View Full Version : I'm going in
I pulled the valve covers off the HP today to have a looksee. So far, I'm happy with what I've found.
Here's the port bank.
Starboard bank.
I inspected each spring with a flashlight, and didn't see any broken ones.
The valve covers look like new inside.
A couple of close ups of the rocker arms.
A shot of the distributor drive, and the lifter valley.
I've never fooled with a roller cam, lifters, or roller rockers before. What's the next step to remove the rocker arms?
Btw, I oiled all the springs and rockers down, gave a couple squirts in the spark plug holes, and it turned over smooth as owlsh!t.
mrfixxall
07-22-2007, 08:56 PM
Zero lash and just break loose the poly lock(rocker arm nut) and they slide off.:wink:
VetteLT193
07-23-2007, 10:17 AM
Zero lash and just break loose the poly lock(rocker arm nut) and they slide off.:wink:
It's been a while since I've worked with those crane race series rockers, but I think there is an allen bolt lock in the center of each bolt, you loosen that, then the bolt. That may be what mrfixxall was saying, but I wasn't sure:)
I loosened the set screws with an allen socket, then used 5/8 with a 3/8 drive socket wrench to get them off. Once I pulled the set screws out, it was easy to break them loose about half a turn, then they came out with my fingers. I kept them in order, along with the corresponding pushrod.
Then I pulled the lifters out, careful to keep them in the original order.
None of the lifters showed any signs of wear whatsoever, but a couple of the cam lobes have me worried. It seems the two with the most wear, are both intake lobes. A new cam might be a necessity.:(
None of the pushrods were bent, or sounded cracked when I'd rap them against the block.
Should I leave these on when I take the heads down to have the valve job done and the new springs put on?
Joe go the whole route do a complete rebuild, that 500 worked hard for 300 hours in a heavy boat, crank shaft loading is far more severe in big heavy boats.
Phil
BUIZILLA
07-24-2007, 07:25 AM
that cam is junk.... let's see the roller closeup's from those two corresponding lobes...
that cam is junk.... let's see the roller closeup's from those two corresponding lobes...
I checked those two rollers thoroughly. I couldn't see, or feel a thing wrong with them.
I'm thinking of going with this cam. It's the cam Merc uses in the 500 EFI. It's supposed to give a touch more performance.
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=169621&lvl=2&prt=5
Joe go the whole route do a complete rebuild, that 500 worked hard for 300 hours in a heavy boat, crank shaft loading is far more severe in big heavy boats.
Phil
I might as well go ahead and put new main and rod bearings in, pull the pistons and rering them, and lightly hone the cylinders myself. It's been sitting for seven months, so I'm in no hurry now. When I bought the engine, I was hoping to have it in the 22 by the time the Home Town Rally came around, but after work went in the ****ter, everything got put on hold.
BUIZILLA
07-24-2007, 08:33 AM
Cuda, I wouldn't use that cam...
also, pay attention to the remarks box concerning the lifters / lift comment
Cuda, I wouldn't use that cam...
also, pay attention to the remarks box concerning the lifters / lift comment
I'm pretty sure those are the lifters that are in it now, but not positive, I'll do more research. Any other cam suggestion?
BUIZILLA
07-24-2007, 09:25 AM
Joe, I don't have the latest Crane book here, so email me the links to the marine roller catalog pages.... you don't need 292-298 duration @ .610 lift avoiding sturgeons..
Joe, I don't have the latest Crane book here, so email me the links to the marine roller catalog pages.... you don't need 292-298 duration @ .610 lift avoiding sturgeons..
That's Budman that runs a slalom route with the sturgeons in the Suwannee. I just need to show Catch my transom. :eek!::wink:
That was a link that someone sent me for the cam.
mrfixxall
07-24-2007, 12:01 PM
Cuda Buiz is rite you dont need that much duration,,you will loose your drive abilty and it will idle like a pro stock...what is the centerline of the cam and the duration at .050? I think your pistons are maxed at 560 lift, you dont need any kissing of the valves with a 612 lift cam..
tmdog
07-24-2007, 06:24 PM
Cuda, You have read this guys posts on the other sites. He is Bob Madera aka Marine Kinetics. Custom made cam that will work for your particular application. Price is very modest for being custom made. Check him out and take the guess work out of it. I did.
Here's the specs on the stock HP 500 cam. Does it sound any better? Reading cam specs is all Greek to me. :(
Merc HP500 Carb
Crane Gen VI#169611 Grind#HR-284-2S-10IG
Adv 284, 292 at .004” Lift with 1.7 .576 / .598
At .050” 222, 230
ICL 105, ECL 115
LSA 110
Part Number: 169611 Grind Number: HR-284-2S-10 IG
Engine Identification:
Start Yr. End Yr. Make Cyl Description
1996 Up CHEVROLET 8 HYD. ROLLER WITH CAST IRON DISTRIBUTOR DRIVE GEAR
Engine Size Configuration
454-502 C.I. V
Valve Setting: Intake .000 Exhaust .000 HOT
Lift: Intake @Cam 339 @Valve 576 All Lifts are based
on zero lash and theoretical rocker arm ratios.
Exhaust @ Cam 352 @Valve 598
Rocker Arm Ratio 1.70
Cam Timing: TAPPET @.004
Lift: Opens Closes ADV Duration
Intake 33.0 BTDC 71.0 ABDC 284 °
Exhaust 77.0 BBDC 35.0 ATDC 292 °
Spring Requirements: Triple Dual Outer Inner
Part Number 99896
Loads Closed 150 LBS @ 1.900 or 1 29/32
Open 441 LBS @ 1.330
Recommended RPM range with matching components
Minimum RPM 2500
Maximum RPM 6000
Valve Float 6500
Cam Timing: TAPPET @.050
Lift: Opens Closes Max Lift Duration
Intake 6.0 BTDC 36.0 ABDC 105 222 °
Exhaust 50.0 BBDC 0.0 BTDC 115 230 °
Remarks:
CRANE 16535-16 LONG TRAVEL HYDRAULIC ROLLER- LIFTERS MUST BE USED WITH GREATER THAN .570 LIFT CAMSHAFTS TO PREVENT ALIGNMENT BAR DISENGAGEMENT.
mrfixxall
07-25-2007, 09:13 AM
Cuda, when you read thease numbers at .050 (At .050” 222, 230) this determines how the engine will idle.. the higher the number at .050 the more lope the idle will be, you also have ti take the lobe seperation into consideration too..anything under 110 begrees in a boat you will have trouble idleing at the reccomended idle speed..
Stick with the hp 500 cam, it has some good specs..if you want more lift you can always change the rockers to acheve that..
BUIZILLA
07-25-2007, 09:33 AM
actually, running those numbers confirms why Merc has issues with water intrusion in short runner exhausts. I'm sure it would work well with long tails, straight open tails or non-flapped divertors though.... you have sharp drop long tails I believe, the farther aft you introduce the exhaust water, the better you will be in the long run..
but for YOUR boating needs and the way Debbie runs HER boat :wink: I would drop down one selection in the Crane book or get a custom bumpstick with 222*-228* @ .050 and open the LS to 112-113* or so with an installed IC of 110-111*... lift at valve of .540-.560 w/1.7 rockers... the faster the ramp from .006-.020-.050-.200, the better the cylinder fill, carb signal and throttle response/torque.
I think I've done it this time. I think I rounded of the head on one of the head bolts. I'm cooling down, then I'll see if I can drive on the next smallest impact socket. Those damn bolts were tight. My airgun wouldn't break them loose, so I had a half inch breaker bar, and a two foot piece of black iron pipe to take them off. I didn't have my strongest set of glasses on, so I might not have had the socket all the way down. The extension, and the breaker bar didn't help keep it straight either. At least it's on the outside of the head, where maybe I can get a good swing at it with the ball peen hammer to drive the 7/16ths socket on. I have all the rest of them broken loose on that head.
Make sure you use a 6 point socket, take your time..
I was using a good six point. I think the bolt that I rounded the head off had some rust on it. Which is bigger, 12mm, or 7/16ths? I'd like to use 7/16ths, because I don't have impact sockets in metric. I like to use impact socket when taking something apart that's tight, even if I don't use the impact ratchet. I've broken sockets using a breaker bar and a piece of pipe. I've also broken sockets by trying to drive on the next smallest size. If I have to use a metric size, at least my six points are Craftsman, which they will replace for free if I break on trying to drive it on. Don't ask how I know that.:wink:
I'm feeling better now. I came in, got some food, and called my old boating buddy in Pinellas so I could gripe. He's had his own share of engine trouble in the past, that's why his current boat has twin eggbeaters. I also turned on the ac in my workshop, and I'm letting it cool down. I'll get it off eventually. I've never run across a bolt or a nut that I didn't get off eventually. If push comes to shove, I'll cut the head of that bolt off, pull all the rest of the bolts, then slide the head off over the rounded bolt. Then I'll get a GOOD pipe wrench on the bolt and turn it out. Hopefully, it won't come to that. The gauntlet has been thrown, now it's on! :eek!:
Joe if you have a good shot at the head before you torque up on it tap the head from side to side with a drift and hammer, that has bailed me out more times then I can count. I learned it from another old fart, it helps to break the head stiction. Just last year I passed it on to Tom at Vintage Marine when an old Hercules was getting the best of him.
Phil
My perfect record still stands. :biggrin.:
For future reference, the 12 mm is larger than the 7/16ths. I couldn't drive that one on, and the only good six point socket I had in 12 mm was a 3/8ths drive deep socket. I drove it right on. I was afraid I might twist off the adapter from 3/8 to 1/2, because it was a cheapo adadpter, but it really wasn't all that tight. Probably all that pounding helped jar it loose. It came out smoothly. I took all the rest of the bolts out of that head, and the threads look really good. I think I'll change them out anyway, because some of those other outside bolts may have a little rust on them too, hell, it's only money. I'll make more next week! :wink:
I had to use a vise and a punch to drive the bolt out of the socket.
I'm waiting until Debbie gets home before I pull the head, incase I have my hands full of head, and I need something moved.
I'll tackle the other head tomorrow.
Sheet we know Deb is the muscles behind that operation:smash:
Sheet we know Deb is the muscles behind that operation:smash:
Yep. She's everything I look for in a woman...............a strong back and a weak mind.:eek!:
Catch, don't you dare show Gina this post!:eek!::wink:
I didn't fare so well on the starboard side. :(
It's a Craftsman. The bad part about it is that it's the smallest six point socket I have in 3/8ths drive. Everything smaller I own is 1/4 drive. I might as well bust a few of them, so I can replace them all at once at Sears. The 12 mm wouldn't hold hit, so I tried a 7/16ths. My bad eyes failed me again. I drove the 7/16ths on the wrong end with a bfh. Then I tried an 11 mm, no good, then the 3/8ths, which you can see the result of, then the 10 mm. I'm doing like last night, cooling off, getting a bite to eat, while the workshop cools down with the ac on. Then I'll don my armor, and go back in to battle. I have a feeling this will be a protracted battle this time.
Mr Bluewrench has arrived, courtesy of my dad.:cool:
Debbie had to go to St Pete today anyway to take Kyle back to the cottage.
Dad says he's getting to old to trust himself with a torch. :(
catch 22
07-30-2007, 05:50 AM
I hope someone has 911 on speed dial.
Joe heating cylinder head bolts is risky due to the expansion rate of cast iron it loves to crack, I tried it back years ago and thought I was being super careful trying to spread the heat. Long and short I ended up buying a new head for a customers boat!! I have had very good luck with lighter cast stuff, I did a ton of Chevy/GMC split manifolds. I would drill the heads off before I would heat the head, you going to buy new bolts so why take the chance!
Phil
Joe heating cylinder head bolts is risky due to the expansion rate of cast iron it loves to crack, I tried it back years ago and thought I was being super careful trying to spread the heat. Long and short I ended up buying a new head for a customers boat!! I have had very good luck with lighter cast stuff, I did a ton of Chevy/GMC split manifolds. I would drill the heads off before I would heat the head, you going to buy new bolts so why take the chance!
Phil
Those hardened bolt don't drill so easily. I doubt the heat from the torch will hurt the cylinder head, they get pretty hot when they are running.
RickSE
07-30-2007, 11:41 AM
Keep the bolts around the one you're trying to get out torqued down; they'll help take some of the tensile load off that bolt.
Keep the bolts around the one you're trying to get out torqued down; they'll help take some of the tensile load off that bolt.
I just read that on another site a minute ago. Good point, and I'm going to do that. Thanks Rick.
mrfixxall
07-30-2007, 02:33 PM
I just read that on another site a minute ago. Good point, and I'm going to do that. Thanks Rick.
Warm up the head a little and put candle wax over the bplt head and it will seep into the threads and lube the threads up so it comes out easier..
Warm up the head a little and put candle wax over the bplt head and it will seep into the threads and lube the threads up so it comes out easier..
It not the threads that are holding it more that it's supposed to be, it's the fact the heads on the bolts had some corrosion and rounded off.
RickSE
07-30-2007, 05:09 PM
You can always weld another bolt to the head of the bolt you're trying to get out then use the socket on the new bolt head to back it out. Just use a bolt of the same size or bigger and get a good weld all around. I had to do this on the motor for the yellow Chevy before I brought out to FL. I thought I was hosed until I tried this idea.
You can always weld another bolt to the head of the bolt you're trying to get out then use the socket on the new bolt head to back it out. Just use a bolt of the same size or bigger and get a good weld all around. I had to do this on the motor for the yellow Chevy before I brought out to FL. I thought I was hosed until I tried this idea.
Been there and done that. The only problem is I don't have my dad here to do the welding. We've welded either nuts or bolts on rounded bolts before. My dad did send his acetalyne rig, I guess I need to figure out how to use it. I read the instructions this morning, it doesn't sound difficult, probably just a matter of practice.
RickSE
07-30-2007, 05:50 PM
I used a baby MIG. Like was mentioned before I'd be a little concerned about the amount of heat the acetalyne rig will put into the head to weld.
BERTRAM BOY
08-09-2007, 10:44 AM
Joe,
The springs that came on the engine, double or single (both with damper)? It's hard to tell from the pics.
mrfixxall
08-09-2007, 11:21 AM
cuda looks like you need to get a set of thease..
RickR
08-09-2007, 02:05 PM
Worst case :( can you grind (die grinder) the head of the bolt off? I've had to do that with exhaust manifold bolts.
gcarter
08-09-2007, 02:25 PM
cuda looks like you need to get a set of thease..
Those suckers work!!!
Cuda, I have some and if you drop by my shop some time, I'll lend them to you.
VetteLT193
08-09-2007, 02:30 PM
Those suckers work!!!
Cuda, I have some and if you drop by my shop some time, I'll lend them to you.
No kidding, I have a craftsman set. I got them on sale and they really came in handy one day working on the wife's car:wink:
Joe,
The springs that came on the engine, double or single (both with damper)? It's hard to tell from the pics.
It has inner, and outer springs.
cuda looks like you need to get a set of thease..
I bought a set. They wouldn't work. The problem is trying to get it to bite at the angle it has to go in. I didn't realize you needed to put a socket on them to turn them. I couldn't see the back side of them when I bought them. I figured they'd have a place to turn them with a half inch ratchet. Once I get a socket on there, there isn't enough room to get the proper angle. :(
Worst case :( can you grind (die grinder) the head of the bolt off? I've had to do that with exhaust manifold bolts.
They are hardened bolts, that won't be as easy to grind off as exhaust bolts, I'd probably damage the head trying to get it off by grinding. That usually is not a concern when you grind off exhaust bolts, because you are generally replacing the exhaust manifolds anyway. Believe me, I thought about it, but the "washer" looking part of the bolt is right against the head, and most of it is still in place. :(
The heat didn't break it loose enough for me to turn it. I can still get a fairly good pull my driving a 3/8th's socket on there. I tried to practice acetalyne welding a nut to a bolt, but it didn't hold worth a damn. I talked to my neighbor the other night who has a mig welder, and asked him if he thought he could weld a nut to what's left of that bolt. He said he'd try, but I've been working late every night since he told me that. I'm off early for me today, but I've got two blueprints I need to do the take-offs on this evening.
BERTRAM BOY
08-09-2007, 04:59 PM
It has inner, and outer springs.
So, 2 or 3 pcs. total?
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