Pics of the Snake at 4000 cfs....

[Donziweasel]

The Snake jumped another 1000 cfs last night. Here are a few pics of the Snake. The first one, although in the sun, is a 1/2 rapid called "Cottonwood". It will have 15-20 ft walls of water above 25,000 cfs. The other two are various areas of the river. I did not get "lunch counter" as it is a 1/2 mile hike to it and it was cold this morning. Will try and get it later.

[Donziweasel]

Buiz, here is a couple of pics of the old gauging station cart and cables accross the Snake.

[The Hedgehog]

It looks so peaseful. At least for now!:eek!:

[Donziweasel]

I do all the transportation for one of the 7 whitewater companies in town. I spoke to them today and flat out told them I would not haul one person to the river at levels over 30,000 cfs. They were ok with it as they said they had already decided to suspend operations at 30,000 for safety and physical screening over 26,000.

I spoke to two other companies I am freinds with and asked them what they are doing for the "Big One". Both are going to run it. They said they are trying to have the Lincoln County Search and Rescue Jet Boat on station at the take out throughout high water and they are going to run kayaker saftety boaters with the rafts.

I told them they are ****ing crazy and are going to kill people. The jet boat at the take out is worthless. The last rapid before the takeout will be 5 waves over 17 ft. The jet will not be able to navigate up the river. It will only be good for scooping the dead bodies out of the river. I also told them the kayakers are going to be in as much danger as the rafts.

There are really no guides around that have big water experience. Since 1999, the Snake has only peaked once over 20,000 and it was only 21,000. There are only 3 active guides that were here 1997 out of over 100. Then there are a few retired ones like me, who know big water. I already got a call from another company wanting me to guide for them when the river gets to 25,000. Damn thing scares the hell out of me over 30,000 and I am not willing to take paying clients down at that level. I spoke to another "retired" guide who had run big water and he said the same thing-NO WAY IN HELL!

All this and not to mention, anyone with a raft can run the Snake. No experience, nothing. Your not even required to wear life jackets. Just show up at the put in and go. These are the people who are going to die more than anyone else. The most people to die on one year on the Snake was 1996. 5 people died and 4 were private boaters.

I know I am beating this runoff thing, but it is really bothering me. I was a guide on the Snake with over 600 trips in 2 years in 1995 and 1996. I love rivers, boating, and whitewater. Just knowing people will die on a river I love, and there is nothing I can do about it, is really bumming me out. Why the **** won't people listen to someone who has more experience running big and technical whitewater than anyone else around?

Hedgehog, yes the Snake is very beautiful and peaceful right now. Another hot day here and I expect the Snake will jump 2000-3000 cfs today. The beast is hungry and ready to rip.

[The Hedgehog]

Big water is some serious stuff. Big flood water is a whole different ball game. William Nealey described it best as being on a freight train going down hill with no brakes. Unfortunately you are right and people will probably drown. Otherwise normal wave/holes turn into explosion waves, eddy lines turn into funny water with whirlpools that can pull you under. Some eddy lines become what we call eddy fences. If you flip a raft on one of those big explosion waves people can't simply swim out of the river. Flush drowing becomes likely. Guides need to be skilled in flipping rafts in big water and self rescue.

Class IV whitewater is big and bad. Class V ups the ante. Class V+ should be left to skilled professionals. And that means everyone on the raft. Unless you have done a bunch of IV and V stuff, you won't even know how to recognize the risk. Your Snake at huge levels will have some class V+ stuff. You and I know it. I hope that others heed your warning.

I think that many guides are to blame for rapid rating issues. At least on this side of the country. Lot's of talk of the Big five class V's on the Gauley. Heck some call them VI's. They even have a rafting company called Class VI. While the water is huge on the big G, only two real Class V's exist on that river. That would be Lost Paddle and Iron Ring. Folks get off the river thinking that they have some serious class V experience when all they have done is see the tip of the iceberg. This does not mean that I am down playing the Gauley. It is chock full of holes and undercut rocks. It kills on a regular basis. My point is that when it comes down to class V+ a whole new world opens up and so does the risk.

We used to joke about the whole expert thing. I thought I was a class V boater. I felt pretty important. Then I got on a serious class V run one day down in Bama and got my ass handed to me. My expert card got revoked. Three of us almost drowned that day. We would not hardly even talk about it for months. It was not until I became an honest class V boater that I really learned how serious that stuff can be. That took more than a few times down the river.

[Donziweasel]

I know what you mean. I thought I was a hot **** invincible guide until 1998. I ran Hell's Canyon and flipped a fully loaded boat on day 2 of a 7 day trip. Almost killed a freind and his girl friend, not to mention me. I got so worked, when I finally got a throw rope and dragged to shore, all I could do is lay there for 30 minutes gagging and I was so exhuasted, I couldn't even row the rest of the day. I changed my status from "expert" to "experienced" after that. They say there are two types of guides, those that will flip a boat and those that have.

The Snake is a mild class III below 20,000. It will run some Class V over 30,000. I guess that is what irks me. All these inexperienced guides who have guided maybe 2 years and never over 14,000 on the Snake are excited. The average age of a guide in JH is maybe 21-22 years old. They just do not realize how dangerous it is going to be.

Then the private boaters with there K-Mart special boats and the orange around the neck life jackets that actaully have a string that you tie around the waist. Dead meat.

Oh well, I am over it. Can't change it, not excited, but it is not my problem. I have drawn my line for the company and that is all I can do. What I choose to run with just me or friends is a different matter. I am as experienced (if you noticed, I didn't say "expert" after Hells Canyon) guide you will find and know my limitations. Anyway, one year you will have to come out. I know a bunch of creeks and rivers that are not run commercially with anything from II to VI (thats right, class VI if you want it, but you would probably end up in the hospital at the least).

[The Hedgehog]

I am definitely up for some big western whitewater. I will run some class V. I doubt I would run anything much harder than class IV in my kayak though.

I used to marvel at the upper fringes of whitewater. Once you get beyond class V a bunch of it becomes a crap shoot. We have a class VI on the Chattooga called Woodall. You can run it a couple of ways. You could take the class III line, hit the slide and hope that you hit the corner of the hole on the river right. Maybe you will get lucky. Or you could grab the eddy at the top of the drop, ferry out about the top of the drop then spin around, hit the slide punch the corner of the hole. The latter was best since it gave you momentum to the river right. It was the proper way to run it and was maybe a class IV move. That was my preferred route. The class VI factor was that if you screwed up you would get stuck on one of the worst holes in the South. The hole is a terminal hydraulic and has killed many times. Most stay away and run a class II-III sneak slide on the far right. I used to get a kick out of horrifying folks by running the "Hairy Ferry" and popping the corner of the class VI hole.

Although we made faces at the camera and liked to horrify people, we always had a safety line ready.

I quit running that drop. I quit for two reasons. The first being was I talked to enough good boaters that missed their line and got surfed badly. The second and primary reason was when I saw a friend of mine that was a class II+ boater do it. We told him to stay away, he knew good and well what could happen if he messed up but he did it anyway. He got very lucky. I think that it was primarily driven by the way he saw us take it lightly.

From then on, the only class V+ stuff I ran was the real stuff. It was not for show and only with a select few that knew what it was. I also only ran it if I was having a good day. If I goofed a line on some of the IV stuff, I would not think about running it.

These days I am finding myself walking some Class IV. I would like to get good enough to get back on the class V stuff (in a kayak) but really only want to run the IV's.

Now on the raft on the other hand...... I might do some moderate big water V. That sounds pretty fun. The class VI, no dice!

[Donziweasel]

The VI stuff is smaller rivers with HUGE drops. I know of one on the Fall river and one on the Teton, same river that the damn broke on in the 70's. Not much in the way of technical, just big drops that are almost water falls. I won't do more than III in a kayak, simply because I am not that good yet. In a raft, bring on the V! Doesn't mean big V's don't scare the hell out of me though. Still not sure if I will run the Snake over 30,000 this year. It is still a hell of a IV river from 20,000-30,000.

Most V stuff out here is smaller rivers that are off the beaten path. No crowds watching, no one on the shore cheering. Just you, the river, the rapid and maybe a deer, elk or moose. Fun as hell, but some is technical as hell. Just have to remember, help can be a long way away.

[The Hedgehog]

Here are some big water pics. The big hole on the left is on the New. This is probably somewhere above 30,000 as it is made by a feature called Whale Rock. This hole is probably over 15 feet deep and would cause a massive raft flip.

The others are some new river carnage. The guy in the kayak is in a fun play hole. I got in there once but the hole worked me more than I did it. Our group had no takers after seeing my spanking.

The guy on the surf board is on the Snake.

[Cuda]

I floated down the New River in West Virginia a few years ago. I don't remember what class it was, and it was an exhillarating run, but the main thing I was worried about was foot entrapment. If you get your foot hung up in some bolders, you are through. We came out under what then was the tallest bridge in the world (might still be). The New River they claim is the oldest river in North America. I pointed out that fact, to the bus driver that ran us down to the river. There were buses running up and down that gorge, at breakneck speed, with nothing but mountain on one side, and the other side had so deep of a drop, you'd starve to death, before you hit bottom. Anyway, I could smell the brakes overheating on this forty year old school bus, when I stood up and yelled at the bus driver, "IT'S THE OLDEST DAMN RIVER IN NORTH AMERICA, AND I'M SURE IT WILL STILL BE THERE WHEN WE GET THERE! SLOW THIS BITCH DOWN!" I think I heard a couple here, here's after my exclamation.

There's another river that runs into the New River, I think it was called the Ogallee, or something like that, that they open the gates to once or twice a year, which is supposed to be one of the most dangerous places to run in the world. I'm pretty sure you have to be certified or something, to even make that run.

[The Hedgehog]

I floated down the New River in West Virginia a few years ago. I don't remember what class it was, and it was an exhillarating run, but the main thing I was worried about was foot entrapment. If you get your foot hung up in some bolders, you are through. We came out under what then was the tallest bridge in the world (might still be). The New River they claim is the oldest river in North America. I pointed out that fact, to the bus driver that ran us down to the river. There were buses running up and down that gorge, at breakneck speed, with nothing but mountain on one side, and the other side had so deep of a drop, you'd starve to death, before you hit bottom. Anyway, I could smell the brakes overheating on this forty year old school bus, when I stood up and yelled at the bus driver, "IT'S THE OLDEST DAMN RIVER IN NORTH AMERICA, AND I'M SURE IT WILL STILL BE THERE WHEN WE GET THERE! SLOW THIS BITCH DOWN!" I think I heard a couple here, here's after my exclamation.
There's another river that runs into the New River, I think it was called the Ogallee, or something like that, that they open the gates to once or twice a year, which is supposed to be one of the most dangerous places to run in the world. I'm pretty sure you have to be certified or something, to even make that run.

The Ogallee (Gauley) is the run I was talking about above. It runs a good bit but commercial rafting season is in the fall during the lake draw down. Lots of guides from west come out to work that season. At one time it was the defining expert run (that word I can't stand). I have run it many times in my kayak. I believe that Last Real Texan has done it too. It is big fun

It is a pretty dangerous run. It has lots of big holes, undercut rocks and seives. It has some HUGE class IV's and two real big class V's. It is not near as bad as a few runs up the road like the Meadow. The Meadow has drops like Hell's Gate, Brink of Disaster, Coming Home Sweet Jesus, Seive City and Double Undercut. I was pondering this run one day but the fresh flowers after a drowning at Hell's Gate made me feel that the river gods dissapproved. It is not commercially rafted.

The best commercial rafting run on the east coast is the Russell Fork on the Va-Ky border. It is big, bad and steep. It has huge drops and big undercut rocks. I ran it at a low level in my kayak once and was impressed. The last mile of so is continuous class IV-V whitewater. I am almost surprised that they raft it.

I may take my raft up to Gauley season this year.

[Donziweasel]

Joe, Boo Boo told me to tell you hi.

A few of our more experienced guides head back for the New and Gauley in the fall when our season is over. Getting a job on those rivers is hard as guides have to meet certain criterea, like experience and training. Both rivers can be dangerous.

Snake is slowly waking up- 5000 this morning. I did a little research and in 97 at this time the Snake was running almost 9000. I have never seen ice on the lakes this late in the season and we just aren't losing much snow at all. I am getting more and more nervous as the more it holds out, the bigger it will go. Might see 45,000 now and flooding is becoming a serious concern. The upper river is clear as a bell and the off color in the pics of the Snake is due to one tributarys called the Hoback River.

Hedgehog, see if you agree with this. Rivers have moods and almost act like they are alive. A river on the up when it hits 20,000 is a totally different river than the same 20,000 on the downside of high water. I have also seen rivers act differently at the same levels on different years. Sometimes they are angry and dangerous as hell at a certain level one year, and the next it has a different mood. Might be happy and safe. Maybe it is more of a western deal as our rivers are not tailwaters (rivers below damns) and have natural runoff, but regardless, they all have "moods". Might have to do with temps, silt, etc...

Big problem this year will be trees. 100 ft trees will be heading down river. I have had to eddie out many times to wait for a 100 ft logpole pine to clear a rapid. Since the Snake has not had a good "flushing" in 10 years, many many trees will be floating down river. One of the most dangerous things about whitewater is the dreaded log jam. They kill a lot of people. Come around a bend, river is blocked, hit log jam, flip boat, people stuffed under log jam. Bad scenario.

If the runoff does not begin in the next week, we could be in serious trouble. The longer it holds out, the bigger it will go. If it doesn't start for another week, and then gets hot fast, 50,000 is not unreachable. All the mountains are at 120% of snow and holding. It is getting pretty out here. Mountains are really white and the valleys are getting green.

BTW, the Snake peaked at 9000 cfs last year. What a difference a year makes!

[BUIZILLA]

DW, I was looking at those pic's yesterday thinking with all that low tree line, the 8 to 15' sibling tree's, and the river going over the 25-30 level, there's going to be a massive root erosion and log flow, especially in the sharp radii turns, every turn will have a log jam in the eddie's... you get a jam in front of a rock wall fall downstream and it could be devastating backup's... could be unprecedented.... i'm thinking the local Fire Rescue Captain needs to pay a visit to these outfitters, or call a town hall meeting with these concerns, even if it's televised.... I predict a Memorial Day to Father's Day weekend peak... I think your concern's are VERY valid.

[Donziweasel]

Thanks Buiz, makes me feel like I am not being overly cautious. Log jams are the MOST dangerous part of running whitewater. They kill more people than any rapid out here. Even on scenic non-whitewater sections, people die every year becuase of them.

I spoke with the forest service yesterday and they are not putting any limits or restrictions on the Snake this year. Their position is that many activities in the forest are inherently dangerous and it is up to individuals to make that call. He used Mt Ranier and Mckinley as an example. People die every year climbing these moutains but sun, rain or snow, people still climb them. He said the Forest is public land and weather conditions do not call for regulation. He also said he knew this was not the best policy, but his hands were tied.

You are absolutly right, there are some really bad spots for log jams, especially an area called the "S Turns". Two tight turns. In 1997, I dodged trees every 30 seconds on the Snake. They were everywhere and over 100ft long. Even without a jam, they still pose a huge risk. Hitting one at over 25 mph can really ruin your day.

[The Hedgehog]

You are so right about the river personality thing. That is what makes boating fun. There is alot more to it than memorizing lines on a river. Makes boaters need to be able to read water. Heck even on rivers like the Ocoee that are dam controlled we see differences. Comments like "that hole was sticky today" are true.

Rising rivers have a surge or pulse like feeling to them. Almost like the river gods are angry. In the adrenline days I loved it. Seeing brown water surge was an evil feeling. That coupled with the ever increasing debris in the river is a creepy scene. That can be dangerous in tight creeks though. I look for the high water line and then put on. That does not guarantee it won't flash on you due to rain upstream but it helps.

Now I like the steady to slightly falling. The pulse goes away and the rapids get more steady and predictable. Almost relaxing. You still need to watch for new wood though.

Buizilla is right. You need to get the rescue guys ready. Wood will be a bad factor. New stuff will get flushed down. I hope that too many novices won't try to prove themselves on the big water.

[BUIZILLA]

I have done some east coast whitewater raft trips, nothing over IV stuff though.... lot's of III's and IV's mixed... I remember hiking out of the woods down by Toccoa when a surge hit us halfway down the trip from night before rains... water at the 76 bridge start was up about 2' from night before and within 1 hour it was another 3' on top of that, one boat flipped and a good friend of mine almost drowned through a corkscrew, and we had to rope him out across the river... I think we had to walk a few MILES up a path to get back to the bus, I can assure you, to this day, i've never forgotten one minute of that trip... later that same day, or that night, was the big run that wiped out the Toccoa college dorm's downstream, and killed some kids.. we were at a campground in Clayton, and coming back down 441 the next morning was massive mayhem..

[The Hedgehog]

I have done some east coast whitewater raft trips, nothing over IV stuff though.... lot's of III's and IV's mixed... I remember hiking out of the woods down by Toccoa when a surge hit us halfway down the trip from night before rains... water at the 76 bridge start was up about 2' from night before and within 1 hour it was another 3' on top of that, one boat flipped and a good friend of mine almost drowned through a corkscrew, and we had to rope him out across the river... I think we had to walk a few MILES up a path to get back to the bus, I can assure you, to this day, i've never forgotten one minute of that trip... later that same day, or that night, was the big run that wiped out the Toccoa college dorm's downstream, and killed some kids.. we were at a campground in Clayton, and coming back down 441 the next morning was massive mayhem..

That would be Section IV of the Chattooga. One of my favs.

They now use 2.5 feet at 76 as a cutoff. You probably walked out at the Sodomy Creek trail near where Ned Beatty had some problems during the movie Deliverance. :shocking:

Corkscrew is a hard rapid to run well. The worst part is its proximity to Crack-in-the rock. Left Crack kills someone every coupld of years or so.

Sock-em-Dog starts to be a nice class V at 2.2.

The highest I ran that section was around 3 feet. Five falls was huge. It is hard to say how high it really was at five falls since Stekoa Creek was dumping in some big water. The group behind us had multiple swimmers. I ferried a guys kayak across Deadman's pool that day. He was too freaked out to even thank me.

Section IV does not get run as much at high water these days. Lot's of boaters go to Overflow Creek and the upper tribs with creek boats when it gets high.

Where is Tex when you need him. He has probably done Section IV a few times.

[Donziweasel]

Tailwaters can be wierd. On Hell's Canyon, they run the damn during the day for power, at night shut it off. Go to sleep and the boat is happily tied up floating in the water. Wake up and it is on dry ground 30 ft from the river, happened every night. Then you have to pull a 1000 pound boat to the river. Thank the lord for coffee.

[The Hedgehog]

Tailwaters can be wierd. On Hell's Canyon, they run the damn during the day for power, at night shut it off. Go to sleep and the boat is happily tied up floating in the water. Wake up and it is on dry ground 30 ft from the river, happened every night. Then you have to pull a 1000 pound boat to the river. Thank the lord for coffee.

A 1,000 lb raft. That is HUGE:eek!:

Mine weighs about 150 lbs.

[Donziweasel]

18 ft, loaded with coolers, supplies, dryboxes, drybags, etc... Maybe not 1000, but takes 8 people to ferry to the water, and it is a struggle.

My personal boats are both Aire's. One Super Puma and a 14.5 ft D series. Frames are DRE's and oars are Catarct Shafts with Magnum blades. Love both of them.

[Donziweasel]

Cold, rain and snow today through the weekend. Not good. Will slow runoff and accumulate more snow. Snake made it to 6000cfs yesterday, but will probably drop to 3000 by the weekend. Man, it is going to be HUGE when it goes. Worse spring weather I have ever seen out here.