Really Old School

[troubledwaters]

Looking for some feedback on a old school ride I decided to create from a 1920 Hacker gentleman's racer. I believe anyone that appreciates classics can understand my reasoning for building it.

[vonkamp]

What power is going in it?

[rustnrot]

I did something similar with my Gar Wood Speedster replica project. Mold of original hull, CNC cut mahogany planks glued to inner fiberglass hull.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46928

Seeing as you are a yacht designer it appears that you did NOT use the original Hacker designed bottom, I applaud you for that!

The Mazda rotary engine was a fun experiment but I cannot recommend it.

[troubledwaters]

I plan to put a used mecury 233 that has had some mods including gt40 heads, Edelbrock intake, and 4brl 600cfm carb. The transmission is 1:1 and will turn a 12x21 blade if I can find one.

[BUIZILLA]

there was a step hull like that at Tavares a few weeks back, I think Tidbart took a good pic of it, parked right next to the ramp on a trailer, from Saranac Lake NY... the rudder and shaft setup was completely off the charts..

[troubledwaters]

First Let Me Say, I Hope My Project Turns Out Half As Nice As Rustnrot Gar Wood Project! That Truely Is A Masterpiece. I Would Like To Learn More About Your Process For Applying The Mahogany.

Here Is A Pic Of The Bottom Step Detail With Strut,shaft,and Rudder. Aft Of The Step Is Prismatic And I Turned Down The Chines For Extra Lift And Stability.

[rustnrot]

Buiz--that was Peter Kreissle's stepped boat. And get this....it DOES have the Mazda rotary in it. The Speedster hull is just way to "displacement-ish" to get it up outta the water and get speed out of it with the original 1934 hull lines.

That is why I am excited to see trouble's boat appears to have a modern bottom design.

[BUIZILLA]

Tom, we need to find a pic of the rudder/shaft/prop setup on that boat... I found it extremely cool and impressive... brilliant actually..

hopefully Tidbart has a pic, I think he took one when we both were looking over the boat and talking to the owner..

[rustnrot]

Trouble...feel free to call me on my cell at 706-267-8729. I can run a CNC machine but I wish I could 3D model like you can--those are beautiful.

Attached is the engine I would have put in the Speedster had I owned it when I was doing them. 300 hp, 9 psi, marinized in New Zealand...Eventually I will intercool it when I figure out what hull I am putting it in...

[rustnrot]

Buiz, I can get Peter to send me some pics if you all do not have any. If I had not gotten sick for the show I was supposed to drive it.

He had a crappy "homebuilt" transmission on it and I set him up with a ZF with high speed pump to handle the rotarys high rpms.

Trouble, hurry up with the boat already and join us this November in Florida...

www.classicraceboatassoc.com (http://www.classicraceboatassoc.com)

[BlownCrewCab]

Question???? Why the 2 piece hull mold? is that just for ease of doing it in the garage? I don't see anything that would stop it from coming out of a 1 piece. the rolled gunnell aft looks like once it popped loose you could move forward and get it out. Thats how Brownies Alpha Z's where...I'm sure you have good reason (you do Fantastic work) I was just wondering Why the 2 piece.

That thing is Beautiful......

[troubledwaters]

That's an awsome powerplant: I need! I better finish the boat first. Florida in Nov. may be a strech but, It might give me something to shoot for. I will be laying up the the deck mold next week and hope to have a part within a month. I still have to install the engine ,all new for me. I Spend most of my time drawing, butchering wood & spreading Bondo. Forgot to mention sanding;hundreds of hours sanding!!

I would be interested in the pics of the rudder assembly sounds unique.

[Craig S]

Beautiful boat!
What is the loa and beam?

[troubledwaters]

Overall 16'6" x 5'6" beam The original was 14'3 1/2" x 4'9 1/2" no tumblehome at transom.

The 2 part mold was for insurance only. I didn't think I could ride the stem up to pull the amount of neg. draft in the aft area. I was very surprised when it popped out without splitting.

[smoothie]

Nice work! I like the ****pit and windshield :wink: I have plans for a inboard Crandall's Flyer that I would like to build.
http://www.classicwoodenboatplans.com/comparison.png

[rustnrot]

You know, Trouble, I think Peter Kreissle's boat I mentioned earlier IS the Slippery, IIRC. It is either that one or another one from the same family of Hacker plans that has a very similar name like Spray or something like that. But I believe it is Slippery, he built it maybe 10 years ago to 1:1 scale.

Anyway, we need pics of the boat, rudder, etc.

[troubledwaters]

Smoothie, I was eyeing up those plans myself. I had already started slippery before I found that site. He offers a lot of nice plans with very detailed building info.
Well worth the price!

Rustnrot,Is Peter a member of this site?

[chappy]

Very nice work indeed.:yes:

[BUIZILLA]

I would be interested in the pics of the rudder assembly sounds unique. do not do anything whatsoever, until you see and study Peter's drive and rudder pic's... absolutely fascinating..

[rustnrot]

Trouble, I sent you a PM with Peter's phone number...................

[gcarter]

I like this boat!!!
I too am so glad you included a VEE bottom on it. I don't understand why so many reproduction '30's boats are being reproduced w/the original bottoms.:doh:

The article by Hacker.....what issue of Motorboating did it come out of?
Did you develop the lines from those few sections? If so, good work!


This is sure a lot more interesting than VHF antennas on 22C's!!:yes::yes:

[riptide]

I did something similar with my Gar Wood Speedster replica project. Mold of original hull, CNC cut mahogany planks glued to inner fiberglass hull.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46928

Seeing as you are a yacht designer it appears that you did NOT use the original Hacker designed bottom, I applaud you for that!

The Mazda rotary engine was a fun experiment but I cannot recommend it.
How about aSubaru? riptide

[smoothie]

I cant stop looking at the details:) what software are you running ???

[troubledwaters]

I use rhino 3d. It's a great surface software for the price. ($995.00) I work with people using software that cost five to ten time the price and can give them a run for the money. In the fiberglass industry the tolarance is not as critical so I prefer surface over solid modeling.

By the way a big thanks go out to everyone for the positive reinforcment. It will make trucking out to the garage to finish the project much easier.

www.rhino3d.com (http://www.rhino3d.com)

[troubledwaters]

Smoothie,
I use rhino 3d! It a great surface sofware without the price tag. It is the same software I use at my current job. Can't beat it for under a grand!!!

gcarter
This is the other 3 pages I found on a free plans type web page. Don't know much more than that. I thought it had nice lines and was a project that could fit in my small garage.

[gcarter]

Thanks!
I was wondering as I, in the past, collected old boating magazines and often the magazines like Powerboating, Rudder, etc, would have a well known designer or N.A. design a boat w/lines plans, table of offsets, scantlings, and specifications. I have no idea how often anyone would actually build one, but they are invaluable rescources regardless. I always enjoyed them because they showed how boats were actually built during the '20's and '30's.

[smoothie]

Isnt it amazing George what they designed back then with only a pencil,paper and drafting table...some good looking boats.

[troubledwaters]

Just thought I would update the progress on the deck.I have no fingerprints left after all the sanding but, I think it was worth the effort. I hope to have less work on the mold once it is pulled.

[Tidbart]

Here is a photo of the Lady Saranac that Buizilla was talking about earlier.
This one was taken by Cuda. I will take a look for the ones I took.
Bob

[samjannarone]

This is a really cool thread--amazing work going on. What kind of an engine is that, the one marinized in New Zealand? Thanks.
Sam

[troubledwaters]

Thanks Tidbart,
Is that Peter's boat everyone is talking about? I called Peter but, caught him at a bad time and still haven't re-connected. It is a thing of beauty! I can't wait to discuss his boat in more detail soon. That is just the shot in the arm I needed to go out and put another layer on the deck mold.

I tried my hand at welding a trailer but, I will stick to wood and Bondo.
See attached photo

[BUIZILLA]

I'm not sure how close you live to Peter, but I can't emphasize enough that if you can get to see his boat in person, it will save you light years of drafting and fabrication time...

[gcarter]

I'm absolutely amazed at how far aft the step is located on the Lady Saranac.
I'm not saying it won't work or anything, it's just a loooooong way back. It looks to be just aft of the CG.
On another note, I really like the outboard shaft bearing integrated w/the rudder stock. This is a feature always encouraged by Dr. Lindsey Lord NA. The problem with that arrangement is that it was always custom and therefore always expensive but it definately reduces drag.

[MOP]

I wonder what they did to get 300HP out of the Buick V6, stock they made 225. It looks like the stock blower and pulley setup, the 3800 is a great engine that is what my Park Ave had.

[troubledwaters]

Pulled the deck today :yes:didn't go as planned!:eek!: Stuck in a few spots but,all n all I am happy. I have to say dumping the deck plug into the dumpster was bitter sweet. what do you think of the scale sitting on a 52 foot deck mold.

[troubledwaters]

Finally, I have a deck part! Had a baby and that sure slowed progress down. Had to hire a friend to lay-up the part, It turn out nice,some minor flaws, nothing that I can't buff out. Time to trim it up and dry run it on the hull part.

[zelatore]

Troubledwaters -

Excellent project! Can't wait to see it come to completions!

I noticed you're in WI, and then you show a pic sitting on a 52' deck mold for what appears to be an express of some sort.

That pic wouldn't have been taken in Oconto, WI would it?

(I've been to Oconto, but I've spent more time in Pulaski)

[troubledwaters]

Zelatore,
You are very observant: Oconto would be the correct answer but, I spent some time in the Pulaski area.

[gcarter]

At this point, you might would b e better served by a set of boat dollies rather than that trailer.
I can't begin to describe how happy I am w/mine. They free up a lot of room and makes the boat very accessable.

[Just Say N20]

Fantastic Job! I can't even imagine undertaking a project of this magnitude.

Was it an anxious moment, wondering if there would be enough clearance between the engine hatch deck opening and the exhaust manifolds?

[troubledwaters]

N20 That was one of many. Thanks for the support.


gcarter do you have a good source for the boat dollies? I've seen them in others pictures and sure would like to get a set.

[troubledwaters]

Finally, I put it in the water to check the waterline before installing the exhaust. It sat right on its waterlines. Very little freeboard but, I hope the fairing will help feel more secure.

[Ghost]

Looks great, what a project! Cool to see it actully in the water, even just for this test. (That's a pretty big rock-paper-scissors call to see who does the wading...)

[Craig S]

Sweet!@!!

[troubledwaters]

Any sugestions on exhaust? need to get from A to B. Trident elbows? glass tubes? flex tube? combinations!! any thoughts would be helpful.

[mphatc]

Nice project! You're making excellent progress:yes:

This looks like you may have a height challenge, as though the riser exit is almost on the same plane as the top of the stringer . .

You may need to go to a riser that exits at a 45 degrees, and elbow off of that, or a straigh back exit and make the connection behind the bulkhead?

I used the Trident elbows on the Coriscan, they work well, are easy to install, but still use the same amount of space as a mandrel bent SS elbow. A mitred cut elbow, though harsh for flow will be shorter. As I no longer use these with the CMI exhaust, they are available, in blue. Only with 30 hours use.

I have a friend with a 1949 Chris Craft racing runabout, powered by a 327 V8 who built his exhaust from copper tube 3 1/2" OD. This would offer many variables on pieces to fabricate with.

Mario

1969 Corsican
1968 Magnum 27

[zelatore]

Finally, I put it in the water to check the waterline before installing the exhaust. It sat right on its waterlines. Very little freeboard but, I hope the fairing will help feel more secure.

Impressive!

I love pic #4....it should be subtitled 'faster! push faster!'

[troubledwaters]

Still plugin away! Hope to start the engine this weekend. It has been sitting for two years; hope all goes well. Glad to be finished with the glass parts.

[troubledwaters]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8VVJza-kMY

I need to go for a ride soon, sounds great!!!!

[Conquistador_del_mar]

What an incredibly ambitious and unusual project boat - highly cool - sounds great. I will look forward to hearing about how it runs. Congratulations, Bill

[Just Say N20]

You exemplify tenacity and persistence!

It will be interesting to hear how it sounds in the water. Some of the side exhaust boats installed a crossover pipe between the two sides to get the V8 sound as opposed to the 4 banger sound.

Great project. What del_Mar said! :yes:

[f_inscreenname]

First, WOW! that is one hell of a project and very nicely done.
Sadly I'm a fixer not a builder but I love those exhaust tips. Where did you get them at? By the looks of your talent I figure you made them yourself but had to ask.

[troubledwaters]

f_in This is the link to where I buy a lot of my parts. Not the cheapest but, they always have unique stuff.

http://www.greatlakesskipper.com/productdetail.cfm?CatID=S232&ProductID=5371

Thanks for all the encouraging comments it means a lot! Sitting here looking out over the bay of Green Bay the water is like glass and, I can just picture going for a ride. I just might have to work a little harder so I can take advantage of beautiful evenings like tonight. In Wisconsin these days are very limited!!!

Any one know the best contact for Gauges; Livorsi or equivalent? I will buy used if in good condition.
Thanks,
Nick

[vrod02]

Very cool boat! You the dude!:yes:

[rustnrot]

Hey Mr. T Waters, any updates??

[troubledwaters]

Rust
Not allot happening lately!! I'm waiting for parts and, been busy with the newborn. It's hard to get out and get anything done between naps. I have all day off with my lay-off but, now have limited funds. I barter for most of my parts so, I'm at the mercy of their schedule.I have two cables coming and it will be ready to test so, I expect to be on the water soon. Here are a couple recent photos and once again thanks for all the moral support.
Troubled

[rustnrot]

Thanks for the update and best of luck to you sir!

[troubledwaters]

Just finished the steering and tank install. This is just a mock up and will look much more clean as a finished piece. Powdercoated parts are in the future plans. I'm so close I can taste the water!! Stay tuned for the first run!!!!

Nick

[troubledwaters]

Today I will be going for my first test ride:kingme: The water is like glass and the boat has been fueled and fired. Wish me luck! If you do not see a video soon you will know things went very wrong!!
Nick

[troubledwaters]

Well, I finally made the water! The boat didn't perform as expected but, all in all I still had a big smile on my face. I have a porpoise issue that I will try and correct with some tabs,prop, or wedge. I tried interceptors and they lifted the back but, it really got squirrely.If anyone has some advise please feel free to share.
Hope you enjoy the short vid my wife shot.
Nick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbqjaAh8arw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avoFte1aVVs

[mphatc]

Very Coool! Congrats on your launch and run!

I have a friend that runs a 19 Chris Craft racing runabout, 1949, very over powered witha 400 HP 327, it also porpoised . . . solved with wedges on the stern, and a custom prop, start small and thin, adding some from the inside out . . take your time, you'll likely need to adjust these with time, once you figure out ideal fuel and passenger load . . and the correct prop . . .

Keep sharing!

Mario L.

[rustnrot]

Your porpoise does not look bad. On one of the Gar Wood speedster replicas I built it porpoised so bad getting two people to ride up front leaning forward would not stop it.

Putting two wedges at the trailing edge of the transom (one each side about 3/4 way out to chine) about 4 inches long, 1/8" thick going to 1/16" thick at the front of each wedge stopped it. That's ALL it took! Mine were made of aluminum I glued to the fiberglass with 5200 and sanded them down till I got what I wanted.

I started with two torque tabs from TH marine and sanded down from there. I did not screw to the hull, just 5200'd and was fine.

[silverghost]

Fantastic speedboat project!
Gar Wood must be looking down from above with a big smile on his face!
Have you, or any of the other fiberglass replica/re-creation guys on this forum ever tried to recreate a faux wood grain effect with two types of gellcoat ; using a lghter colored gel as an underbase and a mahogany brown top gell with faux wood graining combs etc?
In the 80s Elite~Craft built several fiberglass Chirs~Craft replicas. The Elite~Craft Riveria was a barrel back design. They also made a ski-boat design.They used what they called their "Secret Process" of faux graining.
To the untrained eye at 4-5 feet it looked like real mahogany planking!
I oftened wondered how they did this great mahogany wood grain effect on fiberglass?
Brad Hunter

[mike o]

My hats off to ya. Nice boat, very :yes: nice job.

[lars]

This is what it's all about!!! Fantastic project and a beautiful craft she is. If Jay Leno was into boating he'd be very excited about this one.
Do agree with Mario "mphatc", the prop is very important on a craft like this.

Best of luck.

[Greg Guimond]

Amazing thread and curious where things ended up?

[troubledwaters]

Let me start by saying the winters just seem to get longer and longer. After a short break ,I have resumed work on the boat. I started the process of applying the mahogany to the deck. I would like to thank rustnrot for all the great advice on applying and gluing the wood down. I would have made some time consuming mistakes without his input. I hope to have it finished by spring so I can resume testing. Again,Thanks for all the advise and complements.

[rustnrot]

Nick (it's Nick, right?) that looks great. Since you are putting straight boards basically on top of a spherical surface there will be errors. As you get closer to the outer edge of the boat this will become more apparent. That last filler board, which will be straight on the one side and completely curved on the outer can be used to compensate. That, and "bending" the other boards sideways some.

I don't know what you have planned for the covering boards, but I would just paint them as normally they are stained very dark and you see little of the grain. It appears sanding the deck flush with the covering boards would work well.

[troubledwaters]

Had a full day to play so, I finished dry fit of the fore deck wood
Tom,
You are correct, I had to compensate as I went. I determined I didn't need the skin on the end of my thumb so,I decided to stick the screw bit into it about half way through the job! (@5%%^&) Oh well **** happens. Time to start ripping strips for the aft deck. Updates to follow.
Nick

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Nick,
What did you use to hold the planks down - 5200? I presume you will be pulling the bolts and filling the gaps. Will you be using a white caulking or something else? The planks look great. It is fun to see the progress. Bill

[silverghost]

Nick: Very cool retro project.
I grew-up with real mahogany planked runabouts.
Caulked many deck seams in my young days.
I have Marine Spar Varnish in my blood.
I can still remember the great varnish smell each spring.

Keep your progress photos comming !

Sort of gives me the bug to start looking for a new wood boat project hull !
Or~ A fiberglass wreck to put a new planked deck on !

Good Luck!
Brad

[troubledwaters]

Just finished dry fitting the wood strips to the deck. I'm not looking forward to removing all the screws so I can glue it down.
Bill,
After talking to Rustnrot, I ordered some thick epoxy to glue it to the deck. He tried both 5200 and the epoxy and he like the results better with the epoxy. Stay tuned I'll let you know how it goes.
Nick

[Dr. David Fleming]

Nick,

I just stumbled on to this site as I usually am in the performance talk section.

I have a number of original boats from the 1920's and I live in the Detroit area.

Your project is very facinating and shows great skill in working fiberglass.

John Hacker built boats on the Clinton River in Mt. Clemens, MI. His factory is still standing and is now a marina. Of course in Michigan these boats liter the landscape because the salt water has not destroyed them. Some are here and there on the bottom of fresh water lakes. Early mahogany hulls are of course rare because like anything else they got out of style and were disrespected and destroyed. I have seen many Garwood and Chris Craft hulls set on fire and crushed by bulldozers in the 1960's and 70's. There are many still around looking for a good home.

John Hacker was the great Marine Architect of the age. His family still lives in the Mt. Clemens area and I know his grandson. Hacker lost his business in the great depression, like the one that is killing boat building in Florida today. Someday there will be folks looking for Don Axxxxx, Regie Fxxxxx, and Chris Cxxxxx to ask them why and how they came up with the hull designs they did.

I wonder how the weight of your composite compares to the all wooden original hull? Older marine power was heavy and lacked performance. Wood boats of that age were somewhat flexable and the hulls tended to have a deformation that was considered in their design.

Most of my work has been in restoration using West Epoxy so I have seen some change in hull performance and issues of porpoise because the hull doesn't have the "give" that plain wood has.

You hull sure has that 1930's ART DECO styling.

[Dr. David Fleming]

Nick,

I just stumbled on to this site as I usually am in the performance talk section.

I have a number of original boats from the 1920's and I live in the Detroit area.

Your project is very facinating and shows great skill in working fiberglass.

John Hacker built boats on the Clinton River in Mt. Clemens, MI. His factory is still standing and is now a marina. Of course in Michigan these boats liter the landscape because the salt water has not destroyed them. Some are here and there on the bottom of fresh water lakes. Early mahogany hulls are of course rare because like anything else they got out of style and were disrespected and destroyed. I have seen many Garwood and Chris Craft hulls set on fire and crushed by bulldozers in the 1960's and 70's. There are many still around looking for a good home.

John Hacker was the great Marine Architect of the age. His family still lives in the Mt. Clemens area and I know his grandson. Hacker lost his business in the great depression, like the one that is killing boat building in Florida today. Someday there will be folks looking for Don Axxxxx, Regie Fxxxxx, and Chris Cxxxxx to ask them why and how they came up with the hull designs they did.

I wonder how the weight of your composite compares to the all wooden original hull? Older marine power was heavy and lacked performance. Wood boats of that age were somewhat flexable and the hulls tended to have a deformation that was considered in their design.

Most of my work has been in restoration using West Epoxy so I have seen some change in hull performance and issues of porpoise because the hull doesn't have the "give" that plain wood has.

You hull sure has that 1930's ART DECO styling.

[rustnrot]

As you all know, I built a couple of replica Gar Wood speedsters using an all fiberglass hull, a mold of which was taken from an original; the build referenced earlier in this thread.

That said, I have over the years wholeheartedly disagreed with the statement that I have heard many times, "wooden boats have that sea-kindly ride due to flexing of the hull". Whether the flexing was designed-in on purpose or as a result of the type of wood construction, I don't know. I do know this, of the boats that I have built (and restored) and others that I have ridden in, these original wood hull designs (while really crappy, but they didn't know better at the time) ride and handle much better rigid than when they "wiggle". Of course, this is just my opinion based on what I have observed and I know others experience it differently.

That said, Nick's hull (thank goodness) is a modernized hull design that should be far superior to what the original Hacker plans called for. From the 20's to the 50's, the Chris Craft and other hulls suffered from a warped bottom construction (varying vee as it went rearward) rather than a moderate (and straight vee) design. They also got it wrong at the front with a concave shape to the hull cutting through the waves where nowadays it would be designed as convex.

For an interesting perspective on old vs. new hull designs, a friend of mine, Jack Rouse, had a modern hull designed and built a modern hulled Chris Craft Cobra replica.

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/ChrisCraftCobra.htm

[Greg Guimond]

Man super cool thread .........glad I dug this thread back up!

[silverghost]

" Restoration" of these wooden boats today usually does not come close to how solid these old mahogany boats were when new.
Most "Restorers" today skip steps, use too much of the old wood & and only do what they think is needed. If you had to pay for a complete re-build it would cost $50-100 K ! Few can afford to do this!
The old double bottoms had canvas & bedding compound between the bottoms. The bedding compound would only last 6-8 years then dry out !
The boat would then begin to leak badly. Engine oil from the bilge also hurt the bottoms in time.
Some today use 3M 5200 between bottom plys. This is great but makes future repair almost impossible. The canvas cloth is skipped !
Most restorers do not use a steam box to bend planking !
Steaming actually changes the cellular wood fiber structure & makes a better bent plank.
A new wood boat should be solid & sound like a drum when pounded with your flat hand !
Few are like this today!
Most really flex.

As a kid I had an older family friend "Uncle Jack Thompson " ,of Thompson Boatworks, who taught me the old mahogany wooden boat building tecniques using the old materials.
Jack & his crew built hundreds of boats over his 88 year lifetime.
He had a well equipped shop with two steam boxes & a big boiler & a marine railroad for boatsp to 80 feet !
Today people want old classic mahogany runabouts that can be launched by trailer for a few hours a day.
This was never the original designer's intent inthe 20s-30s!

I love what you guys are doing with the combo fiberglass & wood boats.
This makes for a much longer lasting boat hull with far less work to maintain.
They can be trailered and used for a few hours and then retrieved !
Kepp those great classic designs alive !

[rustnrot]

...
Keep those great classic designs alive !

But please, for the sake of your own safety and that of your loved ones, when building and designing a replica, please re-engineer the bottom to a modern type. It will also be more higher-horsepower friendly.

[Dr. David Fleming]

I hear you and would like to call your attention to a couple of things about wood boats.

I am a member of Bayview Yacht Club one of the premere sportsmans clubs in Detroit. Sailboat racing - well a couple of winters ago "Tomahawk" was stored at the club and was knocked over in a windstorm. The fiberglass hull was punctured. The boat was taken to the best for fiberglass sectional repair. The next year during the Port Huron to Mackinac race in a serious storm on Lake Michigan. The boat sank in a sudden collapse of the sectional repair. Tomahawk is and will remain on the bottom of 300 feet of water. Fiberglass while the medium of the modern boat has some serious shortcomings in its ability of be successfully repaired. Wood does not have this. Take the US Constitution naval vessel as example.

Tyler Crockett sold his red race boat - new owner had the entire rear planing section of the hull collapse out from under the engine - where it had been structurally weakened by racing. Apparently no one could detect this. I wonder when I see the fiberglass race boats stuff and come apart on U tube how much better they might stay together if they were wood. Especially epoxy/wood construction.

In Egypt a couple of years ago I saw the funeral bark of the Pharoah dug out of a tomb next to the great pyramid. I was shocked to see the scarf wood construction used in 4000BC the same as used in wood construction today. Quality wood boat technology has stood the test of time. US Navy minesweepers today are made of wood not fiberglass.

Epoxy and Polysulfide calk that hardens under water have only strengthened wood as a building medium. Maya Craft a local 1920's Michigan wood boat builder regulary constructs new off shore hulls in the $200,000 range. Hulls are encapsuled in Epoxy. In this context wood and fiberglass start to come closer together in a new "composite boat construction medium." Maybe they ought to throw a little kelvar in the mix.

I would venture to say fiberglass replaced traditional wood construction because of the cost of construction and unwillingness of the manufacturers to change technology and methods.

[silverghost]

Dr. David:
I agree with your many points.
I remember in the early~ mid 60s there were
still some new wooden boats sitting in dealer's showrooms.
They could not discount them enough to sell them without loosing their shirts.
In Somers Point NJ there were two brand new Lyman lapstrake sea-skiffs that sat un-sold for 8 years.
Nobody wanted to buy a new wooden boat anymore. The fiberglass Lymans sold~ The Pacemaker/ Allglass boats sold like hotcakes.~ The new wooden sister Pacemaker & Lyman boats did not !
People thought fiberglass to be the new wonder material.
You did not have to paint it, caulk it, varnish it, and deal with leaks each year.
Wooden boats were a lot of work & up-keep.
Fiberglass opened -up boating to the masses!
People wanted to enjoy using their boats~ not spend time to maintain them!
Some of these early fiberglass boats were very bad designs !
Pacemaker & Lyman & others used their old wood boat designs as a plug for their first molds.
Some of these hulls had the shape of a bathtub !
They were very bad boats!
Early fiberglass designs were made in single piece molds that were easy to pop-out the entire hull .
As fiberglass boat building evolved better hull designs evolved that eventualy became the boats we have today.
Don and his Donzi, Magnum, Cigarette, Formula, boats were light years ahead of most of the others. He & his designers appreciated what innovation fibergass could give you in regard
to hull shape. Compound curves & radical shapes were easy to build in fiberglass.
Designs were unlimited by the material.
I like what is being built here on this thread~
The best of old wood school & new design materials.
I also agree with what RustNRot & his friends have been building with more modern safer high-speed fiberglass hull designs & wood planked decks.
My next project after my Donzi "Benchseat 18" restortion will be a Gentleman's Speester design using a old wrecked Donzi 18 hull.
The hunt is on for that Donzi 18 wreck project hull!
Anyone know of an old Donzi 18 out there that needs lots of help ?

[troubledwaters]

Well, final sanding is done and ready for some finish work. I picked out a paint scheme and now have to figure out what material to use. See attached photo. epoxy,clear-coat,poly urethane,spar varnish, stain, no stain,dye's and that's just for the wood part. seam filler and paint bring up just as many options.If anyone would like to weigh in on the subject please feel free. I like the look of the wood natural but, don't want to much light to dark contrast.
Nick

[silverghost]

On our old "Classic" we always used Interlux Mahogany Filler Stain thinned a bit with paint thinner. It comes in Red & Brown Mahogany.
Brush it on fairly thick & let it partially dry. Then with a rough cloth (old washcloth) rub across the grain to remove excess.
Seal with Interlux sealer & then build-up top-coats with a high qualty Spar Varnish.
Using this method the wood grain & color will really pop-out and shine !
We used to build-up 7-8 coats with light sanding in between coats .
On the outer deck covering boards & center King plank I would use a darker stain so you can just about see the grain.
This is how the old maogany racers were done in their day!
We used this method !
We maintained our "classics" this way for 35 years !
We had this down to a Science !
We used to use the old fashoned white seam (linseed oil based) compound on the deck seams for years. Seamlast or Dolphinite seam & bedding compound.
We switched to a polyurethane white caulk
and had great longer lasting leakproof results.
The spar varnish will move and expand & contract with the wood. It's easy to top-coat every few years if necessary also!

This is just my opinion.
Others may differ !

Will you be painting any of you hull-side gel ?

What sort of power-plant & drive system do you have on your racer?
V-Drive or straight inboard and Warner velvet drive ?

Fantastic Project !

[Ghost]

The color scheme (photo 1) you picked is some kinda sharp. Going to be a real jewel.

[Dr. David Fleming]

Silverghost has the general idea. The boats in the 1920's were styled a little different than later in the 1930's. The 20's tended to go for light mahogany with the kingplank and covering boards darker. Most of the old boat builders who did this in Detroit used a dark stain on the covering boards and kingplank and even painted the planks with black paint then used a towel with thinner to wipe off the paint and leave it in the grain. This was to get the color down dark. The UV sunlight will fade these colors eventually and you will get an nice walnutty color. The real light mahogany color of the 20's was a natural finish on Honduras Mahogany. As the Depression went on Chris Craft and others went to Phillipine (sp) Mahogany which in not a true mahogany. The Phillipine mahogany wood has a salmon pink color which looks really bad unless it is stained. Chris Craft had their own company stain which you could buy and was designed to give their darker color which eventually became quite popular.

If you check out the movie "The Great Gatsby" the opening scenes of the movie shows a 1920's hull in light mahogany trimmed in Nickel. Nickel plated boat hardware was standard on most cars and boats until the 30's.

One other thing that gave the color to the Honduras Mahogany was the color of the varnish. You, I am sure, are aware of the deep amber color of a good can of spar varnish. Well every coat kicked that glow into the hull. Eleven, sometimes twenty coats of varnish built up over the years added the tone.

I have seen West System Epoxy take a color similar to varnish but it is more yellow than the red amber of the varnish. On my antique hulls I often do epoxy repair and then varnish for the final finish, but the varnish still is a regular maintance item if the sunlight gets at the finish. Kept covered varnish can last for years. Fiberglass polyester coat will fade with sunlight also.

Petit used to offer a light mahogany stain for getting a consistant color to light mahogany finish. They also had a red mahogany and the darker Chris Craft. The red mahogany is the color of African mahogany which was the most exotic of boat lumber and not often encountered. I do have a 1929 Dee Wite runabout built in Detroit that is in African.

Hope his helps

[Dr. David Fleming]

troubledwaters,

I forgot to mention that your racer is a Hacker design. He was the "great light" of boat design of the wooden boat era. He alway had the most creative and trend setting ideas that were copied. Hacker had a huge following and a huge production. He lost the company in the depression but stayed on as an engineer in the firm.

Hacker built everything with Honduras mahogany and it was ALL finished in light color. If you want your Hacker racer to be authentic it should be light mahogany finish.

[troubledwaters]

I have started the varnishing process. I put on three layers and now going to start the seams. I tested the poly caulk and think that's the direction I'm leaning towards.I not real happy with the color of stain it is a lighter and more of a golden color vs the light red amber color I was going for. My test sample was to small to get a accurate idea. Oh well, I will make a note for the next one I build. I'm using Epifanes varnish and I am happy with the results so far. I did seal the wood with two layers of epoxy before I started the varnishing.

[silverghost]

Your deck project looks great !
You could still tint the varnish with a red powder or liquid dye stain in your next varnish coat if you wish.
It's not too late to do so !
Good mail order Woodworker's Supply,& Constantines etc carry stain in liquid & powder form. It will tint the varnish for you. It would give you more of that reddish glow that you are looking for that the old classics had.
We never had much luck with Polysulfide caulk (Boat Life Life caulk ). It never seemed to stick to anything but itself !
Grab one end of the cured caulk line and pull & it would all zip out in one strip!
We have had great luck with Polyurethane (3M 5200 ) . This caulk sticks very well and should last 20++ years on your deck seams with no leaks.
Caulking the deck seams is the hardest part of the job. Use the blue painter's tape on each side of the seam. It takes time to caulk deck seams ~ But the end the results are worth it.
Keep the great progress photos comming !
BRAD

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Great looking deck. I can almost smell the varnish fumes. There is nothing as gorgeous as freshly varnished wood on a boat in my book. Bill

[thehow33]

Looks really really nice...great job

[Dr. David Fleming]

I calked many a seem in an old wood hull, including making some old school calk with red lead powder, linseed oil and white lead. This is the only way to get the slab sided hulls to have a stable dry and original seam. I shudder to think of handling all that lead powder and the wind blowing the lead dust around. But that is the way they made paint and paint products "old school." Think I got the stuff from an old marine chandler in Boston, Kerbys.

Petit Paint used to make an old school calk you took out of the can with a putty knife, which was the way it was done in the day. This was after you hammered a calking cotton rope into the seam with a special tool called a calking iron. Hammered it down nice and tight, then payed the calk over the seam. The wood would swell on the rope and bind it all togeather tight. At least until the hull dried out and then you were in for a couple of days of swelling the hull to get it tight again.

I was in Egypt a couple of years ago and they were calking the dhaowd schooner hulls this way today. Calking hammer, iron, cotton and I can't say I saw a putty if they used one.

As far as underwater calk, the Boat Life was a big failure for me too. I ended up with Sikaflex which I know will cure under water and can be gunned into a leak. It seems about like the 3M 5200. On old school wood boat decks the planking is very unstable and swells with sunlight and water. It always surprised me that the original builders of these strip decks never finished the bottom side of the wood deck. At any rate I also had good success with these seams in white polysulfide, and the varnish turned it yellow color after much use. Old school wood boat builders informed me, that the original decks were painted white after calking to get all the seams nice and even, sort of like stripes. So I guess you could calk any color and then hand paint the seams to your liking.

Well, I think I will go out and calk a few miles of seam as it is all coming back to me now!

[Dr. David Fleming]

I forgot to tell you that your deck color is right on. It does lack the amber color but will pick that up from the varnish. Your deck color is just about perfect for an unfinished original Hacker. If you were not going to use a lot of coats of varnish then I would tint the varnish to pick up the amber color. This color issue you are discussing here always surfaces when someone replaced a plank on an already finished or older wood hull. A professional boat builder knew just how dark the wood would turn after a couple of months in the sun, and also how much the amber color natural marine varnish would pick up the depth and color. The novice could get in real trouble trying to color a piece of mahogany to match the boat and then after varnish and sunlight the thing would be hideous. The color is in the specific wood and the varinsh that is added. Stains were standard colors for wood boats - 1, natural honduras or light mahogany stain - 2, african mahogany or red stain, and 3 philipine mahogany with a necessary dark Chris Craft mahogany stain. I have seen a lot of restored hulls "screwed over" with the use of incorrect stains - you don't need "fruit wood stain," or "walnut," etc. its not a piano or a kitchen table.

[troubledwaters]

Well, the varnishing has begun. The smell of the varnish is very addicting ,kinda like aroma therapy. Maybe I should try and bottle that!!!! I got the seams caulked and put one layer of varnish on the boat.The amount of knowledge on this forum is awesome! Thanks to Tom, Brad, and Dr. D for all the valuable advice. It is down to routine of varnish and sanding. Next is paint,and stainless trim details.Spring is coming fast so, back to the shop!

[silverghost]

I always knew that spring had finally arrived when I could smell fresh spar varnish in Dad's garage !
You could always smell fresh spar varnish from 20 feet away of any of my Dad's Mahogany runabouts .
I have applied dozens of quarts of fresh spar varnish over the years.

Your newly caulked seams look great! The project is really comming along now !

Do you plan to keep the white gel or will you be painting the hull covering board & king plank area ?

Now that you put so much time, money, & effort into the hull and deck molds will you be building future copys ?
There is a yard near me in NJ that is building similar retro fiberglasss & wood trimmed deck speedboats that are selling for $75-100 K each !
Cherubini I think they are called !
I have friends who would love a to own a copy of your great project !
BRAD

[troubledwaters]

Brad,
On this one, I will be painting the king & cover boards along with the hull side. I'm going with a dark navy w/ white boot and red bottom paint. I will be changing the seats to a dark red. Lettering will be gold leaf with a red border. I hope to paint in the next couple of weeks. Stay tuned.
Nick

[troubledwaters]

Well, Just before It was going into the spray booth I decided to change the color to black. I think it really going to look great against the mahogany deck. I still plan on a white boot stripe and red bottom.Still varnishing the coming boards and polishing the cutwater and transom bands.

Can't wait to see it all back togather!

Nick

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Nick,
What a great work of art - :yes:. You should be proud of how it is turning out. Bill

[Ghost]

I think the next picture post is going to be spectacular...

[troubledwaters]

OK, this is the last post till I finish it!!!!!

[cutwater]

I think the next picture post is going to be spectacular...

Nailed it :wink: That is incredible! Can't wait to see the finished product...

[DickB]

Amazing project! Thanks for posting. Looking forward to seeing more.

[gcarter]

Nick, first I'd like to say you've done a remarkable job on this boat.
It's definately something I would have liked to do 15-20 yeaqrs ago, but no longer.

Dr. D.,
I'll have to strongly object to your statement that fiberglass hull damage can't be restored into "as new" condition.
It easily can when corners aren't cut and the proper materials are used.
Interiors may have to be removed, drive trains removed, or bulkheads removed.
An example, a friend had a 33' sloop out of the water in Crystal River, FL when the '93(?) "No Name" storm came across Florida and up the East Coast. The boat floated off the jack stands and blocking on the storm surge and came to rest on top of these items, on its stbd side, when the surge went down. It ended up w/a number of holes on the order of 12"-20" in diameter through the hull, the turn of the bilge at midships was crushed where the weight of the boat was sitting on an internal bulkhead, the 3" diameter rudder stock bent, and the rudder skeg ripped out by its bolts through the hull.
I was able to, in pretty short order, make repairs on all this damage using only standard practices and glass materials. This boat has gone on to sail thousands of miles and is still being used, although by a new owner.
BTW, these repairs were a lot easier to accomplish in glass than a wooden boat would have been.

[Ghost]

Nick, she's gorgeous! Great work. -Mike

[rustnrot]

Nick--awesome! I remember our chatting a couple of times on this project last winter.

It may be stated here and I probably forgot, but what did you end up using for the deck seams?

--Tom

[troubledwaters]

:nilly:

Well, I finally finished the boat!!!!!!!! Some tweaking to do but, been able to run it and enter it into a couple of classic boat shows. My first show in Madison WI it won best of show. The second show in Pewaukee WI it won best contemporary. I couldn't ask for anything more! It has been a lot of fun both building and now being able to display it. I want to thank everyone that posted info and comments on this thread. I have read a lot of post throughout this site and received a lot of great advise. I hope you enjoy the pictures and short video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4GMLahamkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4GMLahamkw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGlwiUN5HMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGlwiUN5HMA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rXBbhHfxWY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rXBbhHfxWY)

Thanks Again,
Nick

Tom,
I used poly seamseal as you suggested;It worked great!

[CHACHI]

OK, how much for one and where does the line start?

Excellent job.

Ken

[Marlin275]

Looks Great!

What kind of performance are you getting?
Top speed
Cruise

Can you drive through that porpoising by adding speed?

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Stunning and gorgeous! Bill

[rustnrot]

I'll reiterate what I said before earlier in this thread:


Your porpoise does not look bad. On one of the Gar Wood speedster replicas I built it porpoised so bad getting two people to ride up front leaning forward would not stop it.

Putting two wedges at the trailing edge of the transom (one each side about 3/4 way out to chine) about 4 inches long, 1/8" thick going to 1/16" thick at the front of each wedge stopped it. That's ALL it took! Mine were made of aluminum I glued to the fiberglass with 5200 and sanded them down till I got what I wanted.

I started with two aluminum torque tabs from TH marine and sanded down from there. I did not screw to the hull, just 5200'd and was fine.

[rustnrot]

:happy_bi::happy_bi::happy_bi:

And BTW, Happy Zeroth Birthday to the Boat!!

[Sweet Cheekz]

Dr. D.,
I'll have to strongly object to your statement that fiberglass hull damage can't be restored into "as new" condition.
It easily can when corners aren't cut and the proper materials are used.
Interiors may have to be removed, drive trains removed, or bulkheads removed.
.

Agreed
Skater does it to boats all the time
Parnell