Need To Know Which Labbed Prop To Order. 'Poodle, 'Griz, Anybody Please Help

[Carl C]

Current set-up: 2005 22C w/496HO w/CMIs, straight tips, high flow air filter.

Presently running on average 73-74mph @ 4,850-4,900 rpm.

Present prop: 25p M+ Drive: Bravo X 1.5 ratio

I like this prop but have two issues. I need to use a lot of + trim and the boat lists to port most of the time under power. For top speed I now trim up the drive quite a bit and ease up the port tab. The boat is loose and squirrelly at this point.

I would like to get my rpms up to 5,000 where peak hp is. How much rpm should I pick up if I switch to a factory labbed 25p M+. What recourse do I have if the new prop puts my rpms too high?

There is no 26p M+ so if I need to go up in pitch should I switch to a 26 Turbo? Will a Turbo give more bow lift (less trim)? Does it reduce the listing? Again, what are my recourses if I don't like the prop?

Thanks.

[BUIZILLA]

25 Turbo

[mrfixxall]

and a smaller diameter prop will correct the torque twisting of the boat..

[Carl C]

and a smaller diameter prop will correct the torque twisting of the boat.. That's interesting. Need more input.:propeller:

[Mr X]

The factory uses a 27 Mirage Plus Lab with that engine/boat set up.
It IS a smaller diameter than the 25 Mirage plus also.

[mrfixxall]

Carl have you tryed a standard mirage?

[BigGrizzly]

First I don't use labbed Props. The Turbo or The TXP would be my Choice. What rhe factory does you won't match. I personally would try props befor I buy. Come to an event and I could have something. Where my issue is that by the time you get a prop and have it labbed your out $1000. Is it worth the 1 MPH? for me no!!

[Carl C]

The factory uses a 27 Mirage Plus Lab with that engine/boat set up.
It IS a smaller diameter than the 25 Mirage plus also. When did that start? They must have changed the gear ratio too. Mine came with the 25p M+. I cannot pull a 27M+. Please check out posts 1, 6 and 9 on this thread: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49899 BaldEagle is running a set-up very similar to mine. I sent him a pm to see what prop he is now using and if it is lab finished but don't know how often he logs on here.

Carl have you tryed a standard mirage? No, I don't have these props available for testing.

First I don't use labbed Props. The Turbo or The TXP would be my Choice. What rhe factory does you won't match. I personally would try props befor I buy. Come to an event and I could have something. Where my issue is that by the time you get a prop and have it labbed your out $1000. Is it worth the 1 MPH? for me no!! It costs me over a $1,000 to make a national event. My only income comes on week-ends. I have no way to try these props. I trust Mercury Marine. How much rpm will a factory labbed 25p M+ pick up over a stock 25p M+?

[Rootsy]

I'd trust Precision Props or Throttle Up before I'd trust Mercury... Any propeller is a compromise in order to get all around performance of a certain nature on any number of different hulls... what may work on your 22 with a 496 may Not work on something else in the same size and power range...

By "Labbing" a propeller you get more than just thinned blades, you get folks like Throttle Up and such who will work with you to tweak your blade profiles in order to extract certain handling charactaristics from your hull that you desire.

It is always best to start with a stock prop that gives you much of what you are looking for and if you want more or a few tweaks then have that prop modified to suit your needs...

Search a lot here... there are years of discussions on what prop is right for a 22... if it's been made, someone has likely run it... I do recall a few in depth discussions in the past.

[DonCig]

At least one of the Prop shops here in the USA offers a loaner demo program that where for $25.00 US; they will send you a prop to try. If it is not the right one, you send it back and they will send you another one. The sell and work on all brands of props so they are not just peddling the one brand that they are a distributor for. I will pm you the contact info and you can go from there. I also am not a fan of labbed props when you look at the cost to benfit ratio. But, hey this is performance boating and where does it say that we do anything from a logical perspective.....LOL

[gcarter]

Carl is at about 1000' altitude...that would account for about 13 HP, I think, which isn't a lot but he is starting at a deficit.

[DonCig]

Why the PM??
;) ;)
Because some of the dealers on this site get their panties tied up in a knot if they are not the first chosen one.

[Carl C]

Why the PM??
FWIW, Grizz and I have both shipped members props to try.. BUT, we do try and make sure the owners boat is up to snuff before shipping out 38 variations on a theme, something which benefits no one but UPS ;) ;) Scott, please help me determine what prop I should go with. All the info is in post #1. I need to pick up a few rpm. The dyno sheets in the thread that you stickied prove that peak hp is at 5,000 rpm.

Carl is at about 1000' altitude...that would account for about 13 HP, I think, which isn't a lot but he is starting at a deficit. Yes, I need more rpm. Also, George, you are incorrect about the header thing. The discussion here did make me aware that I wouldn't gain much top end but I did gain a lot of mid-range punch. It made better sense to do the headers first and then address the prop. As always I appreciate the input but the answers are all over the place and I'm more confused than ever. Is the Laser II a prop I should consider? It is said to provide more bow lift.

[boxy]

Carl is at about 1000' altitude...that would account for about 13 HP, I think, which isn't a lot but he is starting at a deficit.
George, I think Carl is pretty close to Detroit, and Detroit has an altitude of 197 metres/646 feet.
I'd be willing to guess that there are as many Donzi 22's running at an altitude greater than 600 feet as there running below it.

[BUIZILLA]

LG is about the same, if not virtually identical altitude, and I don't see any issues with the same combo's when running there...

[Carl C]

gps says 980 feet.

[Carl C]

Carl, IMO there comes a stage where you need to take a vacation and actually travel somewhere and play with some props BEFORE you start plunking down your hard earned cash on them.. Frankly, for the amount of $$$$ folks have spent on labbed props here on the board, the performance gains have been negligable for the $$$ WHEN RUNNING RELATIVELY STOCK POWER. The hipo guys have had better results, but you aint there yet..
Currently you are not getting the same revs others are with your power package and prop WITHOUT the CMI's. I would be curious to find out why before I started spending your money on new ones.. Heat and humidity are not the answer as I've seen your exact power combo perform better than yours is down here in So Fl. where it's never hot and humid... :bonk: :rolleyes: :boggled:
First off I'd be checking the tach on your boat, then plugs wires etc before I started playing with props. Find your missing RPM's with your existing setup before you add something else to the mix, unless your really into doing jigsaw puzzles... Some of these posts went up quick and I missed this one until now. I'll try to check the tach. I'll need to remove it partially to get access to the connections. May also try my old 24 Turbo just for kicks. I'll try to do this today.

[undertaker]

Carl, IMO there comes a stage where you need to take a vacation and actually travel somewhere and play with some props BEFORE you start plunking down your hard earned cash on them.. Frankly, for the amount of $$$$ folks have spent on labbed props here on the board, the performance gains have been negligable for the $$$ WHEN RUNNING RELATIVELY STOCK POWER. The hipo guys have had better results, but you aint there yet..
Currently you are not getting the same revs others are with your power package and prop WITHOUT the CMI's. I would be curious to find out why before I started spending your money on new ones.. Heat and humidity are not the answer as I've seen your exact power combo perform better than yours is down here in So Fl. where it's never hot and humid... :bonk: :rolleyes: :boggled:
First off I'd be checking the tach on your boat, then plugs wires etc before I started playing with props. Find your missing RPM's with your existing setup before you add something else to the mix, unless your really into doing jigsaw puzzles...



Well said......:):):):)

Carl, you really should at least entertain the thought of maybe looking into way you are not turning your stock prop more than you did before the exhaust...most of the guys I talked to who put Dana's exhaust on had to change props, CMI'S should be the same......


Undertaker

[mrfixxall]

Carl,how far are you from chicago? I have a mint standard mirage 25 you can try...if ya ding it its yours tho:wink:

[Carl C]

Carl,how far are you from chicago? I have a mint standard mirage 25 you can try...if ya ding it its yours tho:wink: Not very far and I appreciate the offer but now everyone thinks there is something wrong with my boat. I just took the tach out but it won't come apart. The wires connect inside and I don't know how to connect a service tach. My top speed and rpms are about the same as pre-headers. I do feel more midrange. I just checked over the entire motor for anything loose, etc. I found nothing except these two connectors that have been hanging loose at the back of the motor since it was R&Rd last year. This is odd because other unused connectors have plugs in them. By some small chance does anyone recognize them? I'm going to put my 24 Turbo on and hit the lake today just for kicks. That should put me all over the rev limiter. I guess if I feel the engine start to cut at at 5,150 rpms that my tach is OK.

[mrfixxall]

carl, keep in mind that a boat that runs in salt water will turn more rpm's then a boat that runs in fresh water(boiency).. do you know if they puled the distributor when the pulled the engine?i dont remember if it even has one, it may have dis with seperate coil packs and seperate wires..if your only down 100 rpm the i wouldnt suspect engine problems..if you were own approx 600 rpms then i would suspect somthings going on..

[Carl C]

I put on a 14 1/4 x 24 Turbo. At exactly 5,000 indicated rpm I got an intermittent warning beeper. GPS said 65.1. Tried it again and at exactly 5,000 rpm I got a continuous warning beep. I assume this is an overrev warning? Should it sound at 5,000 rpm? Also the boat porpoised more with this prop. Back to the dock to change back to the 25 M+ and bull**** with the deputy who was there checking things out. Today's best in rough water, 1/2 tank of 87 octane and (sorry 'Poodle) hot and humid: 72.1 @ under 5,800 rpm showing. I couldn't get a real good run in because the lake was pretty busy. I don't know how to hook my tach or scope up to this motor. I need to find out where to hook the wire to the engine's diagnostic connector. It has no distributor.

[gcarter]

I don't know how to hook my tach or scope up to this motor. I need to find out where to hook the wire to the engine's diagnostic connector. It has no distributor.
Carl, I know I mentioned this before, but a Fluke 78 http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+78.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnitedStates
will do what you want. It's a nice piece of equipment to have. See the spec sheet...RPM accuracy +/- 1 RPM.
They're frequently available on eBay.

[mrfixxall]

Carl, I know I mentioned this before, but a Fluke 78 http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+78.htm?catalog_name=FlukeUnitedStates
will do what you want. It's a nice piece of equipment to have. See the spec sheet...RPM accuracy +/- 1 RPM.
They're frequently available on eBay.

got the 88 and the 98..nice stuff..back in the late 90's they sponsered our alcohol dragster so i ended up with a few..

[Carl C]

The thing is I've already got tons of tools. Even a scope. There should be a tach sending wire in the diagnostic connector. I guess if my stuff won't work I'll need to update.

[blackhawk]

Carl, call Brett at BBlades propellers and tell him what your boat is doing and what you want it to do. He will give you some good, honest input. The Mirage Plus leaves some on the table for changed handling AND top-speed. Or he may recommend a different prop. He also has a demo program.

http://www.bblades.com

[Carl C]

Carl, call Brett at BBlades propellers and tell him what your boat is doing and what you want it to do. He will give you some good, honest input. The Mirage Plus leaves some on the table for changed handling AND top-speed. Or he may recommend a different prop. He also has a demo program.
http://www.bblades.com Thanks. BBlades has been recommended often here and is a company I will for sure consider. As suggested though, first I'll make sure all is OK with my motor. I need a cool dry day to test on. Jack Frost? Just one cool dry day please.

[smokediver]

carl , the laser 2 won't work ... way too much slip on your kind of horsepower .. been there done that with my 16 ... not trying to be a butthead here but say after all this crap you pick up 2 mph ... to me , it really isn't worth it ... after putting stupid power in a 16 , i can't tell you how much i enjoy getting in a bone stock 18 and just going for a ride ... you're never gonna find that perfect prop ... there is always going to be something else ... do what poodle suggested about checking the tach , and just enjoy the ride man !!!!!

[BigGrizzly]

I wouls love to sell you a prop but I am with Smoke and Poodle on this one, at least till tach is verified.

[blackhawk]

Thanks. BBlades has been recommended often here and is a company I will for sure consider. As suggested though, first I'll make sure all is OK with my motor. I need a cool dry day to test on. Jack Frost? Just one cool dry day please.

Carl, if you were hitting the rev limiter right at 5000 that tells me your tach is 150 rpm off. Also, your numbers would make more sense. 73mph at 4850rpm is only 5% slip but at 5000 rpm you are at 8%.

I have used some portable tachs that go around a spark plug wire that work okay. However without test equipment you can simply bang it off the rev limiter with a smaller prop and adjust the tach accordingly. Find out if that warning beep at 5000 rpm was indeed the rev limiter. If it was adjust the tach accordingly.

I don't think you have an issue with low power. I think your tach is reading 150rpm too low.

[Carl C]

Carl, if you were hitting the rev limiter right at 5000 that tells me your tach is 150 rpm off. Also, your numbers would make more sense. 73mph at 4850rpm is only 5% slip but at 5000 rpm you are at 8%.
I have used some portable tachs that go around a spark plug wire that work okay. However without test equipment you can simply bang it off the rev limiter with a smaller prop and adjust the tach accordingly. Find out if that warning beep at 5000 rpm was indeed the rev limiter. If it was adjust the tach accordingly.
I don't think you have an issue with low power. I think your tach is reading 150rpm too low. Buizilla said 5050. I think he meant that is when the buzzer sounds, the rev limiter goes into play at 5150. Buizilla, is this correct? If so my tach is within 50 rpm. I'm sure the buzzer was the rev warning since I've never had it go off before and temp, oil and fluids are good. Regardless of whether the tach is wrong the fact is that my top end has increased very little if any. I'm working on it. I appreciate the help.

[BUIZILLA]

Carl, it is not unusual within the industry for over the counter dial tach's to be off 2-3%. In fact, that's usually a given. For one to be off 50 rpm, is literally the width/thickness of the needle, or less, and at 75 mph you can't reed the fvcking thing anyways... so why are you sweating this??? you NEED to figure out why $5000+++, plus incredible sweat, got you ZERO top end speed return for your investment, with the same prop you started with. You've had the boat going on 3 seasons and just now you think the tach is off because you installed some CMI's???

you stated yesterday that the proven Turbo prop, that everybody else uses, only got you 65 mph which means it suddenly lost 8-12 mph over anyone elses trials... :bonk:

I don't get it... sorry. :spongebob:

In other words, change the water in your bong, put down the beer, and figure out what went wrong and where. :pimp:

I think you've confused the hell out of ALL of us at this point.

[98shovel]

can the 496 ajust fuel for the increase in exh flow or does the ecm need to be mapped for all the changes that wher made

[Pismo]

You didn't gain any speed because you are against the rev limiter, so that's that. 400hp at 5150rpm with a 25" prop is the same top speed as 950hp at 5150rpm with the same 25" prop....

[blackhawk]

His rpm is more important now because he needs to determine if he's against the rev limiter. Like pismo said it doesn't matter how much hp you have you can only go so fast as a certain rpm.

Also, like I said on speedwake don't expect too much of a top-speed increase from the headers on a bone-stock engine. I think 2 mph is all they're good for with the right out of the box prop.

I don't know how a 496 rev-limiter works. You can tell when you're banging off my limiter on my 502. You need to determine if you're there. Or just try to find a larger prop to borrow.

[Ramman]

When i first got my baja it ran 55mph, I sent my prop (23 pitch mirage) to DAH propeller out of wisconsin and the boat ran 63 mph. From what i get from john the owner he does all the blue printing for mercurys props... Then I had mr.fixall do some tweeking to my motor (cam, heads, intake) and that got the boat to 69 MPH. Not to bad for a 4800 Pound boat with 1200 hours on it...

[Carl C]

Carl, it is not unusual within the industry for over the counter dial tach's to be off 2-3%. In fact, that's usually a given. For one to be off 50 rpm, is literally the width/thickness of the needle, or less, and at 75 mph you can't reed the fvcking thing anyways... so why are you sweating this??? you NEED to figure out why $5000+++, plus incredible sweat, got you ZERO top end speed return for your investment, with the same prop you started with. You've had the boat going on 3 seasons and just now you think the tach is off because you installed some CMI's???
you stated yesterday that the proven Turbo prop, that everybody else uses, only got you 65 mph which means it suddenly lost 8-12 mph over anyone elses trials... :bonk:
I don't get it... sorry. :spongebob:
In other words, change the water in your bong, put down the beer, and figure out what went wrong and where. :pimp:
I think you've confused the hell out of ALL of us at this point. Alright let's get this straight. I never said my tach was off, everyone else is telling me it is. Before I installed the headers I talked about it here and it was determined that I'd be lucky to gain 2 mph but that I'd gain more midrange and it would be a good up-grade for future mods too which will probably be supercharging. This summer has been hot and humid and I'm still running mid 73-74. I think I picked up about 1 mph. Buiz, the Turbo was a 14 1/4 x 24 which is way too small for my boat. I tried it deliberately so I could experience the rev limiter. Frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with my boat but I will put in new spark plugs and fuel filter anyway since they are original. When the weather breaks I'll know better where I stand because I have more baseline readings to compare. I like the driving characteristics of the M+ and would still like to know how many rpm I should pick up if I go labbed with the same pitch (25). Since I now know that my rev limiter warning sounds at 5,000 indicated rpm and my top speed is now @ about 4,850 rpm, I'd like to pick up 100 rpm or a bit more. One more question: is the Turbo a better top end prop and which prop gives more bow lift? I will call Mercury Marine for info and may contact BBlades. I always appreciate the help here and respect your guys knowledge but this thread brought so many different responses it's no wonder everyone's confused. So the bong water is fresh, the beer put away and I'd still like to invest in a labbed prop even if I only gain 1 mph.

[blackhawk]

Carl, call Brett. He will gladly take 5-10 minutes and talk to you.

[mrfixxall]

Alright let's get this straight. I never said my tach was off, everyone else is telling me it is. Before I installed the headers I talked about it here and it was determined that I'd be lucky to gain 2 mph but that I'd gain more midrange and it would be a good up-grade for future mods too which will probably be supercharging. This summer has been hot and humid and I'm still running mid 73-74. I think I picked up about 1 mph. Buiz, the Turbo was a 14 1/4 x 24 which is way too small for my boat. I tried it deliberately so I could experience the rev limiter. Frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with my boat but I will put in new spark plugs and fuel filter anyway since they are original. When the weather breaks I'll know better where I stand because I have more baseline readings to compare. I like the driving characteristics of the M+ and would still like to know how many rpm I should pick up if I go labbed with the same pitch (25). Since I now know that my rev limiter warning sounds at 5,000 indicated rpm and my top speed is now @ about 4,850 rpm, I'd like to pick up 100 rpm or a bit more. One more question: is the Turbo a better top end prop and which prop gives more bow lift? I will call Mercury Marine for info and may contact BBlades. I always appreciate the help here and respect your guys knowledge but this thread brought so many different responses it's no wonder everyone's confused. So the bong water is fresh, the beer put away and I'd still like to invest in a labbed prop even if I only gain 1 mph.

Carl,have your prop labbed by DAH!! a mirage + prop is a sqirlly prop and from what i understand from some of my custs they prefer a standard mirage that has been labbed finished..if your going to super charge your engine why waste the money on another prop when your going to have to replace it anyways? you say you gained more midrange,,,what rpm's? that tells me you mover your power band down a few hundred rpms so why would you want to run your engine at 5000 rpms..call john and have him add a little cup and knife edge the blades,reballance and polish it..you wont be dissapointed:yes:

[blackhawk]

I think you've confused the hell out of ALL of us at this point.

Carl hasn't confused anyone. Everyone else has confused Carl. :bonk:

[mrfixxall]

Carl hasn't confused anyone. Everyone else has confused Carl. :bonk:


RITE!!!! Just trying to help the guy out,,he spent a ton of money and got ooooo for it..i kinda hate seeing people get ripped off..i charged ramman 2200.00 and he gained what 6 mph,,thats what i like to see :) a happy customer..

[Ramman]

Damn Right!!

[osur866]

Just my .02 maybe try a 27p mirage plus labbed if he is that close to the limiter and he likes the way the mirage plus handles, would be good for future upgrades anyway. Steve

[blueliner]

Just my .02 maybe try a 27p mirage plus labbed if he is that close to the limiter and he likes the way the mirage plus handles, would be good for future upgrades anyway. Steve

thats what i have and i love it!!!

[Pismo]

Remember a Turbo 25" will spin higher RPM than a M+ 25"

[Carl C]

I guess a prop thread is going to bring out a lot of opinions and emotions. To address a few questions and propositions: OK the laser II is out and that leaves a 25M+, 27M+, Turbo, Turbo TXT, 25M. 98shovel, I don't need to recurve my fuel since it comes a little fat from the factory. I will change my fuel filter since that could be partially blocked by now-new plugs too. Pismo, I'm not on the rev limiter and that's why I did the experiment w/the little turbo to be sure. There is a warning horn before the limiter kicks in. Blackhawk, you nailed it by saying that you are lucky to gain 2mph on a 22C from headers alone. I don't feel ripped off, it's Teaque that makes the outrageous claims and not CMI. Mrfixxall, thank you for the help and I'll consider your prop guy but to be honest BBlades comes up here all the time as the place to go. The SC is a couple years away if at all and I'd like a top shelf prop now. I think Ramman must have had more serious set-up problems if you found him 6 mph for $2,200. I will inquire about a 27 M+ but it would need to be reworked; see post #8. And, yes, I'm aware a 25 Turbo will spin faster than a 25M+ (smaller diameter?). So to sum up at this point. I'll make sure everything is OK with my motor, do a little more testing in more normal Michigan weather which is right around the corner and then talk to Brett at BBlades. Whew, this wasn't as easy as I thought it would be but I do thank everyone for their help and input.:)

[BigGrizzly]

Scott I remember that artical, it was a 454. I think it was in Trailer boats. There was one on CMIs too with a 454 also and netted the same speed increases with their E-tops, which lead us to dyno many different hedder types. The results showed me that until you really get above 600 ponies the Stainless are the bang for the buck. Well off to Eufaula I go.

[blackhawk]

Err, hmm, I dont have the article here, but a 454 (I think, could have been a 502) 22 Classic picked up 3 - 4 mph with the installation of Stainless Marine exhaust.. Test was very cool, boat was run stock, pulled out of the water. The exhaust swap was done at the ramp, then they splashed it and ran again.. I believe I have posted it before, no time to look though.. If I have time over the weekend I'll look for it...
Sorry, not kicking ya Carl, just pointing out something is wrong here...

In the real world there is 2mph to be had on most boats. Yes, some boats will pick up more, but some will pick up less. I researched this extensively and talked to a lot of people that put exhaust on their stock 454/502 mags and 496s. Better than half gained ZERO to 1mph top-end. Carl did some research too and had realistic expectations, he is now looking for the "right" prop.

[Carl C]

Err, hmm, I dont have the article here, but a 454 (I think, could have been a 502) 22 Classic picked up 3 - 4 mph with the installation of Stainless Marine exhaust.. Test was very cool, boat was run stock, pulled out of the water. The exhaust swap was done at the ramp, then they splashed it and ran again.. I believe I have posted it before, no time to look though.. If I have time over the weekend I'll look for it...
Sorry, not kicking ya Carl, just pointing out something is wrong here... Scott, I respect your opinions and knowledge here more than anyone else's. One factor is that the '05 HO was the last year with the aluminum exhaust. The ports in these manifolds are huge and they're really light. I think this is one reason I haven't seen a big increase. My package was running good stock at low to mid 70s. Some people are reporting several mph with new exhaust and some are reporting almost no gain. One factor has to be what you are starting out with. I'm very close to BaldEagle who is running a similar set-up. Also all of my testing so far has been in less than ideal conditions. I don't think anything is wrong but I'm taking your advice and checking things out and will change fuel filter and plugs and probably check compression while the plugs are out. If when the weather gets back to normal I can hit 75 regularly then I will have found the speed increase I was hoping for but I think I mainly added mid-range punch. Also I added weight with the headers. And I am on fresh water. I will do this work and a little more testing and then work with someone to find my best prop. The best boat deserves the best exhaust and prop even if the gains are minimal.

[smoothie]

JMO...your pretty much spinning your wheels here until you do the complete package...BTW where can ya buy a bong anymore...

[Carl C]

JMO...your pretty much spinning your wheels here until you do the complete package...BTW where can ya buy a bong anymore... No more bong hits for me, those things will blow your lungs out! Pretty easy to make your own though! I want to wait until the motor needs freshening up to go all the way. I want to add a pro-charger but also beef up the innards. Particularly the pistons. I don't see what's wrong with wanting to find my best prop. I think I'm really close to consistant 75 mph and I can live with that for a while.:)

[Carl C]

The hipo guys have had better results, but you aint there yet..
:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:You just wait a couple years when you'll be wiping my rooster tail off your sunglasses.:)

[boxy]

:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:You just wait a couple years when you'll be wiping my rooster tail off your sunglasses.:)

That's not really a fair fight Carl, Poodle's Critter only has a little 289 in it :eek!::eek!:

[smoothie]

Well then if you just want to play...confirm your tach and send out your M+ to a good prop shop for a lab job...no need to buy another one,they can change pitch,dia,cup and anything else you desire.

[Carl C]

Well then if you just want to play...confirm your tach and send out your M+ to a good prop shop for a lab job...no need to buy another one,they can change pitch,dia,cup and anything else you desire. I will be in touch with Brett at BBlades soon when I'm ready. Who'd of thunk that props are in the same catagory as swim platforms, windshields, colors, etc.! Even though this thread jumped around a lot I did get a lot of info from it. Thanks to all, including the guys who sent PMs.:propeller:

[bob haver]

ENUFF SAID :propeller:,,,,,,,,,,:yes:

[Air 22]

ENUFF SAID :propeller:,,,,,,,,,,:yes:


I Second that...:yes::yes:

[roadtrip se]

:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:You just wait a couple years when you'll be wiping my rooster tail off your sunglasses.:)

and good luck, but please remember this game never ends. You might want to put on your safety goggles instead of your sunglasses!

Yet another skunkworks season is fast approaching....

[smoothie]

I third that! the Bravo one has always had mixed reviews but I like mine.

[Carl C]

ENUFF SAID :propeller:,,,,,,,,,,:yes: I thought the Bravo one was for boats with a high X-dimension? I will keep it in mind though when I call BBlades.

[blackhawk]

I thought the Bravo one was for boats with a high X-dimension? I will keep it in mind though when I call BBlades.

A bone stock Bravo lifts the stern too much(for most people) on these type of hulls. But there is a lot that can be done to them. I have talked to a few people that swear by a labbed Bravo that has some bow lift put into it.

And yes a lot of people go to a 4 blade after they install a shorty or raised X for better bite.

[DonCig]

A bone stock Bravo lifts the stern too much(for most people) on these type of hulls. But there is a lot that can be done to them. I have talked to a few people that swear by a labbed Bravo that has some bow lift put into it.
And yes a lot of people go to a 4 blade after they install a shorty or raised X for better bite.
Just to keep the flame going; a bone stock 24 Pitch Bravo 1 was the ticket on my boat; but I can say that I did not test every flavor of prop made.

Don

[BERTRAM BOY]

:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:You just wait a couple years when you'll be wiping my rooster tail off your sunglasses.:)


Now, That's just good comedy !!!!!!!!!

[Dr. Dan]

Scott I remember that artical, it was a 454. I think it was in Trailer boats. There was one on CMIs too with a 454 also and netted the same speed increases with their E-tops, which lead us to dyno many different hedder types. The results showed me that until you really get above 600 ponies the Stainless are the bang for the buck. Well off to Eufaula I go.

Yep..it's all true...why I put some E-Top CMI's on my boat and the damn thing picked up over 20 mph? Now that is some bang for your buck right there, I don't care who you are.... :bonk:

Doc of Stock HP500 EFI Don't Ya Know :wink:

[Lenny]

Yet another skunkworks season is fast approaching....

ya got THAT right ;)

You WILL see me more in the New Year in far away places, and a boat in tow :D

Todd, can I get you a tissue ???

:D :D :D
;)

[RedDog]

Ya know, since ya never attend an event I'm not to worried..
But, just in case you actually do decide to show up...
Why, I'll just have to break out the 16 then won't I :eek: :eek: :yes::yes::lightning

Ya gotta love the sound of smack :eek!:

[Air 22]

I thought the Bravo one was for boats with a high X-dimension? I will keep it in mind though when I call BBlades.

Carl..you might invest a phone call to well known marine industry leader in performance propellers...MERCURY RACING-Propeller Division:wink:. If you are serious about a labbed prop and the results to expect from 3, 4 blades etc..then PM me. I will put you in touch with the top guy at Merc Racing. No bs... just facts from the pro's to help you make an informed decision.

The rest is up to you...good luck and let us know what works for you!:wink::yes:

[Carl C]

Carl..you might invest a phone call to well known marine industry leader in performance propellers...MERCURY RACING-Propeller Division:wink:. If you are serious about a labbed prop and the results to expect from 3, 4 blades etc..then PM me. I will put you in touch with the top guy at Merc Racing. No bs... just facts from the pro's to help you make an informed decision.
The rest is up to you...good luck and let us know what works for you!:wink::yes: PM sent. Thanks.

[Pismo]

Carl..you might invest a phone call to well known marine industry leader in performance propellers...MERCURY RACING-Propeller Division:wink:. If you are serious about a labbed prop and the results to expect from 3, 4 blades etc..then PM me. I will put you in touch with the top guy at Merc Racing. No bs... just facts from the pro's to help you make an informed decision.
The rest is up to you...good luck and let us know what works for you!:wink::yes:

Which labbed 26 prop do you have?
Thanks

[Carl C]

ENUFF SAID :propeller:,,,,,,,,,,:yes:

I Second that...:yes::yes:

I third that! the Bravo one has always had mixed reviews but I like mine.

A bone stock Bravo lifts the stern too much(for most people) on these type of hulls. But there is a lot that can be done to them. I have talked to a few people that swear by a labbed Bravo that has some bow lift put into it.
And yes a lot of people go to a 4 blade after they install a shorty or raised X for better bite.

Just to keep the flame going; a bone stock 24 Pitch Bravo 1 was the ticket on my boat; but I can say that I did not test every flavor of prop made.
Don And the winner is................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................A factory labbed 26p Bravo 1 from Mercury Racing is on the way from Teague. I will do some testing with it and send it to Mercury for tweaking if need be. A lot of thought and research went into this decision and the final deciding factor was my discussion with Dwight (Air 22). I should have the prop in time to do some testing next week. Stay tuned for results. I appreciate all of the input here.:propeller:

[Rootsy]

Ya know, since ya never attend an event I'm not to worried..
But, just in case you actually do decide to show up...
Why, I'll just have to break out the 16 then won't I :eek: :eek: :yes::yes::lightning

darn, I knew I should have kept the 16... I could have taken a day off and given the yellow 22 a much needed wash... :wink:

[Carl C]

darn, I knew I should have kept the 16... I could have taken a day off and given the yellow 22 a much needed wash... :wink: OK, enjoy it while you can 'cause for now I'll settle for 75 mph but one of these days..........................There will be one badass yellow 22C that everyone will be gunning for!:)

[blackhawk]

And the winner is................................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................A factory labbed 26p Bravo 1 from Mercury Racing is on the way from Teague. I will do some testing with it and send it to Mercury for tweaking if need be. A lot of thought and research went into this decision and the final deciding factor was my discussion with Dwight (Air 22). I should have the prop in time to do some testing next week. Stay tuned for results. I appreciate all of the input here.:propeller:

What does "factory labbed" mean? Do they take specific information on your boat? Since every boat/driver is different I am a FIRM believer in getting the prop labbed for YOUR boat!

[Carl C]

What does "factory labbed" mean? Do they take specific information on your boat? Since every boat/driver is different I am a FIRM believer in getting the prop labbed for YOUR boat! I believe that it just means it is polished, blueprinted and thinned. The price includes one free "tweaking" which will customize it to my boat. I will do some testing with it in different conditions and send it to Mercury Marine in Wisconsin to get my rpms where I want them and perhaps correct other conditions. If I get really lucky it will be fine out of the box. On Mercury's web site "prop selector" this prop is said to provide the best handling and top end for my boat. I'm sure this board will agree unanimously on that.:wink::wink: Air 22 has done extensive prop testing on his boat which is similar to mine and was kind enough to discuss his findings with me on the phone. I had to make a decision and I hope I made the right one.:crossfing::propeller:

[blackhawk]

I believe that it just means it is polished, blueprinted and thinned. The price includes one free "tweaking" which will customize it to my boat.

That's what I figured. I think you're going to want some bow lift built into that prop. I had to trim the Bravo to the moon to get my boat to loosen up. The Rev4 worked MUCH better!

Remember the stepped bottom guys like the stern to lift. We want the stern to suck down and lift the bow to get air under the boat for more speed.

[Rootsy]

OK, enjoy it while you can 'cause for now I'll settle for 75 mph but one of these days..........................There will be one badass yellow 22C that everyone will be gunning for!:)

Don't forget... the 18 isn't finished... yet... http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/outtahere.gif

[BigGrizzly]

Doc If I remember correctly when you put on the ETops there was a HP500 attached to them. The E Tops are very close to the tube ones. I went with the tubes because we built the engine around them. I am really want to know what the real increase with the Bravo Boyz labbed over the stock or some other props on the same conditions.

[BigGrizzly]

Carl you can have the target to put on your back, catch 22, Mr X and I are tired. Just remember to beat any one of us it will take real cubic Dollars. Btw I don't use labbed props. Catch us if you can!

[Carl C]

That's what I figured. I think you're going to want some bow lift built into that prop. I had to trim the Bravo to the moon to get my boat to loosen up. The Rev4 worked MUCH better!
Remember the stepped bottom guys like the stern to lift. We want the stern to suck down and lift the bow to get air under the boat for more speed. This is one thing I discussed with Dwight and he and I both run in rough water. He on the ocean, me on the Great Lakes. This prop is said to provide superior handling in rough water. This is more important than those few times that I'm looking for that last extra mph which is really only when I'm racing someone. Several others highly recommended the Bravo 1 also. I'm pretty excited to get it and see what it does. Remember, it's not that I didn't like your advice; I had to put it all together and make a decision.

Don't forget... the 18 isn't finished... yet... http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/outtahere.gif I hope she's running by spring; I'm looking forward to seeing it. Right now I don't care about being the fastest. I bought new for reliability and settle for middle of the pack.........for now. Meanwhile you won't find a better LOOKING 22C anywhere!:)

[Sweet little 16]

OK, enjoy it while you can 'cause for now I'll settle for 75 mph but one of these days..........................There will be one badass yellow 22C that everyone will be gunning for!:)


there already is a yellow one up in lake george that everyone is gunning for,
not to mention the guy who had the volvo driven X 18 up there that ran high 70's now has a 600 hp plus 22 classic who knows where this one will stop !!!
;)
if i could just get the knuckled head I am married to to give up the classic thingy a ZR is the only way to fly

[boxy]

if i could just get the knuckled head I am married to to give up the classic thingy a ZR is the only way to fly
Be careful what you wish for, all of a sudden some of the old timer's will start calling you a big boat snob ......

[blackhawk]

Remember, it's not that I didn't like your advice; I had to put it all together and make a decision.

Carl, I didn't take it that way at all. We all need to make decisions based on our needs and specific goals. I was just giving you a heads up that you will probably need some bow lift put into it.

I run my Rev4 in the bigger water for the same reasons. My Mirage is still faster and gets put on when I know I'll only be in the 1-2' chop. :D

[Air 22]

:wink:
Doc If I remember correctly when you put on the ETops there was a HP500 attached to them. The E Tops are very close to the tube ones. I went with the tubes because we built the engine around them. I am really want to know what the real increase with the Bravo Boyz labbed over the stock or some other props on the same conditions.

Griz...I will post the numbers of my labbed Merc 26 Bravo 1 when similar conditions exist this fall. ie 60-70 deg weather..The diff will be No IMCO Shorty.

In Sarasota Bay@ 2006 Rally I ran your 25 Turbo Fusion in 90+ temps spun only 46-4700 rpm 65-66gps at best. The prop was great on the open ocean. I was running the IMCO Shorty to boot.

This summer in NC on a local lake 96 degree's 4900rpm(Max 5200) I hit 71.2 with my Standard Bravo Drive. With cooler temps comming...the RPM will go up thus the speed. The numbers I ran with your prop were with a SHORTY Drive thus not equal to my standard Bravo Drive. All things being equal...a shorty drive should be 3-5mph faster. It is what it is..I'd like to get my own shorty one day...but the one I had was loaned in good faith. My numbers with a labbed prop are better. IMO...Labbed props ...any brand do make a difference over the same stock prop...the question is do you want to spend the $$...Some do...some don't..its a choice each of us has to make...Taking your Turbo Fushion having it labbed I'm sure would produce very similar numbers as the props seem very similar. I did alot of research and went with Mercury Racing (who knows a little bout this stuff..)...but that is MY choice..like Ford vs Chevy..its a preference... Each has to test test test as I did and make a choice or choices depending on driving skills, conditions, etc...heck its half the fun trying them out..:wink:

If you find me a shorty on loan..I'll try more...lol:wink:
As for now..I'm Very happy with my prop...:yes:

[BigGrizzly]

This is exactly the stuff I want to hear.

[Carl C]

Well I got the new Mercury Racing labbed 26p Bravo 1 today and did some quick testing. I'm on the rev limiter at 72.2 mph. With my 25p M+ I was running consistant 74.3 at about 5,050 rpm. I'm thinking that's almost enough to go up to a 27p. I'll do more testing tomorrow and will get in touch with Air 22. Otherwise I really like this prop. I don't think I need any mods except more pitch. Do I need to go to a 27 or can Mercury add the pitch I need to this one? I'm looking to run 75-76 at 5,050 rpm. Any thoughts?

[blackhawk]

Well I got the new Mercury Racing labbed 26p Bravo 1 today and did some quick testing. I'm on the rev limiter at 72.2 mph. With my 25p M+ I was running consistant 74.3 at about 5,050 rpm. I'm thinking that's almost enough to go up to a 27p. I'll do more testing tomorrow and will get in touch with Air 22. Otherwise I really like this prop. I don't think I need any mods except more pitch. Do I need to go to a 27 or can Mercury add the pitch I need to this one? I'm looking to run 75-76 at 5,050 rpm. Any thoughts?

Adding pitch is tough. Taking it away is easier. There are other ways to reduce rpm though.

Remember a Bravo 26 is actually closer to a 25 pitch prop.

[BUIZILLA]

i'm trying to understand how a 4 blade 26 turns that much stronger than a 3 blade 25??

whatever's in the baggie...... send me some...

[blackhawk]

i'm trying to understand how a 4 blade 26 turns that much stronger than a 3 blade 25??
whatever's in the baggie...... send me some...


A Bravo 26 is technically a 25 pitch 4 blade prop. When labbing a Bravo you can typically expect a 200-300rpm gain, however 300-400 is not uncommon, depending on what was done to the prop. But he should be seeing better speeds IMO.

[roadtrip se]

i'm trying to understand how a 4 blade 26 turns that much stronger than a 3 blade 25??
whatever's in the baggie...... send me some...

I ran the Mirage 29 and the Bravo 28 back-to-back a week or so ago.
Both are heavily labbed. The Bravo seems to have been modded for bow lift.

Water conditons were 1-2-ers, the air was heavy and hot in the mid-90's, and fuel was roughly 3/4.

Both ran right on identical at 77-78 at 5200 rpms. I still think there is more in the Bravo with a little tweaking on the tips to get the nose up, but it is a borrowed prop.

The Bravo pulls the boat up faster, has much better mid-range, better grip with no lean, and the same top end. I'm impressed. I am looking for one more chance to run both in ideal fall conditons. It does all of this better than the Hydromotives I own.

As for the labbing concept, I have run two different Mercury labbed Bravo 28s. The one I still have is interesting, the other one was abysmal. An out of the box, one size fits all, lab job just doesn't exist. For this reason, I probably would work with my prop tuner and skip the Merc stuff.

[Carl C]

A Bravo 26 is technically a 25 pitch 4 blade prop. When labbing a Bravo you can typically expect a 200-300rpm gain, however 300-400 is not uncommon, depending on what was done to the prop. It's spinning way faster than the 25 M+. The blades are smaller and shaped different. I think I need to swap for a 27 if there is one and then have it reworked. I'd have to pay shipping and maybe the 10% restock fee.:( This prop is really sweet though and I think the right pitch will get me where I want to be. Dwight, are you here?

[roadtrip se]

and I sincerely doubt, you are going to turn it with a 496HO.

And I would strongly advise against re-pitching a prop. It just doesn't work and your re-stocking fee will seem darn cheap, when you are staring at a worthless $1000 labbed prop. I have the lesson on my mantel here in Kentucky from the time I tried it.

I am also confused by your statment of turning the Bravo "faster" than the Mirage. As Buiz said, pass the baggie please. While I agree with you,
see above, that the Bravo has potential, it may not be the right prop for your boat and custom designing one via labbing may or may not be the answer. I would try some other things, before sinking any more cash into a Bravo.

[Air 22]

It's spinning way faster than the 25 M+. The blades are smaller and shaped different. I think I need to swap for a 27 if there is one and then have it reworked. I'd have to pay shipping and maybe the 10% restock fee.:( This prop is really sweet though and I think the right pitch will get me where I want to be. Dwight, are you here?


Carl...send it back...GET the Merc Labbed 27 and RUN IT!!!!: Period

If you do not get enough rpm's send it to Merc. They WILL get u 200-300rpm or less if needed. Call me when you have run the 27 with numbers..:wink:

DO NOT HAVE THE 26 RE-PITCHED:eek!:

[blackhawk]

It's spinning way faster than the 25 M+. The blades are smaller and shaped different. I think I need to swap for a 27 if there is one and then have it reworked. I'd have to pay shipping and maybe the 10% restock fee.:( This prop is really sweet though and I think the right pitch will get me where I want to be. Dwight, are you here?

I would call Merc and ask them. In reality the props should be spinning similar rpm and running similar speeds, depending on what was done to the Bravo. If the Bravo is spinning a lot faster something isn't right IMO.

And I agree if you can send it back I would. But a 10% re-stocking fee blows, especially when that is the prop they recommended.

A labbed 28 bravo with a little pitch taken out MAY be the ticket. But as others have said it's an expensive gamble.

[blackhawk]

Carl I am swapping my Rev4 25 for a BBlades labbed 28 with some bow lift put into it this week. I am sure it will lug my rpms down a little but I am interested to see how it handles compared to the 26s I tried. I'll let you know.

I also have a standard Mirage 25 you are welcome to try. It was faster than a M+ 25 with 200 more rpm. Which is typical.

[Carl C]

Carl...send it back...GET the Merc Labbed 27 and RUN IT!!!!: Period
If you do not get enough rpm's send it to Merc. They WILL get u 200-300rpm or less if needed. Call me when you have run the 27 with numbers..:wink:
DO NOT HAVE THE 26 RE-PITCHED:eek!:Thanks, that's what I'll do if one is available. Todd says the next size is 28p. Blackhawk, thanks for the input. The help is appreciated. The drug innuendos are not.

[Air 22]

Thanks, that's what I'll do if one is available. Todd says the next size is 28p. Blackhawk, thanks for the input. The help is appreciated. The drug innuendos are not.
Carl..Todd has a SHORTY and A HP500..you have a 46HO...start w the labbed Merc 27... if one is not avail..call me:))

[Carl C]

Which part of "they come in even pitches ONLY" don't you guys follow??
I'm gonna need a blood transfusion shortly from biting my tongue... Scott, I don't know why this is getting everyone so upset?:boggled:Teague is in California and won't open for a couple more hours. The only one on the East coast I've been able to contact now is Pier 57 and they "think" that the labbed Bravos are available in every pitch but I need to call back. I'll just wait and contact Teague later and find out. I have decided to try this prop if I can get it in the right pitch (rpm range). I was happy with the handling characteristics of this prop and want to try one. It's my money and if I'm out a thousand bucks then oh well.:boggled: I am not poor. Everything is on hold for now untill I talk to Adrian at Teague (Yo, Adrian). Thank you for not accusing me of being on drugs or I'd also need a blood transfusion.:boggled:

[BigGrizzly]

You can lab it to odd pitches but it really becomes a different prop.What I don't understand, is I have well over 650 hp and turn a 3 blade 28 and a 29 to 86 at 5200 Rpms. and have gone bravo rout and am not impressed, ie slower. Granted hulls differ but at over 80 they are the same in the wetted area. I am really want to see a real number comparison in rpm going up to top speed. I won't go to the testing on the same day because you guys don't have different props available. However that is the only way you will know.

[blackhawk]

Bravos are sold in even pitch numbers only. 24, 26, 28, etc.

However, BRAVO PROPS ARE STAMPED ONE SIZE BIGGER THAN WHAT THEY REALLY ARE. In other words a Bravo 26 is a 25 pitch, a 28 is a 27 pitch, etc.

So, Carl yes you will have to go up 2 pitch increments to get the next sized Bravo. IMO you will need to have more done than just the "generic lab" to get into your rpm range. Talk to Mercury Racing, give them the scenario and get their opinion.

Like I said before the Bravo is one of the best cantidates for "labbing" because there is a lot that can be done to it. Labbed Bravo props can vary GREATLY from one to another.

[Carl C]

You can lab it to odd pitches but it really becomes a different prop.What I don't understand, is I have well over 650 hp and turn a 3 blade 28 and a 29 to 86 at 5200 Rpms. and have gone bravo rout and am not impressed, ie slower. Granted hulls differ but at over 80 they are the same in the wetted area. I am really want to see a real number comparison in rpm going up to top speed. I won't go to the testing on the same day because you guys don't have different props available. However that is the only way you will know. I assume you are running a Turbo? My boat felt like it was airing out the same as with the M+ and it was still accellerating when I hit the limiter at 72.2 mph. That's 3 mph from my goal and I think the power is there. Also there is a mid 80 mph 22 on my lake that looks like it has a Bravo 1. I tried to talk to him but his son came down to the dock and said he is out of town. I'll snap a photo today since I will be on the water. Grizz, while I'm looking for 75 mph top end I am also looking for a prop that will keep the boat more level while cruising at high speed in rough water. I'll get more info today. Meanwhile evryone should try not to get upset. This is a discussion about propellers, not Iraq. Peace.:lookaroun:

[Stevo440]

If we are talkin about Labed props from Mercury Racing then here is info just copied from Merc Racing web site:
Mercury Racing propeller specialists have enhanced the performance of the three- blade Mirage Plus, four-blade Bravo I and five-blade Maximus propellers to strategic Lab Finishing specifications for maximum performance. Lab Finishing Technicians lab finish these popular Bravo One, X, XR and Sport Master sterndrive propellers by thinning propeller blade surfaces in specific areas, modifying the leading and trailing edges and balancing the propeller all for maximum efficiency. The propellers provide top performance in a variety of performance boat applications. The Mercury Racing Lab Finished Mirage Plus propeller is designed for vee bottom applications requiring bow lift. Offered LH and RH rotation in 23" - 29" pitch.
The Mercury Racing Lab Finished Bravo I propeller offers great planing performance, excellent mid-range speeds and awesome top end speeds, The Bravo I propellers are designed for Cats and step bottom boats looking for the ultimate top end speeds and are available in LH and RH rotations with one-inch incremental pitch sizes, ranging from 22" to 36".
The recently introduced Maximus five-blade is working it's way to being one of the best performers for step bottom boats offering incredible slip reduction capabilities... translation, eye popping planing performance, jaw dropping mid-range speeds and with many applications increased top end speeds over the Bravo I propeller.
The Maximus is offered in 15 5/8" diameter for go fast step Vee bottoms with high "X" dimension. This large diameter coupled with shortening the diffuser ring is a Poker Runners winning combination. The 15 1/4" diameter is offered specifically for the Shortly Sport Master where gearcase clearance is critical. The 15" diameter is a must for the awesome performance Cats and part of the recipe for top end numbers is to also remove some of the diffuser ring minimizing stern lift all to hit the big numbers. Pitch range is 24" through 35" in one inch increments.
Hope this helps clear things up....

[Stevo440]

Part 2 if we are talkin about non-Labed bravo 1 props then this is what's available:
15-1/4 x 36 SS 4 832123A55 832124A55 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 34 SS 4 832121A55 832122A55 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 32 SS 4 831919A55 831920A55 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 30 SS 4 831917A55 831918A55 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 28 SS 4 831915A55 831916A55 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 26 SS 4 831913A45 831914A45 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 24 SS 4 831911A45 831912A45 Bravo I
15-1/4 x 22 SS 4 831909A45 831910A45 Bravo I

[Air 22]

Which part of "they come in even pitches ONLY" don't you guys follow??
I'm gonna need a blood transfusion shortly from biting my tongue...
Scott...I just put a call into
Mercury
Racing...they make odd size pitch labbed props 27 29 etc...:):)

[Carl C]

Scott, I always welcome and appreciate your input. Please check this post from Blueliner: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showpost.php?p=424168&postcount=1 where he says "boat has been unable to beat my best speed pre-CMI headers". I also received a PM from BaldEagle who also just installed CMIs on a 496 HO and he said "I haven't seen a lot of performance change yet. 1 mph top end & some mid-range". You should be able to access my PMs; feel free to read it. I did pick up about 1/2 mph and some mid-range punch. The boat accelerates like a rocket. My friend last night commented that "most cars can't even push you back into your seat like that". I respectfully disagree that there is something wrong with my boat.

I also just talked with someone at Teague Custom Marine, not Adrian but he seemed quite knowledgable. The labbed Bravo 1 is available in every pitch #. He also said that the labbed 26 is equal to a 24p and also that each pitch increase on the labbed Bravo 1 will drop my rpms 125-150. Therefore they recommend a 28p factory labbed Bravo 1 which should bring my rpms down about 250-300 and that this prop would be equal to a 26p prop. This makes sense to me and I can then ship the prop to Mercury Racing to be tweaked if need be and there will be no charge except for shipping.

Regarding your last paragraph; if that is the case then why do they sell factory labbed props? Right now I am leaning toward returning the prop and taking the $110 loss for re-stocking fee and shipping and ordering a factory labbed 28p Bravo 1 which should get me real close to where I need to be and then I can send it to Mercury for fine tuning which I understand is free on a labbed prop (1 free tweaking only). Now I am waiting for more input from Teague, Mercury Racing, Dwight and you.

Hopefully I was able to say all of this in a manner that makes some sense so that you won't also think I'm on drugs.:wink:

Now I am heading out on the boat to enjoy this beautiful day and make some phone calls from out there. If you'd like, you could call me at 248-330-0048. Thanks for putting up with me.:)

[blackhawk]

"Factory Labbed" props work if you DO NOT want to change any handling characteristics of the prop. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. In a nutshell they balance the prop and thin the blades which equals more rpm.

[Rootsy]

I always like to get a baseline with a material safe piece of equipment before I go whittling on it... but... what do I know....

[Carl C]

I'll figure this out. I never thought a prop thread would turn into this. I think the posting guidelines should say no religion, politics or propellers!:rlol: I do appreciate the input but it seems maybe I've got to work this out myself. I did more testing today and I'm pretty consistant on hitting the limiter at 72 mph. I snapped a pic of the prop on this 22C that runs mid 80s. It looks close to a Bravo 1 but doesn't appear to have any flair on the hub. Does anyone know what it is?

[chappy]

Does anyone know what it is?

Yes, irrelevant.....................compared to what is under the hatch if that thing is running in the 80's.:biggrin.:

Rich

P.S. No offense guys, just thought this marathon could use a smile.

[BigGrizzly]

It id a hydromotive, about 27 pitch

[Carl C]

Yes, irrelevant.....................compared to what is under the hatch if that thing is running in the 80's.:biggrin.:
Rich
P.S. No offense guys, just thought this marathon could use a smile. N/A BBC according to him. This boat really is fast. He flies by me with a full boat load and I go 74. Someone told me he is using Nitrous and I plan to talk to him more when I see him out there.:) You're right about the smile.

[BigGrizzly]

Now people cool your jets. The point of the thread was what prop to use. When you want to state an opinion that is not subjective there should be facts. rpms Vs mph(GPS) if not GPS it doesn't count. My Corsican ranges between 65 and 75 mph, and it definitely does not go 70mph! Sounds like Teague is selling merc labed props. What bothers me a 26 pitch Bravo is a 24 by one person and a 25 by another. Which doesn't relate. here is a form that may help.

[BaldEagle]

Carl:
Nice to see everyone is in agreement. As I mentioned in my PM I have experienced similar results. 22', Bravo X, 496HO, CMIs. I was running a Turbo 25 last year and hit 73.8, this year with the CMIs and a 25M+ hit 75. I tried a labbed 27M+ and it was nice for cruising but I got less top end. I have learned the trim better with the K-Planes and will try the labbed 27 again, probably next year after I get the hull crack repaired (Ill start another thread at another time on that). I also feel like it is running rich and I only get the 4900 Rpm. Have the Tatletale GPS. have a scanner. I'm with Poodle on this and I think there is something else going on with this combination that needs to get solved. Maybe plugs, maybe mixture, dont know yet but eventually will find out. These engines should be making more HP and rpm with this set up and for some reason they like to stop at 4900 rpm.
I did see the clip on You Tube where Donzi was saying with the new GT engine hatch they were able to raise the X dimension by 2" and they get over 80 mph with the 496HO. I got a GT engine hatch, Hummm.

[mrfixxall]

Carl:
Nice to see everyone is in agreement. As I mentioned in my PM I have experienced similar results. 22', Bravo X, 496HO, CMIs. I was running a Turbo 25 last year and hit 73.8, this year with the CMIs and a 25M+ hit 75. I tried a labbed 27M+ and it was nice for cruising but I got less top end. I have learned the trim better with the K-Planes and will try the labbed 27 again, probably next year after I get the hull crack repaired (Ill start another thread at another time on that). I also feel like it is running rich and I only get the 4900 Rpm. Have the Tatletale GPS. have a scanner. I'm with Poodle on this and I think there is something else going on with this combination that needs to get solved. Maybe plugs, maybe mixture, dont know yet but eventually will find out. These engines should be making more HP and rpm with this set up and for some reason they like to stop at 4900 rpm.
I did see the clip on You Tube where Donzi was saying with the new GT engine hatch they were able to raise the X dimension by 2" and they get over 80 mph with the 496HO. I got a GT engine hatch, Hummm.


so that means if you put a imco shorty that is 2'' shorter then stock your boat wil go 80?

[BigGrizzly]

Big Grizzly
PERFORMANCE PROPELLERS
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Prop Testing
Date:
Temp:
Humidity:
Water Surface
Wind:
Test 1: Prop Type/Size:__________________
Trim/Hole Position:
RPM Speed
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5000
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Handling Comments:
Test 2: Prop Type/Size:__________________
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[Carl C]

Since this thread will not die anyway I thought I'd check in. I don't think there is an issue with the CMIs but I'm awaiting a call back from a tech anyway. I'm also waiting for a call back from Mr. Steiner at Mercury Racing. I will return the 26 Bravo 1 and ask Mr. Steiner if he agrees that the 28p will drop my rpms 250-300. If so I think this prop will work well for me and I will hit consistant 75 mph. MadPoodle, I did take your advice earlier and checked my plugs, fuel filter, throttle opening, all connections, etc. I also changed the oil. Please take into account that I'm at 1,000 feet and on fresh water which could take away 3 mph from boats running on the ocean. I don't think the Shelbys are hitting 80 mph. On the ocean, in perfect conditions maybe but not consistantly. We're going to hit 85* today:yippie:and I will be back on the water. I will take and make my phone calls from the lake. When I try to figure my prop slip I get a decimal like .067. How do I figure prop slip as a percentage number (like 10%)? Thanks.:)

[Rootsy]

multiply by 100 or just plug your info into the online calulator at go-fast.com

[Stevo440]

Simple formulas
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(RPM) X (Prop Pitch) / ((GEAR RATIO) X 1056) = THEORETICAL MAXIMUM MPH
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( (THEO MAX MPH - ACTUAL GPS MPH) / THEO MAX MPH) X 100 = Percent Slippage
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Or just go to any prop calculating website and use their plug and play boxes...

[Sweet little 16]

this thread is like an urban legend
or some kinda of alter universe
if a 28 pitch labbed bravo is more like a 27 pitch why not call it a 27 run that thru a calculator and it looks like it is a very inefficient prop at 28
the only thing clear here is
props only get you so far
headers don't get you anywhere on a stock setup
a shorty and alot more hp gets you there much quicker
and call it a day if you are mid 70's with 5% slip with stock power on a 22
so hopefully someone can get this in a readers digest version to make it easier to understand????

[yeller]

I'm finding the whole thread very interesting. Thanks Carl. I'm in agreement with you that there is nothing wrong with your motor. The stock 496 exhaust flows extremely well.

The only thing I have to add is I think the restocking charge is bulls*** if your getting another prop from them. There's plenty of places that'll swap props without charging a restocking fee. Teague is now on my list of places NOT to deal with.

[Carl C]

Yeller, maybe Mercury Racing will work with me. If not I'm only out $110.

Sweet Little 16, I couldn't agree more!:)

Stevo440, I did use a calculating site.

Rootsy, that's what I needed, thanks.

Now I'm off to the lake with the M+ back on for now.:boat::)

[blackhawk]

Wow, 2212 views and 128 replies! Who would have thought a prop thread would cause so much controversy! LOL

[Ranman]

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p205/oakranda/wtfareyousmoking.jpg

[undertaker]

Carl, I think I might agree with Poodle only because in my application with my new Dana's I was HARD on the limiter actually got the buzzer to go off:eek!::eek!: with my stock prop, had to go up a pitch size with the new exhaust. Now I only gained 2 mph with a lot more mid range also, but did have to go up in prop pitch size, in your case you could not turn your stock prop anymore with the CMI'S than you did with stock exhaust that right there I find very interesting.

Sorry to say but I am kind of glad I went with the Dana's for less jing, than the CMI'S because the performance results so far seem marginal IMO for the about of jing they cost ya. Good luck in your continued prop testing.....you should really stop listening to Dwight (Air22) he only knows things about the color RED:wink::):wink::)

Undertaker:pimp:

[BigGrizzly]

The prop restocking charge is because people try your props than go to internet to find it cheaper then send it back and buy from the web site. I now only deal with recommendations and Donzi net guys. I called a internet site and asked what if the prop doesn't work, they said no problem send it back to the manufacture. Bet those! guys liked that! I prefer to deal with the supporters of this web. Call me onesided, you bet.

[blackhawk]

I have to admit $110 is a little steep for a prop they recommended! Make sure you politely remind them of that. :D

[Carl C]

Pass that bad boy over here, maybe that's what I need.:rlol: I had a long talk with a CMI rep. I'm not going to repeat it all here because this is a prop thread but there are no mods required to the EFI, etc. Teague will not take the prop back even for exchange and minus 10%. My only option there is to try to get ahold of Bob Teague on Monday or Tuesday and try to get him to break policy. Mercury Marine will not take it back either. This paper packed with the prop says it can be returned and may give me some legal rights. I told Adrian at Teague that they better start removing these forms from the prop boxes. If I'm stuck with this prop I'll see if Brett at BBlades can save it. Anyway this is just an update. I'll work it out and it'll be OK so we needn't debate it here. Worst case I'll have a really neat paper weight for my desk.:rlol: I'm sorry about this thread going all over the place and maybe it's time to deep six it!:pimp:

[blackhawk]

Carl, where did you buy the prop? Teague? And I'm confused are you saying neither place will take it back or only Teague will take it back with a 10% fee?

[Carl C]

Carl, where did you buy the prop? Teague? And I'm confused are you saying neither place will take it back or only Teague will take it back with a 10% fee? Scott, at this time no one will take it back at all. Teague Custom Marine's policy is "No exchange or returns on any propellers or mufflers". Mercury Racing says the prop cannot be returned to them, except by the selling dealer. I'll try to contact Bob next week but he is a busy man with his racing and all. There may be other options. Meanwhile I don't want to piss off my friends here with this never ending thread. It'll work out. Now where'd that bag of pot go?:wink:

[blackhawk]

Scott, at this time no one will take it back at all. Teague Custom Marine's policy is "No exchange or returns on any propellers or mufflers". Mercury Racing says the prop cannot be returned to them, except by the selling dealer. I'll try to contact Bob next week but he is a busy man with his racing and all. There may be other options. Meanwhile I don't want to piss off my friends here with this never ending thread. It'll work out. Now where'd that bag of pot go?:wink:

I'm sure it will work out. Just a FYI Brett has a program where for $25 he lets you try the prop. If it doesn't work you simply send it back. Plus I think his labbed Bravos are around $900. Sorry I just thought I'd rub it in a little! :D

[boxy]

Carl, does the "return" paperwork say that any prop worked on by Mecury Racing or any other person may not be returned?
If it's a Mercury Racing Labbed prop would that mean they don't have to take it back?

[Carl C]

Carl, does the "return" paperwork say that any prop worked on by Mecury Racing or any other person may not be returned?
If it's a Mercury Racing Labbed prop would that mean they don't have to take it back? Steve, the document I posted on #134:eek!:is strictly for Mercury Racing Propellers and at the bottom is a section called "Propeller Return Procedures". Mercury will buy back the prop from Teague less 10% to check and repackage it but Teague's policy is to just not take them back.:boggled::propeller:

[BigGrizzly]

Just one more reason not to like labbing. BTw once a prop is labbed it should not be reworked.

[BUIZILLA]

I can't resist.....

let me try and understand something...

Merc sells a 26" prop, that's really a 25", and since it doesn't perform how a 26" should perform, on a calculator and in real world testing, they won't take it back because it's not what they sell it as??

then why the hell don't they just sell it as a 25" in the first place ??

[osur866]

I think if there is any lesson to be learned here is to find a stock prop that you like, use it for a while and if you need a few more rpm or want to have it balanced do it after your sure you have found the right prop and are close to where you need to be. Can exchange a stock prop easily or sell outright if it dosen't work out. Just my .02 Steve

[boxy]

...the paperwork clearly states if the prop is modified my Mer or anyone else...
That's all I was trying to say .....

[blackhawk]

I think if there is any lesson to be learned here is to find a stock prop that you like, use it for a while and if you need a few more rpm or want to have it balanced do it after your sure you have found the right prop and are close to where you need to be. Can exchange a stock prop easily or sell outright if it dosen't work out. Just my .02 Steve

That is a good theory and for the most part I agree. However, certain props can handle MUCH differently after being labbed and the Bravo is one of them. A stock 26 handled horrible on my boat but a 26 labbed was much better. A lot of handling characteristics can be added/removed from the Bravo.

In Carl's defense a labbed 26 should be running more speed. :confused: I am honestly not impressed with 72 mph at 5150 rpm.

Hopefully Teague will work with him and make it right.

[Carl C]

MP, Teague did not say anything about a return policy. I guess I should of asked. This prop has not been modified. It is an out of the box factory labbed prop. The mod exception is for props that have been reworked. Mercury will take it back, I talked to them, but it has to be returned by the dealer, not directly by me. I will be making some noise and hopefully will get it exchanged. Excuse my prop ignorance here but I'm a former outboard guy and my prop choice used to be real simple: Mazco RE3. I'm sorry about this cluster**** thread and that it reads like I'm on drugs. Thank you to all who responded and provided advice here and especially those who called and PM'd me with advice. It will all be OK. I'm going to try and close the thread in order to keep the peace here.:)

[BigGrizzly]

Blackhawk, there are many props out there that handle better than the stock Bravo and a lot that handle as well as a modified Bravo. I know this to be fact because in my previous job I tested 10ndreds of props on various boats. The stock Bravo has never been my choice. As for pitching the stock bravoI is short compared to almost all other makers, the M+ is a tad larger. So when slip is used there is no constant to be had just relativity. Sorry about the Teague experience. AS everyone knows I am for off the shelf stuff especialy at $1,000.

[blackhawk]

I do not see where closing the thread accomplishes anything Carl.. The thread, while "interesting" at times, has provided some good information to folks here, and may also help others in the future..
Albeit, occasionaly at your expense. If I was you I'd be making a list of those who owed me beers down the road.. You may not live long enough to collect em all...

I agree! Yes the thread got a little heated at times but there is some good info in here if someone wants to take the time to weed through it.

What many don't grasp about props is the fact that it's not purely science. And when you take into consideration the large amount of variables there is no way to look at them all on PAPER and say "This is the best prop". Hull design, X dimension, extention boxes, shorties, hp, desired rpm, water conditions, driver preference, etc ALL play a role in finding the best prop. Then add in modifications to a prop and the possibilities are endless. Yes, there are some experts out there that can make suggestions and many times they get it right the first time. Other times they don't. The only that is certain is, "You don't know for sure until you try it".

[Carl C]

I do not see where closing the thread accomplishes anything Carl.. The thread, while "interesting" at times, has provided some good information to folks here, and may also help others in the future..
Albeit, occasionaly at your expense. If I was you I'd be making a list of those who owed me beers down the road.. You may not live long enough to collect em all... Thanks Scott. No one owes me anything though. Everyone here is great.

[blackhawk]

Blackhawk, there are many props out there that handle better than the stock Bravo and a lot that handle as well as a modified Bravo.

I understand this. My response was directed at the fact that sometimes it is difficult to try a stock prop and decide if you like it enough to get it labbed. I wasn't comparing the Bravo to other props. My point was simply the handling can be MUCH different between a stock and labbed Bravo.

My Rev4 handles better than both the stock and labbed Bravo I tried on my boat. However, I am still going to try a Bblades Bravo since I have the opportunity.

[yeller]

The prop restocking charge is because people try your props than go to internet to find it cheaper then send it back and buy from the web site.I have no problem with restocking fees if you're returning a prop. I may have misunderstood, but I thought Carl wanted to exchange the prop. If you're exchanging and it is returned "as new", I don't agree with restocking fees.

Now as far as Carls engine.....we all know the CMI's don't really add the claimed hp. The Dana's have been dyno'd @ 21hp increase, so let's say the CMI's add 30. Is 30hp really enough increase on a 400hp motor to bump his rpm 200 or so? I personally don't think so.
I think the fact that Undertaker had to increase prop size is unique and Carls situation is more the norm. Just my opinion.