Running Hard and Fast in Rough Water

[DOOZI]

Attempting to keep Bias aside," I know it is hard " But Really, is there anything comparable or better than a 22 Classic Donzi for Running Hard and Fast in Rough Water. I am only speaking of 20 to 24 foot V hull singles. I want to build a boat and I have a realistic budget to do so out of the proceeds of the sale of my 466 Bertram FDMY. Where I live it is a good eve. run to go to Louisville about 40 miles each way and that last 10 miles is usually real rough water for around here, 2' maybe common at times. I have had Baja's from 19 to 29 and bigger was better but I think the Donzi hulls might help them act a little bigger and I still want to out run some locals in the 78 to 79 range I here.
I would like to here opinions on is my thinking sound on a 22 classic or is there another model I should be looking at for my intended purpose.
I am competent to re-do a boat top to bottom or just re-power a nice hull if that is the route. It would be my preferance to not have to dedicate the needed hours this winter into a big project but would if it turned out to be truley the best in the end.
I would like to here about options as I have done a good bit of high horsepower drag racing and am addicted to power.

Doug...

[Lenny]

..PANTERA 24.. bulletproof and an old design that we see here under different names...

;)

Single, a Big Block, go for big ponies, Ride it like you would your.... ;)

[Carl C]

I vote for the 22C in your size range. Since it is really 22.5' and has no swim platform or beak it is equivalent to some 24s. I run mine fast and hard on the Great Lakes. Go with the Donzi for your project and you'll have no regrets.:wink:

[Sweet little 16]

the 22 will be more recognized at the docks but Lenny hit the nail there the pantera or can you say SUPERBOAT a 21 or a 24

[DOOZI]

Two !! nods for Pantera, What is the additional attraction if you don't mind. Please don't think I am too lazy to search as I will settle in for that this evening and do so anyway.

I Love the Big Chevys but currently have been racing with prochargers and turbos the last few years and have an all aluminum dart Small block motor that would love to act like a Big Block with the help of a couple small to mid sized turbos. Is the lighter weight powerplant sitting in the tail of the boat of significant advantage to justify the added complexity. I guess the same questiion goes for an all aluminum big block too as I allways have guys I know going bigger on those and setting them aside too.

I know I see a lot of talk about getting the CG back farther in the boat but is it traditionally optimized or will the lighter powerplant be a CG advantage as well as a weight advantage. I guess better said, has anyone ever been able to move the CG too far back, when I think of fast outboards I would think not. Sweet Spot ???

Doug...

[Carl C]

IMO a small block making big block power will not live long but you could always call Dr. Trippledigits.:wink: Wait a while and I bet you get more votes for the 22C.

[DOOZI]

My experiance with extreme horsepower small blocks does come 4 to 5 seconds at a time so I am sure your right, I am just not sure how hard or long I could beat on one before it become an issue. Annual freshening would be ok but big booms would not. The big blocks are well proven.

[Sweet little 16]

the real question is how fast and how rough

the 21 superboat will be a low 80's boat with the right clamp on and better handles any water the 22c can handle

the pantera 24 or superboat 24 will not be as fast but will handle much rougher water than the 21 or 22c I would imagine if Donzi made a modern 24 classic it would be very much like a Pantera

the other option is not that common but has some big water blood in her a 22 apache

or if speed is not your craving, you can go for a 28 cig and not worry about spilling your snack platter when it gets really rough

[chappy]

http://www.proroc.com/pantera.htm
Rough water beast.
Rich

[Lenny]

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/9/8/89506698.htm

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/8/89319988.htm

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/4/89066304.htm

[The Hedgehog]

I used to boat those waters every weekend when I lived in the Louisville area. I have done the ride to Madison a few times as well. Thats a very nice day.

I had a 27 ZX but would not have flinched to run the roughest section (Near Captains Quarters and toward town) in a classic 22 at hihg speed. I have seen plenty do it in generic bowriders but they did not look like they were having a good day.

The 22 will do it any day. I will also agree that the Pantera is built like a fortress and would probably take a little rougher water.

[blackhawk]

Another vote for a Pantera! But I am a little biased. :D

Actually a 22C handles the snot well IMO. A 22C with sit down bolsters, rear passenger bolsters, K-planes, full hydraulic steering and 500hp with lots of grab handles would be a sweet set-up! :yes:

[BUIZILLA]

how BIG of a small block are we talkin' here??

[BigGrizzly]

I am bias for the donzi, don't see any difference on my lake Lanier between the 2, road both. Theory says the pantera should be better We also have 24 foot Pythons on the lake and they are in the same boat as the 22.

[Carl C]

40 miles each way and that last 10 miles is usually real rough water for around here, 2' maybe common at times. I had to check that I wasn't on Pantera.net! :rolleyes: Doozi is talking 2' chop here. That is an absolute blast in a 22 cruising about 65 mph.:yippie:3' chop is no problem either and 4' is doable but slower.:cool: I run in 2-3 footers on the Great Lakes a lot now.:) Most, if not all, of the fast ones are BBs making big hp (over 500hp). Boat motors spend a lot of time making near peak power while car motors spend a few seconds there. You need a physically big motor in addition to cubes for reliability. This is all JMO, but go with the 22. I have an '05 with 496 HO and go 73-75 mph stock.

[blackhawk]

I agree the 22C is a very capable hull. My main complaints about mine were the swivel seats and snap in rear seat. That rear seat drove me nuts! :banghead:

And it all depend on how rough we are talking about as well. Are we talking about 1-2' chop or ROUGH? :D

[DOOZI]

I got a 408 small chevy and a 428 ford windsor based engine with a turbo on it that will pull 1600 on the dyno without a strain. It would seem that backing it down to 7 or 800 would make it's life expectancy grow by a good deal. The way it is set up now it will make maybe 200 passes between freshen ups and that will only be needed because of a mistake in tuning, it is conservative at this time. Guys are making in the 2000's with the same long block so that has to speak to the durability of the parts to some extent. Both are all aluminum Dart blocks but the chevy would be more available and the more likely choice for a boat. It is currently in a Jeep for offroad and trail riding at this time and would require a new rotater before ready for boat duty. The ford is pictured below when it was in mock up for my current race car. Turboing in a boat would require much smaller twins instead of this big single.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1278/4344996/9163193/227333588.jpg

[DOOZI]

Guys, please check out the questions I posted in the whatever section about an 82 model 22 on EBAY at this time. I might ?? rather build from this kind of starting point that just buy a pristine boat and start modifing it. I do all work myself and really get a kick when someone asks about it cause it is a little different or older but still sweet. This would obviously be a gut and re-do deal.

[roadtrip se]

Just another consideration.

Since this is Donzi.net and not Pantera.net, I vote for the 22 Classic too.

Not taking anything away from the Pantera, but to attack anything over 2-3's in a small, single V isn't really happening except on the docks and the chat rooms.

If I was going to attack anything bigger, I would be starting at 28 and up with twins for a get-me-home motor and the length to start spanning the big water.

22 to 24 isn't going to give you much more capability.

By the way, I wouldn't go back to twins over the Classic for anything. Too much work, too much money, and not enough adrenaline. Too much.

[Cuda]

By the way, I wouldn't go back to twins over the Classic for anything. Too much work, too much money, and not enough adrenaline. Too much.
Nothing like the sound of two BBC's running through pretty good seas. Believe me, although the ride is not bone jarring, there is still plenty of adrenalin to be had.

[roadtrip se]

Nothing like the sound of two BBC's running through pretty good seas. Believe me, although the ride is not bone jarring, there is still plenty of adrenalin to be had.

Been there done that, got the t-shirt, skipped the gold chain collection, and moved on about seven years ago. I will admit there was some adrenaline on the big water, but the four hour pre-flight kept me from enjoying it as much as I should have...

[Cuda]

Been there done that, got the t-shirt, skipped the gold chain collection, and moved on about seven years ago. I will admit there was some adrenaline on the big water, but the four hour pre-flight kept me from enjoying it as much as I should have...
We used to take it out practically every weekend when we lived on Tampa Bay. Little to no preflight preparations, and maybe an hour of post flight maintanence. We've only run it a handful of times since we moved here to Deland, but mostly because we boat on the river. Twin BBC's were the ticket in a heavy boat for running in the gulf or the big bay. Ask Buizilla how much fun it is crossing the mouth of the bay in a 22. I believe his words were, "Never again".

[Cuda]

Here we are coming back from a poker run in Sarasota, crossing the bay near the Skyway. That's a Cig 38 flat deck running next to me. It was rough to say the least.

[Sweet little 16]

yeah I thought this was donzi.net I thought i logged onto fishstory.com or "ish".com we haven't heard from the I boat in an 18 in 5 footers yet ;)
Todd said it correctly no one is saying the 22 is not capable hull but to think it is the end all is being too much of a homer and not being objective there are other designs in that size range that have some pretty impressive racing records
the other option albeit not as fast with the same power would be a non stepped zx boat but they also suffer from some of the issues that blackhawk mentioned or a stepped hull zx faster but with a new learning curve

[ITTLFLI]

Come up to Cincy and ride with me in my 22. I have about what you are looking to build and run downtown Cincinnati all the time! Then you can decide!

Byron
513-470-8480

[blackhawk]

Not taking anything away from the Pantera, but to attack anything over 2-3's in a small, single V isn't really happening except on the docks and the chat rooms.

Tell that to Scotty B who drives, throttles and tabs his PLEASURE boat himself with a navigator. :D But I agree the average high performance boater won't be.

I know this is a Donzi site and I wasn't trying to step on toes. As many of you know I owned a Donzi for 5 years and loved it!

I was simply answering Doozi's question with my opinion. A 22C is as good as, or better than a Pantera in 1-2 chop. After that the Pantera(and others) will have the advantage just because of set-up. The boats were designed for 2 different purposes IMO.

[DonCig]

Tell that to Scotty B who drives, throttles and tabs his PLEASURE boat himself with a navigator. :D But I agree the average high performance boater won't be.
I know this is a Donzi site and I wasn't trying to step on toes. As many of you know I owned a Donzi for 5 years and loved it!
I was simply answering Doozi's question with my opinion. A 22C is as good as, or better than a Pantera in 1-2 chop. After that the Pantera(and others) will have the advantage just because of set-up. The boats were designed for 2 different purposes IMO.

That photo looks even rougher than the Lake Of The Ozarks on the 4th of July.
My back and neck both hurt by just looking at that turbulent water.

[Cuda]

You should see what ScottyB drives now.:eek!:

[BigGrizzly]

A long time ago in a place far away.

[glashole]

:)I obviously also vote for the 22, if you are only running 2 ft chop a 16 will run just fine and be a great time in the process

pound for pound the 16 is the most fun on the water- for the driver

to answer your question a friend of mine runs a 24 Warlock with BBC and it seems to run quite well in the chop without much pounding and has quite a bit more room than the 22

I would thing the 24 Formula would be good boat as well

keep in mind running over 80 can get $$$ with any boat

[Cuda]

:)I
I would thing the 24 Formula would be good boat as well

Yes it would. I loved my 242.

[RickR]

In my opinion (1000 hrs in a BBC 18 Classic and 1000 hrs in a BBC 22 Classic ,lots of the time offshore in the gulf ) running "Hard and Fast" in a 22 Classic in a "true" rough 2 foot sea will BEAT YOU TO DEATH. You are sitting down and the 22 has reverse chines.
BUT if you drop the speed down to the mid 20s and run the tabs (12x12) a little below neutral, she'll ride fine:yes:

A 2 or 3 foot swell is a different story, YEEEEEEHAAAA!!!!!

[smoothie]

Come up to Cincy and ride with me in my 22. I have about what you are looking to build and run downtown Cincinnati all the time! Then you can decide!
Byron
513-470-8480

Take the "test" ride with Blue Thunder...he will make you a believer:yes:

[zelatore]

Well, I haven't been on the Ohio in probably 20 years (grew up near Evansville), and I've only had my 22 for a few months now but I might as well add my 2 cents.

On the bigger stretches of the rivers out here in the delta it gets pretty sloppy - similar to what I remember on the Ohio oh so long ago. A real 2' wind chop. And while you might have some fun driving it, your passenger had better be a really good sport as (s)he is going to get the snot beat out of him/her.

I think a lot of people tend to exagerate the conditions. 2' of wind chop is pretty hard on the 'ol back when you're sitting down! While I think the 22 hull rides really good for it's size, you have to compare apples to apples. If I was really worried about sloppy conditions, I'd want a higher boat and drop bolsters so my knees could take the pounding instead of my spine.

[zelatore]

BTW, since nobody said anything, that's a sweeeet looking aluminum Ford! :propeller:

Forget about all this fancy chrome and painted covers and all that stuff....I'll take a 'fabricated' look and some plain 'ol aluminum any day!

[Carl C]

I just went on a 80 mile round trip on Lake St. Clair, the entire Detroit River and a bit of Lake Erie. My average speed was about 60 mph. Anyone who boats these waters will verify that there are huge boat and ship wakes that come up with no warning. I wish I had video of the run because I spent plenty of time in the air. A bigger boat is really called for here but for a 22 footer my little Donzi held it's own and was pretty impressive. The only thing sore is my neck!:)

[dclassic]

Not to hijack this thread but this is an interesting discussion as we have been contemplating another boat like some of those mentioned. We love our 22 classic and don't think we could bear to sell it, but we have contemplated getting something for a different purpose. On Lanier during the weekend there is enough slop to get your teeth kicked in and during the week it can be as smooth as silk. We would like somthing a bit more family oriented so here is the debate. Do you boat during the week and get a nice little 18 classic or maybe even a Chris craft 20 Speedster and take advanatage of the nicer water conditions and have a huge fun factor or... Do you get something like a Donzi 27 ZR or a Pantera 24 or 28 and boat whenever you want? If so, will a 24 or 28 take the bigger water much better than a 22? If you go that big, do you lose the fun factor? Afterall this is still a lake, not the ocean. How much more of a boat do you need than a 22 to take bigger water faster? I would love to hear some thoughts from the folks with first hand experience. Thanks in advance.

[The Hedgehog]

Not to hijack this thread but this is an interesting discussion as we have been contemplating another boat like some of those mentioned. We love our 22 classic and don't think we could bear to sell it, but we have contemplated getting something for a different purpose. On Lanier during the weekend there is enough slop to get your teeth kicked in and during the week it can be as smooth as silk. We would like somthing a bit more family oriented so here is the debate. Do you boat during the week and get a nice little 18 classic or maybe even a Chris craft 20 Speedster and take advanatage of the nicer water conditions and have a huge fun factor or... Do you get something like a Pantera 24 or 28 and boat whenever you want? If so, will a 24 or 28 take the bigger water much better than a 22? If you go that big, do you lose the fun factor? Afterall this is still a lake, not the ocean. How much more of a boat do you need than a 22 to take bigger water faster? I would love to hear some thoughts from the folks with first hand experience. Thanks in advance.

I don't have any seat time in a 24 but a ton in 22's and a 28 footer. My 27Zx spanks the lake stuff. The smaller boats are a hoot to run. Comparing the two are apples and oranges. If you want to go out all day on Sat and Sun in a big lake there is nothing like a big boat. Listening to a blown big block spool up is like no other. I have recently made the choice to get an 18 for running around and keep the big boat

[Gearhead99]

30828


The 22 Donzi handles the slop very good.


I had a 24 Cigarette that you couldn't kill. Has two more feet then the Donzi and is built Cigarette solid.

[Cuda]

Do you get something like a Donzi 27 ZR or a Pantera 24 or 28 and boat whenever you want? If so, will a 24 or 28 take the bigger water much better than a 22? If you go that big, do you lose the fun factor? Afterall this is still a lake, not the ocean. How much more of a boat do you need than a 22 to take bigger water faster? I would love to hear some thoughts from the folks with first hand experience. Thanks in advance.
As I said, I have a Formula 302 with twin Kaamas (surface piercing drives), and it is much nicer to ride in the rougher stuff. Contrary to RT's beliefs, there is still enough adrenaline action to make it fun without having to pick up your teeth.

Given your choices, I'd pick a 28 Pantera with a big single. I was rafted off to a buddy of mine who has one, and it's damn near as long as my 302. He has a 650 Innovation engine in it, and you can believe he has fun in it. It will run 82~84.

His is Dangerkitty, and the one with the eyes on it is another friend of mine with a 28 that has twins in it. The picture of my boat was the same day I took the picture of Dangerkitty. As you can see, it was fairly rough that day. We were running about 55~60 in that picture.

[jjdiv]

Not to hijack this thread but this is an interesting discussion as we have been contemplating another boat like some of those mentioned. We love our 22 classic and don't think we could bear to sell it, but we have contemplated getting something for a different purpose. On Lanier during the weekend there is enough slop to get your teeth kicked in and during the week it can be as smooth as silk. We would like somthing a bit more family oriented so here is the debate. Do you boat during the week and get a nice little 18 classic or maybe even a Chris craft 20 Speedster and take advanatage of the nicer water conditions and have a huge fun factor or... Do you get something like a Donzi 27 ZR or a Pantera 24 or 28 and boat whenever you want? If so, will a 24 or 28 take the bigger water much better than a 22? If you go that big, do you lose the fun factor? Afterall this is still a lake, not the ocean. How much more of a boat do you need than a 22 to take bigger water faster? I would love to hear some thoughts from the folks with first hand experience. Thanks in advance.
If you want an easily trailerable boat that can run 30 knts all day in 3 foot headseas take a look at this, 24 degrees at the transom and 6000 well balanced pounds:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330148089716&rd=1

[blackhawk]

Not to hijack this thread but this is an interesting discussion as we have been contemplating another boat like some of those mentioned. We love our 22 classic and don't think we could bear to sell it, but we have contemplated getting something for a different purpose. On Lanier during the weekend there is enough slop to get your teeth kicked in and during the week it can be as smooth as silk. We would like somthing a bit more family oriented so here is the debate. Do you boat during the week and get a nice little 18 classic or maybe even a Chris craft 20 Speedster and take advanatage of the nicer water conditions and have a huge fun factor or... Do you get something like a Donzi 27 ZR or a Pantera 24 or 28 and boat whenever you want? If so, will a 24 or 28 take the bigger water much better than a 22? If you go that big, do you lose the fun factor? Afterall this is still a lake, not the ocean. How much more of a boat do you need than a 22 to take bigger water faster? I would love to hear some thoughts from the folks with first hand experience. Thanks in advance.

IMO a Pantera 24 is one of the best in it's class for real rough water conditions. But, it is definitely not a "family" boat. Tight cockpit and small cuddy. Now, the 28 is a HUGE boat with a lot of room and will crush anything a lake can throw at it. But, they take some power to move them.

[DonziFreak]

my father used to race Off-Shore in a 28 pantera.....i broke apart on them and nearly drowned him:eek!:....then they stepped up to a 31 flat deck Cig, and they leaded the packs of boats at the start! til those bravo 2 drives fell apart (525 HP seems a little to much for em, haha)

[The Hedgehog]

my father used to race Off-Shore in a 28 pantera.....i broke apart on them and nearly drowned him:eek!:....then they stepped up to a 31 flat deck Cig, and they leaded the packs of boats at the start! til those bravo 2 drives fell apart (525 HP seems a little to much for em, haha)

What kind of water broke the Pantera? That sounds pretty heavy

[VetteLT193]

I think one of the best deals in the used market is the Formula 272 SR1.

The boat rides better because it is bigger and heavier (obvious) but it isn't so much the way the hull and waves interact as it is the way the people interact with the boat. It's just different than the sit down only ride of a Donzi classic.

[DonziFreak]

What kind of water broke the Pantera? That sounds pretty heavy

the usual kinda s**t u see at the good races, its just that it was a standard 28 hull without the cabin and with a flat deck....so it was really back heavy, so they had a water tank installed in the front to try to balance it out, the water tank weakend the hull before the accident by bouncing around and breaking thru the port side, and they had it repaired, but i was'nt strong enough, they broke a 4 footer and got airborne, then the stern tagged another 4-6 footer and the bow came down hard and fast, next thing he knew BLAM!, hes under water and under the deck of a boat that was broke in two.....

[cutwater]

Cuda - I really like your "other friend's" Pantera with twins.

Just to stir things up... Popcorn is on the house... I've always wanted a 27' Magnum. How does the rough water handling and build quality of the Magnum compare with the Pantera? I seem to remember Brownie a while back having high praise for the Magnum. Has anyone ridden in both?

[Lenny]

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/6/3/88945463.htm

Great price... ;)

[blackhawk]

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/6/3/88945463.htm
Great price... ;)

That is a STEAL! It not being a pleasure set-up is the only downfall.