Hedgehog, the runnoff begineth.....

[Donziweasel]

Snake started showing some life yesterday. Jumped from 1500 cfs to 3200. Also off colored. Bets are starting to fly of what the peak will be and when. I put $40.00 on 40,500cfs on June 17.

[Cuda]

For those of us, who live in Florida, where the land is flat, and the lakes don't freeze, can you translate that for us? :)

[The Hedgehog]

Basically up in the big mountains out west whitewater is driven by snow melt. They have a season that starts around now and runs into the summer. Their rivers and creeks go from a trickle to a rage as this happens. More snow melt equals big water. This is a year of epic snow melt and new records may be set. The Snake river is climbing fast and is now running at a rate of 3,200 cfs or cubic feet per second (that is about 30,000 gallons a second)!:eek!: The water they will be getting this year will be huge. It will probably have waves the size of houses and hydraulics that can swallow up 18 wheelers.

I am up heading to hand paddle the Ocoee today in my kayak. It is a nice whitewater river in Tn where they hosted the Olympics. Out east out rivers are driven mostly by rain water or dam release. We also get a little snow melt in parts of Appalachia.

For a reference I have posted a few pics of the Ocoee taken from my raft. It typically runs around 1,300 cfs. This is a nice class III run. I have some friends that ran it at flood around 18,000 cfs and said it was some huge class V whitewater.

Our season starts in the Fall when the leaves drop and peaks in Feb-March. The rest of the year it is either dam controlled or storm driven. The good news is that it runs year around here.

The biggest stuff I have ever run was in West Va. when the New River was running 20,000 cfs. That is around 150,000 gallons per second. It had exploding waves that were 14 feet tall and massive whirlpools. My kayak got tossed around like a hacky sac. If you came out of your kayak you would probably not get to shore for a few miles if you did not flush drown. It was a nice class V mess. I know some that have done a portion of the New at 60,000 cfs. They said it was unbelievable.

In my day I would have probably thought it was a good idea to kayak 40,000 cfs. Now I would just like to see it or maybe raft it. It will be huge!!!:shocking:

[The Hedgehog]

Oh yea, the pic on the left was taken at Rock Island. It is about 20 min from my house. That was around 10,000 cfs. At a little lower levels those falls are a blast in a kayak.

[The Hedgehog]

Here is the Caney Fork with 15,000 cfs. This is huge. On Center Hill lake you can drive your boat up to approx one mile from this nice section of whitewater.

The 80 foot water fall is about 45 minutes from the house. It has recently been run in a kayak.

[BUIZILLA]

I have ridden my SeaDoo up to and under that second pic above more times than I can count, in fact one time the water flow was so hard it flipped me over.... :doh: gotta watch out for the snakes in the whirlpool area too..

[Donziweasel]

Good explanation Hedgehog. On top of that, each river has it's own personality. The Snake is what we call a "straight shooter". When you run it, you simply line the boat up before the rapid, get your speed up, and hit it. Other that keeping the boat straight (getting a boat sideways in a rapid is really really bad), you have very little input throughout the rapid.

The other type is technical whitewater. Here you actually have to move the boat in the rapid. Technical is usually not as big, but takes more skill, and kayakers typically like this type of water more than huge staright foward rapids. Of course, there are many in between or with both types of rapids.

The Snake is a docile Class III at 14,000 cfs. It is a bone crushing IV at 24,000. Above 30,000, it is a terrifying class V (on a I-VI scale) with 15-20 ft breakers, rollers, standing walls, suck holes, whirlpools and strong hydrualics of water that surge unpredicatably. It is a bonefide monster.

With our record snow this year, the Snake is forecast to break the record for CFS which was set on June 21, 1997 at 38,500. I ran it at 36,500 and it was the scariest thing I have ever done. While huge whitewater is can be fun, people will perish on the Snake this year. If you were to ask me for a number, I would say 5. It is simply a fact of life if you are going to risk running the Snake above 30,000. I was just talking yesterday with a freind who ran it with me at 36,500 and he also ran it with another group at 38,000. We both decided we don't have the hunger to run it this year above 30,000. I guess we are getting old. The Snake has not been over 20,000 cfs in years, so very few of the younger guides or enthusiasts have seen, or run, this type of water. All it takes is a split second and one bad decision to ruin your day.

Each river also has a signature rapid. The Snake is either "Lunch Counter" or "Big Kahuna", depending on water levels. The Grand Canyon is "Lava". Hells Canyon, where I flipped my only boat, is "Granite". These are the biggest and nastiest on a run and considered the crux.

This morning it is laying low at only 3000 cfs. I will take a pic or two this morning to show what the Snake looks like at low water. In a few weeks I will get one above 30,000 cfs and show you what life threatening whitewater looks like. You will be impressed!

Other rivers get nasty at much lower cfs, like the Middle Fork of the Slamon, which gets huge around 7,000 cfs and is also very technical. Some rivers, like the Colorado can run over a 100,000 cfs, although it hasn't in years, but this year? The biggest whitewater on the planet? There is some arguement there, but I am going to say the Zambizi in Africa. Not only does it run over 200,000 cfs with 30-40 ft whitewater, it also has hippos and crocodiles you have to avoid. It is run commercially, but I think I will pass.

So, Hedgehog, book your ticket for around mid-June. If you come, I will blow the dust off my life jacket, get the boat ready, and we will scare the **** out of each other! HAHA! Oh yeah, bring Joe, I think the Florida flatlanders would get a kick out of the Snake at 40,000 cfs.

[Donziweasel]

You know, I changed my mind. I am going to run it at it's peak. It only happens every 10 years, and they will be talking about the "big one" for years. As far as I know, other than my buddy who ran it at 38,000, my group ran it at the second highest cfs in history. Commercial operations were suspended that year and no one else was crazy enough to do it.

I will get 10-12 other guides and at least 2 kayakers for safety boaters. Also, will have people on the sides with throw ropes.

[Donziweasel]

Just told Boo Boo I was going to run it. She can row class IV. It did not go over well. Some of the qoutes were "you were 10 years younger in 1997" and "you were actually in shape in 1997". Ouch! She said "absolutly not". Hmmmm......the question now is, do it and ask for forgiveness or try and get permission. :hangum:

[BUIZILLA]

I've never understood how they can accurately measure CFS on a river run??

[The Hedgehog]

Good explanation Hedgehog. On top of that, each river has it's own personality. The Snake is what we call a "straight shooter". When you run it, you simply line the boat up before the rapid, get your speed up, and hit it. Other that keeping the boat straight (getting a boat sideways in a rapid is really really bad), you have very little input throughout the rapid.
The other type is technical whitewater. Here you actually have to move the boat in the rapid. Technical is usually not as big, but takes more skill, and kayakers typically like this type of water more than huge staright foward rapids. Of course, there are many in between or with both types of rapids.
The Snake is a docile Class III at 14,000 cfs. It is a bone crushing IV at 24,000. Above 30,000, it is a terrifying class V (on a I-VI scale) with 15-20 ft breakers, rollers, standing walls, suck holes, whirlpools and strong hydrualics of water that surge unpredicatably. It is a bonefide monster.
With our record snow this year, the Snake is forecast to break the record for CFS which was set on June 21, 1997 at 38,500. I ran it at 36,500 and it was the scariest thing I have ever done. While huge whitewater is can be fun, people will perish on the Snake this year. If you were to ask me for a number, I would say 5. It is simply a fact of life if you are going to risk running the Snake above 30,000. I was just talking yesterday with a freind who ran it with me at 36,500 and he also ran it with another group at 38,000. We both decided we don't have the hunger to run it this year above 30,000. I guess we are getting old. The Snake has not been over 20,000 cfs in years, so very few of the younger guides or enthusiasts have seen, or run, this type of water. All it takes is a split second and one bad decision to ruin your day.
Each river also has a signature rapid. The Snake is either "Lunch Counter" or "Big Kahuna", depending on water levels. The Grand Canyon is "Lava". Hells Canyon, where I flipped my only boat, is "Granite". These are the biggest and nastiest on a run and considered the crux.
This morning it is laying low at only 3000 cfs. I will take a pic or two this morning to show what the Snake looks like at low water. In a few weeks I will get one above 30,000 cfs and show you what life threatening whitewater looks like. You will be impressed!
Other rivers get nasty at much lower cfs, like the Middle Fork of the Slamon, which gets huge around 7,000 cfs and is also very technical. Some rivers, like the Colorado can run over a 100,000 cfs, although it hasn't in years, but this year? The biggest whitewater on the planet? There is some arguement there, but I am going to say the Zambizi in Africa. Not only does it run over 200,000 cfs with 30-40 ft whitewater, it also has hippos and crocodiles you have to avoid. It is run commercially, but I think I will pass.
So, Hedgehog, book your ticket for around mid-June. If you come, I will blow the dust off my life jacket, get the boat ready, and we will scare the **** out of each other! HAHA! Oh yeah, bring Joe, I think the Florida flatlanders would get a kick out of the Snake at 40,000 cfs.

That sounds good. I will look into that.:beer:

I would agree about the Zambezi. I will dig up some pics on that. It is amazing. I used to think I wanted to go tackle that thing.

You are correct about the technical thing. We call it volume/gradient interaction. For instance, the Green in NC is amazing Class V run but a normal flow is only 220 CFS. The steep section is around 500 feet per mile. The New at 20,000 CFS is some huge class V but the gradient is 15-20 feet per mile.

I would appreciate a pic of the Snake at 3,000

[Donziweasel]

They actually have "gauging stations" along the river that are connected by satellite to various reporting agencies like the Forest Service and Bureau of Reclomation. In the old day, they had a cable across the river with a hand cart on it. They would wheel themselves to the middle and drop a rope with a very heavy wieght on it to measure levels. Many rivers, including the Snake, still have the cables accross them. I believe there are a handful of rivers that are still measured this way.

Here are a couple of link to river flows-

http://www.usbr.gov/pn/hydromet/burtea.cfm

The Snake-

http://www.usbr.gov/pn-bin/graphrt.pl?alpy_q

and others in Wyoming-

http://water.usgs.gov/waterwatch/?m=real&w=map&r=wy

You can click on any of the rivers or lakes in all three sites and see the graphs and flows. They are updated hourly.

[Donziweasel]

Tried a new tactic, I told Boo Boo she could go with us. She was not amused and simply said "I won't even watch". Hmmmm......

[Donziweasel]

I have a pic also from the Zambezi. 40ft curler like a surfing wave at 180,000 cfs. There is a kayaker off to the side looking at it, and he looks like an ant next to it. I will see if I can find it.

I had a freind who guided on it for a few years. He said at certain flows, before a big rapid, they would pull over and unload the boat. Then they would push the boat out and let it go through the rapid with no one in it, then they would catch it on the other side because it was so dangerous. He said they had no idea of safety with old life jackets and boats. After watching 15 people die in 2 years, including 3 crocodile attacks, he quit.

[rtgogo]

HH...
What's the Ocoee and Nantahala lookin like this time of year? I'm headed up the Blue Ridge and Skyline Drive on a week long bike tour and ride thru the gorge for starters....Went up in early fall and it was dry as a bone, look forward to seeing it with some flow....

[Donziweasel]

That's Hedgehogs playground. He would probably know.

[The Hedgehog]

HH...
What's the Ocoee and Nantahala lookin like this time of year? I'm headed up the Blue Ridge and Skyline Drive on a week long bike tour and ride thru the gorge for starters....Went up in early fall and it was dry as a bone, look forward to seeing it with some flow....

Just got off the Ocoee a few hours ago. They are both running. I will post a few pics later. I discussed the huge water up on the Snake with the wife earlier. She did not seem to mind but indicated that I am on my own for that idea. :wink:

If you run down hwy 64 by the Ocoee during the week you will probably not find it running. I don't think that they release during the week until June. I can get a schedule if you like.

If you want to check out some cool stuff in Bama go to Little River canyon. It is amazing. Big waterfalls and some boulder smashing class V in the later fall, winter and early spring. Lots of really cool overlooks. If you ever get interested in whitewater check out Alabamawhitewater.com I have written some of the river narratives on that sight as well as americanwhitewater.org. There is some crazy technical whitewater in north Alabama.

I am going to take some folks down the Cheoha next weekend in my raft. It is kind of like the Ocoee on steriods. :eek!: It only runs during select releases during the spring and fall. Maybe one in Aug. It is on the edge of the Smoky Mountain park area.

[The Hedgehog]

I have ridden my SeaDoo up to and under that second pic above more times than I can count, in fact one time the water flow was so hard it flipped me over.... :doh: gotta watch out for the snakes in the whirlpool area too..

Did you take the jet ski through the big hole (hydraulic) below twin falls? I bet that would be a trip.

[rtgogo]

Little River Canyon is nice, makes a great day trip on the bike!! Think 64 is what I'm runnin to ride along side the river...I take the scenic route to the Blue Ridge by way of Cherohala Skyway and 129...Very nice!

[BUIZILLA]

Did you take the jet ski through the big hole (hydraulic) below twin falls? I bet that would be a trip.if the water is high enough we could ride right up under those falls no problem, otherwise your walking/swimming in..

[Team Jefe]

June you say??? Sounds like a ride of a lifetime...of course I haven't been on whitewater in 2 decades and not much expereince with anything above a II maybe III

[Cuda]

I basically knew what it was about, I just thought it could use some more explanation, to generate more replies, which it did. :)