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roadtrip se
12-14-2007, 10:56 AM
I attended four rallies in 2007. We had a ball. As the skunkworks season begins, I wanted to throw this topic out on the stove for discussion.

There are multiple rally choices for all of us to partake in coming up in 2008.
It has been a pleasure to see these events mature over the past eight years that I have been participating in them.

I saw mutiple, near miss situations occur this year on runs. I am not pointing
fingers of blame, each incident had its own circumstances, and stuff just happens some times.

I personally carry heavy insurance, stay sober, and wear lifeline jackets at these things. I also run the boat and I mean RUN it!

It is my opinion that based on the size of these runs and the potential liability that they represent, that an event organizer should have an umbrella policy,
the operators should show proof of liability insurance, and that a life vest of some sort should be required to be worn during the runs.

I know this is going to look like a police-nanny state, protect us from ourselves statment, but I just think it is the right thing to do.
Poker runs have been doing it for years and we are not slowing down, last time I checked.

What do you rally attenders think?

BUIZILLA
12-14-2007, 11:36 AM
+1

actually, that's not a strong enough statement...

+100

Last Tango
12-14-2007, 04:24 PM
Liability insurance costs money. BIG money. This would require every member of this board to pay an annual dues in order to fund such a policy. Waivers would be required of every boat owner, and every crew member and parents of all minors.
How do other clubs handle this? From my personal experience, the Porsche Club of America has a major policy. Since we have 56,000 members paying $45 per year for dues to the National organization, a portion of that goes to the National policy coverage, and each Porsche Club Region is then charged an additional several thousand dollars for each Drivers Ed or Club Race as an additional rider for speed events (those extra rider costs are covered by entrants fees - are you really ready to pay $400-$500 for registration to AOTH or any other local Donzi gathering? Those events would be considered speed events since speed is the major portion of the on-water activities).
Poker Runs charge a bunch of money, a big hunk of which goes to the insurance for that event. SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) does it the same way. In fact, all major car clubs to which I am affilliated do that.

Personally, I don't want to go there with this group.
We each have personal insurance for our boats which also includes liability.

If you can't play friendly and sober, don't come to events.
If you don't have enough insurance to cover the worst case scenario, don't go boating at all.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

roadtrip se
12-14-2007, 10:24 PM
that we should all take personal responsibility and carry good insurance on our beasts, but I wonder if this is really the case. I don't think it should be an option. You want to run with us, then you have to have it. I also don't think asking people to wear a life vest is too much to ask.

Mark, I know that we have had an umbrella at AOTH for the events over the past couple of years. Nobody paid much to run with us. Tom, Byron, Jerry, Liz, Mark, Scot, myself, and many others work hard to collaborate to put this thing on and raise funds to keep it going through the auction. People also eat well, thanks to the generosity of the auction contributors and a small fee at the door.

I am concerned that if something happens at AOTH, and that is a big IF, that I am going to get sued, because I contribute to this event as part of the organizing comittee every year. The fact that I am concerned about this is the fodder for a completely different conversation on the world we live in today.

As the Supreme Sea Dog, this kind of stuff must have crossed your mind, so what do you do?

Last Tango
12-15-2007, 03:52 PM
As the (Past) Supreme SEADOG, I trusted my fellow boaters at Donzi events to have made responsible decisions and taken due care to protect themselves and their property, as well as mine. In the last 8 years, I was never let down.
Going forward, I believe that events like AOTH and the Hometown Gathering may need some blanket policy to cover the organizers. As the organizers of these events, it is up to those individuals to determine if their event may need liability coverage, and to procure such protection as they may see fit.

SEADOG events in the past have been nothing more than the coincidental gathering of Donzi boaters at a place loosely chosen. There have been no official events, no banquets, no registration, no collecting of any funds to provide food or alcohol. Each attendee was on his own to make room reservations, food and beverage purchases, and to be where the majority of other Donzi's seemed to be at any given time. The schedule was whatever the folks standing on the dock at 10:00 decided they might boat together.
As such, these quasi-events did not lead to any expectation of organization by any particular individual or group.

AOTH and Donzi Hometown Gathering are pretty much the opposite of this. They are very highly organized, include the expectation of food and (alcoholic) beverages, have meticulously planned and printed schedules of events, have sponsorships, and involve a large cross section of boaters from this board and beyond.
Major SEADOG "events" have been little more an open invitation to folks to meet up at OTHER folks events (Poker Runs, Miami Boats Show, Mt. Dora Boat Show, AOTH, DHTG, etc).
Our longest running annual event is so loosely done that we arrive at Lake Eufaula to be suprised by who actually made it that year. The generous hospitality of Forrest and Giny to host a party at their home does not even involve the driving of boats to arrive. Their risk is the same as anyone who may be hosting a holiday party at their home over the next few weeks.

Donzi.net does not host or organize any events.

Caveat venditor.

Dr. Dan
12-15-2007, 04:32 PM
:smash: Lake George does have each "Captain" sign a waiver statement, and I believe Miller has something similar at his Owners Rally. As to how well that or any signed document protects any group or individuals is always subject to interpretation by all the parties concerned.

Fact is that like Mark mentioned, if a coincidental rendevous of like minded boaters occurred than its up to the individuals who are attending.

I guess this could lead into all sorts of directives that concern safety.... not the least of which is ..."Stay In Your Lane" or its not a friggin race so its ok to not always be the lead boat.... God knows what we all experienced in Florida this past year had a ton of lessons in it... but most of those issues are personal responsibilty choices.

My first concern is always for my passengers safety...as such, not many folks saw me leading anywhere in Florida this past year. Although I don't think its unreasonable to make sure each Captain presents a copy of a valid current policy.

I have to at Rock the Bay when I ran with the Big Boys, that is $600 to run...and up to $10,000 first place prize money.

Its all relative...sometimes I hate relatives....:spongebob:

Doc of Preventative Maintenance & Random Litigation

roadtrip se
12-16-2007, 01:43 PM
My career forces me to deal with lawyers and the crap that goes with them including,
contracts, liability, disputes, and litigation at times. It ain't fun and believe me, I don't want it
in my personal life, especially my boating hobby.

Thanks Jim, Mark, and Dan. I am with you on simple solutions.

I would like to hear what some more folks think.

Tidbart
12-20-2007, 01:55 PM
I am working on a draft announcement of the upcoming Mt Do...Tavares Antique Boat Show. What do you think???

'I will be attending the Tavare wooden boat show. I will be alone at the Lakeside in having fish dip and pizza around 7pm Friday evening. :wink::wink: Following that, I will be going to the show, alone, on Lk Eustis Saturday morning.:wink::wink: I will most likely leave for the event around 11 am. :wink::wink: I might make a side trip to have some lunch around noon at Gators in Eustis.:wink::wink: Maybe I will see some familiar faces. :wink::wink:.......'

That's as far as I've gotten. Think this will keep the lawyers away?

B

Last Tango
12-20-2007, 04:37 PM
Sorry to hear you will be alone that weekend. I, too, will be alone that weekend with another unnamed person and may pass through those same places, at around those similar times. Perhaps we might see each other.:hyper:

WingWing
12-21-2007, 01:53 PM
if you are involved in the organization of an event, have a drivers meeting before the fun begins. state laws, boaters safety, everyone wear a life jacket, no alcohol for the driver...etc.

event insurance is surprisingly cheap from my understading.

Sending you a pm roadtrip.

roadtrip se
12-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Got your note and it looks like some good resources for this topic.

The combo of a couple near misses and the Lake Geo release form is what got me thinking about this. To be honest, my first reaction when presented with the form at Lake Geo was "What the H*ll is this?" after reading all of the legal mumbo jumbo, but I signed it and took a copy with me.

I agree with the no-need for the more casual "events" that occur all over the country. I would like to see the reaction I would get out of somebody like FarmerTex, if I shoved a liability release form in front of him at a place like Bass Hollow at the Texas Round-up... "You can take that thing and shove it into your own personal combine, ya mohron!"

But the bigger events are a different story....

farmer tx
12-22-2007, 11:18 PM
:yes::)

Scott Pearson
12-23-2007, 07:15 AM
Guys,
This is a great topic and I would be glad to get any information I can to cover our event. You cant be to over protective now adays. Yes, We have a release form and everyone signs it. We do have a drivers meeting and address saftey.

Any thoughts.....

Team Jefe
12-26-2007, 08:02 AM
i have a legal eagle in the house, she reads every "waiver" we sign for poker runs, etc. and i mean READS THEM.

every time she tells me it's not worth the paper its on. any decent lawyer could get around it in 5 minutes.

so we focus on safety, keeping our distance and carry lots of insurance. asking for proof of liability is too much to ask IMHO

I agree with the farmer...besides PK falls in the later, dis-organized group....just the way we Texans like it:wink:

Dr. Dan
01-03-2008, 06:10 PM
:eek!: Well...as most avid boaters are aware...this is part of a long and sad story.

http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53257

I was reading this over on Speedwake. I guess the Donzi Group that met up with me in Michigan 2 years ago...saw the last of the Smoke On The Water Poker Run...and we did not even know it yet.

Sucks... but its something to make you think.

Doc :smash: