22 Classic (2+3) price check

[mjw930]

I'm looking for some guidance since I'm new to the Donzi market. I've found what looks like a nice example of a 22C but I'm thinking the price is a bit out of line.

It's an '86 supposedly fully restored but it looks to have the original motor and out drive. They want $24,500 but based on BUC and NADA it's worth no more than $15K.

http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?entityid=17758441

Suggestions, comments?

[Ranman]

I'm looking for some guidance since I'm new to the Donzi market. I've found what looks like a nice example of a 22C but I'm thinking the price is a bit out of line.
It's an '86 supposedly fully restored but it looks to have the original motor and out drive. They want $24,500 but based on BUC and NADA it's worth no more than $15K.
http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?entityid=17758441
Suggestions, comments?


Looks like a pretty nice example for it's vintage, but I agree in that I think the price is a bit agressive given the package. BUC and NADA will only get you so far, especioaly when it comes to Donzis. IMO, I would not pay more than $15-$17K for the boat shown assuming it really is as nice as it looks in the photos.

[Lenny]

That's a 22 LE (Limited Edition) one of 25 supposedly, between 1986-1987.

Still tho, seems steep, hence why we have all seen it around for a month and a half.

[BUIZILLA]

it's NOT an LE....

interesting though.... 454/Bravo, navy blue, silver stripes, RARE dash trip computer, best windshield..

looks interesting

[farmer tx]

Bravo drive was not available in 86' the engine has also been updated.

[Lenny]

it's NOT an LE....


How do you know it is Navy Blue ???

What did I miss... ? :(

[BUIZILLA]

my screen shows blue

[mjw930]

I assumed it was black but in one of the shots it looks blue so I guess I'll have to take a closer look :)

I couldn't tell if it was an updated motor and outdrive because the Bravo was introduced in 1986 but I seem to recall it didn't make it into main stream distribution until 1988 as the 7.4L Bravo 1 package. In '86 is should be a 454 MAG / Alpha package.

IMHO $15K is about tops for this boat unless they can document new power and drive with less than 100 hours on it.

I'm really between an 18 and a 22 and I know that topics been beat to death. My budget for this toy is under $20K so I can likely get a good, newer 18 with updated power for a lot less than $20K but a clean 22 with new power will push my budget.

Decisions, decisions......

[Donzi Racer]

I'm looking for some guidance since I'm new to the Donzi market. I've found what looks like a nice example of a 22C but I'm thinking the price is a bit out of line.

It's an '86 supposedly fully restored but it looks to have the original motor and out drive. They want $24,500 but based on BUC and NADA it's worth no more than $15K.

http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?entityid=17758441

Suggestions, comments?

That is one of the best looking 22's I have ever seen. Condition and color. Must have been Jim's sometime down the line. ha ha I think if it were 15 grand there would be people lining up for it. Asking price is just that, offers sometimes will surprise you. 16000 to 18500 might buy it. I think the registry helps to keep the prices realistic. Just my 2 cents. tom

[mjw930]

That is one of the best looking 22's I have ever seen. Condition and color. Must have been Jim's sometime down the line. ha ha I think if it were 15 grand there would be people lining up for it. Asking price is just that, offers sometimes will surprise you. 16000 to 18500 might buy it. I think the registry helps to keep the prices realistic. Just my 2 cents. tom

I may drive up there tomorrow or Saturday to take a closer look.

Like I said in a previous post, I can find a number of clean mid '90's 18's for less than $15K with trailers so I guess it comes down to deciding what I really want.

This is a pure toy, something to blast around the river (intercoastal) in the Daytona Beach area. The 18 would probably be more fun in the end but since the smallest boat I've ever owned was an old 23' Nova I'm having a hard time coming to grips with an 18. My last boat was a 26' Velocity with big power rigged for P class and poker runs. Low 90's boat that cruised comfortably at 60. I'm thinking I can get the same sensation of speed in an 18 @ 60 or a 22 @ 65.

I've always admired the look and performance of the Donzi classics and I truly believe the 18 can handle water that a 23' modern day cookie cutter bow rider would find challenging. Am I wrong????

[VetteLT193]

Have you been for a ride in the 18 and 22? 18 is totally different, and will be much different than your previous boats. The 22 will also be a whole lot different but not as radical of a change as the 18. With your past boats I think you'll be happier in a 22...

About the lowest I've seen any 22 go for, assuming big block and in running / half way decent condition is 15k. NADA is a joke when it comes to the value of the 22.

You may also consider a Minx... some good deals to be found on them. The Minx is like a short 22 with higher free-board

[waxman]

Good morning,
A friend of mine has an 18 and I have a 22. There is a world of difference in the boats. Stick with a 22 if you can. I think it handles the bigger water much better. As far as motors and drives mine has a 454 mag and alpha drive. An all original 87 model built in 86 and just turned 200 hours.
Don

[BUIZILLA]

trailer ???

then you have the broker involved thingy, that's another 10% bang right there..

if it's on a GOOD trailer, performs well, everything works, windshield isn't crazed, and can be bought anywhere's under 18.5k... grab it

oh yeah, change out the deck cleats for pop-ups...

[mjw930]

See now, you guys had to go do that too me..... I had pretty much decided the 18 would be a lot of fun and you all go tell me to buy a 22. (no real surprise actually considering my past boats).

Simple question: considering the Intercoastal and the St. Johns river will be the home for this boat will an 18 be something I will grow to hate? Also, considering my budget would a tired 22 really be a better deal than a fresh 18?

[Jamesbon]

If you even think you want it, go take a look at it with CASH in hand. Then make the guy the offer you're comfortable with. I'm sure if he's like the rest of the sellers in this slow market, he's ready to wheel and deal.

I know of a certain bone stock, mint cond. 1999 22 Classic w/385HP 7.4L MPI that had an asking price of 27,900 and actually sold for 20k. Forget about the asking price, CASH MONEY TALKS!!!

[yeller]

I agree with others that asking price means nothing. When I 1st saw my boat, the dealer had it way overpriced. I picked it up for 13.5k less than their original price.

I wouldn't hesitate to offer him 7~8k less than his 24.5 asking price.


Also, having owned a 16 and a 22, I'd opt for an 18, especially if your main boating is river running like myself.

[Pismo]

Looks like new interior, nice gelcoat or new paint. No Bravo in 1986 so that is newer. Get the drive and engine serial numbers and figure out exactly what they are. Offer less. Salt? Offer a lot less.

[waxman]

You might want to discuss that with some of the 22 owners who were in Tampa bay a few months back getting passed by a couple 18's...

Rats! Maybe I have been wrong all these years.
Yeah, I just asked my wife and she said I was wrong...... but, she didn't say about what.
ha

[Donzi Racer]

I may drive up there tomorrow or Saturday to take a closer look.

Like I said in a previous post, I can find a number of clean mid '90's 18's for less than $15K with trailers so I guess it comes down to deciding what I really want.

This is a pure toy, something to blast around the river (intercoastal) in the Daytona Beach area. The 18 would probably be more fun in the end but since the smallest boat I've ever owned was an old 23' Nova I'm having a hard time coming to grips with an 18. My last boat was a 26' Velocity with big power rigged for P class and poker runs. Low 90's boat that cruised comfortably at 60. I'm thinking I can get the same sensation of speed in an 18 @ 60 or a 22 @ 65.

I've always admired the look and performance of the Donzi classics and I truly believe the 18 can handle water that a 23' modern day cookie cutter bow rider would find challenging. Am I wrong????

We are from north alabama river river water & could boat comfortably 28 out of 30 days in a classic 18. We moved just south of you in the cocoa Beach fl. area and boat on the intercoastal and it ain't the same. We have had a 16 I/O & outboard, and an 18 classic down here. None of them are near enough. There is no question that you will be much better off with a 22 or a minx. We have driven 22s but have not owned one. The minx handles rough water like a dream with the higher sides. It feels like it is under powered a bit but you just about can do no wrong in it. The 22 with the big block is still frisky but handles the rough stuff better than the 18s. It is almost like night and day. Although I am still trying to understand how Jim & Lenny came across some of the roughest water I have seen down here in florida at the owners meeting in Sarasota and did not seem to have a drop of water on them & without a windshield, I might add. I think the driver had something to do with it. I think you will have a blast in the 18 but will have to check the wind and water before going out on certain days. The 22 would be betterin my opinion. We have just sold our 18 and although another 18 might be in our near future, we are going to end up with a minx before it is over with. I have also seen some nice higher hp small block 22s that may have good things said about them, especially fuel consumption. The 2 guys I have talked to about 22 small blocks love them. There seems to be a heck of a Red 22 with a hi/po small block that they say will run 65 mph that has an asking price around 16500. It may be bought for less. It looks real nice, almost as good as the blue one up in Jacksonville. I also know of a nice Minx that can be bought for around 11k in lower Alabama. We will be heading back to florida in a week or so and would be glad to take a look if anyone would like. I definitely agree with the cash in the pocket. It does amazing things sometimes. My 2 cents, Tom 256-777-0844 or mishunaire@aol.com

[yeller]

Donzi Racer obviously knows the area, so will have a better opinion than I. My suggestion of an 18 is based on where I run. The river I'm on would never get too rough even for a 16.

[jg480]

Every weekend from April to November I make a 19 mile run from my house to my cottage (one way) across Lake St Clair and up the St. Clair river in my 87 18'c. I regularly run through a 3' chop at 45-50mph with no problems. In fact my 18' Donzi rides better than the 25' fountain center console that I had a few years ago. I've never ridden in a 22'c but either way, I know you wont be disappointed in the ride quality.

[mjw930]

I took a closer look at the Black 22 this afternoon (yes, it's black, not blue).

It's in very good condition, in fact cosmetically it's a solid 8 out of 10 only getting some marks off for some of the original chrome scoops and some fading of the black on the transom. It is stored in a lift in fresh water with a full cover, there is no trailer. :(

The restoration was done in 1997. At the same time it was repowered with a 7.4L Bravo 1 setup. The boat yard was given an open check book and spent almost $50,000 of the owner's money. He is the original owner.

The boat has 395 hours on it with only 50 of those in the last 10 years on the new motor. It's serviced regularly by the local dealer and has been since it was new.

Of course it still has the original instrument package and that gives away the age of the boat. Everything seems to work but as luck would have it the batteries were left on and the trip computer drained them. Needless to say we didn't get it running but it did turn over a number of times before the batteries were sent to their grave.

I'm really torn on this one. The reality is the boat is only worth about $15K being a bristol condition 1986 model. OTOH you could consider it a 1997 boat since that's when it was completely rebuilt.

In talking to the broker (yes, I know that adds 10% to the net price but that's not my problem) it seems an offer of ~$18K might be accepted contingent on a survey and sea trial. You may ask why a survey! That's simple, it's a 20 year old boat and regardless of the care and feeding there are things like delamination, water in the transom, etc. that I need to know before I plop down my cash. It will also give the owner a real idea what it's worth since the surveyor will use BUC to determine the value and that will peg it at around $14K. It will make him feel good about getting $18K rather than thinking he's losing $7K from the asking price.

I don't know what to do, this will take some thought. Remember too that I still need to spend another $3500 on a trailer plus all the tax. If I pull the trigger on this it's a $24,000 exercise. That's A LOT of $$$$ for a 22 year old 22' boat.....

[Lenny]

Although I am still trying to understand how Jim & Lenny came across some of the roughest water I have seen down here in florida at the owners meeting in Sarasota and did not seem to have a drop of water on them & without a windshield, I might add. I think the driver had something to do with it.

Ahhhh...yep. It was impressive. I almost want to give him a "Kudos" but don't want to bolster his ego :D

...but... yes...that boy can drive...

[Lenny]

MJW, I think you found an LE. I still think that, as BLACK was not common and a nightmare for the gelcoters...so not a regular production "cheap" boat run. 86-87was their year.

Are there ANY LE (limited edition) markings anywhere? Would be in red.

If so, I would jump on it if it is as you say. :yes:

[mjw930]

MJW, I think you found an LE. I still thnk that, as BLACK was not common and a nightmare for the gel-coters...

Are there ANY LE (limited edition) markings anywhere?

If so, I would jump on it if it is as you say. :yes:

No LE markings anywhere and from what I can see on 2 spots where the paint is chipped (very small and hard to find) it's light blue under the paint. I suspect he had it done in the LE colors considering he's had the boat since new and knows about the LE.

I just can't get past a 10 year old power package for this price. If we were talking $18K with a good condition trailer then I probably would have bought it today.

I have to look at my potential resale, an '86 is an '86 regardless of the upgrades. You get about 10 cents on the dollar with upgrades unless you have something that's EXACTLY what the buyer wants.

[Lenny]

MJW, this LE 22 is $10,800 if still available...

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?p=428434#post428434

[mjw930]

Did you happen to get a HIN??

Damn, I knew I was forgetting something :bonk:

I just emailed the broker to get that info.

[Pismo]

Well a very good condition 1997 22 Classic is worth $20-25k so.....

[mjw930]

Well a very good condition 1997 22 Classic is worth $20-25k so.....

Yes, and a good condition '86 is worth between $12,500 - $15,000 hence the $18K price I've put on the boat.

[roadtrip se]

I have yet to see anybody sell a 22 Classic that was in running condition and did not need major work for $12.5K.
If you could find one, the investment of your time and energy would make up the difference.

I am aware of a recent sale of a boat of this vintage and it sold in the high teens. It did not have the big block or the bravo drive upgrades. Very nice ride and turn key.

My 2001 22 books at $37K. As for your "ten cents to the dollar for upgrades" comment, you could not touch it for anywhere near $37K. Take the apprasisal guides as what they are, "guides".

These things are not like Bajas, where you can find one on every corner at low ball prices. If you find a boat you like, my advice is to make an offer that you are comfortable with and buy it. The survey should be a confimation that you made the right decision, not a tool to beat up the seller. If I were the broker and you pulled this on me, I would kick your deposit back and wish you luck in your boat search.

Buy what you can justify, but don't worry about every dime that you spent. By the way, both the 18 and the 22 are awesome rides...

[Donzi Racer]

Ahhhh...yep. It was impressive. I almost want to give him a "Kudos" but don't want to bolster his ego :D

...but... yes...that boy can drive...


Yep, I have been driving Donzi's for 40 years, but after seeing that, I wanted to sign up for lessons. I can see the ad now! {Yes you too can drive like a PRO} And you would get to learn in a Donzi, whoops, isn't he running out of those these days? It was something though. Tom

[Donzi Racer]

I have yet to see anybody sell a 22 Classic that was in running condition and did not need major work for $12,500

I'm really torn on this one. The reality is the boat is only worth about $15K being a bristol condition 1986 model. OTOH you could consider it a 1997 boat since that's when it was completely rebuilt.

That's A LOT of $$$$ for a 22 year old 22' boat.....


I have seen a few 22's for under 14k that were in good shape. But with the extra work that has been done to this boat, it is definitely worth a big premium.


I do believe if you had the black boat surveyed, you would be surprised to see what it comes back at. It will be much higher than you think. If Bristol 1986 22 classics were $15,000, there would not be any left since a lot of the people on this registry would snatch them up quickly.

Finally this 22 year old boat ain't just any ole boat. It is a DONZI! Most all of us quit looking at books as far as value goes on a Donzi a long time ago. These boats seem to hang in there forever. When you get an older one in good shape, you can't lose too bad since they do hold their value so well. And there always seems to be a market for them. After what you reported about this black boat and the money spent on it, I think 18k is probably a steal on it. This 10 year old fresh water motor/outdrive with 50 hours on it still cost around $14,000 to replace. I mean that this boat is looking better and better, not that you will be looking at replacing them anytime soon if you take care of them. I now can see why the big asking price on this rig. If he takes 18k range somebody will get a deal. Don't worry about a trailer, just put it in dry storage and it is ready when you are. They flush the engine for you after every run also which is nice. Once again, my 2 cents.
Tom

[BUIZILLA]

Yep, I have been driving Donzi's for 40 years, but after seeing that, I wanted to sign up for lessons. I can see the ad now! {Yes you too can drive like a PRO} And you would get to learn in a Donzi, whoops, isn't he running out of those these days? It was something though. Tom aw shucks {blushing}... :cool:

[Donzi Racer]

aw shucks {blushing}... :cool:
Well Lenny, I did what you were trying not to. If you can believe it I have made the big man Blush! Jim do you have any more Donzis? Oh yea, you got one of those bow rider models. Seem to be some nice 22's out there right now. Tom

[mjw930]

I have yet to see anybody sell a 22 Classic that was in running condition and did not need major work for $12.5K.
If you could find one, the investment of your time and energy would make up the difference.

I am aware of a recent sale of a boat of this vintage and it sold in the high teens. It did not have the big block or the bravo drive upgrades. Very nice ride and turn key.

My 2001 22 books at $37K. As for your "ten cents to the dollar for upgrades" comment, you could not touch it for anywhere near $37K. Take the apprasisal guides as what they are, "guides".

These things are not like Bajas, where you can find one on every corner at low ball prices. If you find a boat you like, my advice is to make an offer that you are comfortable with and buy it. The survey should be a confimation that you made the right decision, not a tool to beat up the seller. If I were the broker and you pulled this on me, I would kick your deposit back and wish you luck in your boat search.

Buy what you can justify, but don't worry about every dime that you spent. By the way, both the 18 and the 22 are awesome rides...

I appreciate your obvious knowledge and love of the Donzi Classics but I don't agree with you. Right now there are 2 22 Classics in the Boat Trader that are much newer than yours and can be bought without negotiation for $36,000 and $38,000 respectively. I'm sure either could be had for $35K. There's an '06 repo in S. FL that can be had in the mid 40's.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/2/4/90693524.htm
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/4/0/91251540.htm

Admittedly the condition of these 2 boats is unknown and they have about $5000 less motor than you but to state that a 2001 with a book of $37,000 is tremendously undervalued doesn't reflect the current market. Of course your boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it so the discussion is moot.

I'm not sure what you mean buy doing something to the broker???? I'll make an offer, if it's accepted it will be conditional on the survey. If the survey does not uncover something like a wet transom, delamination or a cracked block then the offer price is what I'll write a check for. The price on the survey will not be used to try and get a lower price than offered BUT, if I were financing this boat the price on the survey (which is usually taken straight out of BUC) is all the bank would lend. Special or not, the value of the boat as assigned by a professional is what matters, not what anyone says on this forum.

I've bought and sold a lot of high ticket luxury items in my lifetime from offshore race boats to turbo Porsche's and regardless of what you want to believe, it's an adversarial process. It shouldn't be mean but it shouldn't be emotional either. Being armed with information regarding current sales, the value of the "restoration" and other factors means I am playing from a position of knowledge. When I make an offer I explain how I arrived at the price. The seller can take that information and do with it what they will but I do this so they know where my head is at and don't take it personal. I'm really not a bad buyer because I will ALWAYS do what I say and I don't lead anyone on. If they don't want to do business with me then that's their choice, we can both walk away clean.

Anyway, back to this boat. If the restoration would have been performed in the last 2 to 3 years then I would be more inclined to pay low 20's but considering the mechanicals are 10 years old and the boat is 22 years old $18K is the right number. If you look in the classifieds here you'll find a similar boat with A LOT newer power AND hydraulic steering, updated gauges and about 200 more HP advertised for $26K. Do the math and there's no way this boat sells close to the asking price.

[mjw930]

I have seen a few 22's for under 14k that were in good shape. But with the extra work that has been done to this boat, it is definitely worth a big premium.


I do believe if you had the black boat surveyed, you would be surprised to see what it comes back at. It will be much higher than you think. If Bristol 1986 22 classics were $15,000, there would not be any left since a lot of the people on this registry would snatch them up quickly.

Finally this 22 year old boat ain't just any ole boat. It is a DONZI! Most all of us quit looking at books as far as value goes on a Donzi a long time ago. These boats seem to hang in there forever. When you get an older one in good shape, you can't lose too bad since they do hold their value so well. And there always seems to be a market for them. After what you reported about this black boat and the money spent on it, I think 18k is probably a steal on it. This 10 year old fresh water motor/outdrive with 50 hours on it still cost around $14,000 to replace. I mean that this boat is looking better and better, not that you will be looking at replacing them anytime soon if you take care of them. I now can see why the big asking price on this rig. If he takes 18k range somebody will get a deal. Don't worry about a trailer, just put it in dry storage and it is ready when you are. They flush the engine for you after every run also which is nice. Once again, my 2 cents.
Tom

Tom,

The "extra" work is really nothing more than paint, upholstery and repower. They didn't pop the deck off, replace any stringers or rebuild any of the fiberglass, the work, aside from the repower, was cosmetic. The 7.4L repower package with Bravo 1 back in '97 was about $10K plus labor. It isn't the 454 MAG nor the MPI version, it's the cheapest big block Merc had back then. The fact that he spent $50K has a lot to do with giving a boat yard a blank check, not with the work that was done.

As for BUC values, they really do tend to track well vs. sales as that's where they get their information but get all out of shape when you start looking at custom or recently renovated boats. That's why you see some '80's vintage 22's go for $20K+ and others go for less than $15K. The problem with Donzi Classics and many other boats of this type there aren't a lot of data points and it doesn't, for the most part, include private sales. With that being said, a survey can only use data published in "guides" to assign values. With that in mind here's what BUC says about these 2 boats:

1986 22 2+3 w/300 hp in Bristol condition, $10,680
1997 22 Classic w/ 300 hp in Bristol condition, $21,600

Since this is a 10 year old restoration the best a survey could report would be the top average price for a 1997 which is $18,000. The reality is they will probably take the 2 prices above and average them to put a number on the boat which would make it $16,140.

And just so everyone knows, I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I've been doing this enthusiasts forum thing for a long time and I understand how people get emotional when the value of something they love is discussed. This is mostly an academic discussion so please don't shoot the messenger.

[Lenny]

MJW, did you ever get a hull number ???

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

[yeller]

I think 18k is a very fair price to offer, especially since it has no trailer. You're actually paying around 20k if you factor in the cost of a good used trailer....more if you go new.

When I was looking for a 22C (and I started looking 3yrs before I could afford one) the prices were all over the place, from seemingly way overpriced to way underpriced, but for the most part, they all sold. What it comes down to, is any boat is really only worth what it sells for.
BTW: That 87/97 BUC price even seems low to me. I would have been in a 22 3yrs ago if I could have found an 87 in great shape for only $10680. I did see the odd 97ish that I may have been able to get for close to $21, but it certainly wasn't the norm.

I'd be concerned about the engine/drive only having 50hrs in 10yrs. Few hours in a lot of years is often worse than a lot of hours in a few years. I'd definately (at least) do a compression/leakdown test on the motor.

[Tony]

Just got home from a week away and enjoyed reading this thread. Good to see a discussion with details regarding values, and justification for them, instead of being timid about asking prices and the condition of other people's boats.

mjw930 presents himself well and writes with good clarity. Others made solid, valid points, also well-presented. Owning a '96 22' makes this topic extra interesting to me...but since mine has a Volvo DPX package it adds an extra "skew" to the valuation process!

:beer:

[Donzi Racer]

{ Tom,

The "extra" work is really nothing more than paint, upholstery and repower. They didn't pop the deck off, replace any stringers or rebuild any of the fiberglass, the work, aside from the repower, was cosmetic. }

Mark, you are right, I thought that for $50k they would have popped the deck and done the tank and stringers. I took that into consideration when calling it a bargain at 18k. T


{The 7.4L repower package with Bravo 1 back in '97 was about $10K plus labor. It isn't the 454 MAG nor the MPI version, it's the cheapest big block Merc had back then. The fact that he spent $50K has a lot to do with giving a boat yard a blank check, not with the work that was done.}

Lets see 10k pluss labor at $95 an hour = about 14k. ha ha, and I ain't laughing, I am crying since moving to Florida as far as labor prices go. T

{As for BUC values, they really do tend to track well vs. sales as that's where they get their information but get all out of shape when you start looking at custom or recently renovated boats. That's why you see some '80's vintage 22's go for $20K+ and others go for less than $15K. The problem with Donzi Classics and many other boats of this type there aren't a lot of data points and it doesn't, for the most part, include private sales.}

The private sale route is mostly where you see Classic Donzi's changing hands, I would think from what I have seen here in the Registry. T

{With that being said, a survey can only use data published in "guides" to assign values. With that in mind here's what BUC says about these 2 boats:

1986 22 2+3 w/300 hp in Bristol condition, $10,680
1997 22 Classic w/ 300 hp in Bristol condition, $21,600}

I watch the prices, asking and selling, pretty close on the 16 to 22 foot older classics,{1966-1996} and although there have been some 22's sold in that 10 to 12k range, they would not have been close to Bristol cond. T


{Since this is a 10 year old restoration the best a survey could report would be the top average price for a 1997 which is $18,000. The reality is they will probably take the 2 prices above and average them to put a number on the boat which would make it $16,140.}

After reading your latest posts, I think you have a good handle on where you want to be. I would love for you to end up with the black one or the small block since I would be close enough to come by and see them, and maybe end up with one in the future. Good Luck, Tom

[roadtrip se]

willing to pay for it...

No, my boat is only worth what I am willing to take for it.

Very, very big difference. Contrary to what you might think, if I chose to sell my boat, someone coming to me and stating that they found two boats of newer vintage for similar prices would have NO impact on what I would take for my boat, period. And I bet I would get it. You have NO IDEA what the value of what I have sitting on the trailer in the barn is, based on a BUC guide.

This was the point that I was trying to make earlier in a much more subtle method. Each one of these things is very different and the number of sales transactions every year does not support an average of any sort. You know this or you would not be asking for ways to beat the broker up on this board.

I am in major account sales. I hunt elephants for a living. I have bought and sold several offshore boats and performance cars. I have also brokered Donzis off and on. The Donzi world is different, friend.

If this were my boat listing, I would tell you to take all of your "analysis" and shut up and make and offer.

[mjw930]

willing to pay for it...

No, my boat is only worth what I am willing to take for it.

Very, very big difference. Contrary to what you might think, if I chose to sell my boat, someone coming to me and stating that they found two boats of newer vintage for similar prices would have NO impact on what I would take for my boat, period. And I bet I would get it. You have NO IDEA what I have sitting on the trailer in the barn, based on a BUC guide.
This was the point that I was trying to make earlier in a much more subtle method. Each one of these things is very different and the number of sales transactions every year does not support an average of any sort. You know this or you would not be asking for ways to beat the broker up on this board.

I am in major account sales. I hunt elephants for a living. I have bought and sold several offshore boats and performance cars. I have also brokered Donzis off and on. The Donzi world is different, friend.

Your statments are full of bluster and wind. If this were my boat listing, I would tell you to take all of your "analysis" and shut up and make and offer.

I know I'm new here but nothing I have typed here gives you the right to be condescending. I don't know you and you don't know me so I suggest you keep your opinions about me to yourself. I never denigrated you.

We are having a discussion about what THIS particular boat is worth, I'm not sure exactly how the value of your boat came up, I'm not interested in buying your boat.


You also keep harping on the fact that I'm trying to beat up the broker, I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm simply having a discussion with people who are more knowledgeable about Donzi's resale value than I am. I'm not having this discussion with the broker. Besides, it's the weekend and even if I wanted to make an offer I can't do that until Monday.

A couple of other points. The $18K price was not something I pulled out of thin air. A couple people here mentioned that as a reasonable price AND the broker mentioned that number during our conversation as something he could take to the owner.

Like I said earlier, this discussion is really just academic, it's not meant to piss you off. If this were happening in person we would probably just order another drink and have a good laugh. :wink:

BTW, I don't recall seeing what you think this boat is worth? I would really like to know what you would pay for it.

[VetteLT193]

As price goes down, the number of buyers goes up.

There are a ton of people out there that would like to own a 22 classic. This includes people with and without money up front... The people that don't have cash up front will generally go for a cheaper boat and slowly fix it up. With that said, you can't sit back and say that a certain 22 will sell for 10k because it is going to cost X number of dollars to get it in perfect shape because there is another guy out there that just wants a running 22. He wants to have fun and slowly fix it up even though the total outlay is going to be higher than just buying a nice 22 in the mid 20k range or higher.

I searched for 2 years for a 22. The closest I got to those low numbers was a 1987 for 12k. The only thing I could really say positive about that boat is it started.

[roadtrip se]

I apologize for the tone that you perceive. People that have met me know that my bark is bigger than the bite. I hope we do get to have that drink at a rally some day, if you are successful in acquiring a boat. I fail to see where there is anything in my comments that attack you on a personal level.

MP has re-covered the primary points that I was trying to make very well, so I won't repeat it again. I tend to use sublety and humor in my responses here, as well as in most of my business dealings, but this seemed to require something a little more between the eyes.

I re-read this entire thread yesterday. While I agree with due diligence of the market, your tone does not suggest that you intend to use the data as anything more than a sledge hammer to justify a low-ball offer. This includes utilizing the survey results to make the seller more comfortable with accepting a short deal. Again, sorry if you don't like my tone, but this kind of stuff does not give me a warm and fuzzy spirit of goodwill and I simply gave you the reaction you would receieve from me, should I be the one on the receiving end of these tactics. To make a deal in most instances requires give and take. We all typically keep the sledge hammer in the tool box, when trying to make a deal. I suggest you do the same, if you really are looking to buy a boat.

I utilized my boat as an example of how absurd the guides are. Then, you called my baby ugly, by boxing it in between two irrelevant comparables. Them's fighting words... and excuse me, if I don't like it. Besides, you missed the entire point of the example. Okay, I did repeat MP just once.

Finally, go back and look at my comments again. I did offer a comparable for you to take into account as part of your offer.

[Lenny]

Well, using the BUC guides I should be able to pick up Buizillas '87 LE18 for under $7K :D



Model Year 1987 Hull Material Fiberglass
Model 2-PLUS-3 Hull Configuration Deep Vee
Length Overall 18' Draft 2' 3"
Length On Deck Beam 7'
Boat Type Runabout | Open Weight 2250 lbs.
Engine Type Inboard-Outboard
Single 270G
Mercury Marine/Mercruiser Ballast



Retail Price Range:* $5,600-$6,450

Please see the vessel condition table below, to determine how condition affects market value.


Excellent (Bristol) Above BUC Condition BUC Condition Fair Poor Restorable
Plus 15-20% Plus 10-15% No Adjustment Necessary Minus 10-20% Minus 25-50% Minus 50-80%



Like that happened ;)

I LOVE the guide :yes: it's just that if I followed it I'd be waiting till the glass dissintegrated on the hull till the price got there. :)

[VetteLT193]

Well, using the BUC guides I should be able to pick up Buizillas '87 LE18 for under $7K :D
Like that happened ;)
I LOVE the guide :yes: it's just that if I followed it I'd be waiting till the glass dissintegrated on the hull till the price got there. :)

I'm convinced that if BUC/NADA etc. doesn't get real data they just extrapolate the data based on sales of newer boats minus some depreciation factor. BUC seems really close on boats that get regularly listed and sold through that system (big sportfishing boats, motoryachts, etc.) but Donzi's of this vintage trade hands person to person most of the time, so where does the data come from???

[mjw930]

I know the guides have issues and I didn't mean to suggest that they are gospel for prices since the '80's vintage prices are absurdly low.

Let's get off this whole guide pricing thing and back to the question at hand. Based on everything I've read I could probably walk away with this boat and a new trailer for around $25K on the top end. With that in mind is this a better deal than the boat I'm talking about in THIS (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51483) thread?

[VetteLT193]

I know the guides have issues and I didn't mean to suggest that they are gospel for prices since the '80's vintage prices are absurdly low.

Let's get off this whole guide pricing thing and back to the question at hand. Based on everything I've read I could probably walk away with this boat and a new trailer for around $25K on the top end. With that in mind is this a better deal than the boat I'm talking about in THIS (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51483) thread?


I think that boat has bottom paint, and looks to have sat in salt. If those two items prove true, than the black/gray boat is better.

My opinion is the absolute best deal on a 22 I've seen in the last 6 months is the one found here: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49185

not sure if it is still for sale, but if I had the cash it would be mine.

[Donzi Racer]

I think that boat has bottom paint, and looks to have sat in salt. If those two items prove true, than the black/gray boat is better.

My opinion is the absolute best deal on a 22 I've seen in the last 6 months is the one found here: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49185

not sure if it is still for sale, but if I had the cash it would be mine.

Give that man a Gold Star! That in my oppinion is a hell of a bargain. Much better than 25k for a 22 year old one. I hate to see it in Salt water too, but you know they were made for ocean racing, and the ocean has salt in it. hmmmm? I cannot help but think the blackhawks have to go up in value one day. I guess I still keep thinking about rarity in cars though. Hard for me not to compare. I know, I know. I absolutely love anything in life that makes your eyes light up, and those Black Hawks definitely make me go bug eyed. If he is still going between Texas and Florida, he could bring it back to Florida for you. hell I am not doing much these days, I will go get it for you. Cmon Mark, look at that one! Ha ha ha ha Tom

[chappy]

I still can't believe this turn key critter is out there with fresh power for under 20k.:shocker:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51124

[roadtrip se]

I still can't believe this turn key critter is out there with fresh power for under 20k.:shocker:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51124

says it is worth less than $4,000.

Somebody should snap it up.

[VetteLT193]

Give that man a Gold Star! That in my oppinion is a hell of a bargain. Much better than 25k for a 22 year old one. I hate to see it in Salt water too, but you know they were made for ocean racing, and the ocean has salt in it. hmmmm? I cannot help but think the blackhawks have to go up in value one day. I guess I still keep thinking about rarity in cars though. Hard for me not to compare. I know, I know. I absolutely love anything in life that makes your eyes light up, and those Black Hawks definitely make me go bug eyed. If he is still going between Texas and Florida, he could bring it back to Florida for you. hell I am not doing much these days, I will go get it for you. Cmon Mark, look at that one! Ha ha ha ha Tom

I think there are positives and negatives to each. Let's compare something like My brother's '87 that was totally redone to that blackhawk at the same price... The blackhawk drive isn't made anymore, all the rigging in the boat is basically original and 10 years old. The redone '87 has much newer rigging and a Bravo drive... easy to get parts for for many many years to come.

I love to drive though... My brother's boat is so easy to drive a monkey could do it. The BH has that drivers mystique.

I think value years to come is going to be about the same for BH or non BH. I'm thinking that the rarity of the drive is going to help value, but also hurt it for fear of parts availability and people that know how to work on it.

[mjw930]

I think there are positives and negatives to each. Let's compare something like My brother's '87 that was totally redone to that blackhawk at the same price... The blackhawk drive isn't made anymore, all the rigging in the boat is basically original and 10 years old. The redone '87 has much newer rigging and a Bravo drive... easy to get parts for for many many years to come.

I love to drive though... My brother's boat is so easy to drive a monkey could do it. The BH has that drivers mystique.

I think value years to come is going to be about the same for BH or non BH. I'm thinking that the rarity of the drive is going to help value, but also hurt it for fear of parts availability and people that know how to work on it.

That's kind of my thinking as well. The BH boat most is most definitely a drivers boat but having had other "drivers" boats I'm looking for something that will be safe to let my wife drive as well as allow me to relax on the water.

The BH boats have a certain mystique that will never fade. I think many will find homes with collectors or people what have more than one boat.

Here's a short list of boat's I've owned or helped dial in:

26' (280) Velocity, 89 mph (mine)
22' Velocity, 100 mph
39' Velocity, 94 mph
33' Powerplay, 90 mph
30' Revenger RIB, 90 mph

I think I'll be able to handle a 22 Classic @ 70+ :)

[TheFees]

I like the fact that the boat is spending it's time under a canopy, but I am concerned about the 2 single bunks supporting the boat. Was any special cosideration taken for how they meet up with the hull, or is all that weight resting on 2 one inch wide slivers.
I know it is a depressing subject... :doh: Now that is corny.

[mjw930]

I like the fact that the boat is spending it's time under a canopy, but I am concerned about the 2 single bunks supporting the boat. Was any special cosideration taken for how they meet up with the hull, or is all that weight resting on 2 one inch wide slivers.
I know it is a depressing subject... :doh: Now that is corny.

The bunks are aligned with the stringers and are angled to match the deadrise of the bottom. It's a standard width cypress bunk used in 99% of all boats down here in FL. It's a non issue.

[mjw930]

Update:

I made an offer on the Black boat and after some negotiation the seller and I agreed on a price a lot closer to what I wanted to pay than what he was asking.

I had a hull and mechanical survey done yesterday and the surveyor put the boat at Above Average Condition Throughout.

I should pick it up tomorrow (Saturday)

BTW, since I stated this thread asking others what the boat was worth I suppose I should tell you what the surveyed Fair Market Value is............. $22,550 :eek!:

[Donzi Racer]

Update:

I made an offer on the Black boat and after some negotiation the seller and I agreed on a price a lot closer to what I wanted to pay than what he was asking.

I had a hull and mechanical survey done yesterday and the surveyor put the boat at Above Average Condition Throughout.

I should pick it up tomorrow (Saturday)

BTW, since I stated this thread asking others what the boat was worth I suppose I should tell you what the surveyed Fair Market Value is............. $22,550 :eek!:


I figured the survey was going to come back higher than ya'll thought it was. And by the way, congrats. I pulled into florida with our new toy today also. Dropped it off for a little resto and will be hopping to go riding soon. Let me know if you need anybody to help you go get the 22. If you already have help, then call me when you get it settled in, I want to come see it.Believe it or not, I saw these Donzi's today, 1966 barrel back triple hatch, 1967 Baby Donzi 14 yellow hull in what looked like mint condition, the beautiful 16 classic mahogany deck v-drive, a single hatch 18 barrel back being totally restored, & oh yea, a 80 hp merc engine and outdrive from a 14 foot Donzi. Now boys and girls, that is what I call a good day. And some of them were for sale. I think we need to have a Donzi only boat sales lot some place here in Florida. There is a bunch of them down here. Mark, let me know when you are accepting visitors. We are not but a hop skip and a jump from you. Tom

[Donzi Vol]

...Believe it or not, I saw these Donzi's today, 1966 barrel back triple hatch, 1967 Baby Donzi 14 yellow hull in what looked like mint condition, the beautiful 16 classic mahogany deck v-drive, a single hatch 18 barrel back being totally restored, & oh yea, a 80 hp merc engine and outdrive from a 14 foot Donzi. Now boys and girls, that is what I call a good day. And some of them were for sale...Tom

Man, I really shouldn't encourage all of this, should I? Actually...yes, I should!

[Donzi Racer]

Man, I really shouldn't encourage all of this, should I? Actually...yes, I should!


Young man, I think your Donzi is a 1966 not a '68. And that would be the triple hatch or the single hatch. Hmmmm? Unc.

[Donzi Vol]

Ha. My mistake!

Well I guess all of that is up to you.:wink: Of course I could probably actually afford the triple... hehe