Is Powerboating Really Under Attack?

[Carl C]

I know there have been issues in some areas like LOTO and Havasu which draw boaters from a large area due to limited navigable waters but here in Michigan this has not been an issue. Part of it is because of the abundance of water for the bigger boats to run on without bothering anyone but the many smaller lakes in Michigan have fewer performance boats than ever. The jet boats and V-drives are very rare anymore and there seem to be fewer hi-po outboards. Even the number of smaller performance IOs seems to be fewer. What I am seeing are more bass-boats, 'toons, bowriders and wake-board boats. Why isn't anyone up in arms over the wake boats running around deliberately creating the biggest wakes possible? The problem seems to be the larger boats in incompetent hands on relatively small bodies of water. But how can this really be a big problem? These boats aren't cheap and most of us must work up to a bigger boat. By then we are older and more experienced and responsible. There will be the occasional newbie who wins the lottery or gets an inheritance and goes out and buys an MTI or Outerlimits and raises hell but is it really that big of a problem? In Michigan the most contoversy is about the sand bar partys on Lake St. Clair and Cass Lake. I posted this to spark discussion about this topic, not really looking for any specific answer to a question. Hopefully it doesn't get stupid or ugly but I promise not to lock it down!:lookaroun:

[Donziweasel]

by the time don met his demise, big off shore boats were veiwed as tacky, cheesey, and unwanted. now there has been a resurgence of performance boats. still, we are a small group compared to the whole boating community imcluding family boaters, cruisers, and fishing boats. it seems to me that most of the accidents you here about involve performance boats. i could name 5 such incidents in the last year alone from the baja on powell to the wreck on havasue.

that being said, i think many veiw us as loud, intrusive and dangerous. the laws of speedlimits and decible levels are not directed to the family bayliner, but are directed at us. everytime there is an accident involving a performance boat or anytime we piss off someone due to reckless driving, noise, etc.... it gives more cause for stricter regulations.

it is easy to lump us all in one group, but in reality, it is a small number in our group who are the major offenders. i think most of the people on donzi.net are very responsible in regards to how we operate our boats. on the other hand, look at some of the responses on speedwake to yuor thread carl. responses that basically say screw the guy who left the letter are part of bthe problem, not the solution. until all performance boaters start boating responsibly, unfortunatly, we will all be percieved as offenders, even though it is a small number in our group and we will be forced to deal with more rules, regulations, and restrictions. i believe there are some people out there who have no business owning a performance boat due to bad attitude, lack of respect, and lack of training to operate a performance boat. the guy who has hardly ever driven a boat and buys a 130 mph fountain and then proceedes to terrorize a lake has no business driving that boat. unfortunatly, we all pay for his actions.:mad:

took me 30 min to type this left handed! Aghhhhhh!

[Sweet little 16]

yes we are.

yes this will get ugly.

for the boater education and self responsibility are the answer
we need to know what we are doing and the public needs to know what we are doing all the right things


for the general non boating public legislation and regulation are the answer and that's the answer we wouldn't like

you have been first hand on this with your letter and how you are preceived by the residents on that lake

just cause we are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get us

[roadtrip se]

if you want to see what has been going on at Grand Haven this year.

Similar tune to a lot of other locales. Basic gist... a couple of lake front property owners get irritated, put pressure on the local polticos, and boom you have oppressive and selective law enforcement for performance boaters. Right here in Michigan and possibly coming to a pond near you. And by the way, no new laws were created for this pleasure.

I run into it at lake cumberland too. I was amazed by the buzz on lakecumberland.com generated by our last AOTH rally there.
A few folks would have you thinking we were spreading death and mayhem. Amazing. Law enforcement seems to be pretty level headed on LC though.

As for what to do? As much as I use the term figuratively about "terrorizing the natives", I try to not give them much to complain about and put on the friendly face while I'm on the water.

As for the lockdown feature, do yourself a favor and just bury that thought somewhere in the backyard...

[gcarter]

To DW: John, IBM makes some voice recognition software that works remarkably well......type and navigate w/no hands.
I agree there's a boom in the sport. And there are some folks who really need some training before feeling around the edges of their performance envelope.
I know when a person buys a "super car", they really sincerely should enroll in one of the driver/racing training courses that abound and prosper around the country.
I remember in '86, the editor of Auto Week wrote an editorial about parents that give high performance cars to their children, and that at the same time should give them a performance driving course. If for no other reason than to teach respect for the potential danger and damage the combination of inexpierienced driver and large performance potential can cause.
You should have seen the outrage it caused!!!!!!! As though the course would teach the driver to use the right foot and drain his brains out at the same time!!
When I was younger, Corvettes were considered by many to be the answer for the lack of testosterone.........
I think some of the newcomers to this sport/hobby view performance boats the same way.

[tiger lily]

never had any complaints about me running my boat, just compliments about how it looks , i respect other boaters, my boat is fairly loud, not overkill, not that fast either, ive noticed most people only complain when offshores or performance boats get to close to them at a rate of speed, keep your distance, if you have to cross there wake over taking them, back it down for a second and do it safley, then lay the throtlle on the dash when in the clear, im always careful because you never know when youll run into that other person at the docks or the ramp, and if you were careful and they saw that you overtook them in a safe manner, never a problem

[LKSD]

I know there have been issues in some areas like LOTO and Havasu which draw boaters from a large area due to limited navigable waters but here in Michigan this has not been an issue. Part of it is because of the abundance of water for the bigger boats to run on without bothering anyone but the many smaller lakes in Michigan have fewer performance boats than ever. The jet boats and V-drives are very rare anymore and there seem to be fewer hi-po outboards. Even the number of smaller performance IOs seems to be fewer. What I am seeing are more bass-boats, 'toons, bowriders and wake-board boats. Why isn't anyone up in arms over the wake boats running around deliberately creating the biggest wakes possible? The problem seems to be the larger boats in incompetent hands on relatively small bodies of water. But how can this really be a big problem? These boats aren't cheap and most of us must work up to a bigger boat. By then we are older and more experienced and responsible. There will be the occasional newbie who wins the lottery or gets an inheritance and goes out and buys an MTI or Outerlimits and raises hell but is it really that big of a problem? In Michigan the most contoversy is about the sand bar partys on Lake St. Clair and Cass Lake. I posted this to spark discussion about this topic, not really looking for any specific answer to a question. Hopefully it doesn't get stupid or ugly but I promise not to lock it down!:lookaroun:



I think that there is many times an attitude that comes from the have nots against the haves... In other words I think a lot has to do with jealousy many times.. JMO... :) Jamie / Lakeside

.

[Sweet little 16]

I would do a search on the boating sites I think you have understated the areas that have had accidents

a high performance boat is really not a big expenditure for some just a monthly payment a 70 mph hi po boat can be had for under 100 K hell we were almost were sold on an eliminator 2 years ago 24 footer 496ho top speed 104 mph 1000 dollars down and a book of the month think the price was around 88k and don't think the first question out of a rookie is how well does it handle they want to know how fast it is go to a boat show and look !

and I don't buy the more expierenced more responsible stuff some of the biggest knuckle heads I have seen should have been old enough to know better plus sometimes the older more mature boater who has moved up has also engrained his bad habits into his routine and has done them for so long it becomes second nature. Take that boater who moved from a fast outboard to a bigger twin deep v 28 ish or so and mid 60 ish in speed and has driven it for 10 years or so and knows it little quirks and how it handles then moves up to a twin step twin sc motor 35 ish and 90 mph ish and on their first or second run they hook and spin and throw everyone over board? read the forums it happens alot more than we think the newer boats are much faster and more to keep on top of they are not point and click

more people are killed in kayaks and canoes on our water ways but when they get in trouble they don't run over a family out for a ride killing maming or mutilating them or their passengers or landing 200 feet into the woods they just kill them selves a tragedy non the less but not the horrific headline story that the media seems propigate plus canoes and kayaks are associated with peace and quiet personal time by the public but our "cigarette" "go fast" boats are not associated with the strong brave men who faced the sea and raced each other but to drugs, smugglers , gun runners and outlaws by the public so I think we have an image problem to start

[Carl C]

Thanks to everyone here for everything in the past. No problems with the answers here but I need to take a break from this internet boating forum thing for a while. I'm going through some other crap right now including the death of a friend of 35 years and some minor problems at work. It'll be OK, just **** we all have to deal with. Visiting and participating here has been enjoyable for me in the past but not lately. I was afraid to log on today because of what might be here and only did so because my e-mail said I had a PM here. I'm not leaving but just need a break. Thanks for understanding. See you around.

[VetteLT193]

The problem with the idiots with more money than sense has been around forever. The difference today is boats are much faster than they were in the past.

Look at a loaded mid 80's Cigarette (or other). Top speed from the factory might have been 70 MPH with the wind. Now 70 MPH is a base model. Same thing goes for Donzi's. In 1987 a 22 Classic could be ordered with the optional 330 HP 454. Today, base model is 375 HP, optional is 425 HP or more.

The problem spans past boats too. Go back 20 years and a base model Corvette had under 250 HP. Today, the base model has 400 HP.

It's fun to go fast, but I can't say I have less fun going 60 than I do 70 in the boat.

My 375 HP Corvette wasn't any more fun than my 1987 245 HP model either.

[gcarter]

The problem with the idiots with more money than sense has been around forever. The difference today is boats are much faster than they were in the past.
Look at a loaded mid 80's Cigarette (or other). Top speed from the factory might have been 70 MPH with the wind. Now 70 MPH is a base model. Same thing goes for Donzi's. In 1987 a 22 Classic could be ordered with the optional 330 HP 454. Today, base model is 375 HP, optional is 425 HP or more.
The problem spans past boats too. Go back 20 years and a base model Corvette had under 250 HP. Today, the base model has 400 HP.
It's fun to go fast, but I can't say I have less fun going 60 than I do 70 in the boat.
My 375 HP Corvette wasn't any more fun than my 1987 245 HP model either.
I think this analogy is good.....I recently read a road test on a new '08 600 HP Viper and how difficult it is to drive it really well. Well, anyone can drive it, but to drive it at it's potential is beyond most competent performance car drivers ability.
And the same goes for the current crop of high performance boats, how many of us know how to drive a 1500-2000 HP cat well under anything other than almost perfect conditions?????? I know I can't, nor do I want to. But there are folks that can afford it and would try anyway no matter who suffers.

[Craig S]

It makes sense!

And one of the reasons that Hyabusa owners don't keep their bikes too long.

[Donziweasel]

the vette and viper are great anologies, but the porsche 911 from the 70's and 80's has the be the creme de la creme. in the right hands it was a fast potent car, but due to extreme understeer, in the wrong hands it was a death trap. many a 911 were totaled due to drivers oversteering the car when the back end wanted to slide. with the right training, it was as fun a car as any back then.

[gcarter]

Do y'all remember the 935's????
I remember reading an interview of one of the regular drivers from that era.....He said that it was a pig, an unbelievably fast pig, but a pig none the less.:eek!:

[BUIZILLA]

isn't a 935 a turbo slant nose 930 ??

[VetteLT193]

I agree Buiz... I think it's a slant. And race only?

I hate foreign car maker's numbering systems. Totally confusing. The best number system of all time is Detroit Diesel, at least you knew what the numbers meant (then they went and screwed that up when the Series 60 came out)

[BUIZILLA]

way offff topic but................

the 935 was a kickoff from the '74 Carrera RSR, it first came out in '76ish I think....

[gcarter]

Gosh it's been a long time...but, yes, a slant nose twin turbo 930 "profile" race only car w/about 800+/- HP. The original Bosch platinum plugs were developed for that engine as it required an engine removal to change plugs.

[Donziweasel]

is powerboating under attack was becoming more of a performance car handling characteristic thread, so here we continue...not that carl would have minded since he bailed out for a while.
the 935 was a slant 930. there were also knock offs like gambella and ruf. i use to love porsches and had a 1984 3.2L carrera. fun as hell to drive, but one of the most unforgiving bastards ever. i never truely pushed it to the edge of it's performance because if it broke loose you were screwed. same with boating, you need to be trained to fully push a 140 mph boat to the limits or you are going to get killed.
buiz, i am still a muscle car fan, and liked a few buicks. i hate to admit it, i liked the 80's grand nationals. i know they weren't the early 70's and late 60's era, but it was about the most potent american muscle car at the time, and that was with a v-6. still pretty damn potent even by todays standards.
other than the usual suspects, like the hemi cudas, roadrunners, challengers, etc.., if i ever restore one, i think i would like a 1971 trans am 455ho w/ 4 speed. i know a hemi cuda or judge gto would kill it off the line, but i just like the way they look. plus, the history is interesting, named for the trans am racing series, but was never designed to run in it.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/johnnyalltrans/71ta001.gif
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/johnnyalltrans/71ta001.gif
hey george, getting pretty good at this left handed typing!

[BUIZILLA]

Wease, I raced an '87 Turbo Regal for about 10 years.... so did my brother...

[zelatore]

Bonus points for anybody who knows what marque won the outright championship for the first year of Trans-am.

Hint: It wasn't american, and I used to club race one myself...

[Donziweasel]

buiz, i would love to see a pic of the regal. i came very close to buying a grand national a few years ago. it is down right scary some of the performance mods some enthusiasts made to them. scary fast. it all started with the 1978 turbo regal with 165 bhp, as a buick man i am sure you know. i love the fact that they looked like your family sedan but a beast lurked underneath.


i was looking at a 87 gnx pretty stock, 275 hp, 360 ft pounds torque. ran 0-60 a little over 5 sec.

first trans-am race- 1966, winner-jochen rindt, car-alfa romeo how did i do?

the pontiac trans-am could never run in the series due to the fact that max`cubic inches was set at 305 which the trans-am was over. still, pontiac went with the name knowing it wasn't able to compete in the series. good marketing as they sold qiute a few.

[BUIZILLA]

actually Pontiac did run some Trans Am events in a '69 'Bird with 303" engines

[zelatore]

Alfa actually won the over-all in the first season, both the under 2.0 liter class where they competed and the 5.0 liter class with the big boys. Mostly due to the fact that they already had a very successful touring car campaing going in other parts of the world.

I'll watch vintage racing over just about any modern class any day of the week, and Trans-Am is my favorite class. Nothing like watching a Boss 302 and a Yenko Camero sliding around the carosel at Road America. They look like real cars; they sound like real cars; and the move around on the track like real cars.

I'm an F1 fan, but they are so far removed from what I've driven on the road or track I can't really relate. Trans-Am on the otherhand at least looks like something a normal guy might actually build and drive.

(yeah, fat chance of that without a 7 figure budget)

And did I mention the sound? The only other class that sounds that good is Can-Am. :propeller:

[BUIZILLA]

And did I mention the sound? The only other class that sounds that good is Can-Am. :propeller: A ZL-1 in a Can Am car with 180* headers has to be heard to be believed.... now, THAT'S music...

[Donziweasel]

buiz, wondering when i would hear from you, got some buick trivia for ya under hijacking carls thread.

[Formula Jr]

Last year in my area, oregon, there was a an interesting news cycle right after the boating fatality stats were released. We had 9 that year. The way the news treated it was very strange.
We had started a new boater ed program. You have to carry a little card around with you that says you passed a written test on boating safety. I was one of the first to take the test in my state and got 100% without any studying. Now you have to take a course, before you take the test. Even if you've boated all you life. The test is clearly aimed at the jet ski crowd.
There are no clear anwers from Oregon Marine Board (OMB) what this little boater ed card means. It isn't a licence, but you have to have it with you at all times. And can't operate a boat with out it. But out of state guests can drive your boat so long as at least one person on board has the boater ed card. The rules seem to get made up as they go along.
Any way the news on that year's boating accidents was very strange in how it was reported. First they made a big deal about the over 50% increase in Boating Fatalities that year. They didn't mention numbers. And the back ground shot was the typical telephoto lens effect of making all these common run-about boats look like they are all going to run in to each other.
Something seemed wrong about the story so I did some research just for S & Gs.
This is how those nine break down. And I had to find all of them on my own, since individual cases are not released by the OMB. I got confirmation from OMB that I had found all the accidents as reported in local papers across the state. And they would only say Yes or No if these were the right ones. They seemed pissed that I was asking.
The year prior we had 5 Fatalities. So there is were they got the 50% increase.
Fatality 1. Two guys fishing in a 10 foot aluminum boat on Lake Detroit in February. Both wearing waders. One guy stands to land a 20 lb Salmon and the boat rolled over.
Fatality 2. Guy on Jet ski on Kalamath Lake..... a large lake with an average depth of 2 feet..... rolles over and breakes his neck on the lake bed.
Fatality 3. On anchor on the Willamette, a woman slips on deck, hits head on a cleat and drowns.
Fatalities 4,5. Kids on inner tubes run into a snag on a white water river and are pulled under.
Fatality 6. Kayaker drowned by low dam on Sanitiam river.
Fatalities 7 and 8. old guy crabbers have engine failure on coastal river and are sweep out to the breakers.
Fatality 9. Sauvey Island near Portland, two teens, both drunk, skiing and the driver runs over his buddy with the prop.
Fatality 9 was the lead of the News Cycle. It left the viewer to think all nine were like this one and that there was some sort of problem to be solved. I sent my findings to the local paper, and the TV News Group and they didn?t publish it or make a retraction. I think NEWS should be real, and thats the only reason I followed it.
So if you think you are under attack, look it all up and see if what the news says is real. Most likely it isn?t. My attempt at retractions didn?t work, but that should not discourage you from doing the same in your area.
Speed boats are fun. And FUN is important. We have to defend that actively.

[chappy]

So if you think you are under attack, look it all up and see if what the news says is real. Most likely it isn?t. My attempt at retractions didn?t work, but that should not discourage you from doing the same in your area. Speed boats are fun. And FUN is important. We have to defend that actively.

Just my opinion, but this speaks volumes.

Thanks Owen,

Rich

[vonkamp]

Just my opinion, but this speaks volumes.
Thanks Owen,
Rich


Word...
It's amazing how much media manipulation goes on.



Thanks for editing Owen, I was reading prior to and had to make sure the company water cooler wasn't spiked! :hyper: :bonk:

[Donziweasel]

yet out of all the accidents, it is the drunk teens who are the high profile ones. i think you answered the question, yes, in many ways powerboating, and especailly performance boating is under attack. to classify a inner tube accident under boating accidents is absurd, but know one ever said the media were un-biased.

[zelatore]

Just my opinion, but this speaks volumes.
Thanks Owen,
Rich
It's the same with any non-mainstream hobby or pastime that upsets the lemmings. A couple years ago a bike magazine did a study of motorcycle accident reporting. One of the things they looked at (other than the obvious biased and sensationalized reporting) was how when a biker and a car driver were in an accident where the car driver was a fatality, the biker 'killed' the driver. When it was the other way around (normally the case) the rider simply 'died'. As if they had it coming. Just another example of how you can bias a story without making overt gestures. Another detail is that the bike always hit the car in the story, regardless of what really happened.

[roadtrip se]

but is it any coincidence that your accounts of the various accidents looks like good source material for the openings of the old HBO series, "Six Feet Under"? Weird.

We had a guy roll a 35 Sea Ray at LC early this year. The guy literally left the helm while under way to check and see if his wife had his snack ready down in the galley. Boom, they run up onto shore, roll the beast, and end up floating upside down. Nobody was killed, but the boat was a total.

Funny thing, you scarcely saw anything in the media about this. Now had it been one of them "cigar" boats, it would have been on CNN and Fox.

[Formula Jr]

Well, once I saw that the reporting was bias for that year, I went and tried to look up all the particulars on "boating" accidents for the past 6 years. A pattern started to emerge.
Oregon has never had what could be considered a boating safety issue. At least one that involved common sense reporting.
They include charter boat accidents that happen when these boats run the river bars and swamp. These really spike the numbers.
They include all river drownings involving something that floats, even if the "boat" is an inner tube or a cheap $40 two person raft.
There's always some guy fishing a high lake in winter that falls over board.
And there's always a couple of elderly men, that pull their 14 foot aluminum boats out of the garage during Crabing season, strap on a 40 year old 6 HP OB with last season's gas and set traps at the mouth of a coastal river during slack tide. This is Oregon's method of honorable suicide.

This year I know they are going to include at least one actual power boat related fatality. Which was a drag racing boat that flipped and killed the driver during a sanctioned racing event.

I could only find one boat to boat collision fatality in these six years. And that was a Wave Runner crossing the path of a runabout.

The bulk of accidents within each of these 6 years follow the examples I've listed above. They just repeat every year. But they are the same kind of accidents and seem unrelated to piloting a powerboat.

So, pull all these odd "accidents" out of the reported stats, and Oregon becomes an amazingly safe place to go boating. But that isn't news. And the drum beat for more regulation aimed at the average powerboater goes on even if the justification, in my opinion, is completely unfounded and misleading.