Blackhawk question.....

[JustMercMe]

Been looking hard at 22 Classics w/ Big Block/Bravo combos and I've run across a couple of Blackhawks for sale. Just wondering how much of a difference there is in these (driving wise) compared to a Shelby or Aronow edition w/ the raised "X" dimension. Driven a Shelby type quite a bit and wondering if theres a big difference. Also is the Blackhawk mainly a go fast all the time ride or is it a boat one could cruise every once and a while on?

Thanks fellas.

[Pismo]

You can always easily swap off the Blackhawk for a Bravo I/shorty later if you find you don't like it. The rocker hull would be nice to have. Maybe an Arneson.. Check carefully for rot.

[glashole]

leave the blackhawk on a blackhawk boat

the blackhawks are very much like a regular 22 classic and handle very similarily in most conditions up to probably 60 mph.
the only differences is that you use alot of tabs to control the boat (do a search)_

I can drive mine down to cruise at 20mph and it works great
and it will cruise at 50-60 mph all day at 3000 rpms :)

the differences come out when you really want them to fly and you lift the tabs and the boat hops up on top of the water and runs real nose high and shoots a rooster tail behind you like 100 ft (for comparison purposes it would be approx. double the roostertail of say someone with an IMCO shorty)

they are alot like a race horse- they will trot but they love to run

but when you are airing it out you have to be very cautious and have alot of seat time to make them work right or you will get frustrated with it as they can be tempermental in sloppy conditions

the most accurate description that I can give would be a regular 22 classic would be like Richie Cunningham - good well mannered individual with a little wild side when pushed :angel:

the blackhawk would be like Fonzy:doh:

HEEEEYYYYY!!!

watch for rotten boats

Shea

[roadtrip se]

Driven both a bunch. And with all respect to Shea, the boats are night and day in what it takes to drive them properly.

Anybody who says this hull will respond equally well to a bravo or an imco drive is probably trying to sell you a boat, not what works well with the hull design. The BH hull requires a BH drive. I've driven a conversion and it was awful.

The BH is not going to be popular with a passenger that isn't a seasoned performance boater. The inputs that work on a normal boat are exactly opposite on the BH. The boat can do spooky things to the uninitiated and can be down right dangerous in the wrong hands.

Best thing to do is go ride and drive one with somebody. I wouldn't recomend it to anyone as a first Donzi.

[glashole]

I do agree with Todd

definitely not a good first boat at all

you really have to want one

I understood the question to be can it be driven slowly

and you can (if you are into that sort of thing)

[JustMercMe]

Thats the info I was looking for. I like a boat that you have to learn to drive.....Keeps it interesting!

Been into outboard drag boats for a while and looking to get bigger and take it easy when I'm not doing 1/4 mile.

Thanks again!

Jonathan

[BigGrizzly]

Driving a BH is work and not for the timid or untrained. I too have driven a conversion and it was not good. I don't own one, yet I think they look great.

[blackhawk]

I owned a BH for 5 years(maybe 6) and yes you can cruise in it. It was my first performance boat and IMO that helped me. The main difference between the BH and a Bravo boat is how you control the attitude of the boat.

With the BH there is very little drive in the water so trimming the drive provides much less leverage to control the bow. Which is why there is rocker in the hull so the bow will carry. So, you have to use the tabs to control the bow. Once you get the hang of using the tabs it's not that bad. I actually mounted small radio witches in my throttle handle for my tabs so I could control the tabs while throttling.

At WFO the BH is loose and fast. Definitely a blast to drive!!!

My only complaint was in "sloppy" water it was tough to find a sweet spot.

[JustMercMe]

Once you get the hang of using the tabs it's not that bad. I actually mounted small radio witches in my throttle handle for my tabs so I could control the tabs while throttling.

At WFO the BH is loose and fast. Definitely a blast to drive!!!

My only complaint was in "sloppy" water it was tough to find a sweet spot.

Always wondered if there was a way to do that! Running these lil boats with trim on the wheel and foot throttle it's a change going to a regular throttle. Kinda like the idea of having everything in your hand!

Most of the running I'd be doing would be on a river so rough water would'nt be a concern. Bout the only rough water the boat would see would be at Destin every once and a while and at Eufaula a couple of times a year. Thanks for the help guys.....

Big Grizz, Looking forward to seeing you guys at Eufaula X this year.

[BigGrizzly]

We will be there!! My only problem is that Eufaula means brining summer to a close.

[blackhawk]

Always wondered if there was a way to do that! Running these lil boats with trim on the wheel and foot throttle it's a change going to a regular throttle. Kinda like the idea of having everything in your hand!

Most of the running I'd be doing would be on a river so rough water would'nt be a concern. Bout the only rough water the boat would see would be at Destin every once and a while and at Eufaula a couple of times a year. Thanks for the help guys.....

Big Grizz, Looking forward to seeing you guys at Eufaula X this year.

The two best things I did to my boat was replace the 150 tabs with longer 280s and install the radio switches. This allowed me to run less tab to stabalize the boat and quickly adjust them without taking my hand off the throttle. After that I could run the boat much harder.

Be careful running in rivers too. If you're running WFO and come into other boat wakes that boat can launch if the tabs are high and dry.

[glashole]

[Be careful running in rivers too. If you're running WFO and come into other boat wakes that boat can launch if the tabs are high and dry.[/quote]


and how :eek:

the switches do make the boat alot more driveable and userfriendly- if that is possble :bonk:

[Greg Maier]

I have over 100 hours behind the wheel of a Blackhawk, and every comment made so far has been correct. Take the comment about rot seriously. I have heard of several Blackhawks (mine included) with major stringer/transom rot problems. Make sure you have a certified marine surveyor look at the boat and make sure they use a moisture meter to check for rot. Also take a good look at the props for cracks. Surfacing props undergo tremendous stress and can crack. Blackhawk props are hard to find, but can be custom made for $$$$.

[surewin]

You guys are scaring me, I have my eyes on a Blackhawk as I want a faster bigger boat and ran across a Blackhawk for sale.. Never driven one but have alot of hours in a 208 hp 1990 sweet 16 that turns the speedo around to 15 MPH at WFO no tabs. The 16 is glued to the water in most of anything that Lake Champlain has except the 4 footer northwinds. Is the Blackhawk not a stable Donzi? Will the wife and daughter not feel safe at high speed, what happens in the 4-5 footers at high speeds, cavitation or worse? Can the naked eye depict rot, what are the indications, where do you look? I like the raw speed but need to be able to keep the family abord. Looking at a 1995 415 HP.

[BigGrizzly]

The black hawk is not for you. If your wife drives it she WILL divorce you. My wife drives my 690+ Hp Criterion but doesn't want to ride in a black hawk again. I have ridden with Gero, who is an excellent driver of the Hawk and he works his but off but he has gotten it gown to an art.

[RedDog]

... what happens in the 4-5 footers at high speeds...

well, with true 4 to 5 footers you leave your Classic on the trailer

[blackhawk]

You guys are scaring me, I have my eyes on a Blackhawk as I want a faster bigger boat and ran across a Blackhawk for sale.. Never driven one but have alot of hours in a 208 hp 1990 sweet 16 that turns the speedo around to 15 MPH at WFO no tabs. The 16 is glued to the water in most of anything that Lake Champlain has except the 4 footer northwinds. Is the Blackhawk not a stable Donzi? Will the wife and daughter not feel safe at high speed, what happens in the 4-5 footers at high speeds, cavitation or worse? Can the naked eye depict rot, what are the indications, where do you look? I like the raw speed but need to be able to keep the family abord. Looking at a 1995 415 HP.

The Blackhawk does have some handling characteristics you need to get used to. Mainly flying the bow off side waves/boat wakes. Once you get used to it and learn how to drive the boat with the tabs it's not a big deal.

I had my Blackhawk in TRUE 3 footers a couple times but it was consistant wind waves and I was running into/with them. The Blackhawk ate it up.

But at WFO the Blackhawk is very loose. If you're not trying to trim the boat out for every last mph you can still drive it fast and your passengers will feel safe. It's when you really loosen it up for that last mph or two that it can get scary for people that aren't used to that loose feeling. I loved that feeling and the handful of girlfriends I had in that time frame loved it too! :D However I had a buddy that didn't like the loose feeling.

[Greg Maier]

You really can't see rot unless you know exactly what you are looking for. The rotten wood is hidden underneath fiberglass. A marine surveyer will usually have a special hammer and a moisturemeter that he will use to test for rot.
Got to this link to read up on rot
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/preventing_rot_in_encapsulated_wood.htm

[roadtrip se]

A Bravo boat is going to be a MUCH better rough (3+'s) water boat.

Can the BH boats run in the big stuff? ABSOLUTELY!

Are you going to want to do it? NO, not very often!

Are your passengers and crew going to want to do it? Have you ever heard of Captain Bligh?

Best thing to do is go ride and drive one in conditions as close as you can to the way you intend to use the boat. If you are a little off, as I am and many others are here, you just might buy the thing. But go in knowing what you are getting into or visualize yourself selling your new boat in short order.


Whatever you do, make sure you bring an oar and look into installing a drive shower post-haste, and maybe even a a drive temp sensor, or risk the wrath of all who post here on this site. Disclaimer... the previous sentence is all BS and intended to rile the troops over a topic that just won't die and most won't let it (including myself because it is so much fun) because it illustrates the dysfunctional nature of this family to the extreme, so if you are easily offended, ignorant, lack a sense of humor, or prone to speaking out on topics on which you have little experience or knowledge, please get worked up, hammer somebody's rep points (darn, we can't do that anymore) accuse everyone with a different opinion than yours of being pompous and arrogant, and take this thread completely off topic and into derailed, chaotic, oblivion....


Man that felt good, now back to your regualrily scheduled programming...

Good luck on your BH search, but be wary and be wise...

[surewin]

Thanks for the many answers but they bring up more questions. Are the Blackhawk hulls identical to a 22' classic and do all Blackhawks have surface piercing drives from the factory. Do they still make them or what years were they made?

[Greg Maier]

Blackhawks hulls are different from standard 22 Classic hulls. They have a rocker bottom that allows them to use a surface drive. No, they do not make them anymore, they were made for 2 or 3 years around the 1995 timeframe. I have heard of some Blackhawk hulls having Bravo drives, but not sure if they came from the factory like that.

I am currently in the middle of a Blackhawk to Arneson conversion. I have no idea if it will work or not, but I am keeping my fingers crossed.

[VetteLT193]

and the easiest way to tell the difference between a BH hull and a non BH hull is the exhaust tips. Look at the stern picture in this thread: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52928

notice the tops of the exhaust tip rings are cut off... the added rocker means the back of the boat, if measured from the bottom of the V to the rub rail, is shorter.

[surewin]

Greg,
Why the conversion?

[Greg Maier]

There are many reasons (Arneson is a superior surface drive, etc) but the overarching reason is that I am addicted to tinkering with my boat / car / truck / motorcycle / bicycle / plane (if I had one), etc. And it is a really cool project.

[MOP]

Greg I keep waiting for yours to come together, I think the BH hull is a great candidate for the Adrive. Plus you will play hell breaking anything!!!!

[blackhawk]

Greg I keep waiting for yours to come together, I think the BH hull is a great candidate for the Adrive. Plus you will play hell breaking anything!!!!

I agree, that is a sounds like a great project!

[blackhawk]

Thanks for the many answers but they bring up more questions. Are the Blackhawk hulls identical to a 22' classic and do all Blackhawks have surface piercing drives from the factory. Do they still make them or what years were they made?

As Greg stated I believe they were made in 1995-1996 but I am not 100% sure. The short drive/higher X doesn't have enough leverage to suck the stern down and carry the bow. So, they added rocker to the hull for natural bow lift. This means there isn't much of the hull in the water at WFO which makes it very loose. And also very fast in the right conditions.

However, as others have said a Bravo boat will handle the rough waters with much less driver input. My Blackhawk would eat anything up(to a certain extent obviously) as long as there was consistancy and I ran with it or into it. In the washing machine slop you had to drive the hell out of it.

Honestly, if you boat where it is constant washing machine slop a Bravo boat will be easier to drive

[CHACHI]

and the easiest way to tell the difference between a BH hull and a non BH hull is the exhaust tips. Look at the stern picture in this thread: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52928

notice the tops of the exhaust tip rings are cut off... the added rocker means the back of the boat, if measured from the bottom of the V to the rub rail, is shorter.
What the deal with 8 engine vents? Is this normal on this year blackhawk?

Ken

[blackhawk]

What the deal with 8 engine vents? Is this normal on this year blackhawk?

Ken

I think it's because it's an anniversary edition???

Damn nice looking boat! Anyone know how many of those were made? I'm guessing just a handful.

[Greg Maier]

8 engine vents looks like a little customizing to me...


MOP: To bring you up to speed here is where I am with all the parts of the Blackhawk/Arneson Project

Engine: Currently being built in my garage by me with guidance from a local performance machine shop

Dart Big M Iron Block
4.5 inch bore X 4 inch stroke : 509 cid
Howards forged crank and rods
SRP flat top forged 9:1 compression pistons
Dart Pro-1 as-cast aluminum heads
Intake - to be determined
Carb - to be determined

Transmission: 72C Velvet Drive, currently being rebuilt by local marine transmission shop. They are upgrading by installing 10 carbon fiber clutches, should easily be able to handle my engine

Arneson Drive: Used Borg Warner 1721. Was chain drive, plan to install heavy duty 1.32:1 gears from Arneson Industries but have not acquired them yet. Have not acquired the Arneson setback box yet. Thrust tube and drop-box are being sandblasted, primed and painted. Thrust tube is having drive guard fitted and installed. Thrust tube currently has a broken upper fin that will be cut off.

Blackhawk Hull: Currently stripped down so that all is left are 1 inch tall fiberglass stringers. All wood has been chissled out and removed. All wood is being replaced with COOSA Bluewater 26 board.
Here are some pictures of the work in progress:

[VetteLT193]

I think it's because it's an anniversary edition???
Damn nice looking boat! Anyone know how many of those were made? I'm guessing just a handful.


I'm taking a speculation guess that it is 1 of 1.

In my opinion it is one of the coolest 22's ever built... blackhawk plus a really sweet red anniversary scheme that has white stripes and interior. It is so hot I want to hug it. :wink: I REALLY would like to see more pics of it.

They should have thrown a stripe on the Testa's, and white interior too.

[VetteLT193]

AFAIK, that is a one of one. I've got the build sheet around here somewhere. Originally a Fl boat, I looked into buying it a few years back.. So did Phil Reed, but instead he stole a 22 classic from one of my neighbors :eek: :eek:
The guy who owned it here added the extra vents, should also have one of those Livorsi pods for the shifter..

The added vents remind me of the 20' cigarette. seems like many of the older ones have 4 per side. The 20' cig to me is the "Easy Rider" of boats. Harley makes the wide glide as a late model edition of the Easy rider bike(s). I think Donzi makes the classics as the boat version....

any way you slice it, there are only a handful of boats that make my heart pump...

[blackhawk]

8 engine vents looks like a little customizing to me...
MOP: To bring you up to speed here is where I am with all the parts of the Blackhawk/Arneson Project
Engine: Currently being built in my garage by me with guidance from a local performance machine shop
Dart Big M Iron Block
4.5 inch bore X 4 inch stroke : 509 cid
Howards forged crank and rods
SRP flat top forged 9:1 compression pistons
Dart Pro-1 as-cast aluminum heads
Intake - to be determined
Carb - to be determined
Transmission: 72C Velvet Drive, currently being rebuilt by local marine transmission shop. They are upgrading by installing 10 carbon fiber clutches, should easily be able to handle my engine
Arneson Drive: Used Borg Warner 1721. Was chain drive, plan to install heavy duty 1.32:1 gears from Arneson Industries but have not acquired them yet. Have not acquired the Arneson setback box yet. Thrust tube and drop-box are being sandblasted, primed and painted. Thrust tube is having drive guard fitted and installed. Thrust tube currently has a broken upper fin that will be cut off.
Blackhawk Hull: Currently stripped down so that all is left are 1 inch tall fiberglass stringers. All wood has been chissled out and removed. All wood is being replaced with COOSA Bluewater 26 board.
Here are some pictures of the work in progress:

WOW! Great project. Keep us posted. I think you will have a great performing boat when finished!

[BigGrizzly]

Just to remind everyone, There were only 40 Blackhawk limited editions made 49 with 502 / 415 HP and 0ne with a 454(long story). However there were several black hawk style hulls with Blackhawk drives made (virtually the same minus the graphics and gold plated hardware). I too have4 been waiting For Greg to finish his project, for two reasons 1) I know he will do it right or won't do it, 2) I am dam curious how it will work. Any way Greg get you but in gear, I am not getting any younger. MOP and I are old farts and we want to see it before we get much older.