MSD Ignition systems

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Okay Gearheads, can sameone out ther help me with some input and direction as I have never fooled with MSD or the like:nilly:. Does anyone have any reccomendation for our 454 KC (original 375hp, now 4??hp?)? The motor was hopped up a little bit back 6 years ago by being bored out .030 over and some internal stuff (I don't know what, the previous owner didn't have details).

I was reading in this months Powerboat mag. with Teague on Tech and he was giving advice on a MSD for a 525SC. The net results sounded good so I thought I would check with the family on the board here first:). I appreciate your help in advance:yes:,

Thanx,
tom

[mjw930]

Hands down the best ignition system for a performance motor is the MSD Pro Billet distributer and the MSD-6M-2L ignition box. If you are having any trouble with the motor loading up at partial throttle or idle or getting hesitation when you throttle up then this will help a lot.

A less expensive but very good alternative is their Ready to Run Distributor / controller combo. It's about half the price and will still give you a powerful spark and good control over the advance curve.

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/100/121/121-8560.jpg

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/100/121/121-6560.jpg

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/12183606.jpg

And don't forget the coil, I like the Blaster SS, it's more "solid state" than the traditional oil filled units.

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/1218207.jpg

Then there's the wires ;)

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/121scred.jpg

Expect to spend about $800 - $900 for the entire package or around $500 for the Ready to Run setup.

[BlownCrewCab]

If you have the cash then that MSD set up is the way to go. If your on a working mans budget you can get a Mallory Magnetic distributer- A Crane HI 6 Box- and a PS92 coil and it will perform great, It has multiple spark for 20 crankshaft degrees (under 3000 rpm) above 3000 is one nasty spark that sounds like a welder. If your so un lucky to get shocked by this, it will knock you on your butt, NO, I'm not Kidding, Your knees will forget what they are for and your whole spine will turn to jelly and you'll fall down. and it can get to you from 8 to 10 inches away, never pull a plug wire with this set up and have someone turn the key to check for spark while your in the bilge. it's nasty...and it sounds like a welder.

[ky-donzi]

I have always ran Mallory systems on my cars in the past. I currently have the mallory unlite dist. and the mallory ignition box that is equavallent to the msd 6-AL. Mallory makes quallity stuff! Never had a bit of trouble. The system is so good it will allow some crazy engine mis-tuning. Where a stock system would not ignite the mixture due to poor mixture ratios, or incorrect timming. The mallory will.

And blowncrewcab is very correct the spark will jump 6" no problem. You will pee your pants and forget your name for a few seconds!!! haha

[Barry Eller]

Hey Tom, I am using the complete MSD system, its great. Far superior to the OMC Spitfire my boat originally came with. It fires multiple sparks up to 3000 rpms, Plugs don't foul anymore at idle speeds.

Do you have the dates when you will be in LA, (lower Alabama)?

[mjw930]

Regardless what you use make sure it's marine rated. That is if you value your insurance coverage......

I tried the Crane system with the Merc distributer and we couldn't get the motor to perform correctly. Swapped out with the MSD and it ran perfect.

When you price it out for a complete system replacement these other systems aren't that much cheaper, especially when you compare the ready to run package.

Jegs pricing:

MSD:
Distributer - $417
Marine Ignition w/ Limiter - $399
Coil - $50
Wires - $75

Total = $941

Ready to Run Marine - $391
Coil - $50
Wires - $75

Total = $516

Malory Marine Distributer - $327
Crane Marine Ignition - $327
Coil - $50
Wires - $75

Total = $779

So, for a whopping $162 you can get the pieced together system. Kind of a "no brainer" for me and it has nothing to do with the "working man" budget. These are TOYS and there are some things you really shouldn't scrimp on IMHO, it ends up costing you more in the long run.

[mjw930]

I couldn't stay with the Thunderbolt, I needed to bump the rev limiter to 6000......

I would agree, if you don't need to go past 5000 RPM then stick with the Merc stuff, it works.

I've heard some others comment about fried MSD's but I've never experienced that myself.

Of all the aftermarket systems I think the MSD is the best but hey, I could be wrong (as could Teague, Zul, Sterling, Express, Eickert........)

I suppose any system is capable of failing and I suspect the Ready to Run is a more reliable system since it's a simple 1 spark arrangement with potted components.

Of course it will need an external rev limiter because that's another thing I'll never be without. If I lunch a drive I don't want it to take the motor with it and without a limiter the motor will be well into no mans land if you break a drive under heavy load.

[BlownCrewCab]

With the mallory system in my 18 I could swap 2 wires and run without the box, It Never happend, but thats one of the reasons I went that way. I Have worked on ALLOT of go fast boats with MSD's, They Kick A$$ when they work, But I Have seen allot fail. and Their distributer won't run on just a coil (I Don't think) Like a mallory. And yes, if your not wanting to go past 5500 the thunderbolt is an exellant choice (but if it fails can you swap 2 wires and make it like a car? A distributor-and a coil) But heck, just keep a spare of what ever you have, it's not like it's the most expensive part you going have a spare of, some props are allot more.

[Jamesbon]

Any marine mechanic I spoken with says to stick with the Merc. stuff. It's tried and true.

Maybe Merc. makes a Thunderbolt IV or V with a rev. limiter @ 6K.

Please feel free to call my "Ace" and ask him about it. John Smith 727 565 6100. Tell him Nate sent ya. He'll take good care of you.

Good luck with your endeavor....

[BigGrizzly]

I have used them all I have The MST on the Criterion and The Malory on the Corsican. I used to have a dual point, then a penotronics on the Corsican but swapped because I though it would be faster and better. Neither happened. While o n the Dyno we swapped back and forth with no horse power gain. However start up and idle was better with the MSD. For ease reliability nothing beats points and a condenser. BTW a rev limiter can be put on anything. The MSD has the best soft touch limiter on the market. So F-S get what you want, some break most don't under most conditions.

[MR MAGOO]

I'm done with MSD's. I've found them just plain unreliable and as far as less plug fowling from the multiple spark, if you've got your fuel system set up properly there really is no benefit or need for it.

I've come back to the tried and true Merc Thunderbolt IV (no rev limit on the T-IV) It's a very simple reliable system that is extremely easy to find parts for if needed.

Kurt

[BERTRAM BOY]

The thing that nobody has mentioned, is that MSD distibutors use bronze gears. They wear faster than cast iron and you end up with higher bronze content in your oil.

[mjw930]

The thing that nobody has mentioned, is that MSD distibutors use bronze gears. They wear faster than cast iron and you end up with higher bronze content in your oil.

They actually come both ways and your cam / Block version will determine which one you need. Your engine builder should know to switch it out if it comes with the wrong one.

When you open up the cam specs it usually says "use bronze distributer gear" if that's their requirement.


Chevrolet Distributor Gear: PN 8531, 8471 (Bronze)

[mjw930]

To quote Comp Cams data sheet:


Bronze Distributor Gears
One of the first requirements when installing a steel roller cam is the addition of a bronze distributor gear. A stock cast iron gear is not compatible with a steel camshaft.
COMP Cams® gears are machined from AMPCO-45 extruded aluminum bronze with 5% nickel added.
These gears feature a high-strength tooth design that resists wear - even when used with high pressure oil pumps. These extra-tough gears are the answer when higher mechanical properties are demanded.

[Barry Eller]

Okay Gearheads, can sameone out ther help me with some input and direction as I have never fooled with MSD or the like:nilly:. Does anyone have any reccomendation for our 454 KC (original 375hp, now 4??hp?)?

Tom can't stay with Mercury ignition, he does not have a Mercury. He has a OMC KING COBRA. He just wants to upgrade from the OMC ignition.

[ky-donzi]

typically the bronze dist gear is for billet machined camshafts and steel gear is for cast camshafts.

[glashole]

what if you were to just switch the OMC to a new 496HO :confused:

I am pretty sure that would that come with a new ignition and you wouldn't have to worry about which one to choose.

[BUIZILLA]

and Their distributer won't run on just a coil (I Don't think) ohhhhh, yes it will..

[The Hedgehog]

He CAN upgrade the OMC to a Merc..
Or a Mallory...


Yes sir. I did it on my OMC. It now works better than ever. I seem to remember someone (may have been Griz) telling me that was one of the first things I would want to do once I started my V-6 project.

[Barry Eller]

what if you were to just switch the OMC to a new 496HO :confused:

I am pretty sure that would that come with a new ignition and you wouldn't have to worry about which one to choose.


That would be cost effective...:biggrin:

[justleft]

Allot of the NASCAR teams have gone to composite
poly-carbon dist gears.

Comp Cam makes them. They wear better and create
an almost zero backlash between the cam and dist.

I haven't tried one yet and at $109 each, it may be awhile.

[VetteLT193]

Is there something wrong with the OMC system? Ignition systems always seem like such an unrewarding mod unless something isn't working right...

[Barry Eller]

Is there something wrong with the OMC system? Ignition systems always seem like such an unrewarding mod unless something isn't working right...

I'm not sure if Tom is having problems with his, mine quit and it was less expensive to replace with MSD than OMC. I am happy with my MSD so far. It is certain to fail me now that Poodle has cursed it! HaHa!:cussball::cistineb:

Don't forget to add the shift interrupter to any conversions.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

I'm not sure if Tom is having problems with his, mine quit and it was less expensive to replace with MSD than OMC.

Is there something wrong with the OMC system? Ignition systems always seem like such an unrewarding mod unless something isn't working right... Not having any problems, just looking for a little more snap. The motor has always felt a little sluggish. No fouled plusgs, no hard starts. One would probably say 'don't mess with it'. I'm an American (no offense Shea:biggrin.:) I just want a little more!

what if you were to just switch the OMC to a new 496HO :confused:
I am pretty sure that would that come with a new ignition and you wouldn't have to worry about which one to choose.
You will find out when you make Tina an honest woman that your suggestion is easier said that done:smash:. Now because Barbi likes you, maybe you can convince her that this is the right thing to do, I am always needing convincing help with her. For whatever reason, she thinks I am always full of sh!#:eek!:!
Thank you for everyones input. Now that you know Paul Harvey's '...Rest of the story', are you guys going to tell me to leave it alone or can I get some more 'umph' out of this baby? Thanx again, you guys are great,
tom

[BigGrizzly]

Big green, good memory. The V6 had an issue with them, lucky complete systems are easy and cheaper then replacement parts for the stock v6OMC unit if you can find them. However the V8 unit is much better.

[andyho]

Hi

I have two questions:

1. I have a msd ignition + boost + coils for installation, is there a point in changeing the distributor as well?
2. How much do you need to play with the timeing curves?

My guess to question number one is that the boosted sparks need to have high perfomenace from end to end to make the most of it.

I run a small block with a whipple and had issues with the engine running WOT, there was not engough spark power when running full load on the stock ignition. The added HP needs more spark.


thanks

ah

[Conquistador_del_mar]

I bring up this thread to see if anyone has a suggestion on what is the best "bulletproof" ignition system. I need to install new ignition systems on the 572s that I will be putting in the Top Gun. I was thinking about using the MSD 6M systems with their billet distributor and bronze gears (about $800 each), but I am open to suggestions. Thanks, Bill

Would this system work well? The distributor is the possible weak link since it is probably made in China (less than $400 each). http://www.ebay.com/itm/chevy-sbc-bbc-pro-billet-MSD-6al-ignition-coil-350-454-/160996770381?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222001%26algo%3DSIC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D6589865517634739390%26pid%3 D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D151002060775% 26#ht_1604wt_932

[maddad]

Bill, I read a lot about how people have problems with the MSD stuff, but I've been using the pro billet distributor and 6m2 box since I swapped to a SBC from ford eight or so years ago. I once thought I was having a problem with the box so I swapped in the old 6m2 box I had that was used with the old 351c set up and found it wasn't the box but an ignition wire problem. That old box, 16 or so years old and was once on the bottom of lake Montauk with the boat is still in there and works perfect. The newer one is on a shelf waiting for the failure everyone says is coming. The inside of the dizzy looks like hell, but I grease the weights and it works the way it should no matter what it looks like. I had one issue with the rotor hitting the cap inside and wrecking both, but since then I use a file on the leading edge of the rotor to round it off a bit and haven't had a problem. In my opinion it's a simple and solid set up that lights the motor up the instant you hit the key.

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Maddad,
Having been under water and still working is a real testamonial to the MSD box. I have just about convinced myself to get the 6ML system. My 572s have an old style huge box (5"x5"x5" or so) made by Mercruiser that fire the engines, but I don't think they have rev limiters or multiple spark for idle capabilities like the MSD system. Here is something I found online. http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/new-products-member-discounts/178665-msds-6m-2l-marine-ignition-box-built-rev-limiter.html

Thanks for your input. Bill

[MOP]

The Merc ignition is some hard to beat, many blower guys use the V6 pack for its timing. I would never swap an IV setup for after market, failure of Merc ignition is almost unheard of. We have had a few folks with after market issues Mad Dad for one bird nested an MSD distributor and many have had shift issues. As far as anyone wanting to turn 6K through an out drive that is about the best way to insure it will blow way early stay about 5k keep the jingle in your pocket, some do not realize boats run on torque not HP. A boat should be propped just a tad above max torque, let the muscle do the work the ponies do not mean as much. If you are bent on high RPM switch to an Adrive or a shaft setup.

Phil

[Conquistador_del_mar]

The Merc ignition is some hard to beat, many blower guys use the V6 pack for its timing. I would never swap an IV setup for after market, failure of Merc ignition is almost unheard of. We have had a few folks with after market issues Mad Dad for one bird nested an MSD distributor and many have had shift issues. As far as anyone wanting to turn 6K through an out drive that is about the best way to insure it will blow way early stay about 5k keep the jingle in your pocket, some do not realize boats run on torque not HP. A boat should be propped just a tad above max torque, let the muscle do the work the ponies do not mean as much. If you are bent on high RPM switch to an Adrive or a shaft setup.

Phil

Phil,
I think the setup I have is maybe that V6 pack from what my mechanic found out from an older mechanic. Do you think they came with rev limiters? I am not liking the thought of the 572s over revving and blowing if the tranny goes out or just running too fast for a few seconds like my Warlock 540 engine did. I think the 572s should hit 5400RPM at WOT. I also have to wonder if the old ignition packs will help at idle like the MSD system with the multiple spark below 3000RPM or so. Bill

[smokediver]

I went with the delco est voyager ignition when i got rid of my spitfire set up. It is all electronic and the instal was really simple. No control box required.

[BUIZILLA]

the V6 pack had a 24* timing program
I believe the 24 was stamped on the casing

there was a chart floating around with all the timing advance's the modules offered, and rpm staging strategy, but I can't find my copy right now...

[Conquistador_del_mar]

the V6 pack had a 24* timing program
I believe the 24 was stamped on the casing

there was a chart floating around with all the timing advance's the modules offered, and rpm staging strategy, but I can't find my copy right now...

Thanks Jim,
OK. That would account for the total timing advance being 24 degrees according to my mechanic. As he told me, that was very low advance so he was confused by why it was set so low. It is starting to sound like I need another setup afterall. Bill

[BUIZILLA]

Bill, that 24* number is over and above whatever initial is dialed in at idle....

10* initial + 24* in the box = 34* total..........

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Bill, that 24* number is over and above whatever initial is dialed in at idle....

10* initial + 24* in the box = 34* total..........

Jim,
I think my mechanic actually told me is was set at 26 degrees total advance. I am not very well versed in ignition systems so I don't know enough to make the best choice. Do you or anyone else have any reason to believe that a newer system would perform better than the older system I now have? If so, what system that also has a good rev limiter?

[BUIZILLA]

26* total is only 2* initial, that 572 engine is a dog and it'll run WARM.... your giving up 40-60hp minimum, per engine, by not taking it out to 34* total

[MOP]

Had to dig into the achieves! Merc IV units in the cast aluminum housing IE: old style did not have a rev limiter, the rev limiter of the day was an add on. The RL typically were only used on high perf engines not on run of the mill engines. Anyone interested in the older pack designations PM me your email addy I will shoot you off what I have. Incidentally my pack is now 28 years old and still perfect, maybe Volvo had a hand in its design/construction!

[duckhunter]

Jim,
I think my mechanic actually told me is was set at 26 degrees total advance. I am not very well versed in ignition systems so I don't know enough to make the best choice. Do you or anyone else have any reason to believe that a newer system would perform better than the older system I now have? If so, what system that also has a good rev limiter?

Bill, the TB V has a rev limiter and a knock sensor. It continuously adjusts timing based on input from the knock sensor, as well as at idle. I am going to run an HP500 module this year with 20deg of timing and a 5400 rev limiter. My old module had a 4700 or 4800 limiter and I wanted to turn up to 5k but save the motor in the event of an outdrive failure. Food for thought, I am a fan of the TB system after having it in a couple boats and comparing it to various aftermarket systems in cars. Just less headaches overall in my experience. TB V modules aren't as prolific as the TB IV, but they do pop up occasionally. Chris

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Thank you Jim, Phil, and Chris. I am having to rethink what would be best after reading quite a few negatives about the MSD 6ML boxes on OSO.

[Pat McPherson]

I've got a MSD box on my new to me Donzi's 502. Don't know if I'd buy another if it fails. I'm thinking about something simple like a DUI self contained unit.

[MDonziM]

Bill,

How are you, long time no speak. I'm confused, do you have a thunderbolt IV ignition system(s) now? I run them on my magnum engines with the v6 module and a merc coil with no issues. There is no rev limiter that I know of on the v6 module and, as I understand, they are only used with super charged applications for the advance curve.(I think its at full advance at 3000 rpm or so) Don't know why you would want to use the v6 on a NA engine. I have the MSD 6 setup on my 540 in the 22 which has worked perfect for 4yrs.

- Marshall

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Bill,

How are you, long time no speak. I'm confused, do you have a thunderbolt IV ignition system(s) now? I run them on my magnum engines with the v6 module and a merc coil with no issues. There is no rev limiter that I know of on the v6 module and, as I understand, they are only used with super charged applications for the advance curve.(I think its at full advance at 3000 rpm or so) Don't know why you would want to use the v6 on a NA engine. I have the MSD 6 setup on my 540 in the 22 which has worked perfect for 4yrs.

- Marshall

Hi Marshall,
All I really know at this time is that the setup I now have seems fairly old and large compared to today's models. It is Mercruiser PN 332-2986A22 with what appears to be a large coil in the box below the ignition box. I want to make sure I have a really good ignition system with the 572s before running them. What I now have might be great, but I really don't know and it is too old for my relatively young mechanic to have any experience with. I have heard both good and bad things about the MSD 6ML box so I am leary on trying them. Thanks for the input, Bill

[BUIZILLA]

a lot of people use the V6-24 module in NA V6 and V8 applications.... no reason not to, if my memory is correct it has the highest total degree potential, and the fastest advance curve available...

personally, I know of no failures related to these Merc modules, if there was one it was VERY rare inded

some of the modules had a lazy(er) advance map than us power geeks are used to, full advance was between 4000-5000 rpm.... and, who cruises there??? not me.. :cool:

[MR MAGOO]

I've ran the Merc TBIV with the V6 modules for years on several big block combinations with great sucess. What makes the V6 module work so well for big cam engines is its very short advance curve. (higher initial timing helps improve intake manifold vacuum, allowing a much better idle and reduce stalling)

The V6 module has 14 degrees of advance built into it. It ONLY advances the full 14 degrees when mounted to a V6 engine.

When the V6 mod is mounted on a V8 the curve is shortened to 8-10 degrees. The V6 module starts advancing at 650 rpm, so an engine that idles at 1000 rpm or so already has some advance out. When setting timing, set it at full advance, disregard initial timing. -When I ran them on my blower motors, I set the timing at 28* full advance. at 1000-1100rpm idle, initial was about 22 degrees.

I've replied to your thread on OSO (screen name there is Biggus) about my thoughts on MSD (May Soon Die) I'm a big fan of the Thunderbolt IV system, it's sooo simple, works great and if you feel you need a re-limiter, the HP500 (carb) rev limiter will connect right up.

[Pat McPherson]

I took a look at mine today. It's a car 6al box I think; it's red not blue so not the marine version. My Distributor is also MSD. Question I've got is the timing / advance controlled by the Box or the Distributor? If the box goes out can I get home or am I getting towed?

[MOP]

Merc IV pack info! I have curves somewhere :doh:have to do a little more poking.

[JayZ]

I took a look at mine today. It's a car 6al box I think; it's red not blue so not the marine version. My Distributor is also MSD. Question I've got is the timing / advance controlled by the Box or the Distributor? If the box goes out can I get home or am I getting towed?If it is a 6AL box then the timing is controlled by the distributor. At least that is the way that the ten year old unit I have works. The 6AL-2 is a different and I think that one controls advance.

[MOP]

tad more IV input, mine pack is 26 years old and still operates perfectly. The issue of fouling plugs and rough idle has been mentioned several times in this thread, I run a 383 with a 750 Holley that runs a tad rich my idle is 650. It has been pointed out a few times that I put out a puff of black went I accelerate, My idle is perfect and I do not foul plugs which I attribute to the 60,000 volt coil. I ran a Jacobs multi spark setup on my woods 4X4 I loved but it had one peculiar fault, many times the engine especially when warm would fire off when the key was turned on. I darn ran into the garage one time, I had to use the clutch every time I started it so I did not scare myself.

Phil

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Phil,
Thank you for the additional information. At this point I don't think I have the Thunderbolt system afterall. Anything I could find out about my box number calls it an ignition switch - ? The coil under the box is huge! Bill

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Here is what I took off the engines. Even though they actually work, I have decided to get new ignition systems. Are the Crane, MSD, Hy-fire, and other ignition boxes triggered by the distributor and they advance the ignition according to RPMs and set advance curves or are there still advance springs in the distributors that are typically sold as "kits" with these ignition boxes? On a side question, does anyone have a guess as to why the bronze gears are so worn? Bill

[BUIZILLA]

Buill, you can't use that bronze gear with a roller cam.... I have the correct GM number you need at work and it's also on the GMPP website

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Buill, you can't use that bronze gear with a roller cam.... I have the correct GM number you need at work and it's also on the GMPP website

Thanks Jim! Both of the bronze gears are very close to being totally eaten up - now I know why.

[BUIZILLA]

Bill...

gear # 10456413

Scoggin-Dickey should stock it

:wavey:

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Thank you Jim.