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View Full Version : To bottom Paint or Not to Bottom Paint



Ranman
03-17-2008, 04:36 PM
Boat is a 2004 27' Formula Performance Cruiser. It has no bottom paint and the bottom is near perfect. Boating season is from May 15th thru October 15th in Great Lakes fresh water. The boat will spend the summer season moored in a slip. Last year at haulout, the bottom was powerwashed then acid washed and it looks perfect again.

What would you do for this season and what is your rationale?

hardcrab
03-17-2008, 04:48 PM
The water here in the Chesapeake Bay is brackish. If you left the boat in the water more than two weeks without powerwashing, well, lets just say you wouldn't forget again.
God forbid any barnacles develop :doh:

mjw930
03-17-2008, 05:32 PM
If it weathered last year with a power / acid wash then I would keep doing that until something changed that caused that to no longer work.

Remember, you can always paint the bottom, once you paint it (properly) you can never go back.

glashole
03-17-2008, 05:54 PM
By performance cruiser i am basing my opinions on this being more of a cruiser than a 272 or similar performance boat

are you worried about scum on the bottom or osmosis?

if its the scum then leave it alone and wash it regularily throughout the summer if you can get to a sandbar etc where it is easy enough to do it

There is nothing worse than a good looking boat with a terrible scum line

If it is not easily cleaned than use a bottom paint as they tend to work quite well

if it is the possibility of osmosis because of the long periods of time sitting idle in the water then paint the boat for protection

I voted for painting it :doh:

Shea

wannabe
03-17-2008, 06:50 PM
With four dollar a gal. fuel prices and the loss of speed from the lack of clean bottom I say paint it. No loss of value IMO. Blisters are also expensive.

need for speed
03-17-2008, 07:29 PM
small boats are worth less with paint!!!thats a fact. Don't do it! I/O'S are not the boat to paint!.
I had a client who had a 30ft Formula with Bottom paint and had it in the water down here.. Let's just say it sank... from the barnacles tearing the bellows.

JimG
03-17-2008, 08:19 PM
Hey Randy! Love those Formulas, I share a pier with several. They are amazing performers. I say don't paint, if you don't have to. Sounds like you got the answer, after last year's results.

Take care, and I hope you guys are doing well!

Jim & Janet

MOP
03-17-2008, 09:40 PM
Frankly I think you will regret not painting any boat that sits in the water, it is even more important if you have any Zebra mussels in your area. Green Goo grows real fast in mid summer months and will spoil your fun.

Phil

roadtrip se
03-17-2008, 10:21 PM
I say don't, unless you see evidence of damage on the boat at the raft-off.

Other alternatives would be rack storage or a lift to get her out of the stuff.

I can't think it will do anything but slow you down and hurt the resale of the boat, when you step up to the next one.

BTW, we have successfully stepped ourselves all the way up to the SS 370 as our dream LC performance cruiser. National Liquidators has two of the things right now, but we aren't quite ready yet.

Carl C
03-18-2008, 07:32 AM
it is even more important if you have any Zebra mussels in your area. Zebra Mussels? In Michigan? Nooooooooo....(BTW, I voted no)

wannabe
03-18-2008, 05:57 PM
Zebra Mussels? In Michigan? Nooooooooo....(BTW, I voted no)

Zebra mussels are in Ohio (Lake Erie) so I can't imagine them not being in Mich.

Carl C
03-18-2008, 07:00 PM
Zebra mussels are in Ohio (Lake Erie) so I can't imagine them not being in Mich.We've got oodles of 'em:garfield: Are they attaching to your boat, Randy?

BUIZILLA
03-18-2008, 07:18 PM
as soon as you paint the bottom of ANY performance boat, it loses 20% of it's value with the first brush stroke...

Ranman
03-18-2008, 08:50 PM
I say don't, unless you see evidence of damage on the boat at the raft-off.
Other alternatives would be rack storage or a lift to get her out of the stuff.
I can't think it will do anything but slow you down and hurt the resale of the boat, when you step up to the next one.
BTW, we have successfully stepped ourselves all the way up to the SS 370 as our dream LC performance cruiser. National Liquidators has two of the things right now, but we aren't quite ready yet.

I'm sure that you remember that National Liquidators is where my 27PC came from. They tend to get nice Formulas in from time to time. I've seen several "spankin" 330SS and 370 SS's listed there for <ahem> reasonable prices. :tongue:

The height from skeg to radar arch is just a wee bit too much to get her into a rack without having to rent two. Also, she's pushing the local Wiggins and the like to their limits and you just have to contend with inevitable bumps and bruises. Trust me, I looked VERY HARD at fitting her inside on a rack and it's just not happening. Plus, in a rack you then have to rent their transient wells to stay in all weekend either at the marina or elsewhere.

A lift would be nice, but it's a huge investment with a questionable return for me.

I think I'm going to leave her bare on the bottom for now. I used the boat so much last summer, she never grew a full beard and was still running over 50MPH in late August. I scrub the bottom as best I can at the local sandbar and I make sure to wipe down the drives almost every weekend in the water.

Ranman
03-18-2008, 08:53 PM
We've got oodles of 'em:garfield: Are they attaching to your boat, Randy?
No. no zebras attached, just green slime. There's a few in the lake but LSC is not totally infested yet, or at least not where we go swimming.

gero1
03-18-2008, 10:22 PM
no paint, nice ride

Morgan's Cloud
03-19-2008, 06:57 AM
as soon as you paint the bottom of ANY performance boat, it loses 20% of it's value with the first brush stroke...

++ Unless you live and boat out here , where it makes not one iota of difference ...... ++

BTW ... 5 layers of barrier coat is a bit excessive ....

And finally , with B3s its CRITICAL that the props are kept immaculate .. even moreso than the bottom . Ask me how I know :wink:

Ranman
03-19-2008, 09:35 AM
And finally , with B3s its CRITICAL that the props are kept immaculate .. even moreso than the bottom . Ask me how I know :wink:

What do you mean by this? Damage free or slime free? Regardless, they are kept clean and ding free. :wink:

Morgan's Cloud
03-19-2008, 10:40 AM
If you get ANY growth of any type you'll see an immediate difference. We have something out here , some kind of a shell growth , that resembles minute grains of sand when they first adhere and get their 'setup'.
Just a light smattering of them on both props will cost you two mph throughout the entire rpm range. And that's with the props still shiny-ish. Don't talk about anything even more significant than that !
I would guess that it's also equally important to keep the props away from the rocks , but I have'nt dinged one yet.

VetteLT193
03-19-2008, 11:44 AM
A couple of things:

If you paint, you will have to paint each year. bottom paint doesn't like sitting dry for months at a time.

Each time you acid wash the bottom, in my experience, the green crap will come back faster than the previous time. It seems to etch the bottom and give the crap more to hold onto.

we had a 34 PC and it sat on a lift, but we put it in for long periods to go to the bahamas etc. It was fine, but as stated above, the more we cleaned the faster the stuff came back the next time.

If it were me, I'd factor in the cost of painting each year and pull the boat as many times during the season for cleanings as that money will allow.... meaning, if bottom painting will cost $1000 but a pull + pressure clean costs $250. pull the boat 3 or 4 times during the season for a good cleaning and you'll be better off.

BUIZILLA
03-19-2008, 11:56 AM
Randy, a bunch of fishing people down here are using what appears to be an almost clear bottom paint on the open console boats, the name is Classic something, fast blowboat racers also use it... might be illegal at this point depending on the zinc content, local's bring it in from the Bahamas... there is also a bright white bottom paint that is a VERY close match to the original Formula gel white.

Morgan's Cloud
03-19-2008, 01:32 PM
It would be interesting to know what that 'almost clear' stuff is ....

VetteLT193
03-20-2008, 08:13 AM
did some googling on the clear stuff, found this: http://www.boatersland.com/scatt.html

I doubt it's the same stuff buiz is talking about, but may be worth it to try.

Ghost
09-14-2009, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Vette's right about the acid making the surface foul faster over time.

IF I didn't paint it, I would definitely give it one good coat of wax after cleaning in the Fall, and two good coats of wax, again over the entire bottom, before it went in in the spring.

My last boat was rack stored and used in the Chesapeake, but spent maybe 15 nights in the water. Good waxing of the bottom and waterline made it clean up easily when the time came, and allowed an absolute minimum of end-of-season FSR acid, on a few select spots. (Frankly, I think the few stains I did get were probably missed spots, and two coats of wax cuts those WAY down, even if wax on top of wa doesn't do anything, as some have said on this site.)

My expectation is that your doing the same would cut both the growth that accumulates, and also cut the amount of acid you need to bring it back after powerwashing. FWIW.

VetteLT193
09-14-2009, 12:39 PM
I have tried waxing hull bottoms with just about every wax and wax like product under the sun and every one of them was gone after the first trip.

The only thing that seems to help is a good polishing compound and a ton of elbow grease. It's a total PITA to work on hull bottoms so I never made it too far with that method either... usually just in the obvious spots like the front and the sides that you can see on the trailer.

The Hedgehog
09-14-2009, 12:57 PM
It is a cruiser and it sits in the water. You WILL get osmotic blistering over time.

You have basically two choices:

Continue doing what you are doing and wait for it to blister. Then you will have to peel the gelcoat (if you want to do it right), apply a barrier coat and then bottom paint. I guess if you really want to spend some bucks you could go back with gel and do it all over. How long will it take to blister? You may get lucky and go for years or maybe a year or two. It depends on a bunch of factors.

Or you could take a preemptive strike and barrier coat it now. Interlux makes a white paint for performance boats that go on the rack. It is pretty slick and has teflon in it. It will not really hurt the performance.

Either way you will probably end up doing some sort of bottom paint. ALL glass boats that sit in the water are prone to osmotic blistering.

The only real way to get around blistering is to use a lift and store it dry.

Ghost
09-14-2009, 02:17 PM
I have tried waxing hull bottoms with just about every wax and wax like product under the sun and every one of them was gone after the first trip.

The only thing that seems to help is a good polishing compound and a ton of elbow grease. It's a total PITA to work on hull bottoms so I never made it too far with that method either... usually just in the obvious spots like the front and the sides that you can see on the trailer.

What does it mean to be "gone after the first trip?" More specifically, I mean, how are you measuring "gone"? I am measuring by the overall, discernible difference between waxed and unwaxed areas, repeated many times, as I will outline below.

I absolutely guarantee, as a guy who waxed the bottom of the boat every year for a decade, sometimes all of it, sometimes most, that the very obvious brown staining of the gel, the stuff that FSR acid removes well, occurs intensely everywhere the bottom is not waxed, and hardly at all where it is waxed. Night and day.

My boat was a Cobalt built in '99, so whatever gel they used. My wax was 3M liquid paste wax. My boat was rack stored, and probably spent 10-20 overnights in the water per season, in Chesapeake Bay at Annapolis. Brackish water, perhaps half the salinity of the ocean.

The brown staining of the non-waxed portions of the bottom accumulated over time, not immediately. The waxed portions of the bottom remained unstained, or very slightly stained, and required only spotty use of acid to clean up a few areas about the size of a business card or smaller. The unwaxed portions required complete, heavy use of FSR on every square inch.

Hence my recommendation of waxing the bottom thoroughly, and my belief that SOMETHING was clearly different about the waxed and unwaxed areas, and that this lasted for a season with 10-20 overnights. Can't say it would make it for a continuous season of several months in the water, but I guarantee it lasts far longer than "a trip"--experience shows it consistently did so with with my gel, my wax, and my water. Maybe the heavier salt you are in does something different, but I'd expect fresh would be closer to brackish than ocean in behavior, and would tend to make the effect of the wax last longer.

FWIW,

Mike

BTW, all of this is a recommendation if you opt not to paint. If it were mine and living in the water was the only option, I think I would barrier coat and paint.

VetteLT193
09-14-2009, 03:36 PM
What does it mean to be "gone after the first trip?" More specifically, I mean, how are you measuring "gone"? I am measuring by the overall, discernible difference between waxed and unwaxed areas, repeated many times, as I will outline below.

I absolutely guarantee, as a guy who waxed the bottom of the boat every year for a decade, sometimes all of it, sometimes most, that the very obvious brown staining of the gel, the stuff that FSR acid removes well, occurs intensely everywhere the bottom is not waxed, and hardly at all where it is waxed. Night and day.

My boat was a Cobalt built in '99, so whatever gel they used. My wax was 3M liquid paste wax. My boat was rack stored, and probably spent 10-20 overnights in the water per season, in Chesapeake Bay at Annapolis. Brackish water, perhaps half the salinity of the ocean.

The brown staining of the non-waxed portions of the bottom accumulated over time, not immediately. The waxed portions of the bottom remained unstained, or very slightly stained, and required only spotty use of acid to clean up a few areas about the size of a business card or smaller. The unwaxed portions required complete, heavy use of FSR on every square inch.

Hence my recommendation of waxing the bottom thoroughly, and my belief that SOMETHING was clearly different about the waxed and unwaxed areas, and that this lasted for a season with 10-20 overnights. Can't say it would make it for a continuous season of several months in the water, but I guarantee it lasts far longer than "a trip"--experience shows it consistently did so with with my gel, my wax, and my water. Maybe the heavier salt you are in does something different, but I'd expect fresh would be closer to brackish than ocean in behavior, and would tend to make the effect of the wax last longer.

FWIW,

Mike

BTW, all of this is a recommendation if you opt not to paint. If it were mine and living in the water was the only option, I think I would barrier coat and paint.

Most waxes off the shelf will be a wax and a cleaner (i.e. light compound) in one. The compound side of things works well on bottoms. basically, it makes the surface smoother and less porous. I'm pretty positive that is the effect your saw.

The wax portion comes off, at least for me, and I tried a ton of products.

I tend to use separate wax / cleaners (i.e. multi step products) so it's easy to discern a difference in the two. I can 'tell' it comes off based on the way the water beads off of the boat. On the bottom the water won't bead. Top and sides bead city. I can see a before and after difference pre and post in the water.

Ghost
09-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Most waxes off the shelf will be a wax and a cleaner (i.e. light compound) in one. The compound side of things works well on bottoms. basically, it makes the surface smoother and less porous. I'm pretty positive that is the effect your saw.

The wax portion comes off, at least for me, and I tried a ton of products.

I tend to use separate wax / cleaners (i.e. multi step products) so it's easy to discern a difference in the two. I can 'tell' it comes off based on the way the water beads off of the boat. On the bottom the water won't bead. Top and sides bead city. I can see a before and after difference pre and post in the water.

I see what you are saying, but I'm thinking not, for this reason. The stuff I use is the 3M Marine Liquid Wax (the last few years they added Scotchguard or something, and went to the black/purple label, but for years it was just the white label with no Scotchguard.)

(http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4323&familyName=3M+Scotchgard+Marine+Liquid+Wax)

The stuff seems like it has no abrasive whatsoever. And with the surface staying showroom, I applied it with no elbow grease to speak of. Unless there was something chemically reacting (besides the wax) that made the fiberglass less porous.

They have two grades that DO have some level of abrasive, "3M Fiberglass Cleaner and Wax" and "3M Fiberglass Restorer and Wax", which always struck me as the "polishing compound" and "rubbing compound" kin of the base wax. I suppose there MAY be something to what I have seen that is the result not of the WAX part of the product, but I think the stuff I've used is pretty much a pure wax without much abrasive.

I can imagine the wax itself filling the pores and adding a coating as well, that beads. The coating might break down (loss of beading) before the other filling effects go away.

Regardless, all of that is kind of academic. The reality is that using it on the bottom of the boat had a very desireable effect in preventing/minimizing stains.

realbold
09-15-2009, 07:06 AM
Interlux makes a white paint for performance boats that go on the rack. It is pretty slick and has teflon in it. It will not really hurt the performance.

Thats what I have. VC underwater epoxy. It looks like gel but is much harder and may even help performance. Not antifouling but will protect the hull. I could not vote on this because of the options. But Hedge is right on.

The Hedgehog
09-15-2009, 07:51 AM
Thats what I have. VC underwater epoxy. It looks like gel but is much harder and may even help performance. Not antifouling but will protect the hull. I could not vote on this because of the options. But Hedge is right on.

Yep and and you can wetsand it. It is easy to blend for repairs.

Waxing is good to protect it and make for an easier clean but that will not protect from blistering.

Cuda
09-15-2009, 04:10 PM
If you get ANY growth of any type you'll see an immediate difference. We have something out here , some kind of a shell growth , that resembles minute grains of sand when they first adhere and get their 'setup'.
Just a light smattering of them on both props will cost you two mph throughout the entire rpm range. And that's with the props still shiny-ish. Don't talk about anything even more significant than that !
I would guess that it's also equally important to keep the props away from the rocks , but I have'nt dinged one yet.
We have them in Florida too. We call them barnacles. I remember with my first boat, a 23 John Almand, I had to take it off the trailer to do some trailer repairs. Three days in the water, it would barely get on a plane. I thought I'd burned the hub, but in just that short period of time, the barnacles grew a half inch long. It depends on the water temp, and how much water flows at the slip. The water was about 90 degrees, and it was at the end of a bayou that didn't have any current flowing through. I spend three days of good clean fun, with a scraper and a gallon of muriatic acid.

Morgan's Cloud
09-17-2009, 06:40 AM
:biggrin:

Oh , dont worry , I'm more familiar with barnacles than I ever will need to be ... the things I'm talking about develop into a (unknown to me as of yet) type of coral .

Ain't muriatic acid great stuff though ? lol

It bears repeating though .... Your bottom can be spotless but if you've got the tiniest bit of stuff on the B3 props you're going to see a loss of performance.

BTW I've been pleased with the performance of Petit's 'Vivid' botom paint line of late .
I believe their white is also the 'whitest' out there right now !

Cuda
09-17-2009, 07:55 AM
Muriatic acid is just a ton of fun to use overhead. :(

Morgan's Cloud
09-17-2009, 08:48 AM
Leave your gloves and your anti-asthmatic inhaler at home too for double fun :shocking:

Unfortunately , nothing else quite works as well :boggled: