06-01-2008, 05:01 PM
I run a drive shower on my Imco Extreme SC but I really do not have a choice...It is plumbed into the water jacket on the drive, comes up the back and in to a Stainless top cap integrated with showering jets that spray down both sides of the drive...I will take a photo Monday and post it...It is my understanding that this way it does not rob any speed due to drag because feedes of the front intake in the bullet...does any of this make sense?
Tex
On edit found a photo pf the top of the Imco Cap that is stock on the SC extreme Drive I will take some of the routing of the pick up on monday

Carl C
06-01-2008, 06:11 PM
Here is a good discussion about drive temp guages and showers: http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51484 This was actually why I haven't installed a shower yet. Canada Jeff showed that there was no drop in oil temp with a shower so maybe the hot cap is just indicating the internal temp of the entire drive. The oil does circulate doesn't it? The cool temp of the cap with a shower may just provide a false sense of safety. There has to be a point at which the heat is enough to break down the oil or do other damage. It was also shown that a quick dunk coming off plane quickly cools the entire drive but the shower does not cool it while running. So maybe it only cools the cap. I would like to have a drive temp guage and oil temp guage. Good info, keep it coming.

DonziJon
06-01-2008, 06:17 PM
The temp probes for those cheap Radio Shack thermometers are really quite slim. I have a couple of them on the back of my computer to monitor exhaust temps for my CPU and PSU. The probe is tapered: Dimensions are about 7/8" long, .190d at the larger end and .158d at the smaller end which is the tip of the probe. I can see drilling a hole in the upper drive "Plug" and epoxying the probe into the plug.

What I havn't been able to envision yet, is what the "wrench" would look like to put the plug back in the drive. I know someone on this board will step up to the plate and DO THIS.

I would step up in a heartbeat..BUT..I don't know if my boat is coming out of the garage this year. John

DonziJon
06-01-2008, 06:31 PM
Here is a good discussion about drive temp guages and showers: http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51484 This was actually why I haven't installed a shower yet. Canada Jeff showed that there was no drop in oil temp with a shower so maybe the hot cap is just indicating the internal temp of the entire drive. The oil does circulate doesn't it? The cool temp of the cap with a shower may just provide a false sense of safety. There has to be a point at which the heat is enough to break down the oil or do other damage. It was also shown that a quick dunk coming off plane quickly cools the entire drive but the shower does not cool it while running. So maybe it only cools the cap. I would like to have a drive temp guage and oil temp guage. Good info, keep it coming.

Carl: Interesting link. I noted that the oil temp WITHOUT a shower didn't exceed 230F. That's NOTHIN. Not much above the temp of a HOT cup of coffee. (Mickey Ds) I would like to hear from "MinxGuy" on how hot gear lube oil can get in a gearbox, before it gets burned and becomes ineffective. John

blackhawk
06-01-2008, 06:34 PM
It was also shown that a quick dunk coming off plane quickly cools the entire drive but the shower does not cool it while running. So maybe it only cools the cap. I would like to have a drive temp guage and oil temp guage. Good info, keep it coming.

This is why I run one just to be on the safe side. I do long runs on plane where the upper part of the drive is high and dry. If you only did short 3-4 mile WFO runs then got off plane I see no need for one.

Here's an idea. I'll be the guinea pig and buy the gauge and post my results. If it does nothing for my drive oil temps then I will eat it. However, if it drops the temp of my drive oil then all the people that state they do no good chip in and buy the gauge.

Carl C
06-01-2008, 06:50 PM
This is why I run one just to be on the safe side. I do long runs on plane where the upper part of the drive is high and dry. If you only did short 3-4 mile WFO runs then got off plane I see no need for one.

Here's an idea. I'll be the guinea pig and buy the gauge and post my results. If it does nothing for my drive oil temps then I will eat it. However, if it drops the temp of my drive oil then all the people that state they do no good chip in and buy the gauge. I'll run 20 miles on plane at 65+ mph. I might install a gauge too if I can find a place to put it. I'd love to see you do that test and I might too. I don't know about paying for your gauge though because that will be good to have anyway. That link showed that a damaged drive leads to a higher oil temp before total breakage occurs. Anyway this would be cool to do the test here and see if showers really cool the internal operating temp.

blackhawk
06-01-2008, 06:58 PM
I'll run 20 miles on plane at 65+ mph. I might install a gauge too if I can find a place to put it. I'd love to see you do that test and I might too. I don't know about paying for your gauge though because that will be good to have anyway. That link showed that a damaged drive leads to a higher oil temp before total breakage occurs. Anyway this would be cool to do the test here and see if showers really cool the internal operating temp.

You don't fall into that category of saying they don't work.

I'm just calling out all the doubters on this thread that said they don't work to see if they'll put their money where their mouth is! :D

RedDog
06-01-2008, 07:05 PM
I've been wondering - does the upper housing of the drive stay dry while underway? Seems like there might be some splashing going on at the transom that wets down the drive about as much as a drive shower does? Uhhhh - just sayin'





http://www.donzi.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=63

CHACHI
06-01-2008, 07:07 PM
Carl: Interesting link. I noted that the oil temp WITHOUT a shower didn't exceed 230F. That's NOTHIN. Not much above the temp of a HOT cup of coffee. (Mickey Ds) I would like to hear from "MinxGuy" on how hot gear lube oil can get in a gearbox, before it gets burned and becomes ineffective. John

John, oil is tested for viscosity at 210 F. 230 F isn't going to stress a quality oil. When oil temps start to reach 300 F the life of the oil will start to deteriorate quicker, not quickly, just quicker. One of the many reasons why we change oil when it gets really, really hot. Synthetics can "live" at higher temps longer with less "damage". As far as the upper limit I can't answer that.
Ken

p729lws
06-01-2008, 07:11 PM
Here is a good discussion about drive temp guages and showers: http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51484 This was actually why I haven't installed a shower yet. Canada Jeff showed that there was no drop in oil temp with a shower so maybe the hot cap is just indicating the internal temp of the entire drive. The oil does circulate doesn't it? The cool temp of the cap with a shower may just provide a false sense of safety. There has to be a point at which the heat is enough to break down the oil or do other damage. It was also shown that a quick dunk coming off plane quickly cools the entire drive but the shower does not cool it while running. So maybe it only cools the cap. I would like to have a drive temp guage and oil temp guage. Good info, keep it coming.

I only skimed the thread but I didn't see where he confirmed that his cavitation plate mounted shower was flowing any water? It didn't sound like he had much time to test it or dial it in. The post did contain a couple links for remote drive oil coolers which looked pretty cool.

Dan

Carl C
06-01-2008, 07:40 PM
I've been wondering - does the upper housing of the drive stay dry while underway? Seems like there might be some splashing going on at the transom that wets down the drive about as much as a drive shower does? Uhhhh - just sayin'





http://www.donzi.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=63:fam::fam::fam:


I only skimed the thread but I didn't see where he confirmed that his cavitation plate mounted shower was flowing any water? It didn't sound like he had much time to test it or dial it in. The post did contain a couple links for remote drive oil coolers which looked pretty cool.

Dan You're right and that's why we need to do tests here.

gcarter
06-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Guys, a water mist ain't the same thing as a shower. It might help to put out a fire, but for heat transfer, you need some volume of water. Not vapor.
I'm not saying there's not heat transfer goin' on, it just ain't the same thing.
In the '30's Rolls Royce tried in vain to cool a Buzzard (a VERY large V-12 aircraft engine) with steam rather than water. It didn't work, just cooked the engine.

Trueser
06-01-2008, 09:01 PM
Ok that picture is copyrighted.
And that boat is running a REX Marine drive shower.
We were trying to figure if the shower added that much more water..

I have to pea..................

Cuda
06-01-2008, 09:57 PM
John, oil is tested for viscosity at 210 F. 230 F isn't going to stress a quality oil. When oil temps start to reach 300 F the life of the oil will start to deteriorate quicker, not quickly, just quicker. One of the many reasons why we change oil when it gets really, really hot. Synthetics can "live" at higher temps longer with less "damage". As far as the upper limit I can't answer that.
Ken
That's why I ran Mobile One synthetic in my Kaama drives. Never a problem with them.

Tony
06-01-2008, 10:28 PM
Just run a Volvo...they don't need no stinkin' drive showers!

:beer:

Trueser
06-01-2008, 10:55 PM
Just run a Volvo...they don't need no stinkin' drive showers!
:beer:


Nice,

Pismo
06-02-2008, 08:07 AM
You don't hear of a lot of Bravo failures regardless whether they are with or without drive showers unless it is a big hp or heavy boat. Bravos are pretty good if under 500ish hp. I have never found my drive to get that hot. I can always touch it, warm but less than 120 degrees probably which is not much relatively speaking. If I upgraded I would probably add a shower but in stock form, I don't seem to need one.

MOP
06-02-2008, 08:21 AM
Carl there is no circulation of oil in the Merc drives, the only drive with an oil circulation pump is Volvo. It is very easy to see the pump does wonders as the Volvo's life span is about 10 times that of a Merc. I like the idea of a shower but at the same token running syn oil is a plus, syn oils reduce temp and also will stand higher temperatures. I run Kenny's Spectro slick juice in my drive and still on the hose for any length of time the cap is very uncomfortable to the touch. I have -0- exhaust going through the drive so it is all friction heat. I do not run a shower but do drop off plane about every 20 minutes to dunk the drive for a few to cool it a bit, I feel under load the temps have to build higher.

Phil

Carl C
06-02-2008, 08:47 AM
Carl there is no circulation of oil in the Merc drives, the only drive with an oil circulation pump is Volvo. It is very easy to see the pump does wonders as the Volvo's life span is about 10 times that of a Merc. I like the idea of a shower but at the same token running syn oil is a plus, syn oils reduce temp and also will stand higher temperatures. I run Kenny's Spectro slick juice in my drive and still on the hose for any length of time the cap is very uncomfortable to the touch. I have -0- exhaust going through the drive so it is all friction heat. I do not run a shower but do drop off plane about every 20 minutes to dunk the drive for a few to cool it a bit, I feel under load the temps have to build higher.

Phil The Merc outboards used a spiral shaft to pull the oil up to the top. Wouldn't the Bravo need something similar to make sure oil gets to the top? I'm heading to Lake St. Clair today and will feel the cap after a hard run. I also ressurected the Speedwake thread to get more info from Canada Jeff. Happy boating today and then home to watch the Wings skate with the cup:propeller:.

MOP
06-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Not so in the I/O apps, look at item #12, how intelligent it would be to circulate the oil like Volvo. But then how do they sell drives and parts, part of the well planned and even getting better obsolescence program!!!

http://216.37.204.206/Shorts/mercruiser_oem/Mercruiser.asp?Type=13&SubType=113&A=43&B=5

VetteLT193
06-02-2008, 10:31 AM
Not so in the I/O apps, look at item #12, how intelligent it would be to circulate the oil like Volvo. But then how do they sell drives and parts, part of the well planned and even getting better obsolescence program!!!
http://216.37.204.206/Shorts/mercruiser_oem/Mercruiser.asp?Type=13&SubType=113&A=43&B=5

I think the oil level is higher than than the lower unit and the upper shaft is spiraled to pull the oil up.

It's not necessary to have a pump. Merc drives aren't bad drives. Most of the time problems come from how the boat is driven. My brother had over 1000 trouble free hours with a 454 / Alpha 1 in his 22. (no drive shower either) The drive outlasted the engine... he switched to Bravo 1 because he increased the HP.

MOP
06-02-2008, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=VetteLT193;452462]I think the oil level is higher than than the lower unit and the upper shaft is spiraled to pull the oil up.

The spiral on the upper shaft is for the shift cone to be able to be moved up or down for gear engagement, the spiral exerts extra force to engage the cone it does not pump oil. Merc would have been a lot smarter copying the whole Volvo setup rather then just taking the cone shift system, if they had incorporated the the pump and filter like Volvo then they would have a drive that would have very good longevity. Two of my best buddies are Merc dealers, every time I crab about the Merc short comings their pat answer is it is like owning a very good annuity, beats the heck out of the stock market!!! Many tout Merc but show me just one Merc drive that has lasted 20 years and I will show you several hundred Volvo's that have been around for 30 and better, now way can anyone argue that fact!

blackhawk
06-02-2008, 03:59 PM
MOP I completely agree! A Bravo drive has average dependability at best.

Last Real Texan
06-02-2008, 04:25 PM
Better pic of the drive shower Cap combo From IMCO

p729lws
06-02-2008, 06:16 PM
Better pic of the drive shower Cap combo From IMCO

Does water pressure from the drive pick-up feed the shower?

Dan

Last Real Texan
06-02-2008, 07:24 PM
Does water pressure from the drive pick-up feed the shower?
Dan
Yes...It uses the one large slot in the bullet , the same opening as for the water pump pick up. Imco lowers are notorious for have high water pressure and I would think this would help fight thatproblem,maybe...I am not sure. also What I am not sure of in respect to the shower design is the actual cooling route the water takes in the cap, Meaning I am not sure if it cools the cap as well as shoots a stream of water out of the jets on each side as well. I do know it shoots a shower of water out of jets angled to the drive sides that cools ( supposedly ) the side of the drive, Like I said It is an intergral part of the cap design as well as drive design so I have no other choice but to use it, does it help? I don't really know but hey it looks good:popcorn:
Tex

MOP
06-02-2008, 07:46 PM
Better pic of the drive shower Cap combo From IMCO

Very sweet looking setup and one heck of a bruiser of a drive.

Last Real Texan
06-02-2008, 10:40 PM
Very sweet looking setup and one heck of a bruiser of a drive.
Thanks......should hold up better than what was there with the upgrade over the winter....The stock B1 was on Borrowed time....

Tex

The Hedgehog
06-03-2008, 06:34 AM
A friend of mine has this cap on his Bravo and really likes it.
http://www.getrealperformance.com/ProductGroupDetails.aspx?ProductGroupID=24

I am going with a Billet Cap on my XR. I hear that they help and need to be installed correctly.

Carl C
06-03-2008, 09:06 AM
I am still following this and there have been several cool showers posted that don't require an additional water pick-up. I am leaning towards one of those. I will pass on the one that was offered for $50 since I don't want that type. The price is right and if anyone else wants it then go for it. Trueser, you don't know that the broken drive you pictured here would have been prevented by a shower. Perhaps a temp gauge would have indicated a problem before it grenaded? I ran my boat hard on Lake St. Clair yesterday. After an 8 mile WOT run I immediately felt the drive top (which was submerged now) and it did feel about like holding a hot coffee mug. Not hot enough to burn(like McD's coffee!). I still hope to install a temp gauge and shower tapped into the sea water pump but not sure yet.

Trueser
06-03-2008, 10:26 AM
I am still following this and there have been several cool showers posted that don't require an additional water pick-up. I am leaning towards one of those. I will pass on the one that was offered for $50 since I don't want that type. The price is right and if anyone else wants it then go for it. Trueser, you don't know that the broken drive you pictured here would have been prevented by a shower. Perhaps a temp gauge would have indicated a problem before it grenaded? I ran my boat hard on Lake St. Clair yesterday. After an 8 mile WOT run I immediately felt the drive top (which was submerged now) and it did feel about like holding a hot coffee mug. Not hot enough to burn(like McD's coffee!). I still hope to install a temp gauge and shower tapped into the sea water pump but not sure yet.

What picture are you talking about? I never said that drive was broke. Just Baked.....

You need to drink some of that coffee...

What is the water temp of St Clair. Also the sides of your drive may be hotter than your top. I'm sure those fins help keeping the top cap cool.

I agree with running off the the Pump.

I have to Pea again...

blackhawk
06-03-2008, 11:14 AM
I After an 8 mile WOT run I immediately felt the drive top (which was submerged now) and it did feel about like holding a hot coffee mug. Not hot enough to burn(like McD's coffee!).

And that's after it was submerged. Which brings up another point. I can't imagine it's good for the aluminum case to get hot while on plane and then quickly cooled when submerged over and over. There is some expanding and contracting happening there.

Carl C
06-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Carl,
something to look forward too:


What picture are you talking about? I never said that drive was broke. Just Baked.....

You need to drink some of that coffee...

What is the water temp of St Clair. Also the sides of your drive may be hotter than your top. I'm sure those fins help keeping the top cap cool.

I agree with running off the the Pump.

I have to Pea again... It's pee. Peas are what some people eat. My bad, I thought the pic showed a crack on the upper. BTW, the flash makes it look worse:wink:.

Blackhawk, I know the test I did doesn't mean anything because the drive was submerged. I wish there was a safe way to feel it underway. With all that water splashing around back there I wonder how dry it really stays anyway.

blackhawk
06-03-2008, 03:43 PM
If a Merc case cannot take a 180-220 degree running temperature than it is a bigger POS than I thought.

You guys are way overthinking this. It boils down to if you think a drive shower is a necessity, then install the one with the least amount of parasitic drag you can find, ie a drive cap. However, MILLIONS of drives out there not running showers would tend to make me believe the issue (especially on light boats such as Classics) is blown way out of proportion...

My point was the case heating up and then being QUICKLY cooled(and contracting) when you get off plane. I'm not a metal expert so maybe it's not a big deal.

But I agree if you want to run one do it. If you don't then don't. Boaters waste all kinds of money on meaningless stuff so $200 for a drive shower is a no brainer to me.

I would still be interested in seeing how much a good drive shower cools the oil. I guess the doubters don't want to take my bet? :D

Mr X
06-03-2008, 06:53 PM
My point was the case heating up and then being QUICKLY cooled(and contracting) when you get off plane. I'm not a metal expert so maybe it's not a big deal.
But I agree if you want to run one do it. If you don't then don't. Boaters waste all kinds of money on meaningless stuff so $200 for a drive shower is a no brainer to me.
I would still be interested in seeing how much a good drive shower cools the oil. I guess the doubters don't want to take my bet? :D

Personaly, I am scared to take that bet! http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/blackeye/kaching.gif

Maybe qualify your bet by how may degrees the shower would cool the oil temp.

Air 22
06-03-2008, 07:34 PM
My Mech just installed these on his 30ft Spectre...No Showers:smash: He'd blown Bravo after Bravo...these IMCO sure are beefy!:cool:

roadtrip se
06-03-2008, 10:26 PM
I had to stop to pee twice, just trying to catch up on all of this.

Shouldn't some folks be out on the water, instead of obsessing about drive showers? The SE will find water this weekend and I STILL will not be running a shower on it.

Trueser and I were talking about this tonight. We are going to mount one on the back of one of the Himlayain cats lurking around here. We think it should be good for four to five mile per hour, just based on the surprise factor. As for the cooling, I'm not sure either cat will allow to us test near the water without clawing us to death, so the results are anyone's guess.

Time to see a man about a long oar on a short pier....

osur866
06-03-2008, 11:51 PM
Well I ran a Simrek before I installed the Shorty and tested the shorty with no drive shower installed a livorsi single pick-up shower and retested with no speed loose none zippo, so I will contunie to run the shower for nothing else it does keep the upper drive clean which saves me time :wink: for how much cooler the drive really is never put a temp guage on but I'd think it would maybe 20 to 30 deg. cooler never did this test. But since I've verified no speed lose on my set-up I'll run one for nothing else to keep the drive looking clean. Steve

Air 22
06-04-2008, 07:06 AM
"..it is Spectre Dwight..."

:doh::nilly:....Thanks Evil Twin #1:smash:

Carl C
06-04-2008, 08:20 AM
We are going to mount one on the back of one of the Himlayain cats lurking around here.


"..it is Spectre Dwight..."

:doh::nilly:....Thanks Evil Twin #1:smash: Ahhhh, it is Himalayan Mr. 'Trip.:wink: I'll not run a shower yet and not to save $ either. I just blew my economic stimulus money on a chartplotter instead.:propeller:

The Hedgehog
10-13-2008, 10:01 PM
I went to a Billet Marine top cap with an internal cooling shower. I don't run a gauge but it is cool after a long run with my white buildup. I use a massive Rex Billet drive bottle and don' t see much heat expansion. I have checked it after about 10 - 80mph plus passes and it is still good.

roadtrip se
10-13-2008, 10:50 PM
and not stick something extra in the water. May have to take another look at
this over the winter while the motor is sitting on the ground.

BTW, my cats are still pissed off.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-13-2008, 11:42 PM
I went to a Billet Marine top cap with an internal cooling shower. I don't run a gauge but it is cool after a long run with my white buildup. I use a massive Rex Billet drive bottle and don' t see much heat expansion. I have checked it after about 10 - 80mph plus passes and it is still good.

Bill,
I just looked up that cap, and it sure looks like a "cool" idea. I had not seen one before. Does the water run down from the sides after going through the inside of the cap? I don't see how the 9 jets of water come out of it. Thanks, Bill

The Hedgehog
10-14-2008, 06:50 AM
Bill,
I just looked up that cap, and it sure looks like a "cool" idea. I had not seen one before. Does the water run down from the sides after going through the inside of the cap? I don't see how the 9 jets of water come out of it. Thanks, Bill

The jets are there. The sides of the cap are actually wider than the upper and they blast downward. The other benefit is that the cap provides less flex/more strength.

Carl C
10-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Since I installed the shorty there is gobs of water flying around back there. The transom stays much cleaner and the rear deck actually gets wet sometimes. I think the drive is getting plenty of cooling water without a shower.

Ghost
11-13-2008, 03:01 PM
The wife had me pull over for her to take a girl break and stood on top of the drive. She commented right away "this things kinda hot"...

TX, my hat's off to you on your restraint. My other half would have gotten yet another incredibly juvenile response from me. :)

Carl C
11-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Since I installed the shorty there is gobs of water flying around back there. The transom stays much cleaner and the rear deck actually gets wet sometimes. I think the drive is getting plenty of cooling water without a shower. Look at Trueser's new banner pics. Why would a shower be needed? Looks like plenty of water as is, especially with a shorty.:)

Trueser
11-30-2008, 01:36 PM
Carl,
Snap out of it... The red boat is running a shower.

I run showers on the Scorpion and didn’t see any MPH loss. On the other hand they stay clean and shine.

Come to AOTH and maybe get some shots of your boat. That’s if you can keep up.

Carl C
11-30-2008, 01:59 PM
Carl,
Snap out of it... The red boat is running a shower.

I run showers on the Scorpion and didn’t see any MPH loss. On the other hand they stay clean and shine.

Come to AOTH and maybe get some shots of your boat. That’s if you can keep up.I should at least be in the middle of the pack. No way I can keep up with all of you speed demons! Events are up in the air right now. I have the new tow truck, just need to see where the finances are after the holidays. Sales are definately down this year. Got to see if the new sweatheart is still around too!!

Carl C
04-24-2009, 11:28 AM
I probably should have put a time limit on this. With the new 525 EFI I will most likely install a shower. The holes are already there on the shorty cavitation plate too.:)

Jraysray
05-27-2009, 10:51 PM
Kill it dude!

Carl C
05-28-2009, 07:14 AM
I can't! You have to put a time limit on the polls and I didn't do that. Scott or Scot, feel free to delete or close this, it has served it's purpose.

Last Real Texan
05-28-2009, 07:21 AM
Carl,


Come to AOTH and maybe get some shots of your boat. That’s if you can keep up.
Smack....did you feel this Carl?

Carl C
05-28-2009, 07:34 AM
Smack....did you feel this Carl?

I don't think keeping up would be a problem. If I get this damn Donzi running I can still make the Spring Dust-Off but the 2 day exhaust job has turned into 3 weeks and I will need some testing time (not Brian's fault $hit happens) :(.

Carl C
05-28-2009, 02:44 PM
Kill it dude!

It's like the song chain......:nilly:

ZekesterbluH3
06-02-2009, 03:28 AM
Internal meaning runs of a water pump. Since I have a TRS i don't have to have one.

Can you please elaborate? I assume you are referring to the fact that with the TRS you have an external pickup for seawater, and tap off that for your shower?

I am running a stock merc 330 with a recently rebuilt TRS in a Hornet 3, I do run at 30 minutes plus at 50 mph plus, and I have noticed the case being warm...and would like to install a shower...I thought of tapping off the raw water pick-up, and installing a valve to regulate the flow, my thoughts being with the shower being a "total loss" system, I may lose a large amount of cooling water that I'd rather have going to the engine...and with the high flow going out the shower, the heat sink would be minimal, I could afford to slow the flow down, and still get good heat transfer.

What type of shower would you guys, or Griz if you run one on your TRS, recommend? Again, I'm just stock, and looking for cheap insurance...

Trueser
06-02-2009, 07:04 AM
I like the REX marine low water pick up style.

You may be able to make it work on a TRS. I'm not sure a TRS needs one.

Carl C
06-02-2009, 07:11 AM
I believe the TRS uses a transmission and built in oil cooler (doesn't the T stand for transmission?). It may also have better oil circulation.

Since this thread will not die, it is interesting that not one voter has a drive oil temperature gauge. That's a lot of "blind faith".

ZekesterbluH3
06-02-2009, 07:24 AM
that's the first thing I noticed about the poll....

Trueser
06-02-2009, 09:29 AM
I believe the TRS uses a transmission and built in oil cooler (doesn't the T stand for transmission?). It may also have better oil circulation.

Since this thread will not die, it is interesting that not one voter has a drive oil temperature gauge. That's a lot of "blind faith".

The transmission is separate from the drive. Does not cool the drive oil.

Go ahead and kill the thread.

As far as temp guage I dont see a reason to have one on my boat. My showers have worked just fine.

The Hedgehog
06-25-2009, 07:36 PM
I just thought I would drag this thread back up.

Here is my billet shower with the special oil passage to the transom (compliments of Tex engineering). I could see using a gauge. It would be useful for pushing some power through an XR. Or better yet, a gauge that tells me my blower is going to grenade!

And the two holes peaking down. You just never know.:pimp:

MOP
09-28-2009, 07:11 PM
Bill what are you using to pump the oil through the drive, I have thought about something similar. My thinking was a 12 inch cooler I have and a pump, I got off track when it came to regulation and a pump. My thinking is with cooler in the sea water line there would be no need for a shower.

Phil

Dr. David Fleming
09-29-2009, 02:44 PM
After reading this thread I can't believe someone with a shower didn't try a speed test with it hooked up and then disconnect it to see it it made any difference in the mph. This is basic science, its called and an "experiment!"

Dr. d

The Hedgehog
09-29-2009, 08:37 PM
Bill what are you using to pump the oil through the drive, I have thought about something similar. My thinking was a 12 inch cooler I have and a pump, I got off track when it came to regulation and a pump. My thinking is with cooler in the sea water line there would be no need for a shower.

Phil

Your idea is a good one and has been done by Drew Marine. It works and there are a number of ways you can do it one your own.

The Hedgehog
09-29-2009, 08:39 PM
After reading this thread I can't believe someone with a shower didn't try a speed test with it hooked up and then disconnect it to see it it made any difference in the mph. This is basic science, its called and an "experiment!"

Dr. d

It has been done quite a few times. Results vary depending on size of the boat, x dim and hp. What tests usually show is that lighter boats that are more easily influenced by parasitic drag are more prone to lose speed. There have also been a few tests on drive oil temp.

BigGrizzly
09-30-2009, 04:17 PM
It has been done with up to 4mph loss

Carl C
09-30-2009, 04:54 PM
I'm going to try a before and after with my speedo pitot. Still no shower here...:nilly:.

Trueser
09-30-2009, 05:41 PM
It has been done with up to 4mph loss

So if that’s the case I should be 4-8 mph greater if I pull mine?

I can't see it myself. Were they using mechanical or standard drive indicators. What was the mfr of the ones being used on the test? The best thing would be to test the drive oil temp. I'm more concerned with the weight of the boat and how cool the drives run. Ever since I installed mine I have no discoloration on my drives.

I use rex marine on my Scorpion!

I would be willing to test. Next year....

The Hedgehog
09-30-2009, 06:13 PM
So if that’s the case I should be 4-8 mph greater if I pull mine?

I can't see it myself. Were they using mechanical or standard drive indicators. What was the mfr of the ones being used on the test? The best thing would be to test the drive oil temp. I'm more concerned with the weight of the boat and how cool the drives run. Ever since I installed mine I have no discoloration on my drives.

I use rex marine on my Scorpion!

I would be willing to test. Next year....




So your drives have "been modified for extra cooling"

Probably no speed difference on your heavy ZX. Probably not on mine either.

For the drive oil temp you will need to install a gauge. I am with you on the running cooler thing.

I did pick up some slip in the 27ZX when I installed a shower. I cut down the pickup and gained it back. The prop was sucking in air.

Dr. David Fleming
09-30-2009, 11:47 PM
Was out on Lake St. Clair today - little cool to test the 30p Bravo I on my 22ZX here is my test results - have to get it back to B-Blades by Friday.

These tests were over the summer with one run on the open lake both ways into the wind and with it. The one run up the St. Clair River and one run down the river - all speeds are GPS.

26p lab finished - upriver 72.5, down river 78.9
- open lake upwind 74.5 and against 74.2

28p stock (new) - upriver 75.1, down river 76.2
- open lake upwind 75.8 and against ___

30p stock (used) - upriver 75.0, down river 78.2
- open lake upwind 77.0 and against 76.2

Engine rpm 26p was 5,400
28p was 5,000
30p was 4,600

Boat handling with the 26p was "great acceleration" no chine walk or bounding - the 28p was hard to handle with dangerous chine walk and bounding unless the drive was trimed down out of max speed. The 30p was a dream to handle rock solid at max speed and wanted more trim out than the others - go figure!

Bret at B-Blades says the lab finish on the 28p or 30p should give me 2 to 6 more mph? I wonder a 80 mph GPS on a 22ZX? Must leave somethings for next summer.

Engine is 502 MAG MPI with the racing cylinder heads off of "Crazy Chicken." Crane rockers, stock cam, and the CMI e-top headers off of the racing boat "Thunder Struck." K&N filter in Vortex frame - Tyler Crockett re-programed the fuel map as it need more gasoline in all settings. Stock Bravo I drive - K Planes, and Latham external steering.

Guess I will have to unhook my Latham drive shower next summer to get another 4mph GPS. Who cares if the drive runs hot!

Dr. d

Carl C
02-13-2011, 09:05 PM
Wow, who dug this up! Ran the XR with no problems for two seasons now without a shower! This could be another use for the new infrared heat gun though:kaioken:.

Carl C
02-14-2011, 08:05 PM
STOP VOTING! This thread is ancient! Just kidding...

Fishermanjm
02-15-2011, 07:22 AM
mine had one on it when i bought it, i have to be honest here,,, i had no idea what it was at first, the previous owner explained it ,also my surveyor explained it to me also,,, so now i know,,, its made by stainless marine, i would like to be able to see it working when underway

Fishermanjm
02-15-2011, 07:26 AM
i did'nt notice the date on the origional post,,, u are right carl it is an old one

Carl C
02-15-2011, 07:28 AM
i did'nt notice the date on the origional post,,, u are right carl it is an old one

No problem. It's an interesting topic and one with many opinions! I'll leave it at that because there is no need to rehash everything....:nilly:

gcarter
02-15-2011, 07:31 AM
mine had one on it when i bought it, i have to be honest here,,, i had no idea what it was at first, the previous owner explained it ,also my surveyor explained it to me also,,, so now i know,,, its made by stainless marine, i would like to be able to see it working when underway

There're some pictures on the site of them operating.
You can get a friend to drive while you hang out over the transom.
It's really kind of boring watching water splash on top of the drive.
They DO work.
Think about this, VEE drives are water cooled, they have a water jacket in the case to cool the oil. In industrial applications where you have a lot of power running through a right angle drive, there will be an external oil cooler which will be water or air cooled.
Your outdrive upper needs one too.

Fishermanjm
02-15-2011, 07:46 AM
George thats funny hanging off the transom at 45mph im still laughing thanks,,,

Carl C
02-15-2011, 09:25 AM
George thats funny hanging off the transom at 45mph im still laughing thanks,,,

Just make sure someone's hanging on to your feet!

The Hedgehog
02-16-2011, 05:11 PM
George thats funny hanging off the transom at 45mph im still laughing thanks,,,

He would not be the first to do it. It is kind of creepy. It is very loud hanging off the back of my ZX:shocking: Yes, they work

450rrrr
02-17-2011, 04:22 PM
http://cnj.craigslist.org/boa/2170390492.html
found this listing for anybody who maybe looking for a drive shower..there new and very cheap..

bigdawgchallenger
02-21-2011, 09:56 PM
This guy boats in Cleveland with me, Jeff of wags engineering. He makes Water Cooled Billet Aluminum Top Caps. Much stronger for performance engines. Overkill for me, but they look cool.

He is also making spacers for the exhaust manifold to riser that allows for a O2 sensor.


http://wagsengineering.com/