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zelatore
04-01-2008, 02:05 PM
....drives a Toyota. And thinks it is a 'good car'.

I recently had a Toyota exeperince. Here's the report:

I took the BMW ('08 335i) in for service Friday morning. They had to replace an O2 sensor, replace a circ pump in the fuel system (emissions stuff), upload a new program for the stereo, etc.

No problem, they’ve got me set up for a 3-series loaner. But when I give them my insurance info, they say no can do – they don’t take Progressive or Drive (gee, and I’ve got 5 vehicles insured through them). If Michele had been along it would have been good since she’s with somebody else. But they’ve been burned by Progressive too much so they say they’ll set me up with Enterprise who’s just across the street. Fine – it’s just a day anyway.

So I get to Enterprise and I see a couple Jettas and some Nissans on the lot. The girl at the desk actually asked me what I wanted and I say ‘oh I’m not that picky, one of those Jettas would be fine’. Well, the Jettas are booked, so she ‘does me a favor’ and puts me in a bigger car that I didn’t actually see from the office. We walk around the corner and there it is: a Camery.

Since I had just told the girl I wasn’t that particular, and she already had all the paperwork done, I didn’t say anything. But really … a Camery? Have you guys driven one of these things?

It’s like the Playschool ‘babies first car’. Or maybe that’s ‘gramma’s last car’. The dials and gauges are all huge and oversize and simplistic. It looks like you should start it with one of those big plastic fisher price keys.

And the thing’s BIG. It feels like you’re swimming around in it. Not exactly an ‘intimate driving experience’.

Now, it’s not exactly dangerously slow. Yeah, it’s slow, but not that bad. The transmission is the worst part. It upshifts so fast it’s scary, then it can’t maintain freeway speeds up any little hill so it constantly hunts. 3 or 4 down/up shifts are typical on a modest grade. And each downshift is very evident; accompanied by a head bob.

Plus it’s really slow to downshift with the throttle unless you floor it. So if you round a corner and want to get back up to speed you make the turn, push the gas, wait….wait…. then the down shift that jerks your head forward and back, then acceleration as it runs up to 5000 so it can get moving.

Plus I swear I’m going to break the gear shift off. It’s a tall skinny chrome lever. And the rest of the build quality isn’t exactly striking. I figured ‘hey, it’s a Toyota so they should at least have good QC’. Er, then why is the steering wheel airbag cover not centered and has huge gaps on each side? I mean come on, that’s only the one place every single driver will see/touch in the car. No reason to focus on that part, eh?

Of course, the brakes work, just not well. I keep running up closer to people than I mean to since it’s not exactly a strong braker and the feel is, well, non-existent. I did go for the ABS lock-up at one point just to see what happened – still not exactly stopping fast, and a lot of pedal kick.

The steering is a winner too. Numb and over boosted would be an accurate description. And since it’s a FWD car, it yanks at the wheel when you turn. Nice.

I pushed it hard around a decreasing radius onramp to see what would happen. It understeered hugely of course, but the scarry part was how much the steering jumped and banged around in my hands. It was a real fight to hold it in one position.

Now I understand that a lot of people think a 'soft' ride is a good thing, but this thing almost makes you sea sick. It rocks back on any acceleration; nose dives under the smallest braking; and generally bobs and weaves around like a drunk on a 3 day bender. But I bet the air bags work well...safety is important and all. Of course, not important enough that they might design a suspension system that lets you avoid an accident in the first place!

And it doesn’t even seem to get any better mileage than the BMW. Maybe even worse.

So, this is what the average Joe thinks a good car is supposed to be like?

I’ve never been so happy to be not-average in my life! This thing SUCKS!!!!! I would describe it as the worst car I’ve driven in years!! And that includes the other rentals I’ve had recently like a PT cruiser, a Dodge Magnum and 300C, a Ford Edge (acutally much better than expected), and a Beatle.

The real catch? BMW didn’t finish the car Friday as planned. They had a computer problem with their new system and couldn’t upload the new software to the car. They finished it Monday morning, but since I’m out of town all week, I’ll be stuck with the Crap-Wagon all week. To the dealer’s credit, they didn’t bat an eye and said no problem, keep the loaner until you can get back up here. I think they know I’ll be returning it ASAP!

Plus, I swear people drive more aggressivly around me when I'm in the Camery. It's as if they look at you and figure hey, I can push that guy around. He's in a Toyota.

At least the trunk's big. Is that what people see in this thing? 'Cause I can't find any redeaming qualities here.

Just call me Mr. Average for the rest of the week....

joel3078
04-01-2008, 04:06 PM
Camry and Accord are for the most part chick cars. Lots of the Honda and Toyota vehicles got popularized (how's that for a made up word) by Women in the 90's and early 2000's. Put gas in, drive it forever with minimal maintenance, and never worry about a damn oil light coming on.

Toyota quality = hardley ever breaks down.
Honda reliability = hardley ever breaks down.

If they bought a 2008 vehicle and it was in the repair shop for more than a few hours, that would be totally unacceptable. They could no longer trust it and the relationship would be forever skittish. The car would never feel right again.

I'm sure you guys will have fun continuing this post right into the dumpster. :smash: In the mean time, I gotta go to Walmart and by me a new flamesuit.

mjw930
04-01-2008, 04:06 PM
You need to remember where Mr. and Mrs. Average are coming from. If all they know are older Impala's, Taurus', Grand Am's and Chrysler minivans the Toyota is a breath of fresh air.

I don't know a single person who has owned or spent time in a European car or newer domestic and even some Japanese brands that even give Toyota a second look when it's time to get a new ride. It's beyond me how they have become the worlds second largest car maker (or is the largest these days, I lose count)........

Like PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute".

zelatore
04-01-2008, 04:28 PM
No flames from me Joel - I bet you're right.

I can just hear Michele's mother now: you paid how much for that car and you've already got it in the shop in only 7500 miles?

Er, yeah. Of course I've also had it on the track too and plan to run it at Laguna Seca next month as well. Try that in your plain-vanilla-wrapper car and see what shakes loose. Better yet, don't.

I can remember getting into her Toyota that she thought the world of because it was 'reliable' and 'never needed service'. My first thought was 'wow! this thing is falling appart!' But since she didn't so much drive the car as sit in the driver's seat while it moved from one place to another, she never realize the brakes were awful, the shifter (this was a manual) was like a stick in a bucket, the suspension was shot, it wouldn't rev over 4500 rpm, and if you did take it beyond 4000 you couldn't change gears.

I said nothing. Best not to go there.

To her it was the definition of a great car beause she didn't require anything more than that it started in the morning.

Why can't my clients be that easy? Hey, what's a few water leaks or some corrosion; so what if the MARPA is acting up; does it really matter that those courtesy lights are out? At least it started!

zelatore
04-01-2008, 04:38 PM
You need to remember where Mr. and Mrs. Average are coming from. If all they know are older Impala's, Taurus', Grand Am's and Chrysler minivans the Toyota is a breath of fresh air.

That reminds me. A few years ago I was visiting an uncle in Kentucky who works at a small-town Chevy dealer. I asked him 'so, you guys sell anything but trucks?'. His response: 'not much, a few impallas and the occasional vette'

On the other hand, I was actually impressed with the Ford Edge I spent a couple weeks with earlier this year. Much better than I expected from a 'cross-over SUV'.

vonkamp
04-01-2008, 04:52 PM
I bought a Camery after a 3 horrible years of owning a turbo Saab 900. I bought the Consumer Reports #1 car. That Camery was a horrible drive and in my opinion downright dangerous in the rain. Bought a Silverado (one of consumer reports worst vehicles) which was great.

When my wife decided to semi-retire, we sold her 530i and bought a used 4Runner which is very nice but within 3 months I was searching craigslist for another bimmer. Found a little cabrio so life is good again! :yes:

zelatore
04-01-2008, 05:02 PM
Funny. I had a Saab 9-3 turbo and for the most part liked it. The only down side was the turbo lag and torque steer. But it was interesting, fairly quick, and hugely practical as a 4-door hatch.

As for Consumer Reports, I believe they also rated the 3-series as a poor choice. This being the car every enthusiast magazine has rated #1 for about 20 years now. Heck, for years I fought against buying a 3 because they are so common around here and I wanted to be different. But I finally had to give in. It really is the benchmark for the class.

I figure if I want a review of a washing machine or tooth paste, I'll turn to consumer reports. Anything I might actually care about - forget it!

handfulz28
04-01-2008, 05:26 PM
Funny thought....read the description of how your Toyota experience was...but don't think about it being a toyota. To me it read just like any domestic make from the last 3 decades. I wonder if "American" Toyotas are being designed/built by the original "Big 3" designers...

I don my Nomex as I type, but the Accords since '03 are a completely different driving experience. The OEM tires are spec'd for mileage/noise so they are way too hard for spirited driving (forget wet traction). But for a 4 door grocery getter, they still outperform most domestics. I will offer full disclosure and admit that I've owned & driven 5 different Accords: 2 '86s that got me through college (one carried 5 people in an auto-x fun run AND I could get it to oversteer!), a '95 coupe that I drove in my first Performance Driving School and an '03 that I commuted in to not have to drive my truck. They were all 5spd EXs (except the first '86) and I couldn't say anything bad about my experiences. My girlfriend was considering a Camry vs Accord 18mos ago...she's put 30k trouble free miles on her '06 Accord since then.

RedDog
04-01-2008, 06:14 PM
one of the best cars I have had is a 2000 Accord 2 door coupe w/ V-6 vtec. I bought it used in 2002 and now my son drives it. It is now a little rough around the edges due to age and teenage use but it is a great handling car that flies if you give it the RPMs. Must have 150K on it now.

BUIZILLA
04-01-2008, 06:22 PM
the Edge is a GREAT vehicle...

the new Impala, is hands down for 20k, a steal

a MINI Clubman may just have my name on it :crossfing: can't see out the back though..

135i is a crotch rocket..

drive a Mitsu Lancer Evo lately...OMFG

same goes for the new WRX STI hatchback...

yeah, i'm shopping for an econocar driver..

leaning to a BMW diesel sedan..

zelatore
04-01-2008, 07:26 PM
Honda in general I consider a better car than Toyota. They're generally crisper and tighter. Granted, I've got limited experience with them. When Michele first moved to CA, she had a leasing company drop a Civic off at her office on a two year lease. I think she specified the color and a 5 speed; otherwise she didn't even bother to test drive the thing. I was less than thrilled by her decision, noting all the other things I could have found her for the money.

After I got out here I drove the heck out of the thing. Not too bad, but suffered the typical Honda lack of tourque. I don't know why they are so in love with ultra-high-rpm motors when most americans would prefer bottom end. Even in my bikes I prefer a strong midrange vs eaking out that last .5 hp at 15,000 rpm.

I wasn't thrilled with the Honda service. Warped brake discs? Too bad - not warranty. Twice. In two years.

As for the WRX/Evo - a lot of fun but I can't see it as a daily driver unless they've seriously worked on the massive turbo lag. The last STI I drove was stone dead under 3500 rpm, then it exploded.

135 mmmmmm...tasty. I wanted that over the 335 but they're only just getting them in stock now and I'm not a patient guy. Besides, the 4-door is really better for us and her work.

clubman - I checked one out last week and I'm about 50/50 on it. Not nearly as cool looking as the standard Mini, but certainly more functional. Haven't driven one, so I wonder how the added wheelbase will affect the handling. The standard Mini is definatly the most fun car for the money - problaby the most fun for anything short of a Boxster/Caymen money.

Although if I was looking for a cheap small car right now I'd have to look pretty hard at the Mazda Speed3. Haven't driven it, but it looks great, should be very practical as a 4 door hatch, and shows some big numbers under the hood. It looks like a winner on paper.

Now what I really want is a track day car. If I had the cash, I'd be Lotus shopping right now. mmmmmmm.....Lotus :drive:

Barry Eller
04-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Well, I'm just an old used car salesman...but I like my Chevy Silverado and Denise LOVES her Cadillac DeVille. She had a new Camery when we got together in 2000. It was, lets say, is's just an average small car. She does not want another one.
Or course she is biased, I sell Cadillacs, Buicks, Pontiacs and GMC trucks. We are also a Saab dealer. But what does she know..

JimG
04-01-2008, 08:20 PM
I've owned several Honda's. Loved 'em, but I like high-revving small motors. Own a CL500 now... magnificent car, but I wish it was as reliable as a Honda!

BTW: Does the Lotus still have a Toyota motor? I looked at a Exige, and it had a Toyota engine. I ran away! Not because it's a bad motor, but dang!:smash:

RedDog
04-02-2008, 07:38 AM
Beamer diesel gets better mileage than a Toyota Prius hybrid?

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece

mjw930
04-02-2008, 08:11 AM
Beamer diesel gets better mileage than a Toyota Prius hybrid?

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece



Yes, they do. For whatever reason the US has stacked the deck against diesel cars. In Europe they are close to 50% of all new car sales and the new motors are every bit as good as the gas motors they replace in all but the most high performance applications.

Of course diesel is cheaper then "petrol" on Europe so that, combined with the higher economy makes it a no brainer. Here we have $4.00 / gallon diesel and huge premiums for the initial purchase. :smash::smash::smash:

You can certainly tell who's economies are owned by the oil companies and who's aren't............

zelatore
04-02-2008, 09:19 AM
Does the Lotus still have a Toyota motor? I looked at a Exige, and it had a Toyota engine. I ran away! Not because it's a bad motor, but dang!:smash:

Yes, they are still using the Toyota motor. Different cams, intake, exaust, computers, gearbox, etc....oh, and a supercharger. But the basics are still Toyota.

I don't much care for that thought either, but it's not like Lotus has(had) a lot of development money to put into designing a new motor. They're a little better off now, but they'll never exactly be mass-market.

Now for a street car, I would look elseware. But for a track day car that you can still drive on the street; it's hard to beat an Exige.

The funny thing - I want more power in my street cars than for the track. Light weight and good handling are my first priorities for the track, while big torque and good power are more important to me on the street. That's probably why I've never been a big fan of Honda/Acura.

mjw930
04-02-2008, 10:03 AM
The funny thing - I want more power in my street cars than for the track. Light weight and good handling are my first priorities for the track, while big torque and good power are more important to me on the street. That's probably why I've never been a big fan of Honda/Acura.

Not funny at all, I agree 100%. I have much more fun on the track in a well sorted older 911 stripped for track use than with a more modern, heavier, more powerful car. However, on the street I love my monster V8's and turbo'd flat sixes :D

roadtrip se
04-04-2008, 08:18 AM
on the highway.

Ran up behind a new Smart, should be "Not-so-Smart", yesterday in the rain. I had just recovered from almost being run into the ditch by a semi and I couldn't help but wonder how the Smart would have done in such an interaction.

I shake my head every time I pass an Aevo/Fit/Geo/Rio/name your poision. All I can figure is people are looking for a transportation appliance. The Camry/Accord fit into the appliance category, because there are much more inspiring cars to drive in their class like the Mazda 6 and the Ford Fusion SE to name two examples.

Then there is the Prius, the look-at-me-I'm-environmentally-friendly-and-pius-for-it-as-I-roll-down-the-road-in-a-vehicle-that-eats-up more-precious-resources-to-build-and-own-than-an-H2. People will buy anything!

zelatore
04-04-2008, 09:44 AM
Then there is the Prius, the look-at-me-I'm-environmentally-friendly-and-pius-for-it-as-I-roll-down-the-road-in-a-vehicle-that-eats-up more-precious-resources-to-build-and-own-than-an-H2. People will buy anything!

Oh do I ever hear you on that one!

My commute home is about 70 miles from Oakland to Walnut Grove, CA. That takes me near Berkeley and on out through Walnut Creek, Pittsburgh, then Antioch. Last year I was seeing so many Prius on the road I started counting how many I would pass every Friday on the run home. I usually only counted the first 35 miles since after that I was on 2 lane rural levee roads and you don't often see a Prius in the country.

My best tally was over 20. Keep in mind, that doesn't include cars coming toward me, that's only the ones I overtook while on my bike. And although I'd be stereotyping to say all the drivers were self-righteous greenie jerks, I couldn't help but think they while they gave me that disdainful look like I’m some sort of evil blight as I lane-split by their stuck-in-traffic a$$es.

Every time I pass one on my Triumph I want to lean over and say 'hey, if you wanted a green vehicle why didn't you get a bike?'

As for the Smart, I've only seen a few of them on the streets. And I don't think anybody would want one for a freeway trip. But for getting 2 people and some stuff around a major city like San Fran, LA, NY, etc I can see the advantages.

mjw930
04-04-2008, 09:50 AM
Actually, the Smart car is amazingly sturdy. The car is designed around a cage, similar to a full role cage in a race car.

Back when they introduced the cars in Europe, before MB bought them, they publicized crash test footage as well as took the "crashed" cars around to car shows to demonstrate the safety built into them.

Now the question, would I own one....... I would if I lived and worked in Manhattan or other large city because I've seen their value in places like London, Frankfurt, Paris and Amsterdam.

Heck, you can park 3 of them in the space on SUV takes up. Their length is less than an H2's width so you park them nose out, like a motorcycle. European cities have Smart only parking and traffic lanes.

As for the Prius (and all other hybrids) I agree with our assessment 100%. It's a feel good purchase, not something that's any better for the planet.

zelatore
04-04-2008, 10:01 AM
I agree with you on the crash-worthieness of the Smart. Didn't Mercedes advertise it did as well in an accident as a C-class?

If I lived in the City and rarely needed to drive outside it I'd consider a Smart. However it's very unlikely that I'll every want to live that way....too many toys and I like my space/cars/bikes/boats too much. Anyway, if I did live 'urban', I'd still lean toward the Mini first. Heck, I want one of those even now!

I think Roadtrip's comment was more about how the thing would be blown all over the road by a big rig's wind blast. And that's certinly true. The best aero package in the world is only going to help so much there when you're a super-lightweight and 100,000 lbs goes by the oposite direction only a couple feet away.

And that's why they are only selling them in major cities. I don't think anybody at Smart is dumb enough to think the good people of Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Oklahoma, etc are going to buy these things for cross-state jaunts.

mjw930
04-04-2008, 10:24 AM
I agree with you on the crash-worthieness of the Smart. Didn't Mercedes advertise it did as well in an accident as a C-class?

If I lived in the City and rarely needed to drive outside it I'd consider a Smart. However it's very unlikely that I'll every want to live that way....too many toys and I like my space/cars/bikes/boats too much. Anyway, if I did live 'urban', I'd still lean toward the Mini first. Heck, I want one of those even now!

I think Roadtrip's comment was more about how the thing would be blown all over the road by a big rig's wind blast. And that's certinly true. The best aero package in the world is only going to help so much there when you're a super-lightweight and 100,000 lbs goes by the oposite direction only a couple feet away.

And that's why they are only selling them in major cities. I don't think anybody at Smart is dumb enough to think the good people of Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Oklahoma, etc are going to buy these things for cross-state jaunts.

Absolutely agree.

BTW, there is one Smart I would buy, even if I didn't live in the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Roadster

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/SR_collectors.jpg

But MB, in their infinite wisdom have stopped making it. I see a Welsh company has bought the rights and will be making it under the MG logo...... http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060720.005/smart-roadster-and-coupe-back-in-production

And now we have officially gone way off topic:hijack:

roadtrip se
04-05-2008, 01:03 PM
"The Smart Fortwo two-seat minicar received one of the lowest crash-test scores among 2008 car models for protecting passengers, according to federal test results released Thursday.

While the other tests of the Smart produced better results, the scores highlighted the high safety hurdle Smart's U.S. sales team has to climb in order to overcome American buyers' fears about driving the smallest vehicle on the road.

Smart said the results were as expected, although the company has told customers the Fortwo was designed to get four stars in testing.

The Smart, a European model developed by Daimler AG, scored four out of five stars for protecting drivers in a head-on collision under tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. But the Smart garnered only three stars in the same test for passenger protection, meaning the agency estimates passengers face a 21% to 35% chance of serious injury.

Only one other 2008 car model -- the BMW 5-Series -- has garnered fewer than four stars in front collision testing for either drivers or passengers.

The agency gave the Smart five stars for side-impact crashes, but noted that the vehicle's door popped open during the test, raising the chances of ejection during an accident. Several other vehicles have received similar warnings in side-impact tests.

Technically, NHTSA says the Smart's front crash-test scores can't be compared with any other vehicle on the market.

For its tests, the agency runs vehicles into a barrier at 35 m.p.h., which simulates a head-on crash with a model of the same size. NHTSA says the scores should not be compared across different types of vehicles -- cars vs. trucks, for example -- or between vehicles with more than a 250-pound weight difference.

The Fortwo weighs about 1,800 pounds, 500 less than the next smallest model on U.S. roads, the Toyota Yaris; the extended-cab version of Ford's F-150 pickup weighs three times more.

Many auto safety advocates have long maintained that smaller cars are less safe, but some automakers have argued in recent years that better safety technology eliminated the disparity.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, which is testing the Smart this week, has said that for vehicles of different sizes with similar frontal crash test results, "the heavier vehicle will typically offer better protection in real-world crashes."

Safety has been a serious question for the Smart, which was designed for European roads where smaller vehicles predominate. The company has used cutaways of the vehicle in its dealerships to highlight the Fortwo's safety features, including a reinforced passenger cell and air bag systems.

Smart executives had said the Fortwo was designed to get four stars in NHTSA's testing, and it received four out of five stars in European crash tests, which are similar to those run by the IIHS.

Ken Kettenbeil, a spokesman for Bloomfield Hills-based distributor Smart USA, said the NHTSA test "is consistent with the expectations we had for the car, and the results we had in Europe."

Contact JUSTIN HYDE at 202-906-8204 or jhyde@freepress.com.


I was referencing the roadability AND the crash worthiness of these things. Who do you want to believe, Daimler Marketing or the NHTSA? They could carve these things out of a solid piece of titanium ingot, but until we are all driving something in this size range, I'll have to pass.

zelatore
04-05-2008, 06:43 PM
In the spirit of D. Adams-

Are you suggesting that the Smart is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a safe car?

OK, now that I got that out of the way...

It's hard to argue that in a Hummer vs Smart head-on, the Smart driver is in trouble.

But I think your final sentance above is telling. "...until we are all driving something in this size range..." Americans in general have an infatuation with 'bigger is better'. This helps explain why so many people are tooling around in huge SUVs when they'd really be better served by a minivan or sedan.

(yes, yes, some people actually use the towing or off-road capacity of an SUV, but let's face it - not many!)

It's something of a self-defeating situation. Little old lady Jenkins down the road just doesn't feel safe and can't see around the traffic when she drives a 'small' sedan (say an Impalla) so she gets an SUV. Oops, now she's part of the problem, meaning that the next guy in line now feels like his sedan is too small and he too 'needs' and SUV. And on and on and on.

So how do we convince people that they don't need 6000 lbs of 4x4 SUV to haul their wife and darling baby and 3 bags of groceries back from Safeway?

Obviously, the Smart is not the answer for everybody. If you live in a major metropolitan area, it could be an answer. If you live in a rural area, not likely.

But if more people would downsize a little, maybe we could reverse the trend. And maybe, just maybe, more average Joes out there would start to realize once again that driving can be fun if you are at the wheel of something slightly more responsive than the average apartment building.

Back to that Hummer vs Smart head-on collision. As I've noted, the Smart is never likely to be a big seller in the US. But does that mean we all should be driving a Hummer (or Escalade or other huge SUV)? How about we substitute a nice sedan, say an A4 quattro (to preserve the 4wd and luxury features)? Now maybe instead of just bracing for impact when the fool in his Hummer crosses the center line and heads right for you, you might actually be able to take some evasive action and avoid the accident all together.

Oh wait, this won't work. I forgot we were talking about average American drivers. The same people who can't even figure out how to get out of the left lane when a faster vehicle approaches from behind. Maybe we should just give up and hope the government can mandate enough safety features into our cars to protect us from ourselves.

mjw930
04-05-2008, 08:05 PM
I ride a motorcycle in traffic, on the freeway and at speeds that should get me put in jail.

A Smart would be a step up in protection :cool:

Besides, if I were in an Exige or a Mini would I fair any better against a 6000 lb SUV? I doubt it.

zelatore
04-05-2008, 09:05 PM
I too ride. Mostly a Speed Triple. And out here, lane splitting is legal - and a lot safer than any non-rider would ever think. :eek!:

And while most non-riders would think I was taking huge chances, either by virtue of simply being on a bike, or by the fact that I (ahem) occasionally exceed the speed limit and lane split constantly, I do wear full protective gear all the time and seldom find myself at any great risk.

Yeah, I've been hit by a cager once. And yes, the damage was worse than if I'd been in a big car/truck. But I'm not about to trade riding, and getting home an hour earlier in traffic, for driving. At least not when I don't have to carry a big load or other people.

In fact, I regularly try to convince others to ride and to see bikes on the road as a good thing. Just think, I tell them, you should be thankful for every bike that lane-splits past you while you're sitting in traffic. That's one less car sitting still, causing a back-up, using and driving up the cost of fuel, and causing wear and tear on the highway infrastructure.

Wow. Maybe we should move this to the OT thread...I've now gone from how the average car is really poor to safety of small cars to why more people should support motorcycles. :doh: