1995 Donzi 16 re-paint

[skifastinvt]

Hey everyone,
Some of you may remember my first post about blisters last month when I bought a Donzi 16 (4.3). Now that the boat is dry, I can say for sure that the blisters are not gel, but rather failed clear coat. The boat has been repainted (red stripe and red side of hull), even thought the white gel on deck and bottom are nearly perfect (did Donzi red have a tendency to fade quickly?) The blisters are only at the waterline of the red hull sides. Obviously from sitting in the water.
The previous owner claims he did not paint it and the person he bought it from didn't paint it. Either I was lied to or he was. The problem showed after a summer of the boat sitting in his lake. He decided to sell the boat as he was selling his lake house and didn't need a boat. So, I picked it up for what I feel is a reasonable price (as I don't figure it to be a collectable, just a fun family lake boat)- $7,750 (fresh water only 150 hours and nearly perfect interior).
I will prob. go a summer with the blisters on the waterline, but would like to start planning for a fix to really make the boat look sharp. My first thought would be to try to buff off the clear coat, and see what happens. I'm not sure what type of paint was used, and why someone decided to clear coat.
Beyond that, a new paint job may be considered. I know some of you have painted. Imron or awlgrip, I have read the debates. I have a friend who is a pro auto body guy and a talented painter. He will prep and paint with whatever I ask. My question is will this paint last on the sides of my hull where they touch the water? I'm not worrired about the bottom of the hull, as the white gel coat is near perfect Will my new paint on the sides of the hull be able to take 5 months a year of sitting in the lake?
I look forward to reading your thoughts!
Thanks!
Al

[mrfixxall]

first i would try wet sanding the clear off on a section of the boat and then try buffing that area..donzi may have put the clear on the boat at the time it was built..i remember around the mid 90's that a salesman at our local dealer (baldknob) told me that donzi put a what he called hard coat on some of their boats which i found out later is all it was sikkens poly urthane clear..

so you may have good gel under the clear and all it may just need is a good wet sanding and a buff..3m makes a 6'' da wet sanding system but you will need a hutcinsen ultra fine da sander which makes a real fine circle motion and will remove the clear fast..start with 2000 grit and keep it really wet with a spray bottle..then buff it with some 3m perfect it rubbing compound and see if that section smiles at you..

[skifastinvt]

Thanks for the reply mr. fixxall,

I wish that it was just a bad clear coat over good gel, but I'm 99% certain the red was painted. I can see where the red was masked on the underside of the calking on the rub rail. It was an excellent spray job...but the clear failed. I'm curious if there is a way to prevent it.

al

[mrfixxall]

You may be seeing the clear mask line,,i cant see it so i cant tell.it wont take but a few hours of sanding and buffing to determin it you need to paint itor just re clear it...if you feather the clear back you may be able to just spyay clear over it..the only way to keep it from blistering is to spray 4 coats of clear over it then wetsand then hit it with another 4 coats of clear and wet sand it and clear it again....what this does is seals the poares serface of the paint,by doing it in multi stages and wet sanding it will seal the serface better and give it a lesser chance for water to seep through the clear..

[glashole]

for sure it's not osmosis?:(

[VetteLT193]

If you plan on the boat sitting in the water, I'd stay away from paint unless you are willing to use a bottom paint on all areas where the boat remains wet. This means sanding everything down to gel, and either buffing the gel or do a re-gel. Even if you use MrFixxall's method of clearing multiple times you still run a risk of problems down the line.

If you are going to keep the boat on a trailer or lift, you can paint the whole thing (bottom included). Awlgrip blows gelcoat away in all aspects except it's ability to remain wet. That means you can keep it in the water for a
max of a couple of days.

As far as your question about the gel fading, that is simply what gel does. It is far more noticeable on bright and dark colors. Unless you can keep the boat inside and constantly waxed you are generally fighting an uphill battle.

[skifastinvt]

I'm almost positive that it is not a case of osmosis. A clear bubble and be broken and then peeled away revealing a smooth (though somewhat dull) red surface. Does anyone have any experience with a colored hull that has done a restoration? Has paint held up?

[VetteLT193]

I'm almost positive that it is not a case of osmosis. A clear bubble and be broken and then peeled away revealing a smooth (though somewhat dull) red surface. Does anyone have any experience with a colored hull that has done a restoration? Has paint held up?

Here is my brother's 1987 22. Awlgrip, was done a few years back. It's nearly flawless. Look closely at the picture. You can see the clouds reflecting off the deck, as well as everything else.

[mrfixxall]

I'm almost positive that it is not a case of osmosis. A clear bubble and be broken and then peeled away revealing a smooth (though somewhat dull) red surface. Does anyone have any experience with a colored hull that has done a restoration? Has paint held up?

I have imron on my x but it was applyed by multi stages (lots of sanding)

its been on the boat since 2000 and was left in the water only for a weekend and it looks the same as the day it was applyed..

fyi all those huge superliners are painted with awlgrip and they seem to hold up..the only way that paint may stay on the boat is if you paint the whole bottom with out breaking the edge where the painting stops so the water cant get behind the paint and blister..

[skifastinvt]

Vette,

Your brother's boat is beautiful! Did he paint the sides and bottom as well? If so, how is it holding up? Does he keep it in the water?

I realize that many of the super yachts use paint on their hulls, but they don't paint below the waterline. The challenge with the donzi 16 is there is no clear waterline break. Part of the colored side hull is below the waterline. My best guess is to sand, have it repainted, and hope for the best.

[Pismo]

Here is my brother's 1987 22. Awlgrip, was done a few years back. It's nearly flawless. Look closely at the picture. You can see the clouds reflecting off the deck, as well as everything else.


Did they paint the white as well or just the red? Looks great.

[VetteLT193]

The whole boat is painted, white & Red. The top, sides, and bottom are painted.

My 1988 Minx sits next to his for the time being, and the Awlgrip white looks much better (it's hard to explain, but put simply it's brighter white). His Donzi letters are painted as well. The only thing not painted is the interior floor, it is original.

When he lived in the keys, he would keep it in the water for maybe the weekend. He's also done a few poker runs, where it would sit in for a couple days, but otherwise it's only in while he uses it, and on the trailer the rest of the time.

Here are a couple more pics...

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31853&d=1190817880

[mike o]

Well, I you have saved yourself some coin so far... IF you think its NOT osmotic, just tap the bubble and if the gel falls off and you see the glass you GOT it But, Im stickennn to my guns .. Bin building boats 28 ys ( high end canoes). you could have spent alot $ grinding .... so now you can spend alittle, whenever and have the boat RE-GELCOATED somewhere......... because chemical bond vs mechanical bond ie (Paint) not gonna last...... then you can keep your boat in the water (thats nice, it is a boat) and not have to worry about scratches........... Mikeo

[VetteLT193]

Well, I you have saved yourself some coin so far... IF you think its NOT osmotic, just tap the bubble and if the gel falls off and you see the glass you GOT it But, Im stickennn to my guns .. Bin building boats 28 ys ( high end canoes). you could have spent alot $ grinding .... so now you can spend alittle, whenever and have the boat RE-GELCOATED somewhere......... because chemical bond vs mechanical bond ie (Paint) not gonna last...... then you can keep your boat in the water (thats nice, it is a boat) and not have to worry about scratches........... Mikeo

I'm confused at your comment about chemical vs mechanical bond... A product like Awlgrip will have a chemical bond if applied properly, just like Gel would have.

As far as keeping in/out of the water it's dependent on many things. You can keep a boat with Awlgrip in the water, as long as it stays above the water-line. In the case of a Donzi, I wouldn't keep mine in the water for any extended period anyway so it wouldn't ever matter to me.

[mrfixxall]

because chemical bond vs mechanical bond ie (Paint) not gonna last...... then you can keep your boat in the water (thats nice, it is a boat) and not have to worry about scratches........... Mikeo


paint will last as long as gel does,,this paint job is 7 yrs ols and still looks as good as the day i first put it into the water:wink:

[mike o]

algrip is a cross-link product has simular chemistry as gelcoat and really is not a paint. as most people think of paint.... its self discribed top coat and many multi million dollar yacths are top coated with it and algrip has another product for below waterline applications. their self-leveling stuff is great for the do it yourselfer in the backyard. Like you said 2' of the stern is below the water line. I keep my 16 on my dock from may, till nov. So algrip kinda a problematic and if I sell it to somebody else, tell them it cant be kept in the water, or reapply gelcoat which you can really build up a much heavier coat with a non waxed gelcoat and forget about it... mr fix all, your boat looks great. did you paint it? haaaa ,top coat it yourself?

[mrfixxall]

mr fix all, your boat looks great. did you paint it? haaaa ,top coat it yourself?

Mikeo,thanx,,yes i painter it with imron,,took two years and will never do it again:D..and i thought it would only take a month,boy was i wrong ha ha...

[Conquistador_del_mar]

I have painted at least 50 boats in the past with Imron single stage poly urethane enamel paint for use in fresh water lakes here in north Texas. There was absolutely no deterioration in the gloss or color over a ten+ year period that I would see the ones that I had painted. One of the prettiest was a black Donzi 22' that I painted a very dark blue which looked much better than the factory gelcoated boat. I wish I had a picture to show. The only negative to Imron was that it did not like being underwater for much more than a week before it would start to soften and develop blisters like was described in this thread. At the time that I painted professionally (about 15 years ago), Awlgrip was basically the same composition paint as Imron so I stuck with Imron with great results. As long as the customer understood that they could trailer their boat or not leave it in the water for more than a few days, there was never a problem. Most of the boats that I painted were just the tops, sides, and transoms. Prep work was fairly easy as long as your final prep was with a wax/grease remover after sanding to 320/500 grit longitudinally. Acetone or laquer thinner will bring wax from the gelcoat to the surface producing fisheyes. No primer was necessary. The high gloss and durability of Imron is hard to beat!! I always used a color chart color so that getting an exact match for repair work was easy. Imron never changed colors - even after being in the Texas sun for years. Since so many of you are in saltwater, I don't know how Imron holds up there. Bill

[TheFees]

I had a body shop for 20 years. 11 guys working in a presitgous location etc. Here are the essentials.
To determine if it was clear coated or red coating, take a small spot with 600 grit wet or dry paper and wet sand the tiny area. If the sanding residue comes up white it is clear, if it comes up red it is red. It is possible that a red base coat was put on, topped with clear also. (You don't need me to explain that one, you know about sanding and seeing clear)
If a surface finish is bubbling, you need to take it all off before proceeding. Figuring only the water line exposed area is the culprit could be an expensive assumption. Feathering the lower area, and just top coating the top, and refinishing is fodder for a complete redo next season. Let's do it so it lasts.
I agree with others, trying to re-establish the factory gel coat finish if possible is ideal. Removing the paint can be done by wet sanding, although that is a tricky way to do it. You have to be careful to sand just until it removes the paint, and not dig any holes. Additionally, using a heavy enough grit to quickly remove paint, but not dig into the gel coat is difficult to say the least. In the shop we used to use special stripper on fiberglass panels, that would not soften the glass. The problem here is that if you are trying to recover the natural glass underneath as your finish, will the special strppers for fiberglass ruin the depth of the natural finish. Of course being able to refinish it after using the special fiberglass stripper is always an option.
Pertaining to bringing up an old aged red, which is the color that always fades, I am amazed at what a lambswool tie on bonnet, with Dupont, or other manufacturers, white fine, (hand application on the can) compound can do, topped off with 303 protectorant will do. Here is my 1987 red Donzi
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/24619/2000517330100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
One of the advantages of Donzi's are they are true gel coat, so you can restore their luster, by going into lower layers. I have never personally wet sanded the boat, then buffed, but many in this forum have, obviously successfully. The same lambswool bonnet, with fine compound will take out the sand scratches, then finish with 303 protectorant, which is the only thing, and I repeat only thing that I have found will bring up an old finish AFTER compounding, and washing all of the compound residue off.
Next point. Bubbles are always an adhesion problem. I realize that surface exposure can bring out the worst, and aggravate a problem, but have you seen bottom coated boats, that are prepared properly, suffer from peeling. Water exposure is not enough. Paint needs primer for it to stick. If you do not want to prime, then at least used a good clear adhesion promoter. Also sanding to at least 400 grit is neccessary for a good grip. Primer rules in preparing for paint.
This post is getting long. I will check back in if you have any questions. I am not a boat refinish expert, but have refinished fiberglass cars, did a lot of vettes. My shop was a factory recall shop for GM with their corvettes with peeling clear. They used clear urethane over top of lacquer basecoat color. That's dumb. Lacquer dries by breathing, venting solvents, urethanes with hardeners dry internally. The 2 products are also incompatible. So when the lacquer tried to vent the solvents, it ran into the urethane skin/wall. The lacquer solvents attacking the urethane shield. It broke down, and peeled off. Now I am really getting off on a tangent. (You can use unbelievably fast drying lacquer primers under urethane though, they totally dry so fast, their isn't any solvents left in them, with fast dry, clean up grade thinner) Later.

[mike o]

Nice post, (thefees). Im jumping in one last time and not to lobby for anybodys choice of topcoat. They are ALL really expensive, and all top coats have there issues. I build new boats and I do NOT do any repair work even on my own OEM boats... unless it a dab... I send it out, because its a compeletly different trade, at least I have the OEM gelcoat available instead of having to send a chip out ($). I can build a brand new canoe or 2 with the time it takes, because thats what I do every day, and somebody really good will do a better job... finding the somebody really good ... is the hard part.

[TheFees]

Well, I you have saved yourself some coin so far... IF you think its NOT osmotic, just tap the bubble and if the gel falls off and you see the glass you GOT it But, Im stickennn to my guns .. Bin building boats 28 ys ( high end canoes). you could have spent alot $ grinding .... so now you can spend alittle, whenever and have the boat RE-GELCOATED somewhere......... because chemical bond vs mechanical bond ie (Paint) not gonna last...... then you can keep your boat in the water (thats nice, it is a boat) and not have to worry about scratches........... Mikeo
Mike,
I am totally interested in learning about Gel coating an existing surface. The idea of being able to apply true fiberglas gel coat to the surface, then sand and buff seems like an ideal solution. I think that my deck would be looking not so good right now, considering how many times, I may have lid across it with dungarees on, and the rivets slid across the surface, without a mark.
Can you share some tips on what is involved with gel coating an old surface. I do have a couple of scratch marks near the bow tip, below the belt stainless rail, where it missed the trailer. I was wondering about blending techniques.

[BigGrizzly]

Just to throw a wrench into it I used Interlux on mine and was my first paint experience with a spray gun.

[gcarter]

Mike,
I am totally interested in learning about Gel coating an existing surface. The idea of being able to apply true fiberglas gel coat to the surface, then sand and buff seems like an ideal solution. I think that my deck would be looking not so good right now, considering how many times, I may have lid across it with dungarees on, and the rivets slid across the surface, without a mark.
Can you share some tips on what is involved with gel coating an old surface. I do have a couple of scratch marks near the bow tip, below the belt stainless rail, where it missed the trailer. I was wondering about blending techniques.
I'm going to be re-gelling the transom and part of the bottom of of the Testa Rossa soon (one or two weeks) and I'll post as many pics of the process as I can. I find it's a lot easier than most folks think.

[skifastinvt]

Lots of good responses! George..I look forward to your pictures! For those of you that have repainted. Did you remove the bow light, lift ring, and gas fill to paint your stripe? Is it possible? I may consider a repaint of the stripe and a re-gel of the sides and transom if it can be done affordably. I'm concerned about removal of the existing paint on the hull and transom before I can gel.

[gcarter]

In case you missed it, here's what I did w/the Testa Rossa to remove paint.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476&page=3
All the paint is now off the hull, transom, and most of the bottom. I would suggest you buy, rent, or borrow some dollies. It's very easy to get the boat onto the dollies and you have uninterupted access to the boat.
As to the stripe, the more hardware you can get off the better. I know it's kind of hard for some of the double side bolted stuff on a 16, but it's worth it. On the other hand, you've a lot less area to refinish than the bigger boats.

[mrfixxall]

Lots of good responses! George..I look forward to your pictures! For those of you that have repainted. Did you remove the bow light, lift ring, and gas fill to paint your stripe? Is it possible? I may consider a repaint of the stripe and a re-gel of the sides and transom if it can be done affordably. I'm concerned about removal of the existing paint on the hull and transom before I can gel.

i did mine the same way gcarter is doing his (the rite way) except i flipped the lower part of the hull upside down which made it easier to redo

[gcarter]

One thing to remember when removing paint...a lot of the high end paints you might find on boats are a LOT harder than gel. If you were to try to remove paint from a whole hull w/600 or finer, you might need to quit your day job or something. The 220 I used was just fine. The key is to find some characteristic that changes when your getting close. Maybe primer appearing, or an identifiable edge you can use as an indicator to move on.
Ther's a big difference between trying to restore a good gel finish and removing paint.

[mike o]

thefees... building brand new, I spray the gelcoat into the mold with an r-2 type gel gun the nozzle tip is the size of a pencil and its not atomitized like paint nozzel, sprayed 20 mills or so. repair work, the gel is thinned with acetone, styrene, (whatever) ,to spray through a tiny paint gun type nozzel. Im sure there are alot of people that have more knowlege than i do about repair work. I do know that if you sand old gelcoat to deep, you will sand into the perosity (micro bubbles of traped air) that was dissolved in the gel when sprayed in to the mold when made, that will cause trouble getting the surface flat ...so be carefull of the 220. the higher quality the oem gel, the less perosity there is, isothalic - orthothaic. ortho is cheaper. theirs ortho- iso resins also, its the gelcoats base.

[TheFees]

thefees... building brand new, I spray the gelcoat into the mold with an r-2 type gel gun the nozzle tip is the size of a pencil and its not atomitized like paint nozzel, sprayed 20 mills or so. repair work, the gel is thinned with acetone, styrene, (whatever) ,to spray through a tiny paint gun type nozzel. Im sure there are alot of people that have more knowlege than i do about repair work. I do know that if you sand old gelcoat to deep, you will sand into the perosity (micro bubbles of traped air) that was dissolved in the gel when sprayed in to the mold when made, that will cause trouble getting the surface flat ...so be carefull of the 220. the higher quality the oem gel, the less perosity there is, isothalic - orthothaic. ortho is cheaper. theirs ortho- iso resins also, its the gelcoats base.

Mike,
Thanks for the input. I saw an old sailboat that 2 guys with zero refinishing experience used a repair kit, and was able to tint glass and blend it, then buff the top surface, and I could not tell the difference of where the repair was. I realize red may be more of a challenge, but I was hoping to do an all glass repair on the small areas. I know tinting the glass mix is necessary. Do you have any experience with this type of repair?
Also, as you are mentioning, does this mean that it is possible to spray a gel coat onto the surface, sand and polish???

[TheFees]

I'm going to be re-gelling the transom and part of the bottom of of the Testa Rossa soon (one or two weeks) and I'll post as many pics of the process as I can. I find it's a lot easier than most folks think.

Thanks for the follow up. I will be anxious to see gel coat in action. Your input is appreciated. I also am impressed with how thoroughly you are taking it down.
I know using paint can give you some fabulous looking results, especially with being able to fine paper it, and polish, but to me at least, restoring the Donzi to a factory gel coat is a preferred method.
I will be looking forward to your pics and helpful descriptions.

[gcarter]

Mike,
Thanks for the input. I saw an old sailboat that 2 guys with zero refinishing experience used a repair kit, and was able to tint glass and blend it, then buff the top surface, and I could not tell the difference of where the repair was. I realize red may be more of a challenge, but I was hoping to do an all glass repair on the small areas. I know tinting the glass mix is necessary. Do you have any experience with this type of repair?
Also, as you are mentioning, does this mean that it is possible to spray a gel coat onto the surface, sand and polish???
Minicraft of Florida will mix stock colors, but they'll also match any existing color. I think the charge is $75.00. That's what I did with the Minx. I had an extra honey and red hatch that I wanted to refinish to the original classic white. They were able to match it perfectly. They'll even generate a stock # for you.
https://www.minicraft.com/retail/donzimarine.htm

[gcarter]

Thanks for the follow up. I will be anxious to see gel coat in action. Your input is appreciated. I also am impressed with how thoroughly you are taking it down.
I know using paint can give you some fabulous looking results, especially with being able to fine paper it, and polish, but to me at least, restoring the Donzi to a factory gel coat is a preferred method.
I will be looking forward to your pics and helpful descriptions.
I buy my gel w/wax so I don't have to cover the sprayed product w/ anything. The downside is you have to wash the sprayed gel w/acetone or laquer thinner to remove the wax bdefore sanding. Otherwise you'll use an awful lot of sandpaper.
I use the oldest gravity fed HVLP gun I have. I don't even know the nozzle size. I use a DeVilbiss bag system so you can spray upside down and it helps w/clean up. Minicraft offers a super thin resin to be used as a spraying thinner (about 15% by volume). This really helps w/product strength because you're not thinning w/acetone or styrene that might compromise gel strength.
Gel won't normally run when sprayed so you can really lay it on. It's really different from paint. W/paint, you're trying to build depth and attain the best surface finish at the same time. W/gel, you're trying to build depth only and you're going to have a lot of orange peel. I try to mentally divide the surface into manageable areas of maybe six or eight square feet. You're only limited by the amount of gel you can get in the gun. Then I spray all the gel I'm going to on that area. Then I refill the gun before moving on to the next area before the first area has time set up. Remember, w/gel you're trying to get a depth of 16-20 mils and with paint only maybe 6 mils.....so it requires a different technique.
After the gel has set up (maybe the next day), I'll wash off the wax w/paper towels and acetone...don't be stingy. You'll use a lot of paper towels because you'll find if you don't you'll just be moving the wax around.
Once the wax is off, I start w/220 on a D-A just to get through the orange peel. Then I'll use a couple of finer grades on the air file to keep the surface flat. Then I go from 800 to 1200 on the D-A again. Afterwards you can follow the guidance of Smoke Diver or Need for Speed who do a lot of detailing.
You can also roll on gel but you have a lot less control and I'd probably only do that on an area you don't see al that often, like the bottom.

[Cuda]

Just to throw a wrench into it I used Interlux on mine and was my first paint experience with a spray gun.
I did the same thing as you Randy. I had never held a paintgun in my hand, before I painted my Formula F20 SC. By the time I got around to the transom, I don't think I could have paid any amount of money for a better paint job. It's dry in this picture, but it still looks like you could stick your arm elbow deep in the paint job.

I used Interlux Brightsides.

I did the deck, and the bottom in it too. I did the bottom, because I knew it would never be left in the water more than one night. I did the bottom with a roller. It's amazing how well that paint flattens itself out.

[mike o]

what about pva after it kicks?

[mrfixxall]

what about pva after it kicks?

you dont need to spray pva over the gel it you mix the wax or you can but it with wax in with the gel.i perfer to do it seperate because you get more product if ypu mix it yourself..

the wax will rise to the serface of the gel whyle its kicking off or cureing then all you have to do as gcarter stated is wipe the wax off with acitone then start sanding.:wink:

[mike o]

useing pva instead of wax is what I meant:wink:

[gcarter]

I've used PVA before w/excellentg results. I started using wax mixed in so that I didn't have to remember another step.

[mike o]

much better bonding, especally with tin coats. without the wax . less work-mess the next day. dosent change the gloss , less sanding.

[Donziweasel]

My 16 came with some really, and I mean really, bad fading on the first 2 feet of the nose. I used every type of compound I could find to try and rub it out. Finally, frustrated as hell, I wet sanded it. The results were amazing. Looks great, except in the right light, you can still see some of the fine scratches. Will buff it out when I get a chance. I did find one small crack near the lifting ring, not sure what to do about it.

[tedc]

Just like skifastinvt, I have a 1995 16 Classic with red sides and transom. I had sunfading issues maybe 5 years ago and had the affected areas wetsanded by a marine refinisher. He told me then that the gelcoat depth on the boat would not permit another wetsanding. The reason here, he said, was that the stratum under the color coat was white and that another wetsanding would bring the white out resulting in a pink appearance.

Given the natural fading I've experienced since then, the boat requires another restoration so I've read all the posts here with special interest. I am wondering whether the gelcoat advice I received was, frankly, bunk and another wetsanding by a pro using some of the techniques detailed here should be undertaken. On the other hand, if the advice was good I'm about to transform my red baot into something a bit more feminine. That's something I think I'd like to avoid.

If MrFixxAll, TheFees or any of you would have an opinion I'd be most appreciative.

[VetteLT193]

Just like skifastinvt, I have a 1995 16 Classic with red sides and transom. I had sunfading issues maybe 5 years ago and had the affected areas wetsanded by a marine refinisher. He told me then that the gelcoat depth on the boat would not permit another wetsanding. The reason here, he said, was that the stratum under the color coat was white and that another wetsanding would bring the white out resulting in a pink appearance.
Given the natural fading I've experienced since then, the boat requires another restoration so I've read all the posts here with special interest. I am wondering whether the gelcoat advice I received was, frankly, bunk and another wetsanding by a pro using some of the techniques detailed here should be undertaken. On the other hand, if the advice was good I'm about to transform my red baot into something a bit more feminine. That's something I think I'd like to avoid.
If MrFixxAll, TheFees or any of you would have an opinion I'd be most appreciative.

The professional you used may have knocked a lot of gel off when he sanded. I doubt anyone that knew what they were doing took that much off though. I don't know of any way to tell how much is really left, except for removing hardware and looking at the thickness, but the hardware was probably not removed during the first wetsand process so it isn't a valid place to look.

If it were me, I'd wet sand again, and if it's too thin then paint it. (or re gel if you are against paint)

[tedc]

Thanks VetteLT193.

I was just on the phone with Jim at the factory. He comes down the same as you. He indicated the boat likely had between 20 to 22 mils of red gel on it to start so there should be enough for several wetsandings.

If not, then it's into the imron booth I guess.

[mike o]

Several? maybe with 1000 -1500 grit. the problem with red gelcoat is the double chemical bonds ( which are naturally unstable) in the red pigment molecule, and is broken down by UV and it oxidizes.. b+ organic chemistry, tooooo. long ago...

[margo]

I had the same problem when i had my 16 the whole boat was cleared....Looked great but i left it in the water for 3 months and it bubbled below the water line....I hung the boat sanded out the bubbles and sprayed it from the waterline down with interlux performance epoxy....3coats...Only problem is it only comes in a satin white finish which is hardly noticible....It sat in the water every yr from May until Sept. for 2 yrs until i sold it without a bubble or problem....Joe

[TheFees]

Just like skifastinvt, I have a 1995 16 Classic with red sides and transom. I had sunfading issues maybe 5 years ago and had the affected areas wetsanded by a marine refinisher. He told me then that the gelcoat depth on the boat would not permit another wetsanding. I am wondering whether the gelcoat advice I received was, frankly, bunk and another wetsanding by a pro using some of the techniques detailed here should be undertaken. On the other hand, if the advice was good I'm about to transform my red baot into something a bit more feminine. That's something I think I'd like to avoid.
If MrFixxAll, TheFees or any of you would have an opinion I'd be most appreciative.
My advice is to only do the minimum. Not only for work saving purposes, but also for the best result. Don't ever go deeper than you need to. As in don't compound, when wax only will do. Don't sand when compound and wax will do. Etc on down the forever getting rougher line. So how does this apply to your situation. Namely this. My boat one summer when I broke it out for the season, wasn't red, it was faded to an orange. I did not wet sand it, but rather broke out the lambswool bonnet, and the Dupont 606S or equivalent fine white hand application type compound, and wheeled it real well. Compounding should take place with a tie on bonnet made out of real lambswool. Pick a silky smooth one. Put enough compound on a 1 foot square area, using a wooden paint stirring stick is convenient, drop the bonnet on top of the compound, and gently feather the trigger as you move the buffer around the 1 foot area, so as to get the whole area wet with the compound, then turn it on at full speed, which should be 2400 RPM (standard buffing speed, not 4 to 6000 like a grinder, or less than 2400 either. 2400 is the magic number) Then while still wet, move it over a 1 foot area, without a lot of pressure, let the buffer do the work by moving slowly while it is wet, it will soon dry out, then you continue to move the buffer over the area. The dry buff so to speak is where you get depth. You are not pushing on the buffer, you are letting the natural weight of the buffer gently pressing on the surface at that point. If you need to reapply some compound, you can do it again, although that is not normally needed. Think in terms of taking off stains, and surface stain, instead of cutting through the glass. My orange turned red again. Since you are fine polishing the surface, instead of cutting through the glass like when sanding, and buffing, this should not have a negative effect, concerning break through to the undercoats. This is a slow, ultra fine compound, with a silky smooth lambswool bonnet, done using a lot of time over a small area, that will really bring up the depth.
When you are done compounding the entire boat, figure about 2 hours to get the job done. At 1 foot square areas at a time. The old rule of thumb is that you move 1 foot in 7 seconds while covering your 1 foot area. You want enough compound to keep it wet over that 1 foot area, but not too much so that it does not go to dry after you make a couple of passes in order to get the entire 1 square foot area while wet, but then dry so you can glaze over it so to speak with the dry procedure. Go 1 foot in 7 seconds while dry also. If you try to cover too large of an area, you will not be able to control the wet buff time slowly, and then the dry time properly, and will wind up with junky results. Fall in love with the project. By the way DO NOT DO THIS IN THE SUNLIGHT. In a garage is fine, or under a shaded tree, but white compound, baked in the sun is a bugger to get off. Back to the application. You will get a feel as to technique and how much compound to use. You are not getting the mile deep look right from the compound. You need to wash it off, and you can use dishwashing soap for this part, because you do want to get the compounding oils off, and then top coat it with 303 protectorant, by using a cotton t-shirt kind of material. Wipe 303 on wet, then use a fresh piece to wipe it dry right away. Forget using wax it does not work.
When I am ambitious I use automotive degreaser after washing off the the compound and drying, before I use the 303. That way I am sure all of the compound is out of even the pin holes.
You can try a small area. To be honest with you the 303 does not leave a streak free shine, but it is deep, 303 is the only thing I have found that will give you deep look again. But it is like cleaning glass, no matter how careful you are it is tough to get it streak free. Well 303 has that quality. Don't worry about it, it looks great anyhow.
By the way when washing the boat after putting on the 303 do not use dishwashing liquid, that is designed to get wax, and oils off. Use an automotive car soap instead. Something that will remove dirt, but leave on the shine. One good washing with dishwashing liquid and the 303 is almost gone. Reapplication is possible, but it is better put on after a fresh buff. That is another thing about 303, it is a milky liquid, which is not putting a thick coat of anything on the surface. Plus it has ultraviolet absorbers in it, to protect the red from further fading.

[BigGrizzly]

I am loving this thread, Engines I can build all day with no help but I am sorely lacking in this area. Thanks all you guys for your input. I am printing out this for reference.

[gcarter]

I did a little compounding on the transom yesterday on Bob's 22.
His comment was, "That's a lot faster than wet Sanding!".

[tedc]

A belated and sincere Thank You to TheFees for this incredibly detailed post.
You are clearly someone with deep experience here. I will follow this advice closely next spring when I finish prepping the boat for the season. My instinct is not to do the work in the back of my garage where the boat is now and the lighting and elbow room is iffy but to wait until I can get it into a shaded spot outside.
I have two initial questions on the post for TheFees -
1 - some of the color on the sides of the hull, especially in the shaded bow area remain deeply rich red. I'm assuming this area needs a very light or maybe no compounding in contrast to the stern and transom areas?
2 - who is the manufacturer of 303 protectorant? DuPont?

[VetteLT193]

A belated and sincere Thank You to TheFees for this incredibly detailed post.
You are clearly someone with deep experience here. I will follow this advice closely next spring when I finish prepping the boat for the season. My instinct is not to do the work in the back of my garage where the boat is now and the lighting and elbow room is iffy but to wait until I can get it into a shaded spot outside.
I have two initial questions on the post for TheFees -
1 - some of the color on the sides of the hull, especially in the shaded bow area remain deeply rich red. I'm assuming this area needs a very light or maybe no compounding in contrast to the stern and transom areas?
2 - who is the manufacturer of 303 protectorant? DuPont?

1. It's hard to only do areas because it's tough to 'fade' in the sanding and polishing. You can try, but in my experience it's just as easy to just sand the whole dang thing.

2. I think 303 is made by 303... an individual company, if it's the one I'm thinking of...

[TheFees]

A belated and sincere Thank You to TheFees for this incredibly detailed post.
You are clearly someone with deep experience here. I will follow this advice closely next spring when I finish prepping the boat for the season. My instinct is not to do the work in the back of my garage where the boat is now and the lighting and elbow room is iffy but to wait until I can get it into a shaded spot outside.
I have two initial questions on the post for TheFees -
1 - some of the color on the sides of the hull, especially in the shaded bow area remain deeply rich red. I'm assuming this area needs a very light or maybe no compounding in contrast to the stern and transom areas?
2 - who is the manufacturer of 303 protectorant? DuPont?
TedC,
I just lost my reply so I am doing it again. Thank you for your kind words. The short and sweet of it is
Answer 1. Do the entire red areas top and sides, do the white areas top only, on red area on sides, just do them lightly. You will notice that you need to spend more time toward the stern area on sides, whereas the sun hits that, but the bow area on the side, slopes, making sort of an upside down surface, just go over those areas very lightly, enough to get the surface stains out. I periodically apply some hull cleaner/acid to the lower hull white area only, when it gets some stain from algae on it, but other than that, I do not need to buff it.
Answer 2. Here is the manufacturers link. http://www.303-products.com/ If you Google "303 Protectorant" you will also get a lot of places that carry it. I see it at boat shows, new boat dealers using it to show off the new boats. I know that some people are having good luck with new boats using car wax, but I found after trying everything, that nothing else even came close to 303 on used glass.
It is worthy to note that for those who have repainted their boat, their is a slightly modified version of this technique on paint works great as well. Remember this is a 1987, so it is 20 year old glass that has never been sanded. I know cause I have owned the boat since 1989... I even buff the metal rub rail, vent hoods, etc., and black exhaust flaps gently with ultra fine compound, and 303 them as well as the hydraulic cylinder bodies of the trim planes, and am shocked when they go from gray to black as gold, every year. Getting the buffing wheel sideways on the 4" exhaust tubes, does a number on them as well.
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/24619/2000517330100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
PS: Be careful around the snap rings, they can catch and even be pulled. I try to gently buff between them, sometimes they get buffed a little by mistake. Mine have the brass showing through, which is a reminder of Donzi quality throughout. Ferrari leather wrap Momo steering wheel, German VDO gauges, solid stainless rails, breakers instead of loads of fuses, pure poured hand laid glass, letting it cool overnight before popping it out of the mold to keep the glass true, and those brass edges on the snaps are gentle reminders, they even have chrome plated brass snaps. I love big boats, I love small boats, rubber rafts are fine, as long as you are on the water, but one thing I always say is "I would rather have a little bit of something good, rather than a whole lot of cr_ _!" That is why I have a Donzi, and Oh by the way, did I get into the ride yet? :boat: Wait a minute, this is a Donzi site, so these guys already know what I am talking about. Ok, Bob get back in the cage. :nilly: :)

[TheFees]

1. It's hard to only do areas because it's tough to 'fade' in the sanding and polishing. You can try, but in my experience it's just as easy to just sand the whole dang thing.
2. I think 303 is made by 303... an individual company, if it's the one I'm thinking of...
Vette, I agree with you 100%. It is as if there is a skin on a finish, and I suppose on glass, although I have never sanded glass. With paint, sometimes when you sand through it, then buff, it gives a slightly different hue than the non sanded area. Although there are exceptions to every rule, and this is one of them. Some finishes, like the old world lacquer before they removed the lead, which took away the deep gloss, you could blend in a small area, and paper and polish the deep coated areas, and just hand rub the blend carefully, with ultra fine compound, and then just kiss it with the buffer with some swirl remover, then machine glaze, then hand glaze, and get a perfect undetectable finish. It would require periodic waxing, or any kind of protective finish, to prevent any blends from showing as they age. Here I go rambling again.

[tedc]

My again thanks here to TheFees. With this very detailed background I have decided to follow it faithfully and will be doing the work this month in my heated garage.
So readers will know what a novice might encounter, I thought I'd post a few things I've found out in preparations for the job. I have a friend in the auto body business who's agreed with TheFees as to overall approach and we've proceeded as follows:
(1) To achieve the requsite polishing speed I've selected and ordered a Dewalt #849 Polisher which can do a speed range of between 1000 and 3000 RPM's. It has settings for a fixed sustained rate of 2500 RPM. I ordered one today despite having a loaner offered from my friend. He likes and uses this machine.
(2) I was unable to source Dupont 6065 compound. My friend suggested 3M 6031 as an alternative fine white hand application compound and put me in touch with his body shop supplier who has this, 3M double sided buffing pads (lambs wool he believes) and Saturday operating hours which I will use this weekend to check specs on everything before proceeding.
(3) My friend insists I then visit his shop before touching the boat so he can demonstrate proper operation of the polisher. He notes that this baby generates a lot of torque and touching fittings as TheFees notes must be done with care. He says its easy to prevent disaster with a little education. I'm game. Off to The Bronx for some hands on learning I'll go.

TedC,
I just lost my reply so I am doing it again. Thank you for your kind words. The short and sweet of it is
Answer 1. Do the entire red areas top and sides, do the white areas top only, on red area on sides, just do them lightly. You will notice that you need to spend more time toward the stern area on sides, whereas the sun hits that, but the bow area on the side, slopes, making sort of an upside down surface, just go over those areas very lightly, enough to get the surface stains out. I periodically apply some hull cleaner/acid to the lower hull white area only, when it gets some stain from algae on it, but other than that, I do not need to buff it.
Answer 2. Here is the manufacturers link. http://www.303-products.com/ If you Google "303 Protectorant" you will also get a lot of places that carry it. I see it at boat shows, new boat dealers using it to show off the new boats. I know that some people are having good luck with new boats using car wax, but I found after trying everything, that nothing else even came close to 303 on used glass.
It is worthy to note that for those who have repainted their boat, their is a slightly modified version of this technique on paint works great as well. Remember this is a 1987, so it is 20 year old glass that has never been sanded. I know cause I have owned the boat since 1989... I even buff the metal rub rail, vent hoods, etc., and black exhaust flaps gently with ultra fine compound, and 303 them as well as the hydraulic cylinder bodies of the trim planes, and am shocked when they go from gray to black as gold, every year. Getting the buffing wheel sideways on the 4" exhaust tubes, does a number on them as well.
http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/24619/2000517330100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
PS: Be careful around the snap rings, they can catch and even be pulled. I try to gently buff between them, sometimes they get buffed a little by mistake. Mine have the brass showing through, which is a reminder of Donzi quality throughout. Ferrari leather wrap Momo steering wheel, German VDO gauges, solid stainless rails, breakers instead of loads of fuses, pure poured hand laid glass, letting it cool overnight before popping it out of the mold to keep the glass true, and those brass edges on the snaps are gentle reminders, they even have chrome plated brass snaps. I love big boats, I love small boats, rubber rafts are fine, as long as you are on the water, but one thing I always say is "I would rather have a little bit of something good, rather than a whole lot of cr_ _!" That is why I have a Donzi, and Oh by the way, did I get into the ride yet? :boat: Wait a minute, this is a Donzi site, so these guys already know what I am talking about. Ok, Bob get back in the cage. :nilly: :)

[tedc]

So I followed TheFees instructions to the letter and my boat looks new. The bum advice I got from that phoney baloney "marine refinisher" who worked on my boat previously was total bunk - the gel coat was not "shot" or unable to stand another refinishing. I did not need to go with an Imron paint refinishing solution. I just did what TheFees told me to do and I'm back to a deep red finish. My finicky know-it-all 14 yr old son was like "wow Dad, this thing looks sick!" - which I understand to be a high compliment.
Thank you to all posters here - all contributed to my confidence in undertaking this project. And another special Thank You to TheFees. What an outstanding result.