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gcarter
05-22-2008, 05:50 PM
I haven't posted about the Testa Rossa lately because I'm having problems spraying and finishing Donzi Red gelcoat.
I have previously sprayed white gel, and even blueprinted, removed hooks, and completely refinished the Minx's bottom while fully assembled and sitting upright on dollies.
However, the red Minicraft Pihrana gel and I aren't getting along.:( I'm experiencing awful problems w/pinholes and what would pass for fisheyes in paint. So far, I'm still working on the ****pit and some of the surfaces....the top of the dash, the stbd side, and the floor aft of the seat pedestals, I have done over five times! That's a lot of sanding. I've gone back to Minicraft so many times, they know me by name (fortunately, they're only ten miles from me). I have paid particular attention to temperatures...even bought a IR temp gauge so I could average the temps. I've learned to measure liquids in a cup to less than an ounce, use a syringe w/ the dexterity of a nurse, and count drops w/amazing accuracy.
I have reduced the pinholing significantly, but will still have 20-30 in a six square foot area. I have resorted to cutting out the hole from the inside w/ a small, sharp carbide cutter in a Dremel and filling w/patch paste. I know I'm missing something here.........
Any suggestions????? :confused:

BigGrizzly
05-22-2008, 06:46 PM
I was told to epoxi paint mine before I gelled or painted but I am a novice.

onesubdrvr
05-22-2008, 07:42 PM
George,

I am far from having any significant knowledge with spraying / mixing gel coat, but over the past couple of years, I have spent a pretty significant amount of time painting fiberglass stuff. That being said, I've found that the biggest problem I have with pinholes are from crappy epoxy / resin work on the original item. Originally the products I was painting were gel coated, but I found (as I was trying to sand most of the gel off before I painted) that it was too much work, and caused too many problems- primarily with pinholes because of MY sanding too deep. Then, I experimented with some works that were just epoxy laid fiberglass canopies, no gel coat, and those were far worse. Very close inspection revealed that the problem was where the epoxy hadn't properly soaked the cloth. Finally, I got someone to custom make my helicopter canopies, and haven't had a problem since.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the glass work underneath has spots that weren't properly soaked, you may run into problems. I've got a number for you if no one else can help for a guy that may be able to help you out, he's sprayed lots of clear (as well as colored) gel coats, and says that even he only has about 1 in 3 (of the clear) that turns out without any pin holes, the rest he has to go back and fix.

Hope to see you soon!
Wayne

Trueser
05-22-2008, 08:57 PM
George,
Call this guy and tell him where you are and problem you're having.

Tom Nabbers
1-815-941-1546

Make sure you tell him I suggested that you call him. And what boat you are working on.

Catch him in the Morning around 9:00 Central..

Good Luck


What about the tempature of the product? This may be something to look into.

BlownCrewCab
05-22-2008, 09:09 PM
If you have to thin the gel to spray it, Thin it then let it sit a little while (at least 10 minutes) Before adding the MEK.. with every chemical added theres a reaction, by letting it sit and react some before spraying you'll lessen your chance for porosity. sometimes it's contamination on the surface to be painted. I find it best to wipe down with what ever you'll be thinning with, that lessens the chance of getting fish eyes or patterns of problems where you wiped. also since you'll be sanding and buffing everything anyway just go back and spray fill the holes as you see them, while the same material is in the gun.

gcarter
05-22-2008, 09:10 PM
What about the tempature of the product? This may be something to look into.
Yeah, Paul @ Minicraft told me how important temp is. He gave me a dosing chart that covers about every 8*. He told me to average the ambient air, surface and gel temps and pick the proper amount of catalyst.
Thanks for the phone #.

gcarter
05-22-2008, 09:27 PM
If you have to thin the gel to spray it, Thin it then let it sit a little while (at least 10 minutes) Before adding the MEK.. with every chemical added theres a reaction, by letting it sit and react some before spraying you'll lessen your chance for porosity. sometimes it's contamination on the surface to be painted. I find it best to wipe down with what ever you'll be thinning with, that lessens the chance of getting fish eyes or patterns of problems where you wiped. also since you'll be sanding and buffing everything anyway just go back and spray fill the holes as you see them, while the same material is in the gun.
I've learned a lot in this project. Minicraft sells a reducer (thinner) that matches the chemical composition of their gel. I started off using about 25% and had horrible results. After another consulting session at Minicraft, they suggested no more than 5% reducer w/dark colors because there's no white titanium powder in it like in a white based gel that really needs thinning. Now I'm not using any of the reducer. I found I really don't need it and the results are better w/o it.
I've been wiping the surface down several times w/acetone. It takes that to really get it clean.
I'm thinking Wayne is on to something about the original gel and substrate quality (or lack thereof) may be at least part of the problem.
I'm pretty frustrated, but equally determined to do this thing right.
I'll definately try the "settling" idea on the next spraying session.
In fact, Minicraft suggested mixing up several batches (pints) of gel w/o catalyzing to save time. That automatically gives some time to the process.
I have decided it's more important to do whatever it takes to do a perfect job including having to buy more of the $100+/gal gel if that's what it takes.

mrfixxall
05-22-2008, 11:43 PM
what are the shop conditions? If anybody has ever sprayed armorall in the shop your gelling in then their may be a problem with the quality of the air/ mixed with armorall..sometimes it could take several years and its still floating around. what grit sand paper are you using, too smooth and the gel will pinhole.. i usually spray over 180 or 220 grit.. are you mixing wax in the gel? too much wax will make it pin hole also if your not using wax and using pva over the gel that will make it oinhole if your not waiting long enough for the gel to semi cure..try using some fish eye remover,it will work also have you tryed dusting on the first 2 coats, try it and wait for it to tack up then lay it on..

gcarter
05-23-2008, 06:24 AM
what are the shop conditions? If anybody has ever sprayed armorall in the shop your gelling in then their may be a problem with the quality of the air/ mixed with armorall..sometimes it could take several years and its still floating around. what grit sand paper are you using, too smooth and the gel will pinhole.. i usually spray over 180 or 220 grit.. are you mixing wax in the gel? too much wax will make it pin hole also if your not using wax and using pva over the gel that will make it oinhole if your not waiting long enough for the gel to semi cure..try using some fish eye remover,it will work also have you tryed dusting on the first 2 coats, try it and wait for it to tack up then lay it on..
The shop is a new building (less than three years old) and has never been used for any other than boat work...at least the part I'm working in. The rest of the shop is my water treatment company. Conditions are whatever the ambient weather is....88-90* and humidity ranging from 50% to 90%. I have been sanding to 220 or coarser. Also I was warned by Minicraft not to use PVA as their opinion is it's only good for molds. And the wax I'm adding @ 1 OZ/pint....precisely!

joseph m. hahnl
05-23-2008, 07:31 AM
George: Maybe your getting water.Check the air dryer, purge all the lines.
has it sprayed worse on humid days?



My minx has that same red? hope you can figure it out for all our sakes


joe

Tidbart
05-23-2008, 08:14 AM
George: Maybe your getting water.Check the air dryer, purge all the lines.
has it sprayed worse on humid days?
My minx has that same red? hope you can figure it out for all our sakes
joe

I would also say to look at your compressor. Is it drained?, Do you have an oiler inline or a filtration system? Maybe you are getting contamination from the air source.

B

gcarter
05-23-2008, 08:26 AM
I only have a seperator which I drain religiously, but no filter other that the inlet filter on the compressor. I'll look into doing something additional.

Rootsy
05-23-2008, 09:30 AM
I'd be adding a small micron filter post compressor, draining compressor daily, adding a desiccant post filter and running a water / particulate trap at the gun inlet. Maybe two desiccant / moisture removal systems post filter.... Buy a new air hose to use after you add all of the stuff to your compressor...

Conquistador_del_mar
05-23-2008, 11:44 AM
I've learned a lot in this project. Minicraft sells a reducer (thinner) that matches the chemical composition of their gel. I started off using about 25% and had horrible results. After another consulting session at Minicraft, they suggested no more than 5% reducer w/dark colors because there's no white titanium powder in it like in a white based gel that really needs thinning. Now I'm not using any of the reducer. I found I really don't need it and the results are better w/o it.
I've been wiping the surface down several times w/acetone. It takes that to really get it clean.
I'm thinking Wayne is on to something about the original gel and substrate quality (or lack thereof) may be at least part of the problem.
I'm pretty frustrated, but equally determined to do this thing right.
I'll definately try the "settling" idea on the next spraying session.
In fact, Minicraft suggested mixing up several batches (pints) of gel w/o catalyzing to save time. That automatically gives some time to the process.
I have decided it's more important to do whatever it takes to do a perfect job including having to buy more of the $100+/gal gel if that's what it takes.

George,
I have not shot too much gelcoat, but I have painted many boats with Imron. One thing I quickly learned was not to clean the final gelcoat surface with acetone or it would bring the wax to the surface causing fisheyes. I would do my final prep with a prepsolve - usually PPG 330 or another de-wax, de-silicone cleaner before painting. Your fisheyes might very well be caused by using acetone before spraying the gelcoat. Doing two wipedowns was almost always enough to eliminate fisheyes. Just thought I would pass this along. Bill

Carl C
05-23-2008, 01:16 PM
The rest of the shop is my water treatment company. If I can go OT briefly, George, do you sell water softeners and parts?

Tidbart
05-23-2008, 01:20 PM
If I can go OT briefly, George, do you sell water softeners and parts?

George has a Kinetico franchise.

B

Carl C
05-23-2008, 01:26 PM
George has a Kinetico franchise.

B Probably no parts for an old Culligan then? I need the whole water valve assembly. G, sorry about the hi-jack but if you can get me the part, you can make money. It would cost a fortune to ship a new conditioner from Florida unless they've made the resin tanks a lot lighter in recent years.

gcarter
05-23-2008, 03:10 PM
Carl, I get old Culligans in trade all of the time but they usually go into the dumpster. The next time I get one, I'll let you know.
If you want to move up and get something good, I can offer a refurbished Kinetico (but not a new one) and the shipping isn't as bad as you might think.

Carl C
05-23-2008, 09:02 PM
Carl, I get old Culligans in trade all of the time but they usually go into the dumpster. The next time I get one, I'll let you know.
If you want to move up and get something good, I can offer a refurbished Kinetico (but not a new one) and the shipping isn't as bad as you might think.This thing is humongous and can go a month without a recharge before you notice hard water That's why I like it so much. It's a mark 812 and over 15 years old. If you could find a valve in good shape I'd pay good money but most probably look like mine. Shoot me a price for a reman w/shipping. My water is not super hard and there are only 1 or 2 people. I hope you get the help you need spraying the gel.

gcarter
05-23-2008, 09:37 PM
That's an antique and wouldn't last five years here in Florida. I'll keep my eyes open. In the mean time, look at www.kinetico.com .

Carl C
05-23-2008, 09:53 PM
That's an antique and wouldn't last five years here in Florida. Yeah but check out that drier:cool:! Yup, I have the washer too. Thanks George, like I said, I hope you get the help you need on your gel thing.

Carl C
05-24-2008, 06:51 AM
ttt & back on topic.

gcarter
05-24-2008, 08:36 PM
Spayed some gel on the aft deck today.......
Here's a list of what I did to remedy the problem;
Thouroughly sanded the surface w/220 paper
Drained the compressor tank and water seperator
Added a disposable water and particle filter to the gun
Did'nt use any Acetone but instead cleaned the surface three times w/ BASF Lemco #203 degreaser, and silicone remover
Very carefully mixed the gel/ wax/ catalyst

Still had pinholes :garfield:

Here are some pics;

gcarter
05-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Now for some pinhole pics;
Look below the light reflection and the dozen or so points of light are pinholes

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36225&d=1211679551

gcarter
05-24-2008, 08:43 PM
Look at the lower central area, also the upper left central area;


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36226&d=1211679790

gcarter
05-24-2008, 08:48 PM
maybe one more picture, there are several just to the left of the cleat cutout;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36227&d=1211680083

gcarter
05-24-2008, 08:53 PM
The orange peel is normal, the gel is a lot thicker than paint and you have to really build it up......this is just the beginning. Next, you sand the entire surface w/220 while keeping it as flat as possible to get rid of the orange peel.

Conquistador_del_mar
05-25-2008, 01:47 AM
Spayed some gel on the aft deck today.......
Here's a list of what I did to remedy the problem;
Thouroughly sanded the surface w/220 paper
Drained the compressor tank and water seperator
Added a disposable water and particle filter to the gun
Did'nt use any Acetone but instead cleaned the surface three times w/ BASF Lemco #203 degreaser, and silacone remover
Very carefully mixed the gel/ wax/ catalyst

Still had pinholes :garfield:

Here are some pics;

George,
Very discouraging, althought the fisheyes don't look too deep in your pictures. If I had to guess at this point I would say that you have moisture coming out of your air hose even though the filter should have taken care of most of it. You might try running a freeflow of air into your hand and see if it seems a little moist. Was it laying any better than before? Good luck, Bill

Rootsy
05-27-2008, 07:18 AM
George,
how is your shop plumbed? Do you run the piping high and drop the outlets down to appropriate level? You'd be surprised at how much crap those little gun filters won't catch... they get a lot but not all... Especially if the moisture condenses in the gun as it picks up velocity through the small tip and the pressure drops. I've found that since by compressor plumbing runs along the ceiling and i do drops that I must have drains at my outlets otherwise moisture condenses in the line and settles at the quick connect.

gcarter
05-27-2008, 08:11 AM
I agree w/you, but this particular hose comes directly off the regulator/seperator.
And you're right, the humidity here is very high. It makes correcting things very difficult. For instance, all couplers leak a little....and condensed water will collect on the couplers and drip. I usually have to tie a rag around the coupler while I'm spraying.

glashole
05-27-2008, 09:10 AM
George

I am definitely not experienced with this and therefore have no opinion as to what may or may not work
I am also not sure what you are talking about when you say separator etc on your compressor

however i do know that we have an evaporator / condensor on our system here at the shop and it basically cools the air down and sucks the moisture out before it hits the lines

this may be what you have - like i said it sometimes needs to be dumbed up a bit for me :canada:

we also have drops like rootsy was saying where the line actually goes down past the quick connect and has a drain
this basically collects moisture from the lines

we are not spraying gel or anything like that obviously but it is what we have done to combat the moisure in the system :smash:

Shea

gcarter
05-27-2008, 10:32 AM
You have the answer, but it would be hard to justify it for my shop as this is just a hobby......
What I have is a regulator w/an attached centrifugal water/moisture seperator that I drain daily.

gold-n-rod
05-27-2008, 01:29 PM
Can you wall off a section of the building and run a dehumidifier? Maybe a cheap PVC/visqueen spray booth? If you have that much water condensing around the fittings, think about what's getting through in the compressed air.

VetteLT193
05-27-2008, 03:08 PM
is it possible to roll and tip gel coat? It seems thick enough to me, and may actually lay out flatter...

onesubdrvr
05-27-2008, 04:08 PM
George,

You know what I do for a living, and at Grainger (and in my business I hate Grainger ;) ) you can get a dessicant filter (reasonably priced). My recommendation would be to pick up one of these dessicant filters, a bunch of replacement dessicant, and a 2nd filter. Place the dessicant as close to the gun as you can (it's kind of bulky, so wall mount may be better), then directly after it, a particulate filter, something in the 15-40 micron range should be good. Then, change the dessicant daily or so.

The dessicant should help tremendously, if it's changed after each day of spraying. You MAY be able to extend the life of the dessicant by baking it in an oven to dry it off after use, but it's not that expensive to replace daily. Also, the 2nd filter may not be needed depending on the type of dessicant. I like to use activated alumina, but that can generate some pretty fine dust (hence the 2nd filter)

This may seem wasteful, but I think it may be the best all around way to go (least cost, best results for cost / etc.)

If you want, shoot me a message, and I'll do some research, and give you my part # recommendations.

Wayne

98shovel
05-27-2008, 05:52 PM
g
water in the air will couse the problem u are having also if your air hose is old it can gas off internally and create fisheyes go to your local auto paint store they have inline water filters that screw on at the spray gun their cheap and dispossable

mike o
05-27-2008, 07:10 PM
Hi, I spray gelcoat every morning building high end composite canoes here in new hampshire. redish gelcoats are the most tempermental, to humidity - moisture of all the colors, because of the lack of wax in it and it it takes. longer to cure... where white is the dryest., and much more forgiving. I Spray into a prepared mold and all ways give the redish colors a little more mek ( 3-5 cc per quart), and it is always still a tad sticky when I start the lay-up ...and always check the last section of the mold sprayed for cure before ... I have 4 water seperators in - line, as far from the compressor as possible , because any moisture in the lines are heated by the compressor and the farther way the seperators ... the better they work. When its really humid here, like it is everyday down there, I add a extra section of line and stick it in a dorm type refridgerator to cool the air hose before the seperators. I dont do repair work, but when its done (repair work that is), the gelcoat is sprayed really thin compared to OEM spray-ups, and thinner coats needs extra exotherm to cure, (because it does not generate heat when it cures being so thin). Any humidity in the air will slow the cure and cause big problems. Oil in the lines will be spotty in area and will discolor, but moisture will be more overall area wise........ You can spray some gelcoat on some small panes of glass and try different amounts of mek and even try the pva, (30 minutes after the gelcoat has kicked in a little paper cup from the spray batch), to find out if its the boats surface is the problem, or the prep. All gelcoats contain different amounts of wax, so try a test panel with a litte wax (surfacing agent), added also. Wish I could help More....... Ill bet its the 70-90% humidity slowing down the cure keeping, the styrene in the gelcoat hard to tell from the pics......... Mike O

Lenny
05-27-2008, 10:04 PM
George, as in the mold business and laying up hulls, (from my experiance and I was taught by very proficient people) I would entertain a "fan" and keep air moving over the project until kicked. Move the air and remove the styrene vapour from the area as it goes off.

If you spray gelcoat into an open mold and wait for it to go off, it WILL, but you will get "elephants feet" and similar situations as you are describing as well. In fact a disaster.

You HAVE to keep the air moving (fan) in an open application...

Styrene is your enemy. Remove it from the area as parts go off.

Just my $.02 :)

gcarter
05-27-2008, 10:16 PM
OK....
I'll order some desicant dryers tomorrow. I have another, new, hose. I even have a fan.
I'll lick this thing yet.

erikshube
05-28-2008, 12:32 AM
You have the answer, but it would be hard to justify it for my shop as this is just a hobby......
What I have is a regulator w/an attached centrifugal water/moisture seperator that I drain daily.

Maybe try looking on craigslist or your local classifieds for a small used line drier. My boss sold quite a sweet air compressor/evaporator/condenser combo that was left by the former owner of our building for a ridiculously low price. It sounds like spending a few hundred bucks would be money well spent. Plus, if your buddies are anything like mine, they would greatly appreciate you purchasing one. And you could use it for your next restoration!

mike o
05-29-2008, 09:24 AM
Hi, Mr. Carter.. You can call me at the shop, and I will give you a phone # of someone who can Help you. Mike O.... 603-968-7022 Ranger Canoe co.
Ashland N.H.

Tidbart
05-29-2008, 10:01 AM
George

Just a thought, have you looked into renting a spray booth at a local bodyshop to do the spraying, one with a temp/humidity controlled environment and clean/dry air?

Bob

gcarter
05-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Hi, I spray gelcoat every morning building high end composite canoes here in new hampshire. redish gelcoats are the most tempermental, to humidity - moisture of all the colors, because of the lack of wax in it and it it takes. longer to cure... where white is the dryest., and much more forgiving. I Spray into a prepared mold and all ways give the redish colors a little more mek ( 3-5 cc per quart), and it is always still a tad sticky when I start the lay-up ...and always check the last section of the mold sprayed for cure before ... I have 4 water seperators in - line, as far from the compressor as possible , because any moisture in the lines are heated by the compressor and the farther way the seperators ... the better they work. When its really humid here, like it is everyday down there, I add a extra section of line and stick it in a dorm type refridgerator to cool the air hose before the seperators. I dont do repair work, but when its done (repair work that is), the gelcoat is sprayed really thin compared to OEM spray-ups, and thinner coats needs extra exotherm to cure, (because it does not generate heat when it cures being so thin). Any humidity in the air will slow the cure and cause big problems. Oil in the lines will be spotty in area and will discolor, but moisture will be more overall area wise........ You can spray some gelcoat on some small panes of glass and try different amounts of mek and even try the pva, (30 minutes after the gelcoat has kicked in a little paper cup from the spray batch), to find out if its the boats surface is the problem, or the prep. All gelcoats contain different amounts of wax, so try a test panel with a litte wax (surfacing agent), added also. Wish I could help More....... Ill bet its the 70-90% humidity slowing down the cure keeping, the styrene in the gelcoat hard to tell from the pics......... Mike O
All your observations about red seem to be true. I guess I really asked for it on this boat. If it wasn't for the fact there were only ten of these boats built, I'd probably be painting it.
I'm adding one Oz. of Minicraft's wax to one Pt. of gel, and it's the wax that causes the "gloss" you see in the photos. The wax I remove w/ a large number of paper towels and acetone. And, yes, it stays tacky until I remove the wax and sand it at least once.
Thanks Mike for the phone #. I'm goig to wait to call you until I get the disposable driers and other items which will take several days.

Bob, that's a great idea, but this is an ongoing process and to rent that much time in someones bay would be unaffordable for me.

In the mean time I'll just keep preparing the rest of the deck.

DonziJon
05-29-2008, 06:42 PM
George: Picture a Fighter Jet doing high "G" maneuvers, such as a way too high nose attitude..approaching a stall. You've seen the pictures with Vapor Clouds around the wings. Maybe you've seen wing vortices trailing off the wing tips of an airliner under certain conditions.

I've got an idea that no one has touched on. Maybe your problem is NOT between your spray gun and the compressor. I'm thinking your moisture problem may be between the nozzle of the gun and the target.

High velocity air exiting the nozzle (in high humidity) is causing moisture in the room air beyond the nozzle to "persipitate"...turning to rain.. if you will. Maybe you can experiment with lowering the velocity (air pressure) at the nozzle and trying a different size (tip) nozzle to compensate.

It took me 6 months to learn how to spray polyurethane varnish with an air brush when I was building mahogany speedboat models.

During this learning period, I talked with the varnish manufacturer and they told me NOT to thin the varnish more tha 10% or the result would be a "flat" finish. They were WRONG. My final solution was lower pressure at the nozzle, a different nozzle, and the varnish thinned 40%. (Forty Percent)

The result was high gloss..no imperfections whatsoever. Food for thought. John

zelatore
05-29-2008, 06:45 PM
All this talk reminds me just how much I am NOT an artist and exactly why I never did body work on my cars or gel work on my boats!

I'll gladly spin a wrench or break out a meter to troubleshoot an electrical problem any day of the week compared to this!

Cuda
05-29-2008, 07:49 PM
I only have a seperator which I drain religiously, but no filter other that the inlet filter on the compressor. I'll look into doing something additional.
I put two water separators on my compressor before shooting the paint on the Formula I repainted. Come on George, if you can install TWO oil filters on your boat, you can certainly install two water separators on your compressor. :)

Cuda
05-29-2008, 07:51 PM
George,
I have not shot too much gelcoat, but I have painted many boats with Imron. One thing I quickly learned was not to clean the final gelcoat surface with acetone or it would bring the wax to the surface causing fisheyes. I would do my final prep with a prepsolve - usually PPG 330 or another de-wax, de-silicone cleaner before painting. Your fisheyes might very well be caused by using acetone before spraying the gelcoat. Doing two wipedowns was almost always enough to eliminate fisheyes. Just thought I would pass this along. Bill
I was told not to use acetone for wipe down before spraying paint, but right now, I don't remember what I used. I think it started with a D, and it wasn't denatured alcohol.

Cuda
05-29-2008, 07:54 PM
George,
how is your shop plumbed? Do you run the piping high and drop the outlets down to appropriate level? You'd be surprised at how much crap those little gun filters won't catch... they get a lot but not all... Especially if the moisture condenses in the gun as it picks up velocity through the small tip and the pressure drops. I've found that since by compressor plumbing runs along the ceiling and i do drops that I must have drains at my outlets otherwise moisture condenses in the line and settles at the quick connect.
That's exactly the directions that came with my second water separator.

Cuda
05-29-2008, 07:56 PM
You have the answer, but it would be hard to justify it for my shop as this is just a hobby......
What I have is a regulator w/an attached centrifugal water/moisture seperator that I drain daily.
You can buy the big water separator I bought cheap at Harbor Freight. I also use a disposable filter at the gun. So it's really three chances to get rid of the water.

Cuda
05-29-2008, 08:02 PM
All this talk reminds me just how much I am NOT an artist and exactly why I never did body work on my cars or gel work on my boats!
I'll gladly spin a wrench or break out a meter to troubleshoot an electrical problem any day of the week compared to this!
I agree. I never held a paint gun in my hand, before I painted my 20 foot Formula. You can walk around it, and see where I got better at it as I went. By the time I got to the transom, you couldn't have paid any amount of money to get a better looking job. Even when it was dry, it was so shiny, it looked like you could stick your arm elbow deep in the paint, and I used cheap paint. :)

Donzi Racer
05-29-2008, 08:35 PM
OK....
I'll order some desicant dryers tomorrow. I have another, new, hose. I even have a fan.
I'll lick this thing yet.

Geez George, I just read the whole post and you have me scared slap crazy about doing the triple hatch in a deep red Gel. Now what is the problem with imron again? I know about the 10 boats and all and there aren't a lot of triple hatch Barrel Backs also, but since we will be gel coating less than 100 miles from you, you have me thinking very hard. You have me curious enough to come see it. I hope to be there in a day or three. Good luck, if anyone can get er done, it is you good buddy. See you soon, Tom

gcarter
06-07-2008, 11:21 AM
So I bought a couple dozen disposable dryers. I already had a new, virgin air hose. I installed a second filter/seperator at the regulator and this morning I shot two more guns (pints) of gel.
The internet says it's 86* F and 55% humidity, but my temp gun says the surfaces are 92*-95* (not in the sun, but near the door) and I am completely soaked.
I had a single dryer screwed onto the gun and I started shooting......it started out pretty good. A single dryer lasts just less than a pint of gel, so that's a problem. Maybe I can put two on in series.
Anyway I shot a little more than the last time I posted some pics and I probably have a 60% reduction in holes. I'm not ready to give up.
Anyone want to comment?

VetteLT193
06-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Geez George, I just read the whole post and you have me scared slap crazy about doing the triple hatch in a deep red Gel. Now what is the problem with imron again? I know about the 10 boats and all and there aren't a lot of triple hatch Barrel Backs also, but since we will be gel coating less than 100 miles from you, you have me thinking very hard. You have me curious enough to come see it. I hope to be there in a day or three. Good luck, if anyone can get er done, it is you good buddy. See you soon, Tom

None of these boats are truly original anyway. If you really want original say bye bye to upgraded steering, more power, better exhaust, etc.

Donzi used Gel because it was cheaper for them. Paint is much better (Awlgrip/Imron). There is a reason why high end boats aren't gel, including the new high end Donzi's. Painted boats are easier to clean, maintain, and they look better too.

I have had boats painted and gel. The boats that were gel were always a PITA to keep looking decent and always required much more maintenance than the painted ones.

gcarter
06-07-2008, 07:31 PM
I just bought a used refrigerant dryer and it'll be here on Thursday.
I think it'll make a big difference.

onesubdrvr
06-07-2008, 07:35 PM
I just bought a used refrigerant drier and it'll be here on Thursday.
I think it'll make a big difference.

George,

It'll make a HUGE difference, and it's a good move. The in-line filters (as you noted above) work, but not nearly as well as the dryers. Even with the replacable dessicant, it's too hard to control, and of course you don't want to be trying to change the dessicant in the middle of spraying a qt. of gel.

If you have any problems with it, let me know, and I'll get it fixed up for you.

Wayne

gcarter
06-07-2008, 07:46 PM
George,

It'll make a HUGE difference, and it's a good move. The in-line filters (as you noted above) work, but not nearly as well as the dryers. Even with the replacable dessicant, it's too hard to control, and of course you don't want to be trying to change the dessicant in the middle of spraying a qt. of gel.

If you have any problems with it, let me know, and I'll get it fixed up for you.

Wayne
Thanks Wayne.
Your input is always welcome.

onesubdrvr
06-07-2008, 07:53 PM
One thing George,

If you don't leave it on all the time, make sure you turn it on like 20 minutes before you turn on your compressor, it takes a little time for it to come down in temperature. If you turn them both on at the same time and begin to spray, you'll still have problems until it cools down.

I tell my customers to leave them on all the time, but they run at least 12 hours a day.

Wayne

VetteLT193
06-09-2008, 07:03 AM
I was just reading that there are in fact people that roll gel coat. That may be easier. Or, maybe you can spray and tip it with a brush.

gcarter
06-09-2008, 11:30 AM
I was just reading that there are in fact people that roll gel coat. That may be easier. Or, maybe you can spray and tip it with a brush.
My goal isn't just to get gel onto the boat, but to do it perfectly. I've rolled and tipped gel before, but in areas where it doesn't much matter.
My end result will be indistinguishable from being pulled from a mold. However long it takes me.

98shovel
06-09-2008, 02:14 PM
g
good move on the dryer it should cure the problem with your air supply
mine will take 175 inlet air temp check the new one u may need to run some bigger pipe into it to give the air time to cool a little before entering the dryer i leave mine on 24/7
after dryer install start with a new hose again or plug a fitting in and blow lots of air through to make sure the hose is cleaned out good luck

gcarter
06-09-2008, 02:55 PM
g
good move on the dryer it should cure the problem with your air supply
mine will take 175 inlet air temp check the new one u may need to run some bigger pipe into it to give the air time to cool a little before entering the dryer i leave mine on 24/7
after dryer install start with a new hose again or plug a fitting in and blow lots of air through to make sure the hose is cleaned out good luck
When I put up the hanging straps and chains, I also ran a 3/4" CPVC line from the compressor, up 18', over 35', and down to my second 12' door. I've not plumbed it up yet. By the door is where I'll place the dryer. It came w/2 filters-seperators and a regulator. It's good for 35* dew point @ 10 CFM...just about like the compressor and way more than I need for for spraying. Pretty neat buy. As soon as it arrives, I'll post some pics.
I'll get more hose.....it's cheap compared to all the gel I've wasted.

mike o
06-09-2008, 03:07 PM
Mr. Carter , it was 70 degrees with 80% humidy at 7am this morning. Thats a heat wave here in new hampshire for us. I mixed 25 cc / quart with a medical syringe, using 50% mek.. (not the 30% mek ), on the boat I sprayed up this morning.





I turned on the hot air furnace for ten minutes and blew air with a fan (like yours in one of your pictures) and the gelcoat still kicked slow in the mold with the humidy. and I also use a fan evey time. I was thinking about your delema ... We only get this sticky hot weather a couple of times a year. I just get up early during the humid weather and spray the gel as early as possable. Why is the surface temp the boat hotter than your air temp? Dont let the sun hit the boat or the gelcoat before or after you spray it up, it will cross - link to fast ( my new hulls dont see the sun for 3 days , it increases the fabric print thru on the new hull) because of srinkage.... Also in one of your pictures, It looked liked you new gel was really ultra glossy... which it shouldnt be with the surfacing agent ( which cooks up to the top and dulls the gel ). and should be pretty much dry after an overnite cure. the longer you leave it (days), the easy it will wet sand because it will hardend, full cure in one month actually. Still got my number? Michael

gcarter
06-09-2008, 05:13 PM
Mr. Carter , it was 70 degrees with 80% humidy at 7am this morning. Thats a heat wave here in new hampshire for us. I mixed 25 cc / quart with a medical syringe, using 50% mek.. (not the 30% mek ), on the boat I sprayed up this morning.





I turned on the hot air furnace for ten minutes and blew air with a fan (like yours in one of your pictures) and the gelcoat still kicked slow in the mold with the humidy. and I also use a fan evey time. I was thinking about your delema ... We only get this sticky hot weather a couple of times a year. I just get up early during the humid weather and spray the gel as early as possable. Why is the surface temp the boat hotter than your air temp? Dont let the sun hit the boat or the gelcoat before or after you spray it up, it will cross - link to fast ( my new hulls dont see the sun for 3 days , it increases the fabric print thru on the new hull) because of srinkage.... Also in one of your pictures, It looked liked you new gel was really ultra glossy... which it shouldnt be with the surfacing agent ( which cooks up to the top and dulls the gel ). and should be pretty much dry after an overnite cure. the longer you leave it (days), the easy it will wet sand because it will hardend, full cure in one month actually. Still got my number? Michael
The temperature was taken w/ a laser temp gun. I don't have a thermometer in the shop...OK, one more thing to get. I suspect the difference is that my shop is warmer than the reporting station. It was 99* when I went home the other day.
The gloss.....I suspect it's the wax I added to the gel (1 OZ. per pint). But I'm not sure. whatever, it comes off w/a paper towel and some acetone and it's not actually part of the gel. Then it's flat like you mentioned. I let it set up overnight. Minicraft said I should be able to handle it in 2 1/2 hours, but that's clearly not the case so I let it go much longer.
I'm sanding the gelled surface to prep it for the next try which won't happen until I get the dryer in place. So hopefully this weekend I'll try again.

VetteLT193
06-10-2008, 06:55 AM
My goal isn't just to get gel onto the boat, but to do it perfectly. I've rolled and tipped gel before, but in areas where it doesn't much matter.
My end result will be indistinguishable from being pulled from a mold. However long it takes me.

gotcha, I figured since you were sanding the heck out of it anyway it wouldn't make any difference. But, I have never rolled or sprayed gel so what the heck do I know :smash:

gcarter
06-12-2008, 09:24 AM
It came today in the little Brown Truck....no dents, broken pieces, or anything like that! You can always be grateful when good things happen!
I plugged it in, the temp gauge immediately went to about 33*. I blew into the opening and cold air came out. It's a Wilkerson, 10 SCFM @ 33*F dew point. Perfect for my application.
Now I just have to finish my plumbing.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36594&d=1213280647

zelatore
06-12-2008, 09:42 AM
Wow. Nothing says 'industrial equipment' quite like that particular shade of blue.

We'll be waiting for the results :crossfing:

joseph m. hahnl
06-15-2008, 09:11 AM
Donzi used Gel because it was cheaper for them. Paint is much better (Awlgrip/Imron). There is a reason why high end boats aren't gel, including the new high end Donzi's. Painted boats are easier to clean, maintain, and they look better too.

.


Paint scratches and wears out in high traffic areas. Good wax with UV protection and faithful application on gel coat will Keep it pretty.


As far as gel coat being cheaper I beg to differ. I"m sure the High end boats you are talking about Are carbon fiber and not Glass, Or the paint schemes are unobtainable with Gel

My Minx Has paint on it All of it has come off the bottom below the water line. Also blistering and scratches from the occasional bump on the dock:doh:.

So I hope George figures this out, Because my Plan is to follow his method. Minus the hundred gallons of Gel:wink:

So what I guess You could say is paint is for show not for GO:shocking:!!!!!!

mike o
06-15-2008, 11:50 AM
Im paying $2.80 /lb for white gelcoat , which is the cheapest color, to $3.40- 3.75/lb for the colored gelcoat including red. Yellow (which I dont use) is one of the most $$$ colors at almost 4.00 per lb. Prices are for a 5 gallon pail. I use a low viscosity gelcoat (with a uv inhibitor cooked in) to spray as thin as possiable because of the thin canoe hull laminates. A 5 gallon pail is 55 lbs net weight which costs about around $150. For repair work, you thin the gelcoat with styrene to spray through a paint gun with a #2 needle. I use a cup gun. The nozzle is the size of pencil, so no thining needed. Nice looking dryier...........

gcarter
06-15-2008, 12:06 PM
Set up the dryer yesterday. I found out why it was "made redundant" as the Brits say. After the air is refrigerated, the water condenses, just like in an air conditioner. The dryer system drain, the last stage, is a typical bowl type seperator where the water collects. There is a float mechanism in the bowl that rises with the water level, opening at a certain heighth (or depth...however you think about such things) and drains the collected water (it's blown out the bottom of the bowl).
This dryer was apparently in some sort of industrial installation probably supplying dry instrumentation air judging by the size of the lines attached to it. At some point the sealing O-ring for the bowl failed, and instead of simply exchanging for a new O-ring, the idiot maintenance dufus put a bead of black rubber goop in the O-ring groove. Of course it leaked, and apparently the dryer was replaced. I still got a good deal. All I had to do was clean the bowl and seperator housing of the goop. But I have to wait till tomorrow to buy some replacement O-rings.

VetteLT193
06-16-2008, 07:58 AM
Paint scratches and wears out in high traffic areas. Good wax with UV protection and faithful application on gel coat will Keep it pretty.


As far as gel coat being cheaper I beg to differ. I"m sure the High end boats you are talking about Are carbon fiber and not Glass, Or the paint schemes are unobtainable with Gel

My Minx Has paint on it All of it has come off the bottom below the water line. Also blistering and scratches from the occasional bump on the dock:doh:.

So I hope George figures this out, Because my Plan is to follow his method. Minus the hundred gallons of Gel:wink:

So what I guess You could say is paint is for show not for GO:shocking:!!!!!!

I shouldn't say paint as much as I should say 2 part polyurethanes etc. Compared to gel they are harder, more durable, not porous, fade resistant, etc.

The boats I talk about are not custom painted.
Hatteras is a perfect example, no boat leaves the factory with gelcoat. On our 45 Viking the ****pit was Imron, including the floor, it blew gelcoat away. Zero scratching and a good cleanup was minutes instead of hours. Almost every working boat will be painted. Ask around Sport fishing charters next time you happen to be around them.

Formula uses Imron. Try to find one used that is faded or has paint problems. It will take you a while because almost all of them look great even after 20 years.... And the stern graphics are usually underwater on them too.

The absolute biggest problem with paint is cheap paint. Cheap paint has/will leave a bad impression. It sounds like your Minx has cheap paint (so did mine before I sanded it all off)

The guy my Minx is going to in the Keys exclusively sprays Awlgrip and he is slammed with customers. In big time boating places you will have a hell of a time finding people to re-gel your boat.

George has something most of us do not have: interior storage. It's the best way to keep gel looking good because outside gel is just a ticking time bomb (covers will slow the destruction process, but it will still happen).

Regardless, we all know George's boat is going to be better than new when done no matter what he uses!!

Conquistador_del_mar
06-16-2008, 10:55 AM
Paint scratches and wears out in high traffic areas. Good wax with UV protection and faithful application on gel coat will Keep it pretty.


As far as gel coat being cheaper I beg to differ. I"m sure the High end boats you are talking about Are carbon fiber and not Glass, Or the paint schemes are unobtainable with Gel

My Minx Has paint on it All of it has come off the bottom below the water line. Also blistering and scratches from the occasional bump on the dock:doh:.

So I hope George figures this out, Because my Plan is to follow his method. Minus the hundred gallons of Gel:wink:

So what I guess You could say is paint is for show not for GO:shocking:!!!!!!

You hit on the only negative concerning polyurethane enamels vs gelcoats. They do not do well if left in the water for extended periods of time - it softens the paint. For that matter, gelcoated boats develop blisters if they are not barrier coated and antifouled if they were made with polyester resin gelcoats due to osmosis. The rule of thumb I used to tell my customers is one week. At that point they should be pulled and allowed to stay dry for a while. I am only talking about the under water hull portion. If they are trailered like my boats, it is not an issue. Imron will not fade or loose its gloss like gelcoat. Dupont's old slogan for Imron was "the wet look that lasts" - and it does! Bill


I shouldn't say paint as much as I should say 2 part polyurethanes etc. Compared to gel they are harder, more durable, not porous, fade resistant, etc.

The boats I talk about are not custom painted.
Hatteras is a perfect example, no boat leaves the factory with gelcoat. On our 45 Viking the ****pit was Imron, including the floor, it blew gelcoat away. Zero scratching and a good cleanup was minutes instead of hours. Almost every working boat will be painted. Ask around Sport fishing charters next time you happen to be around them.

Formula uses Imron. Try to find one used that is faded or has paint problems. It will take you a while because almost all of them look great even after 20 years.... And the stern graphics are usually underwater on them too.

The absolute biggest problem with paint is cheap paint. Cheap paint has/will leave a bad impression. It sounds like your Minx has cheap paint (so did mine before I sanded it all off)

The guy my Minx is going to in the Keys exclusively sprays Awlgrip and he is slammed with customers. In big time boating places you will have a hell of a time finding people to re-gel your boat.

George has something most of us do not have: interior storage. It's the best way to keep gel looking good because outside gel is just a ticking time bomb (covers will slow the destruction process, but it will still happen).

Regardless, we all know George's boat is going to be better than new when done no matter what he uses!!

I was the first in my area of north Texas to start using Imron in about 1986. If I were still painting for the public, I would also be slammed with work like I was back then. I was working 70+ hours a week and could not keep up. My customers were always shocked at how their old faded gelcoated boats could look. Many of them had been debating buying a new boat until they were painted. Some of the boat manufacturers back then had bad batches of gelcoat that would fade on the deck in the first year. I sure wish I had been charging for my services like the guys are getting today! Bill

gcarter
06-18-2008, 02:32 PM
Well, it's done!!!!
Had to buy a couple of new bowls and drains. It's all together. I rearranged the filters and regulator. Orriginally it was regulator/seperator, coalescing filter, carbon filter. It didn't mount or balance very well so while re-rigging it, I made it; coalescing filter, regulator/seperator, carbon filter. Now it seems to make more sense with the coalescing filter (oil/water/particulate) first. It's plugged in and working.
Maybe tomorrow I'll shoot some more gel.

Conquistador_del_mar
06-18-2008, 05:55 PM
Well, it's done!!!!
Had to buy a couple of new bowls and drains. It's all together. I rearranged the filters and regulator. Orriginally it was regulator/seperator, coalescing filter, carbon filter. It didn't mont or balance very well so while re-rigging it, I made it; particulate/water filter, regulator/seperator, carbon filter. Now it seems to make more sense with the coalescing filter (oil/water/particulate) first. It's plugged in and working.
Maybe tomorrow I'll shoot some more gel.

George,
I didn't mention it, but I have to say that I greatly admire your perseverance. Not very many people have what it takes to follow a task to the end without wavering. I hope this new air system does the trick. Good luck. Hat is off, Bill

BigGrizzly
06-19-2008, 10:02 AM
I would compliment George like Bill, However I know him and that is just the way he is!!!! Halfa$$ is not in his vocabulary. Every year we have lunch on our belated birthday and this year is my turn to buy! We have great discussions for a couple of hours then I am off again. Who knows maybe I will drive down just to be on time this time.

MOP
06-19-2008, 10:48 AM
Randy to put it another way George is a great guy that is pleasantly Anal, you and I have both been to his shop. Ken and I had the pleasure of being his guests last year for the Dora show, we got to spend a few days and evenings with him Lanie. George being a Marine Engineer has one of the most extensive libraries of all kinds of what is and whats not. Anyone else would having given up the ghost long ago not George! It will be done and done RIGHT! And that is that! God Bless Him!

Phil

gcarter
06-19-2008, 12:22 PM
Thanks guys.......this is embarrassing

gcarter
06-21-2008, 02:06 PM
Today probably wasn't the best day to try the new dryer, but time goes by all too quickly anyway.
It's raining! So the humidity has to be at least 100%. That can't help.
I shot two cans of gel and it went pretty well. I did have a few holes, but I was able to "blow them out" which makes me think it was humidity sourced, not spray air sourced. Previously, the holes were very deep and completely unresponsive and acted like fisheyes in paint. These were different.
I also used a desicant cartridge on the gun, so now I know the air is REALLY dry. The refrigerant dryer removes about 95% of the moisture (to a dew point of 33*F), then with the dessicant dryer cartridge, it's lowered to about -20*F dew point or so. The really good news is after spraying two cans, the dessicant was still colored blue, i.e., it was still active and removing water. Previously, it wouldn't last but about 1/2 of a can.
The few holes that exist don't look to be any deeper than the orange peel so they should sand out easily. I'll know more tomorrow.

Conquistador_del_mar
06-21-2008, 08:06 PM
Today probably wasn't the best day to try the new dryer, but time goes by all too quickly anyway.
It's raining! So the humidity has to be at least 100%. That can't help.
I shot two cans of gel and it went pretty well. I did have a few holes, but I was able to "blow them out" which makes me think it was humidity sourced, not spray air sourced. Previously, the holes were very deep and completely unresponsive and acted like fisheyes in paint. These were different.
I also used a desicant cartridge on the gun, so now I know the air is REALLY dry. The refrigerant dryer removes about 95% of the moisture (to a dew point of 33*F), then with the dessicant dryer cartridge, it's lowered to about -20*F dew point or so. The really good news is after spraying two cans, the dessicant was still colored blue, i.e., it was still active and removing water. Previously, it wouldn't last but about 1/2 of a can.
The few holes that exist don't look to be any deeper than the orange peel so they should sand out easily. I'll know more tomorrow.

George,
I am glad to hear that you have made positive progress. You deserved a break! Bill

gcarter
07-07-2008, 03:38 PM
I finished gelling the deck today. I sprayed 1/2 gallon on the fore deck this afternoon w/o any holes that I could find anyway.
A few unfortunate things did happen though....between the third and fourth guns of gel, I stopped and cleaned the gun. As I walked by the deck, I pulled off one of my gloves and as it snapped off, all the sweat inside it flew onto the fresh gel. No biggie, it'll sand out.
Then there's the two Love Bugs that got onto the surface......that's a bigger repair but that's what patch paste is for.
After figuring out the moisture problem (thanks again for all the input everyone), I was able to further refine my spraying technique. Now I'm able to spray the surface w/very little orange peel. The less orange peel, the less sanding I have to do.
In the pictures, you'll see the shiny foredeck, the gloss is from the wax added to the gel. When I wash it off w/acetone tomorrow, it'll look flat. Then I start sanding, and sanding, and sanding.....
The sides of the deck and the aft deck are sanded smooth and flat and are ready to start color sanding.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37115&d=1215463108

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37116&d=1215463108
Then, notice the home of the air dryer on its new cheap Chinese cart from Harbor Freight. Also notice the new fan. I must say the fans really help w/the curing. They'll both be on all night till tomorrow.

jvcobra
07-08-2008, 10:09 AM
Excellent job! Would you mind posting a quick parts list of equipment used to obtain this result (gun, dryer, etc)? I plan to shoot some gel on the bottom of my 22 over the winter and this would be a great reference. Basically I'm starting with a clean slate.

Thanks!

Joe

gcarter
07-08-2008, 10:48 AM
I have a 12 SCFM compressor, a very inexpensive HVLP gravity feed gun from Lowes. Understanding that you eventually throw the gun away because it seems you never get all the gel out of it.
I use a DeVilbis bag kit which allows the gel to be put into zip-loc bags inside the gun can.
Then I recently bought the Wilkerson dryer on eBay. It has a 10 SCFM capacity which is more than enough for spraying. Most I saw for sale were much larger than my compressor's capacity. Mine cost $250.00 and is in very good condition. A new one just like it is about $1000.00.
Oh yeah, two fans. Various new hoses.
Hope this helps.
BTW, I guess spraying gel is more like spraying mastic or undercoating than paint. I found if I really slow down and hold the gun at about 12" from the surface, it goes on very well.

BigGrizzly
07-08-2008, 11:04 AM
George I am glad your making progress.

gcarter
07-08-2008, 02:29 PM
Here's a picture of the next step of finishing the gel.
I use both a 20" block and an air file, both w/180 adhesive backed continuous paper. At this point, the paper will fill in about 10 seconds. later it does better as soon as more of the gel's surface is removed.
Gotta looooong way to go.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37151&d=1215545341

glashole
07-08-2008, 02:42 PM
George

you ever think of just buying a new boat?? :)

Conquistador_del_mar
07-08-2008, 07:05 PM
George,
You should have the straightest deck ever built after file block sanding it so many times. Out of curiosity, how many gallons of gelcoat have you now shot? It should be flawlessly beautiful when you are done! I have now finished building my new transom and gelcoating it so I will be moving along with my 1971 project. Bill


Here's a picture of the next step of finishing the gel.
I use both a 20" block and an air file, both w/180 adhesive backed continuous paper. At this point, the paper will fill in about 10 seconds. later it does better as soon as more of the gel's surface is removed.
Gotta looooong way to go.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37151&d=1215545341

gcarter
07-08-2008, 07:09 PM
Thanks Bill.
I just finished the third gallon. I have two left and I'll probably have to buy two more.....might as well be three the way they price it.
Good luck on your 18.

mike o
07-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Looks like your on your way now, congatulations

gcarter
07-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Thanks Mike.
It seems this initial sanding is a thankless task. The resin coated paper lasts no time at all. I blow it out and use a file card to remove the really hard stuff that crusts up on it. I'm guessing the gel probably takes a good month to fully cure. Once I get through the surface this characteristic completely vanishes......but ya gotta get there first.
I think color sanding will be a snap compared with this.
Today I'm about a third through w/the foredeck.

mike o
07-09-2008, 05:08 PM
Yep, once you get down below the inhibited cured top (even with the wax) added .... and get to the hard stuff, you feel like you getting some where.... And maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel............

DonziJon
07-09-2008, 06:14 PM
George: I'm just wondering:

1. Why are you not Wet Sanding with a light water flow under the paper?

2. Ever think of Vacume Bagging? :smash: John

gcarter
07-09-2008, 08:12 PM
#1 is a really good question.
The point here is to get the surface flat first. To do that, I have to use some fairly course, but not too course, paper. Not only flat, but down below the entire sprayed surface. I can't spray gel as evenly as paint, so the surface is always somewhat uneven. Afterall, I'm trying to build up more than 0.020" of gel. I need about 0.015" after I finish sanding. Also remember this stuff sprays like goo and I don't have a gun designed for this application like Mike O has. So it ends up being a lot of work.
Next, I start color sanding. Well, not quite next. Next, I'll use something like 320 or 400 paper, still on a 20" block to remove the sanding marks from the 180 paper. After the 400 paper, which happens to be the finest resin coated paper I can get on a continuous roll, I'll start color sanding. I'll use some 800 wet-or-dry paper on a hand sized block and a bucket of water and a bunch of towels. Again, I'm eliminating the sand scratches from the 400 paper. Then I go on to 1200 paper, etc till I get to 2000 paper.
After ya get to 800 paper, you already can see a reflection in the surface, just not very shiny.
What ya don't want to do is leave any scratch marks from the 400 or 800 or 1200 paper.
Actually, all this part goes a lot faster than what I'm doing now.

gcarter
07-09-2008, 08:17 PM
Vacuum bagging is a process used for laying glass and getting good resin penetration.

DonziJon
07-10-2008, 09:19 AM
Vacuum bagging is a process used for laying glass and getting good resin penetration.

Okie Dokey: I know vacume bagging is used quite a lot up here in Rhode Island where Custom Boatbuilding is doing quite well in spite of the economy. Rich people are still spending. :)

I wasn't sure, but I thought maybe vacume bagging might give you a good finish ..."right out of the bag".. hopefully like.. "right out of a mold".

I used to use 100 grit wet/dry (sheets) on the botom of my sailboat to remove a years worth of anti-fowling paint in a few swipes. (Down to gelcoat) I had to wear rubber gloves to prevent my fingers from getting bloody. The paint was the "soft" variety of bottom paint which helped. I could take down One side of the bottom of the C&C 32 in a couple of hours sanding by hand. Gawd I miss those days. When I was done I would be Blue all over. :nilly: John

mike o
07-10-2008, 10:51 AM
#1 is a really good question.
The point here is to get the surface flat first. To do that, I have to use some fairly course, but not too course, paper. Not only flat, but down below the entire sprayed surface. I can't spray gel as evenly as paint, so the surface is always somewhat uneven. Afterall, I'm trying to build up more than 0.020" of gel. I need about 0.015" after I finish sanding. Also remember this stuff sprays like goo and I don't have a gun designed for this application like Mike O has. So it ends up being a lot of work.
Next, I start color sanding. Well, not quite next. Next, I'll use something like 320 or 400 paper, still on a 20" block to remove the sanding marks from the 180 paper. After the 400 paper, which happens to be the finest resin coated paper I can get on a continuous roll, I'll start color sanding. I'll use some 800 wet-or-dry paper on a hand sized block and a bucket of water and a bunch of towels. Again, I'm eliminating the sand scratches from the 400 paper. Then I go on to 1200 paper, etc till I get to 2000 paper.
After ya get to 800 paper, you already can see a reflection in the surface, just not very shiny.
What ya don't want to do is leave any scratch marks from the 400 or 800 or 1200 paper.
Actually, all this part goes a lot faster than what I'm doing now.
My gun is a cup gun, which is the type I use since I dont buy my gelcoat by the 55 gallon drum. I make 6 different colored canoes so I buy it by the 5 gallon pail for shelf life issues. The gun is made by made by E-S manufacturing, You can google sweet composites and look for it under equipment, there not really expensive. Its got a reuseable aluminum lid, with several different nozzles, with quart paper cups for the gelcoat. The #2 nozzel sprays pretty fine and you dont have to thin the gelcoat to shoot it. I spray with a #5 nozzle, since the mold surface provides the flatness of the hull. 220 wet- dry and a bar of Ivory soap with water, helps wth the paper loading up. Might save alittle of the expense on the sand paper. and if you sand with a x fashion... ie. 45 degree angles to each other , you cancel out the scratches with each pass and it will become flatter faster......

gcarter
07-10-2008, 12:09 PM
Thanks Mike.
I've been utilizing the X sanding pattern, and you're right, it does go faster.
I can sand faster w/the 20" block than the air file, but it's pretty tiring.
I mean it's a real workout...91* today w/90% humidity.

gold-n-rod
07-10-2008, 05:05 PM
Thanks Mike.
I've been utilizing the X sanding pattern, and you're right, it does go faster.
I can sand faster w/the 20" block than the air file, but it's pretty tiring.
I mean it's a real workout...91* today w/90% humidity.

George: I don't like your kind of boating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smash::smash::smash:

When it's 90*/90%, I godamm well want to be out on the water!!!

To each his own, my mama used to say.

gcarter
07-10-2008, 07:35 PM
Randy, I generally din't do much boating in the summer .....uh....even when I have a boat that floats and runs.
Just too blasted hot. Not much fun in the no wake zones. If I'm gonna be real uncomfortable, I figure I might as well get something useful done.
I was hoping to be doing this back in March but it didn't happen.

gold-n-rod
07-11-2008, 07:01 AM
Randy, I generally din't do much boating in the summer .....uh....even when I have a boat that floats and runs.
Just too blasted hot. Not much fun in the no wake zones. If I'm gonna be real uncomfortable, I figure I might as well get something useful done.
I was hoping to be doing this back in March but it didn't happen.

I'm just bustin' your chops, George.

We have just one boating season here and have to get it when we can. And I avoid no wake zones...... open water, baby!!!!!!!

gcarter
07-11-2008, 07:07 PM
I've finished sanding the foredeck.
Well, mostly anyway. I'm glad too. That's a lot of hard work.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37200&d=1215821229
I still have to fill a few small holes, very small and very few. Also there's a few very small pieces of debris in the gel, all very small, one black, one white, and one silver colored. Haven't a clue where they came from, but they'll be gone tomorrow. I'll cut them out w/the Dremel and fill everything w/patch paste.
Then there's the hole where the Love Bug landed. The other one sanded out, but this one I'll have to fill.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37201&d=1215821229

Then I still have to sand the stbd side of the shoe box joint (you know, where the rub rail goes). Also three small areas of the engine hatch area.

onesubdrvr
07-11-2008, 07:49 PM
George,

Nice progress!! :) I know the pain of sanding from my paint work. I typically sand to 2000 grit before polishing. Because of the size of the paint objects though, they can't be machine sanded,..... here you've hand sanded most of the foredeck,... I am impressed :wink:

Looking good now, won't be long!

Wayne

cutwater
07-12-2008, 01:15 PM
Everything is really shaping up nicely, George. This will be a beautiful boat when you are done working your magic. Well worth the effort.

kramsay1234
07-12-2008, 03:56 PM
yeh - I keep logging in and checking this thread so I can see the progress and look for more pictures. Very impressive the work you are putting into it. Will be nothing short of perfect I'm sure.

VetteLT193
07-24-2008, 10:58 AM
George, how's it coming along? Looking good so far.

gcarter
07-24-2008, 11:14 AM
George, how's it coming along? Looking good so far.
There's some pictures I posted yesterday here;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53462
It's a pretty time intensive undertaking.

gcarter
07-26-2008, 08:37 PM
I've been sanding the deck for over a week now. Lots of fun. I've made it all the way around the boat in cluding part of the foredeck. Also including the engine hatch opening....that's really a lot of fun. All those surfaces, curves, channels, and other shapes. I am now on 800 grit wet-or-dry paper. Today I sanded about 60% of the port foredeck. Please notice how flat the deck came out. I must say, I'm really proud of that.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37507&d=1217122627

Next is a picture of the port rear quarter. It came out pretty good too. It doesn't show up in the picture very well, but there's a "kink" in each corner of the ****pit on the side deck. It either is part of a deck camber transition from the aft deck, to the side deck, to the fore deck. Or it could be part of the weakness these 20+ year old boats exhibit in the ****pit area.
The "kink" isn't visible to the naked eye and it doesn't easily show up with a straight edge, but there's enough of it to cause me to sand through the new gel in all four of the corners. I've already repaired two of them...onward and upward.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37506&d=1217122627

BigGrizzly
07-27-2008, 09:08 AM
Darn George that is nice! Arn't you getting too old to do this in that heat.:wink:

kramsay1234
07-27-2008, 09:23 AM
Very nice. I am actually impressed how much of a reflection you can get after only 800 paper. I have done a bunch of wet sanding and buffing on gel, but never seen pics like this of the process from spraying to each sanding phase. Tells me that on an old boat with dead gel you can easily go down to 1000 without worrying about not being able to bring it back up. Only fear is where the gel gets thin because once you are through, you are through...

I'm sure its going to look like a mirror.

gcarter
09-19-2008, 01:46 PM
I haven't been doing much on the deck lately because it's been so hot. I'm going to add more gel to the aft deck. This has been something of an exercise in patience because of being ill equipped as far as proper equipment. First the air dryer and then the fact that my HVLP gun was insufficient to spray adequate gel onto the surface.
Mike O, who builds Kevlar high performance canoes for a living, sent me one of his gel guns to try. It is designed to spray gel into a mold, so it has strong points and weak points as far as gel repairs go.
If you look at the photos, you'll see the gel goes into a cardboard Dixie cup. Then a cap, complete w/a nozzle and vent seals onto the cup. The gun itself fits over the nozzle and a spring clamp holds the whole assembly together.
The strong points;
It'll spray a lot of gel very quickly.
It's a fairly inexpensive gun.
The weaker points;
The operator has almost no control over the spray process. Here's how it works; if you hold the gun level, gel will run out of the nozzle....it's just a hole going into the cup. So when the operator is ready, he holds the gun pointed up to keep the gel in the cup. Then the trigger is pulled, air starts coming out of the four slots around the nozzle. The air spray atomizes the flow of gel when the gun is held horizontal. There's no fan, and no adjustments. The ideal air pressure is about 80 PSI. I tried 60 PSI and it'll occasionally drip on your work. It'll work on my type of work, but it's challenging. It's better for what Mike is using it for.

gcarter
09-19-2008, 01:55 PM
I went back to Minicraft and asked more question about the guns they use for repairs. They reccomended is a CATechnologies "Jaguar" SST lined gun w/a 2.2 MM nozzle for gel. Minicraft wanted quite a bit for these guns. I checked the internet and it wasn't hard to find the guns for less. I bought one from "Tool Paradise" in California and it came in today. It came as a kit in a case w/a regulator, quart can, four nozzles including the 2.2 MM, other accessories and a case. Some of the strong points for this gun is the SST fluid path so it can be used w/the new water based automotive paints. It also has 12 air ports around the nozzle for even flatter sprayed material.
I'll try it out this weekend. I'm pretty excited.

mrfixxall
09-19-2008, 02:08 PM
George mabe a smaller nozzel will work better..

http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-120-A%20Replacement%20Parts-202.html


or one of thease would be better?
http://www.directindustry.com/industrial-manufacturer/gelcoat-spray-gun-79543.html



Ive had good luck with my sata mc-3 with a 2.0 tip and nozzel

gcarter
09-19-2008, 02:54 PM
George mabe a smaller nozzel will work better..
http://www.fibreglast.com/showproducts-category-120-A%20Replacement%20Parts-202.html
or one of thease would be better?
http://www.directindustry.com/industrial-manufacturer/gelcoat-spray-gun-79543.html
Ive had good luck with my sata mc-3 with a 2.0 tip and nozzel
Mike, I did try a smaller nozzle than what Mike O was using, I tried a #4 and the #5 that he sent it to me with.

tommymonza
09-19-2008, 04:38 PM
Looks sharp George

I just wanted to add a little tip that i used to use .I had a little fiberglass co. years ago building parts for bowling alley scoring systems .Any ways some times i would get into a run of bad parts that would come out of the molds for whatever reason being .I was in a open shop in S.W. Florida with who knew what was being sprayed around the corner from you. Like the Guy who used to own the Golf shop 3 doors down hosing his tires down with Armor All while i was spraying Gel.
Anyways I had many days of having parts come out of molds due for shipment that day for a while that had gel problems.The parts were black to boot.
What i would do is fix the voids and respray the gel with PVA in my mix but when i was done spraying the gel i would put down a layer of PVA over them to speed the cure.Than wash it off do a quick sand and than hit it again with a coat of PVA and than wash and than the gel was hard enough so it would not gum up.I could refinish parts the same day this way.
The boat looks Fab and Gel is the only way to go.

I used to spray my molds with a pressure pot gun but that leaves a lot of clean up ,but for respray you get a much finer finish with it and a cheap gun.It will save you tons of sanding and you can buy chinese made pot systems cheap these days .I also went to the gun that Mike O sent to you for the simplicity of cleanup and when i was doing small runs of parts. They are kinda like trying to paint your house with a texture ceiling gun.

Hope I save you some work.

gcarter
09-20-2008, 07:38 AM
Thanks Tommy.

gcarter
09-24-2008, 03:01 PM
I had a chance yesterday afternoon to spray some gel with the new Jaguar HVLP gun.
If I had this gun to start with, I wouldn't have started this thread. I almost couldn't believe the results I got. After sitting overnight, here're some pics I took. Notice the orangepeel is almost non-existant, and only a very few, very small pinholes. I may be able to start sanding w/320 paper instead of 180 like before. This will save a ton of time and gel.
I'm pretty excited.

cutwater
09-24-2008, 03:48 PM
Wow George that's fantastic. I'm sure once your weather starts cooling down the elbow grease will be a little bit easier!

mike o
09-24-2008, 04:13 PM
is 2..:wink: glad your on your way.......

gcarter
09-24-2008, 04:22 PM
I think w/a little more practice, I'll be able to completely eliminate the orange peel.
I am glad this is a hobby and not what I do all the time.
My hat's off to those folks that do it.

Conquistador_del_mar
09-24-2008, 10:08 PM
I had a chance yesterday afternoon to spray some gel with the new Jaguar HVLP gun.
If I had this gun to start with, I wouldn't have started this thread. I almost couldn't believe the results I got. After sitting overnight, here're some pics I took. Notice the orangepeel is almost non-existant, and only a very few, very small pinholes. I may be able to start sanding w/320 paper instead of 180 like before. This will save a ton of time and gel.
I'm pretty excited.

George,
It is great to hear that you found the right gun. The right equipment is paramount. It looks like you are getting close now. Bill

zelatore
09-24-2008, 10:16 PM
So, now that the spraying is going well any estimates on when you might start re-assembly?



I won't be so bold as to ask when it might actually run again...:kingme:

CHACHI
09-25-2008, 06:03 AM
George, this is great news. I hope to have a ride in the TR this March, say bike week? Not too soon is it?

Ken

gcarter
09-25-2008, 10:10 AM
George, this is great news. I hope to have a ride in the TR this March, say bike week? Not too soon is it?

Ken
We'll see how the money is...things have been thin lately.

cutwater
09-26-2008, 09:52 AM
George, you might have addressed this somewhere deep in this thread... but I remember a few years ago when I was asking about gel that some people had mentioned various ways to "seal" the gel to prevent oxidation (e.g., clearcoat). Do you have any plans to do this, or do you plan to just keep the boat shielded from the elements?

gcarter
09-26-2008, 10:23 AM
George, you might have addressed this somewhere deep in this thread... but I remember a few years ago when I was asking about gel that some people had mentioned various ways to "seal" the gel to prevent oxidation (e.g., clearcoat). Do you have any plans to do this, or do you plan to just keep the boat shielded from the elements?
I spoke w/Minicraft about sealing the gel...and also my automotive paint supplier.
Not much luck.
Automotive clear coats don't work well unless they're applied over the base coat they are designed for.
Clear gels will yellow with age.
That's not to say there isn't another route to product lines not explored, like high end clears designed to stand alone.
Just because I don't know of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
My philosophy was just to buy the best, most durable gel product I could find.
Maybe there's a better way.

Tidbart
09-26-2008, 10:24 AM
303 Protectant. Cheap and easy.

B

gcarter
09-26-2008, 10:25 AM
303 Protectant. Cheap and easy.

B
Pardon my ignorance, but what is that?

Tidbart
09-26-2008, 10:48 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is that?

It is sunblock for just about anything. I use it on the boat, tires, seats, Truck vinyl, dash, sidwall, any black plastic.

Just spray on and wipe off. Keeps the UV damage to a minimum. Lasts for a couple of months.

Put it on after your wash and polish/wax.

http://www.303products.com/tech/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=428

zelatore
09-26-2008, 11:26 AM
I've used 303 on plenty of things, but never gel. It just didn't seem 'right' to use on that sort of surface.

Never thought about it before really.

VetteLT193
09-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Zaino has UV blockage in it as well. Never tried it on Gel though. I just made the switch from Zymol this year for the cars... if I ever get my boat back I'll give Zaino a try on it too.

mike o
09-26-2008, 02:20 PM
It is sunblock for just about anything. I use it on the boat, tires, seats, Truck vinyl, dash, sidwall, any black plastic.

Just spray on and wipe off. Keeps the UV damage to a minimum. Lasts for a couple of months.

Put it on after your wash and polish/wax.

http://www.303products.com/tech/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=428... I tell everybody that buys my boats to use 303. Its be around quite awhile. Its sold in all the little and big boat shops now, west marine, ect. It makes the boat look wet all the time. The down side of the stuff... is that 303 is really slippery on the decks - hatches.

gcarter
10-09-2008, 10:17 AM
So, here's a picture of the aft deck after having sanded it.
Trueser told me his glass guy sands his gel to 3000 paper before before buffing.
I normally would have sanded to 1500 and then compounded, so I bought some 2000 and 2500 paper and kept sanding. The difference is absolutely remarkable. After sanding w/the 2500 paper there were virtually no sand marks left.
After finishing w/the paper, just on a hunch, I used a foam pad and polished with some 3M glaze. It came out pretty darn good. I think I bypassed some really nasty compounding.
Take a look;


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39437&d=1223565448

Trueser
10-09-2008, 10:50 AM
Looks great George.

I'm glad I could help.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-09-2008, 10:56 AM
So, here's a picture of the aft deck after having sanded it.
Trueser told me his glass guy sands his gel to 3000 paper before before buffing.
I normally would have sanded to 1500 and then compounded, so I bought some 2000 and 2500 paper and kept sanding. The difference is absolutely remarkable. After sanding w/the 2500 paper there were virtually no sand marks left.
After finishing w/the paper, just on a hunch, I used a foam pad and polished with some 3M glaze. It came out pretty darn good. I think I bypassed some really nasty compounding.
Take a look;


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39437&d=1223565448

George, that looks great! Good to talk to you yesterday even though your trip was cancelled. Back to the subject of protecting that gelcoat. I would think that you would want to use some of the products mentioned to keep the originality of the gelcoat surface. If you ever reach a point that you are not pleased with the way the gelcoat is holding up, you could always clear coat it with Imron 500S clear or any other similar product. Back when I was doing glass work, I had to clear coat quite a few bass boats with the metal flake since the clear gelcoats would give it up. If the customer got the boat to me before it was entirely through the clear gelcoat, it could be saved and made to look like new, but if it was already through the gelcoat and the flakes were exposed then the wet sanding prep work would takes off the color on the exposed anodized flakes - leaving the underlying silver. It would still look good since much of the original metal flake color was still there and it would now have a protective gloss clear surface. I mention this since clear coating is always an option. It holds up great with no color change from the UV or loss of gloss from weathering - tough stuff! I remember the day when Imron 500S cost me around $50/gallon and the 192S activator was around $35/qt. Just yesterday, I bought a gallon of Imron 555 bright white and a quart of 192S for $300. I digress, but my point was that you could always protect that wonderful red gelcoat in the future if you so decide. Bill

gcarter
10-09-2008, 11:13 AM
George, that looks great! Good to talk to you yesterday even though your trip was cancelled. Back to the subject of protecting that gelcoat. I would think that you would want to use some of the products mentioned to keep the originality of the gelcoat surface. If you ever reach a point that you are not pleased with the way the gelcoat is holding up, you could always clear coat it with Imron 500S clear or any other similar product. Back when I was doing glass work, I had to clear coat quite a few bass boats with the metal flake since the clear gelcoats would give it up. If the customer got the boat to me before it was entirely through the clear gelcoat, it could be saved and made to look like new, but if it was already through the gelcoat and the flakes were exposed then the wet sanding prep work would takes off the color on the exposed anodized flakes - leaving the underlying silver. It would still look good since much of the original metal flake color was still there and it would now have a protective gloss clear surface. I mention this since clear coating is always an option. It holds up great with no color change from the UV or loss of gloss from weathering - tough stuff! I remember the day when Imron 500S cost me around $50/gallon and the 192S activator was around $35/qt. Just yesterday, I bought a gallon of Imron 555 bright white and a quart of 192S for $300. I digress, but my point was that you could always protect that wonderful red gelcoat in the future if you so decide. Bill
That may be a good idea. I have time to think about it because it'll be awhile before the deck will go back on the hull.

MOP
10-09-2008, 11:53 AM
George you did say it was getting SMOOTH it sure is the picture does your words justice!

bobwpe
10-09-2008, 06:41 PM
Looks really great George. That's some serious dedication!

BigGrizzly
10-10-2008, 08:43 AM
George it is really looking good. I will be coming your way for the boat show around Feb 9, for our annual combined belated birthday lunch. And we can discuss gel coats and closed cooling systems. Btw when I painted the Corsican with the Interlux 800, My son's friend got me supplies and it turned out to be the 2000, 2500 paper and the foam pad and 3m glaze too. Problem number one was I waxed it a month after then stood up on the deck with topsiders and slipped off the deck. I didn't put wax on it again 5 years later I used leverage, and dumb me did the same thing again. The stuff is really slick. So now I only use leverage, on everything painted or gel coated. I need to remember C Delmars suggestion on clear Immeron.

gcarter
10-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Since I keep this boat inside, I'll probably only polish the deck and not wax it.
I don't like it being slippery either.

gcarter
11-30-2008, 01:30 PM
I've been working steadily but slowly since my last post. I re-gelled the cockpit w/the new gun and carefully sanded it to 2000 paper. I also polished most of the cockpit w/some 3M glaze on a foam pad.
Most of the deck has not been polished at all but sanded with 2500 paper.
I finished up a few things today and moved it outside for a bath. It's amazing how dirty it can get just sitting around. Next week I'm going to cover it up, put it away and start working on the hull.

Trueser
11-30-2008, 02:41 PM
Looks great George,

When they were working on Mark's Transom they were using something else other than 3M. I will get you the name of the stuff. They also were switching pads back and forth.

When do you think you will finish it up?

I owe you some emails...

gcarter
11-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Looks great George,

When they were working on Mark's Transom they were using something else other than 3M. I will get you the name of the stuff. They also were switching pads back and forth.

When do you think you will finish it up?

I owe you some emails...

Thanks Mike.
Things will have to get better before I'll be able to answer that.
There's a number of things I can do to the hull before I start gelling it.
I'll probably flip it this next week.

Air 22
11-30-2008, 02:59 PM
Wow..that looks just awsome...nice job George!:wink: Cant wait to c it complete.:yes: I wish I had a shop like that:cool::kingme:

CHACHI
11-30-2008, 03:49 PM
Mr. Carter,..........................Nice.

I can't wait to see up close and personal.

Ken

Conquistador_del_mar
12-01-2008, 12:22 AM
I've been working steadily but slowly since my last post. I re-gelled the cockpit w/the new gun and carefully sanded it to 2000 paper. I also polished most of the cockpit w/some 3M glaze on a foam pad.
Most of the deck has not been polished at all but sanded wsith 2500 paper.
I finished up a few things today and moved it outside for a bath. It's amazing how dirty it can get just sitting around. Next week I'm going to cover it up, put it away and start working on the hull.

George,
It looks great. What type buffer do you use? Do you use the double sided 3M buffer pads with your buffer? Have you tried the 3M swirl remover compund? I know, so many questions. I look forward to seeing your progress on the hull. Bill

gcarter
12-01-2008, 06:17 AM
George,
It looks great. What type buffer do you use? Do you use the double sided 3M buffer pads with your buffer? Have you tried the 3M swirl remover compund? I know, so many questions. I look forward to seeing your progress on the hull. Bill
Bill, I use the single side w/velcro backing. I take it off about every five minutes and wash it out.
There're so many glazes available from 3M it's overwhelming. I know they probably play a bigger part on paint than gel. I don't spend a lot on buffers. I have two and don't remember brands. Like a lot of my tools, they don't get used much. I use them till they wear out and throw them away. So if they last only five years instead of ten, that's OK.
I won't do any more to the deck until I'm ready to start rigging it. It's hard to keep from getting small scratches on it. So before that process starts, I'll wet sand it again w/3000 paper and polish it.
Bill, I do need the brand name of your air file. My IR sucks. Before I start doing some serious flattening on the hull bottom, I want a better one.

txtaz
12-01-2008, 06:42 AM
Looking good George. I'll check it out next week.

Da Taz<---Florida here we come.

mike o
12-01-2008, 06:47 AM
Very nice Mr. C. It actually takes around 30 days for resins and gelcoats to totally finish cross linking to a completely hardened final cure.:wink:

Conquistador_del_mar
12-01-2008, 10:46 AM
Bill, I use the single side w/velcro backing. I take it off about every five minutes and wash it out.
There're so many glazes available from 3M it's overwhelming. I know they probably play a bigger part on paint than gel. I don't spend a lot on buffers. I have two and don't remember brands. Like a lot of my tools, they don't get used much. I use them till they wear out and throw them away. So if they last only five years instead of ten, that's OK.
I won't do any more to the deck until I'm ready to start rigging it. It's hard to keep from getting small scratches on it. So before that process starts, I'll wet sand it again w/3000 paper and polish it.
Bill, I do need the brand name of your air file. My IR sucks. Before I start doing some serious flattening on the hull bottom, I want a better one.

My Hutchins straight line sander (air file) has worked flawlessly for me over the years. If you can justify the cost, the SnapON variable speed buffer will do many jobs before needing a rebuild. They are actually the Black and Decker Professional line buffer. I think they run about $275 now and the rebuild has never run over $130, but that is after quite a few hundred hours of heavy use. Bill

BigGrizzly
12-01-2008, 11:48 AM
George remember we are having our annual lunch on Monday Feb 2009. So get cracking.

gcarter
12-01-2008, 06:37 PM
My Hutchins straight line sander (air file) has worked flawlessly for me over the years. If you can justify the cost, the SnapON variable speed buffer will do many jobs before needing a rebuild. They are actually the Black and Decker Professional line buffer. I think they run about $275 now and the rebuild has never run over $130, but that is after quite a few hundred hours of heavy use. Bill
I don't think I've spent over $70.00 for a variable speed buffer. Like I said, if it lasts five years, I'll be happy.
I just don't do that many jobs like this.

mike o
12-01-2008, 09:05 PM
George,
It looks great. What type buffer do you use? Do you use the double sided 3M buffer pads with your buffer? Have you tried the 3M swirl remover compund? I know, so many questions. I look forward to seeing your progress on the hull. Bill.... 2000 grit, 3m #5973 machine glaze on my molds + plugs, then finess-it II. Is what I do on the toolings

Lenny
12-02-2008, 08:29 AM
.... 3m #5973 machine glaze on my molds + plugs, then finess-it II. Is what I do on the toolings

...same here... :)

gcarter
12-02-2008, 08:36 AM
So is that what you guys would reccomend for an external repair, like this deck and hull?

Lenny
12-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Bill, I do need the brand name of your air file. My IR sucks. Before I start doing some serious flattening on the hull bottom, I want a better one.

Mine is a Hutchins as well George.

http://www.goldcoastmarine.com/files/Hutchins%20Catalog.pdf

Conquistador_del_mar
12-02-2008, 11:24 AM
.... 2000 grit, 3m #5973 machine glaze on my molds + plugs, then finess-it II. Is what I do on the toolings

Mike,
Have you tried the Perfect-It 3000 Swirl Mark Remover #6064? I have switched to it for my final finish compounding work on cars and boats, followed by a machine glaze on my cars. The name itself says what it does - great stuff! Bill

mike o
12-02-2008, 12:35 PM
Mike,
Have you tried the Perfect-It 3000 Swirl Mark Remover #6064? I have switched to it for my final finish compounding work on cars and boats, followed by a machine glaze on my cars. The name itself says what it does - great stuff! Bill..... I have (i think), they (3m) have so many different #'s. I have found that the shine gets to a point of over kill for my stuff. One tiny -tiny scratch shows up way too much say in a dealers show room for example. That hull wasnt buffed, thats how it came from a 23yr old mold with hunderds of pulls. I always look at the quality of boats by the reflection off the hull, not the shine. If you can get your tooling perfectly mirror flat. They will always look better to the eye. I have to do everything by hand... cause the buffer wont fit in the ends.:frown:. George I have never wet sanded out to 3000. I think the 3m stuff will get ya where ya want to go after the gel gets hot in the sun and gasses off to become has hard as it gonna get... Thats when Id try the 5973... Aqua - buff is popular for the final finish also.

gcarter
12-02-2008, 01:53 PM
I just bought a used Hutchins sander on eBay. $100.00 including shipping. I'm sure the seller wanted a lot more but I was the only one that bid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=370119866318

Tidbart
12-02-2008, 02:02 PM
You can probably get $100 for it when you are done with it.:yes:

Net Zero!

I did that when I was building my garage. I bought tools, used them and then sold them as I had no more use for some of them. Was cheaper than renting them in the long run, and they were availble when I need them.

Keep on chugging George.

Bob

zelatore
12-02-2008, 04:48 PM
You can probably get $100 for it when you are done with it.:yes:

Net Zero!

I did that when I was building my garage. I bought tools, used them and then sold them as I had no more use for some of them. Was cheaper than renting them in the long run, and they were availble when I need them.

Keep on chugging George.

Bob

You SOLD tools??? I thought it was every red-blooded American man's obligation to try to accumulate as many tools as possible, whether he'll use them or not!

Tidbart
12-03-2008, 06:18 AM
You SOLD tools??? I thought it was every red-blooded American man's obligation to try to accumulate as many tools as possible, whether he'll use them or not!

Believe me, I have plenty. I only sold the ones I had duplicates of. :wink:

B