Tow vehicle: 4x4?

[VetteLT193]

How much does everyone use 4x4 when pulling your boats out?

I've never had a 4x4, but have had a number of times that I wished I had it when pulling out... I currently have a 1993 Dodge Dakota and am looking at a new Avalanche. I'm thinking the new truck will be better just because of the size difference...

The 4x4 carries a hefty price tag... on the front end it's about $3k, but on the back end the gas mileage is significantly lower so I'm trying to stick with 2 wheel drive unless I get talked into 4x4.

[BlownCrewCab]

It is nice when you can just hit a button or pull a lever to get up the ramp if 2wd doesn't do it. I put my boat in where there is no ramp, just the bank where it goes down into the water. If it starts spinning on the way out I just hit the button and Viola, I'm rollin again. It is a big initial expense and does hit the fuel milage hard. If you can get lockable hubs it'll be less of a fuel milage hit since when unlocked you don't have to turn all the FWD gear but you have to get out to lock them in.

[glashole]

spending 3000 or giving my friends something to ride me about forever when they have to pull me out because my truck won't cut it

keep in mind a full size truck will be lighter in the rear end than your dakota and will spin more

[VetteLT193]

keep in mind a full size truck will be lighter in the rear end than your dakota and will spin more

Really? My Dakota is lighter than heck in the rear. My father-in-law has an Avalanche and it feels heavier in the back because the bed is shorter and has 4 doors...

I'm now leaning towards 4x4 though... any more thoughts?

[BlownCrewCab]

Whats your tongue weight like on your trailer? More tongue weight will help 2wd allot. 4WD is still better! but if your problem is too little or -0 tongue weight it's an easy fix.. and a bunch cheaper...

[mrfixxall]

How much does everyone use 4x4 when pulling your boats out?
I've never had a 4x4, but have had a number of times that I wished I had it when pulling out... I currently have a 1993 Dodge Dakota and am looking at a new Avalanche. I'm thinking the new truck will be better just because of the size difference...
The 4x4 carries a hefty price tag... on the front end it's about $3k, but on the back end the gas mileage is significantly lower so I'm trying to stick with 2 wheel drive unless I get talked into 4x4.
with the new technoglie the newer 4x4 dont hurt your mpg that much mabe 1-2 mpg unless you have all wheel drive..gm's transfercases dont turn the front axle unless you have in in fwd,you press the button on the dash which tells the encoder motor on the transfercase to lock into fwd which also tells the accuator to lock the front axle...the only thing that turns on a gm is the axles and their is no option for lock out hubs anymore on any gm truck..on my yukkon xl 2500 with a 8.1 liter i get 13 around town and ive gotton as high as 18 on the highway and it doesnt matter in my x18 is behind it or not...
my buddies avalanche gets 14 mpg pulling his boat and 16 not pulling around town,,and he gets 17 on the highway pulling his boat and 19 pulling nothing on the highway...
you wont be dissapointed..:wink:

[VetteLT193]

with the new technoglie the newer 4x4 dont hurt your mpg that much mabe 1-2 mpg unless you have all wheel drive..gm's transfercases dont turn the front axle unless you have in in fwd,you press the button on the dash which tells the encoder motor on the transfercase to lock into fwd which also tells the accuator to lock the front axle...the only thing that turns on a gm is the axles and their is no option for lock out hubs anymore on any gm truck..on my yukkon xl 2500 with a 8.1 liter i get 13 around town and ive gotton as high as 18 on the highway and it doesnt matter in my x18 is behind it or not...
my buddies avalanche gets 14 mpg pulling his boat and 16 not pulling around town,,and he gets 17 on the highway pulling his boat and 19 pulling nothing on the highway...
you wont be dissapointed..:wink:

I went back and started looking at the MPG again, and now I'm totally confused. I read in one place that you can't get the active fuel management engine with Z71, and the MPG was greatly reduced (4+ MPG less). Now I see you can get it, and it's only 1 MPG less.

Anyone a Chevy truck expert? I can't figure out all the dang options... I can't figure out why there is an option for Flex Fuel or not either, considering the engine specs are the same and it is a $0 option for Flex Fuel.

Any help is appreciated. The Chevy dealer (or I should say stealer) in town is terrible so I have to drive someplace else to buy...

[gcarter]

Something I've thought about and considered for a long time....SUV vs pickup.......The SUV is heavier in the rear, like my '02 Expedition. I've never had an issue retrieving a boat. To me it's a great compromise. For instance, Sunday night we took seven of us to dinner in great comfort, temperature was good for everyone, sound was good, it's extremely quiet. Someone speaking in the rear seat can be easily heard in the front.
Then, in about two minutes, I can lower all the seates and install a package about 4' X 8' X about 3' high.
It's a much better balanced package than a pickup.

[mrfixxall]

I went back and started looking at the MPG again, and now I'm totally confused. I read in one place that you can't get the active fuel management engine with Z71, and the MPG was greatly reduced (4+ MPG less). Now I see you can get it, and it's only 1 MPG less.
Anyone a Chevy truck expert? I can't figure out all the dang options... I can't figure out why there is an option for Flex Fuel or not either, considering the engine specs are the same and it is a $0 option for Flex Fuel.
Any help is appreciated. The Chevy dealer (or I should say stealer) in town is terrible so I have to drive someplace else to buy...

on most of the newer gm's their active fuel management engines cut out and rotates the injectors so you get better fuel milage once their no load on the engine.. i have another friend who hav a 2007 gmc sierra 1500 that swares she gets 17 mpg around town..the 4miles less per gallon aption is probably the 6.2 liter engine option.

[gcarter]

Also consider buying used, why take that big hit?

[mrfixxall]

on most of the newer gm's their active fuel management engines cut out and rotates the injectors so you get better fuel milage once their no load on the engine..i believe its only for the 5.3 liter engines. i have another friend who hav a 2007 gmc sierra 1500 that swares she gets 17 mpg around town..the 4miles less per gallon aption is probably the 6.2 liter engine ...i believe it comes with the z71off road pkg
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................:wink:

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Hey Vette, I have that '07 Corvalanche (same thing as an Avalanche) 4x4 that we talked about a few months ago. I have never used my 4x4 to pull out, only 2 wheel. I don't know my tongue weight for sure but I am pulling out 4200 lbs (dry weight) of 24' Blackwidow on a tandem axle steel trailer. Remember from that E85 thread, you will get your best mileage mixing 87 octane and E85, pulling our boat on the hwy at around 72-73, about 13mpg is what we got. without the boat and that fuel mixture, 18.3mpg. Hope this helps, I still love this truck.
BTW, for what it's worth, with my old '03 Z71 extended cab, on occasion I would have to put in in 4 wheel to pull the same boat out at the same ramps. Not all the time, but occasionally if the ramp was wet.

[VetteLT193]

Something I've thought about and considered for a long time....SUV vs pickup.......The SUV is heavier in the rear, like my '02 Expedition. I've never had an issue retrieving a boat. To me it's a great compromise. For instance, Sunday night we took seven of us to dinner in great comfort, temperature was good for everyone, sound was good, it's extremely quiet. Someone speaking in the rear seat can be easily heard in the front.
Then, in about two minutes, I can lower all the seates and install a package about 4' X 8' X about 3' high.
It's a much better balanced package than a pickup.

That is a good point, and I will look again. The Avalanche is such a useful vehicle I haven't looked at many other vehicles as of now.



on most of the newer gm's their active fuel management engines cut out and rotates the injectors so you get better fuel milage once their no load on the engine.. i have another friend who hav a 2007 gmc sierra 1500 that swares she gets 17 mpg around town..the 4miles less per gallon aption is probably the 6.2 liter engine option.

That makes sense... I must have been looking at the bigger engine:doh:


Also consider buying used, why take that big hit?

I have actually never bought a new vehicle, I don't believe in them because of the big hit... but in this case the used ones are not that much lower. for example, I found an '07 with 30+k miles (almost out of warranty) for only a couple grand less than what I can get a similar optioned brand new one for. I can't figure out why this particular truck doesn't have the same giant hit in price after the first year than others do.

[MOP]

I have to weigh in on this one! My last 3 tow vehicles have been 2 wheel with posi, all three have launched and retrieved my 22. At Blind Bay up at 1K is the steepest/gooyest ramp I have ever seen, the marina owner was willing to bet my rig could not do it Ha Ha it did it very well! The first was a Dakota V6, it worked a bit hard in the mountains so I went to a GMC sub also 2 wheel posi. My new 2 wheel Chevy sub does the job very well with the small V8. On two different occasions I pulled friends boats out of our local ramp at extreme low tides when it gets slick as Goose Shet because their 4X4´s were sure to blow the front differentials. On a true 4X4 the rear axle spins on the goo and the front hops like mad, this is not a factor on later stuff with the viscous coupling that transfers the power. To me posi with good rubber such as Michlin LXT´s can not be beat on a nasty ramp! I an 250lbs tongue weight just in case someone asks!

Phil

[roadtrip se]

I have had both on two Excursions. I would never go back to 4x2, especially after the past season of lower water levels at our home lake. It comes in darn handy all the time and not just on the ramps.

I'll stay out of the SUV versus Pickup discussion, we all have our preferences, but while you are looking why not consider a diesel package? The current Ex gets 20MPG on average and about 18 pulling the boat. AND the thing has its own area and zipcodes!

[BUIZILLA]

if your looking for GM, look in the glove box for the build sticker and make SURE it has GT5 and G80 options on the sticker... :wink: :cool: you absolutely, positively, do NOT want GU6

[VetteLT193]

if your looking for GM, look in the glove box for the build sticker and make SURE it has GT5 and G80 options on the sticker... :wink: :cool: you absolutely, positively, do NOT want GU6

That's the 3.73 W/ the locking diff right? And GU6 is the 3.4x rear? I don't think they offer that in the Avalanche anymore.


Gcarter: I looked at Tahoes and they are more $$. My wife may prefer them so I'll ask, but so far the best value seems like the Avalanche.

Any other suggestions for vehicles? I was hoping the F150 diesel would be out by now, but I don't see anything on it yet...

[BUIZILLA]

G80 = limited slip
GU6 = 3.42
GT4 = 3.73
GT5 = 4.10

[mikev]

I had the limited slip with the 3.73 gears in my last silverado and it was a stepside with the plastic fenders so really light in the rear end. I never had a problem at the boat ramps and it was a 4x2 i have a yukon xl now thats a 4x4 and never need to use 4wd accept when i was out playing in the mud ect never at a ramp.

[VetteLT193]

G80 = limited slip
GU6 = 3.42
GT4 = 3.73
GT5 = 4.10

Thanks for the detail.

How bad is the GT4/3.73? I am worried the GT5/4.10 setup will reduce gas mileage further... I'm definitely getting G80 limited slip.

[gcarter]

Gcarter: I looked at Tahoes and they are more $$. My wife may prefer them so I'll ask, but so far the best value seems like the Avalanche.
Any other suggestions for vehicles? I was hoping the F150 diesel would be out by now, but I don't see anything on it yet...
I guess everyone has their own budget. I bought my '02 Eddie Bauer Expedition at auction in '06 for less than $15,000.00, it retailed for $19,000.00. Had less than 50,000 miles. I've been EXTREMELY pleased w/it. My only compaint .....it has a 4.6 rather than the 5.3 engine. But for the price, I'm not going to complain. There's always the next time!....Speaking of the next time, an Eddie Bauer EL!!!!!!!!!

[BUIZILLA]

Thanks for the detail.
How bad is the GT4/3.73? I am worried the GT5/4.10 setup will reduce gas mileage further... GT4 with a tall 16" or 17" tire kinda bogs down the 5.3 setup, i've had both GT4 and GT5 with the 5.3 and 7.4 engine in several vehicles and I didn't notice that much difference in mileage. I'm a 4.10 man...

[VetteLT193]

I guess everyone has their own budget. I bought my '02 Eddie Bauer Expedition at auction in '06 for less than $15,000.00, it retailed for $19,000.00. Had less than 50,000 miles. I've been EXTREMELY pleased w/it. My only compaint .....it has a 4.6 rather than the 5.3 engine. But for the price, I'm not going to complain. There's always the next time!....Speaking of the next time, an Eddie Bauer EL!!!!!!!!!

That's a good deal:) I'm looking at the low $30k area for a new Avalanche with leather and a few other goodies. Tahoes seem to run $4-5k more with similar equipment.

I'm quite tired of high mileage cars, so I'm trying to get 1 vehicle with low miles and a warranty... under 20k miles for sure. Right now I think I have a 'fleet' average of 130k and they are sucking all my time up so I can't work on the boat:bonk:

[VetteLT193]

GT4 with a tall 16" or 17" tire kinda bogs down the 5.3 setup, i've had both GT4 and GT5 with the 5.3 and 7.4 engine in several vehicles and I didn't notice that much difference in mileage. I'm a 4.10 man...

I'm partial to those new 20" wheels, they look sharp... I guess I'll select 4.10 for sure then.

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming!!

[mrfixxall]

I'm partial to those new 20" wheels, they look sharp... I guess I'll select 4.10 for sure then.
Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming!!

im going back to my 92 gmc sub ,,it has a 3.73 ratio and a 7.4 engine and i get 14 mpg on the highway and 11 around town...a friend has a 94 sub with the same engine and a 4.10 gear ration and he gets 1 more mpg the i do and his seems to pull a little better on the hills so im with buiz 410 is the way to go..my yukkon xl has a 410 in it but i put 285 75 16 tires on it and it didnt seem to effect the mpg..

[Team Jefe]

but while you are looking why not consider a diesel package?

OK, Todd is one of my heros and I AM A DIESEL MAN.....but

I had a conversation with a guy at work who has a MEGA SRL 4X4 with a Hemi and we compared mileage.

He gets 13 MPG average and I get 17...basic averages not pulling or any special circumstances etc.

His fuel 87 Oct is $3.00/gal my diesel is $3.50/gal. The way I figure it he pays about $0.05/mile more than me. If you figure the premium for Diesel engines, you gotta run about 100,000 miles to make up the difference. My math is not meant to be hyper-accurate, but diesels are not looking good right now.

Of course then I drive the truck, and especially pulling the boat....Oh man, its like I have the entire power of the world at mu fingertips.

as for 4X4....there is no other way.....my reasonableness ends with the fuel thing.

and my arrogance shows: edit reason: .....

[Dr. Dan]

:drive: Well... I have bought new, I have bought gently used... my last New Vehicle is the one I still drive each day and its a 2002 Z-71 Suburban Black...fairly loaded ...it has a 5.3 with the 3.73 Rear... with the Tow Haul Mode... it tracks pretty good with even my Deisel Pals....they kick my ass on the Steep Grades... but I can cruise at 80 or more Towing the Classic on the long hauls and it hasn't embarrassed me yet. Oh did I mention it has 286,000 miles on it...I change the Oil every 3 weeks or 3000 miles or so on average. I run Good Year Forterras ...great riding and super in wet and snow... I seldom use 4 x 4 but it works flawlessly.... when I do...its hands down the Best and Most Reliable Vehicle I have ever owned...and it rides like a Bentley.

Now the Burban just got a new Little Brother... he's younger, stronger but he's gently used for low $30's .. (I will Tow with either...my plans are to Repower the Burban... ) as a used Limited Edition Truck... you could argue its practicality.... but then I own a Donzi so I threw out practical with my first wife!:smash:

I think the Harley Edition will be a pleasant diversion to my pampered existence in the Burban.... now to get me a DVD Player for the Truck.... love the Movies on a long Trek.

Doc of Random Transport :thewave::screwy:

[SilverBack]

I am with Doc and Jefe. I have a diesel dually 4x4 with 35/12.50 tires. It has a programmer and an upgraded exhaust and cold air intake and a lot of other stuff but I get a shade over 21 MPG. It has the 3.73 gears and I haven't hooked up to anything that this thing will not walk off with like it is not even there. I have a 25 foot ZX and I had a 23 foot Ragazza and you can't even tell they are behind you. I still get better than 18 MPG towing when I tow my boat at 75 - 80 mph. The great thing about diesels is that most anything you do to make them faster also gets better fuel mileage. You can easily find a 2500 4x4 diesel in your price range that is still under warranty. I think that all of the big three are supposed to have diesels in there half tons next year.


I hope that I am never without 4 wheel drive again!

[DonziFreak]

Chevy dually man here :biggrin:

Chevy's silverado dually's are amazing....we pull our race boat with it and it basicly doesn't affect the MPG...i get about 15 in city and 18-19 on highway....its great!

[Cuda]

Chevy dually man here :biggrin:

Chevy's silverado dually's are amazing....we pull our race boat with it and it basicly doesn't affect the MPG...i get about 15 in city and 18-19 on highway....its great!
I bought a brand new Chebby diesel dually in 1996. I ended up using the Lemon Law, that was my last Chebby. I'm on my sixth new Ford in a row, with nary a problem.

[Cuda]

As far a four wheel drive, I say it's like a pistol...you don't really need one, until you need one badly.

I rarely use it to pull a boat out, but I have been in the woods, where I was damn glad to have it!

[Team Jefe]

Joe has a good point. I drive 4X4 for lots of reasons that don't have anything to do with "needing" one. But I have had lots of occasions at the ramp where the rear wheels start to slip and the front tires pulling really came in handy.

Angel now uses the 4X4 every time as we come out of the water. Especially with the manual tranny it makes the initial pull much easier, with no back-slip...she just lets the clutch out, and away we go.

[BUIZILLA]

If you figure the premium for Diesel engines, you gotta run about 100,000 miles to make up the difference. My math is not meant to be hyper-accurate, but diesels are not looking good right now. Jefe, your right, if people would sit down and figure out the gas vs. diesel payback right now, they just wouldn't buy a diesel. The price spread of gas vs diesel costs is only going to get worse... recently I did an extensive comparison on payback schedules using the 6.4 Ford diesel vs a V10 as an example with a good customer, he sells F450 and F550 service trucks, he's been in the heavy equipment rental/sales business for over 30 years, he's not stupid.... the 6.4 option was $8200 at that time, including the mandatory tranny upgrade $$$, we figured it would take a tad over 215,000 miles to equal the expense over a V10 engine with gas at 3.09 and diesel at 3.59 on THAT date of comparison. The spread against diesel is worse today. Actually, the 6.4 mileage has NOT been impressive, so the payback may never be achieved at current diesel prices. A lot of diesel buyers do it for ego stroke only. You NEVER hear a performance boat or car owner that is also a diesel owner brag about going green. Then there's the resale argument, would you spend $8200 to get $4000 back?? or take a $1000 hit on your gas trade?? your now another $3000 ahead with the gas truck. That's an BIG premium/cost/penalty for a diesel vehicle at bail out time. Now, let's talk about common rail engine repair costs, a 6.0 PS injector change is way over $4,000 for the set, not including the high pressure pump and sensors. A Dmax set could be well over $5000 at the dealer level with labor. The Cummins 6.7 is about $3900 a set. I'm not going to sit here and debate facts on this, but I have about 400 invoices a month for concrete proof of current customer fuel repair costs. People are freaking out on the repair costs. it's out of control. It's going to get MUCH worse. I personally talk to between 60-80 people a day concerning fuel injection issues. My parts cost from Bosch alone is now 54% higher on average than 2 years ago, due to Euro $$$ changes. Times are a changin', and it's NOT in passenger diesel vehicle favor due to out of warranty $$$$ costs, initial buy in premium $$, and fuel price $$.

[VetteLT193]

I have done some looking at powerstroke and duramax diesels. A couple of things have killed the deal for me.

1) I can't have dually. I work at the Capitol complex in Tallahassee and I won't be able to drive a Texas limousine around these streets.

2) My wife will have a hell of a time driving even the regular 250/2500.

3) Diesel is a million dollars a gallon and climbing (yeah, I know gas is too:smash:)

4) The biggest thing I tow is my Minx

5) I sort of have the new car bug, I've never actually owned a new car in my life. I figure I gotta do it once:wink:

[DonziFreak]

Our dually is our primary tow vehicle for our race boat, but in city I use a '03 Trailblazer for both of our races boats and the donzi.....

And to chip in my $.02

Diesel is more expensive here in Florida, but for someone who travels long distances (like we do with ours) it pays off much better than gas, because, truth be told, diesel is much cheaper than gas in most of the states we drive through like Tennesse, Kentucky, and some spots in Georgia....Not to mention we get better mileage through the mountains......But if you're just planning on keeping it local and a everyday driver, maybe unleaded is the thing for you... :wink:

[handfulz28]

4) The biggest thing I tow is my Minx

5) I sort of have the new car bug, I've never actually owned a new car in my life. I figure I gotta do it once:wink:

If all you will ever tow is the Minx or perhaps bro's 22C, with a fair amount of tongue weight you'll probably never have a problem with 2wd. A half ton Avy/pickup/SUV with the 5.3L and 3.73s would be fine. I'll even go out on a limb and say the 3.42s will put a smile on your face for the mileage. It'd be a dog off the line, but you could keep it in 3rd gear, take it out of Tow/Haul, and the torque converter will lock up and drive real nice at 70mph. If you end up with a new truck with the 5 or 6 speed auto, the 3.42s probably wouldn't be noticable.

Take it from people who have bought both new and used...don't buy new if you can avoid it. Don't buy the first or second model year either when you can avoid it. Remember you are looking at asking prices, and probably from a dealer, when you see little variation between new and used prices. Check out Ebay, watch vehicles for their sale prices. The latest GM trucks/SUVs are pretty darned good and easy to work on; parts are plentiful and cheap "IF" you need them.

My preference is to buy something seasoned. Let someone else deal with taking it back for warranty work and haggling with the dealer. I'm lucky that I can fix most anything, and have a friend or two that can help.

EDIT: example of what is probably a real good value:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=021&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=310022737192&rd=1

[roadtrip se]

Buiz, you said you don't want to argue about the cost of ownership factor on diesel equipted vehicles, and I actually agree with about 90% of the case you make.

A couple of exceptions that you account for, but are bigger factors than you make them out to be:

Most people buy these things to run the wheels off of them, so many will see the cost benefit in miles and more over time in longer engine life and the heavier vehicle architecture under the vehicle.

When it does come time to trade, a gas-equiped vehicle is a slaughter when there is a diesel alternative available as an option. The spread can be 50% or more, which is more than a few thousand dollars.

While you repair these monsters for a living, not ALL of them break and historically have a better track record of durability than the gas alternative.

The mileage and range discussion can be manipulated either way, but I know when I compare the two alternatives on the EX, a V10 and the 6.0, that the economy advantage was almost 50% in favor of the diesel.

And, I just like the utility of the diesel. A cost that can't be figured up in a calculator.

And as you said, I don't intend to argue this with you or others, but there are two sides to the story here.

[BUIZILLA]

Most people buy these things to run the wheels off of them, so many will see the cost benefit in miles and more over time in longer engine life and the heavier vehicle architecture under the vehicle. a SUBSTANTIAL amount are not owned past 100,000 miles by ORIGINAL owners...

When it does come time to trade, a gas-equipped vehicle is a slaughter when there is a diesel alternative available as an option. The spread can be 50% or more, which is more than a few thousand dollars. at one time I would 100% agree, these days i'm just not seeing that..

While you repair these monsters for a living, not ALL of them break and historically have a better track record of durability than the gas alternative. I never said ALL.. and I never said they weren't durable, I stated out of warranty repair costs..

The mileage and range discussion can be manipulated either way, but I know when I compare the two alternatives on the EX, a V10 and the 6.0, that the economy advantage was almost 50% in favor of the diesel. agreed on the mileage difference, but they don't make EX's anymore so it's a mute point on TODAY'S new purchases. I have rented a few V10 4wd EX's over the years and the mileage sucked, especially the one's with 4.30 gears.. Hertz wasn't stupid, they had a TON of these things, they picked the combo with the LEAST overall $$$ initial/depreciated/cost of ownership factor, and that was gas V10 EX units... actually the latest V10 argument is interesting, there are dealers that won't stock them, and there are dealers that sell every one they can get their hands on.. i'll never drive anything to 215,000 miles to break even that's for damm sure... that would take the average person 7-10 years to do... average new car ownership is about 40-42 months right now.

:shark:

[roadtrip se]

In my best Johnny Carson, "I did not know that!" Come on Buiz, I knew you couldn't resist a good argument, but this reference, when I know you are in the diesel repair biz and you know I am in the auto biz, two minutes in the penalty box, NOW!

I use the comparison between the 6.0 and the V10 EX as an example I am completely familar with. There are similar scenarios that play out on current vehicles offered for sale. As for trade rates, the actual average time of ownership is more like 38 months, but this statistic includes car ownership. Truck ownership and trade rates are much longer. If I must, I'll go find the number.

NADA and Kelly back me up on the trade-in value differences and desirability between gas and diesels, so go take a look.
Try a 2001 EX 4X4 LTD with 80K miles in diesel and gas trims. The difference was 35%+ at retail on two fully depreciated, older units.

As for the V10 EX fleet at Hertz. I have worked with Ford and Hertz. Ford offered the EX in V10 trim real cheap to Hertz. Reason being is that Ford had to produce a certain number of V10s to fulfill supplier minumum contract levels. Nobody in their right minds would buy one at retail with the fuel economy ratings these things threw off.

Now play fair, ya hear? After all, I did say that I agree with 90% of what you said any ways!

[BUIZILLA]

:cool: :popcorn: :propeller: :biggrin.: :biggrin: :biggrin:




:shark:

[Donziweasel]

At my altitude I would never own anything but a turbo diesel in full size stuff. The gas engines really fall off a lot quicker in power at altitude. If you ever towed your Donzi over a 10,000 ft pass with a gas vs. diesel, you would own a diesel.

In the 4x4 part of it, I did see something that caught my eye. Someone said that gas mileage is pretty comparible in 2 vs 4 wheel drive. I disagree. 4 wheel drives are heavier (transfer case, another diff, etc...) and get worse milage. When running in 4 wheel, which I do most of the winter, my mileage tanks when turning another diff, somewhere are 20-25% worse mileage.

Buiz, what is the general opinion of the new Ford 6.4L? Had to work on any yet? Like em or hate em? Just considering one.

[BUIZILLA]

DW, I have really not heard of any major mechanical complaints at all. The MAIN bitch has been fuel economy issues, especially with the F450's and 4.88 gears. Pretty strong complaints from some powerful fleet operators too, enough that quite a few were remarketed fairly early in life. I know there are some quirks, but all in all, it seems to be a pretty good package to me.

Can someone esplain to me why Ford doesn't offer 4.10 or 4.30 gears in the F150 4wd lineup??? I was at a dealer last week and they had a butt load of sharp looking rigs in 4wd, BUT with 3.55 gears and 20" tires, can you say slug??

[mjw930]

DW, I have really not heard of any major mechanical complaints at all. The MAIN bitch has been fuel economy issues, especially with the F450's and 4.88 gears. Pretty strong complaints from some powerful fleet operators too, enough that quite a few were remarketed fairly early in life. I know there are some quirks, but all in all, it seems to be a pretty good package to me.

Can someone esplain to me why Ford doesn't offer 4.10 or 4.30 gears in the F150 4wd lineup??? I was at a dealer last week and they had a butt load of sharp looking rigs in 4wd, BUT with 3.55 gears and 20" tires, can you say slug??

Look at your previous paragraph for the answer........ Fuel economy ratings.

[BUIZILLA]

Look at your previous paragraph for the answer........ Fuel economy ratings. they don't put 6.4's in the F150...

[mjw930]

they don't put 6.4's in the F150...

No, but their MPG numbers they post are used by their competition. Taller gears = better highway mileage.

At least that's my hypothesis.

[SilverBack]

My wife’s vehicle is a Nissan Armada made in Mississippi. It has plenty of power and pulls the boat fine if I go to a place with a good ramp I have used it. It has air suspension in the rear and does pretty good. It still is no comparison to the truck though. The Armada gets like 16 MPG unloaded and my truck gets 21 MPG. I do pull a big flatbed with all kinds of stuff and a very large horse trailer with the truck or I might have never gotten such a big rig. When it comes to diesels a 2wd can get close to something slick and you are stuck so I would never buy a 2wd diesel. My mother in law has a 6.7L 2500 2wd and she gets 26 mpg. Buz you need to come to Mississippi to sell your diesels is what it sounds like to me. My brother had a couple of 7.3 Fords that he had for his business and he just traded them in on 6.4l Fords. He got 3k less that what he paid for them new after all this time and 90 k miles. That is not too bad. 3k for years of service and 90k miles. On top of all of that I work in the oil field and when I have to go to work out of state my wife MAKES me take the Armada half the time because the Truck is like a sports car after the mods!! It seems like you really need to mod a diesel to get the best economy out of it.

[Team Jefe]

Jim, Todd I never meant to cause a ruckus.....but I've been shopping trucks for my dad and it just seems to me the diesel option is a hard sell right now.

I do plan on keeping my truck for a while...but with me you just never know:wink:

502...we need to talk mods baby:yes:

[SilverBack]

Ok..let do it Jefe'. I would be glad to. I am offshore right now but I would be glad to help you out. Do you want to start a different thread or fire away!

[Team Jefe]

might as well do it on the "derailed" thread

[BUIZILLA]

Todd's great to debate with..... :angel: :cool:

[Cuda]

I have done some looking at powerstroke and duramax diesels. A couple of things have killed the deal for me.
1) I can't have dually. I work at the Capitol complex in Tallahassee and I won't be able to drive a Texas limousine around these streets.
2) My wife will have a hell of a time driving even the regular 250/2500.
3) Diesel is a million dollars a gallon and climbing (yeah, I know gas is too:smash:)
4) The biggest thing I tow is my Minx
5) I sort of have the new car bug, I've never actually owned a new car in my life. I figure I gotta do it once:wink:
I've towed the Minx, and the 22 C with an Explorer Sport Trac. Probably not the best, but I towed from St Pete to Deland when I moved here. Neither boat is particularly heavy. I sold my 302 Formula in December, so I don't need a Super Duty anymore. I traded my F 350 SRW diesel for a 150, 4wd, with a 4.6. I can't see paying 50 cents more a gallon, when I get almost exactly the same fuel mileage from the gas 150, as I did the diesel 350. I do miss the diesel torque when acceleration on the interstate.

[VetteLT193]

Thanks for everyones help...

So far I'm leaning towards a 2WD Avalanche with 3.73 gears and locking rear diff. My thought is that new diff should keep me out of the 4WD zone, which increases my options to keep the wife happy. (DVD player in the back for my daughter, and a sunroof for the wife).

I looked at Fords too, but a comparable MSRP seems to sell for higher on the Ford. I checked the Harley F150, got to an MSRP of the low 40's and the selling price is high 30's. With the Av I am easily getting quotes for mid 30's on a low 40k truck.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

With the Av I am easily getting quotes for mid 30's on a low 40k truck.
These things are holding their value pretty well and you're right that for what you can buy a used one for, you can buy new for not much more. Couple of suggestions if you have not done so: have the dealer do a search to see if there are any '07's left, check the rebate schedules, see if there is a demo sittin' around (you still get full warranty), and lastly do you have a family member/friend that works for GM (GM discount)? A GMS (GM executive discount) can save you a sizeable amount. Good luck.

[VetteLT193]

These things are holding their value pretty well and you're right that for what you can buy a used one for, you can buy new for not much more. Couple of suggestions if you have not done so: have the dealer do a search to see if there are any '07's left, check the rebate schedules, see if there is a demo sittin' around (you still get full warranty), and lastly do you have a family member/friend that works for GM (GM discount)? A GMS (GM executive discount) can save you a sizeable amount. Good luck.

No family members/friends associated with GM. I wish I did though:(

So far I've been offered invoice price minus $3000. I'm not sure if I can do any better than that?

[BUIZILLA]

I'm not sure if I can do any better than that?$3k under window invoice?? or dealer invoice??

[roadtrip se]

Todd's great to debate with..... :angel: :cool:

No hard feelings at all.

I like a good ole' match with the man. He knows what he is talking about, you always know where he stands, and he does have a sense of humor.

I respect that.

[VetteLT193]

$3k under window invoice?? or dealer invoice??

dealer invoice... I have invoices for the highest end models (LTZ, which is more than I want). The Sticker price on the window is 44,675. The invoice is 40,524... then subtract $3k for a total of 37,524.

I have another even higher end:
Sticker: $47,495
Invoice: $42,408
Another $3k off... means $39,408

My biggest issue is finding one that is not an LTZ. I'm fine with the LT2 package, plus the 'sun destination combo' and locking diff. That would put me in the high 30k/really low 40k sticker price range, which should mean an approx. $35k price to me... minus trade(s) if they take them and I'm hoping to be out the door at $30k

[Tony]

I bought my '01 Silverado 2500HD Duramax/Allison 3 years ago with 80k miles on it.
The injectors, a common warranty issue, had already been replaced so I thought I was good to go.

First, the oil pump wore a hole through the transfer case, and fried the internals...$1500 repair.
Admitted to be a bad design, many instances of this happening, but not enough for a recall.

Then, within a 6 month span, I had a hydraulic transmission module go bad ($550) and then the Park/Nuetral switch ($450). The GM forums all discuss the frequency of both these switches failing, but again not often enough for GM to compensate.

Also miffing me is the fact that, just about the same year I bought the diesel truck, the cost of diesel started to exceed unleaded. Up until that time gas had always been cheaper than diesel.

I keep assuring my wife that the truck is not a lemon, and that the latest repair is sure to be the last. It pulls our 34' 5th wheel like a champ, and the Donzi as well. I'm hoping for another 100k miles, but I'm also hoping that it does not continue to "nickel and dime" me.

:beer:

[BUIZILLA]

I'm thinking about trading my F250 Xcab, for a F150 or a 1500 GMC or a Tundra, must be 4wd...

I'm being VERY openminded here now...

I see a Ford ad on SAT TV this morning touting all the towing prowess of the F150 over every competitor...

I wander into the Ford store today and ask the goofy I know_absolutely_nothing_about_Fords, Donald_salessomething if he has any of these 11,000 # towing capacity F150's... he takes me out back and says sure, we have a white one..... really I say?... let's see it..... I ask if it's 4wd?... he says nope.... I ask if it's a 5.4... he says yup... I ask is it a crew cab? he says nope.. is it an Xcab, he says nope... then what the hell is it??... oh, it's supposed to be a 2wd XLT std cab, 8' bed, 5.4 w/4.10's.... now we can't find it on the lot, and mind you the TV ad showed something COMPLETELY different, so I remind him of the commercial... he says I know, your not the first to ask... sure enough in the Ford F150 brochure he promptly gets for me, on page 33, it becomes clear as mud. F150 Xcab and Crew's are only rated to 9,300# and no 4.10's on Crew's.... TV ad kinda lied?? How do you spin all 4 tires in dirt with 2wd?? I was actually disappointed... really I was..

[glashole]

[quote=VetteLT193;440382]Thanks for everyones help...

So far I'm leaning towards a 2WD Avalanche with 3.73 gears and locking rear diff. My thought is that new diff should keep me out of the 4WD zone, which increases my options to keep the wife happy. (DVD player in the back for my daughter, and a sunroof for the wife).


If you are by yourself and get the truck stuck in a boat launch, just call me and I will come down and pull you out

make sure you have a couple of movies in the truck to watch as it is a bit of a haul to get down to you :doh:

just having fun, good luck with whatever you buy

Shea

[VetteLT193]

[quote=VetteLT193;440382]Thanks for everyones help...

So far I'm leaning towards a 2WD Avalanche with 3.73 gears and locking rear diff. My thought is that new diff should keep me out of the 4WD zone, which increases my options to keep the wife happy. (DVD player in the back for my daughter, and a sunroof for the wife).


If you are by yourself and get the truck stuck in a boat launch, just call me and I will come down and pull you out

make sure you have a couple of movies in the truck to watch as it is a bit of a haul to get down to you :doh:

just having fun, good luck with whatever you buy

Shea

I hear ya. I did get enough positive 2WD feedback that I feel ok. I have to balance Wife+Daughter+boat, and be realistic as possible. I didn't hear any stories about the 2WD truck that went into the river which made me happy:) I'm still not decided overall though, so we'll see who's got the best deal and go from there!

[VetteLT193]

I really appreciate everyone's help and input. I kept looking at the avalanche and FISHIN SUCKS hooked me up with a guy that had the best price in the country. (THANK YOU again!!)

Buuuuuuut.... the price out the door on a new one is killer (40k), and used are no bargain either. I took a couple people's advice to look at some SUV's and in my searching I found offleaseonly.com . I ended up buying a 2005 Lincoln Navigator ultimate, 4X4, navigation, heated and cooled seats, etc. With tax tag and title I was out the door for $25k and still under warranty. I can't thank everyone enough for their input and help:)

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34829&stc=1&d=1205843117

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Definitely a sharp looking ride!!! Call me crazy (or Amish), but I love black vehicles! Now, how well that works in Florida, sounds like you'll be thankful for the cooled seats:yes:

tom

[VetteLT193]

Definitely a sharp looking ride!!! Call me crazy (or Amish), but I love black vehicles! Now, how well that works in Florida, sounds like you'll be thankful for the cooled seats:yes:
tom

I've never had a black vehicle. Although, It's currently black with a layer of yellow pollen on it and I've washed it 3 times since Saturday:bonk: I'm a bit anal with cleanliness of my vehicles, so I hope I don't go insane:nilly:

Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it!