How many "N.A" c.i. to make 600 HP on 87 Octane?

[Jamesbon]

...my gears are turning....
Just thinking out loud here.... Would a 454, 502 or 540 ci, naturally aspirated make 600 HP on 87 octane? Once the GT is done, I plan to make some more power for the 22 to "wake her up." :eek!: A roots blower would be stellar, but I am getting used to the simplicity of a "turn key" package. I don't want to be "wrenching" anymore.... :propeller:

[gcarter]

Oh boy!
I hope you find out, I'd like to know.

[Lenny]

Nate, I never posted it, (as I was "dumbed down" by Europe) but, over there the MINIMUN Octane was 92 and it went UP from there. We used to feel sorry for 502 Magnum and others there in Germany and Sweden, unfortunately, now WE are there. And with ****tier FUEL. Seriously, 98 is at EVERY STATION in Europe. Land based or otherwise....similar price to Canada but their octane WAAAAYYY higher...

Grass is greener theory,... :rolleyes: yep, again

But I can not eat, live or ever sleep there... That is just me (and my gal)

:)

I think I need to go again in 5 years, WITH some folks and not alone (with my gal) and see if it can make any sense.

WIDE OPEN SPACES AND LIVE THAT WAY,... Lenny

[Barry Eller]

I don't think so, to make that kind of horsepower would require HIGH COMPRESSION, thus the need for HIGH OCTANE.

87 octane is for our LOW COMPRESSION engines. My Gen VI 502 has a compression ratio of 8.75 to 1.

I like to run my timing close to 32 degrees advanced, so I use 89 octane to prevent detonation.

[gcarter]

Well, unless you want to go w/EFI, here's an example.....
A 330 HP 454 CI engine has 0.73 HP/CI, therefore using the inverse function, 600 HP would require 822 CI.:wink::eek!:

[BUIZILLA]

get a 572/620, hook up the throttle cable, use pump gas, and be done with it

you can NOT build anything else for that money, thats any more powerful....

:wink:

[VetteLT193]

Why do you consider a blower as being not turn key?

[Barry Eller]

get a 572/620, hook up the throttle cable, use pump gas, and be done with it
you can NOT build anything else for that money, thats any more powerful....
:wink:

Where is my YELLOW paint? Will my Revolution Marine exhaust fit a 620?:wink:

[BUIZILLA]

Why do you consider a blower as being not turn key? his BASIC requirements are NATURALLY ASPIRATED :wink:

[BUIZILLA]

Where is my YELLOW paint? Will my Revolution Marine exhaust fit a 620?:wink: oh hell yeah it'll fit... :cool:

but it's a .400 tall deck block, so your risers will be .400 higher, and farther out than before... :wink:

[VetteLT193]

his BASIC requirements are NATURALLY ASPIRATED :wink:

From the original post...


...roots blower would be stellar, but I am getting used to the simplicity of a "turn key" package....

So, I all I'm asking is why a blower is "stellar" but does not equal "turn key" in his mind, because it's just as turn key as a big inch NA motor in my mind.

[gcarter]

From the original post...
So, I all I'm asking is why a blower is "stellar" but does not equal "turn key" in his mind, because it's just as turn key as a big inch NA motor in my mind.
I'm not sure that even w/good fuel/ignition management that you could run a Roots blower w/87 Octane fuel.

[mrfixxall]

get a 10.200 dart block,4.500 boar witth a 4.500 crank, a set of dart iron eagle open chamber heads with je dish style pistons and a crane roller will make 700 hp with 8.7to 1 compression on 87 pump gas..

[RickSE]

It can be done you just need the c.i.'s. Merc.'s 500 motors make a little over 1HP/ci on 87, so you just need the displacement; a big 500 or 600 ci motor should do it.

OR just drop the weight; use a big cube Merlin-X or 500 ci GM DRCE aluminum BBC block with aluminum heads and loose weight plus big HP.:yes:

[VetteLT193]

I'm not sure that even w/good fuel/ignition management that you could run a Roots blower w/87 Octane fuel.

True, and even though it's probably do-able, it's gotta be just as complicated as getting that kind of power out of a 'small' big block on 87 too. :bonk:

[Barry Eller]

oh hell yeah it'll fit... :cool:
but it's a .400 tall deck block, so your risers will be .400 higher, and farther out than before... :wink:


There goes the engine hatch cover! Or maybe 3 scoops, 1 for the 2x4bb carbs on the tunnel ram intake and 2 for the risers! Naw, headers!:cool:

That is truly not in my plans. I'm taking a break from the rigging of my little 502 this morning, having a glass of "Southern Style" sweet Iced tea!

Nice fantasy though...maybe a lottery win could make it a reality...no, a lottery win would be a 43 ZR...:yes:

[Jamesbon]

I haven't ruled out a blower yet, the fact is, I just don't know much about them, much less, building a blown engine and tuning carbs :bonk: With 2 4 bbl carbs., doesn't the fuel economy go to hell? (not that I care that much, but I'm getting 3 mpg overall now.....)

Buizilla,
Can't a 454 be stroked to 572 using the standard short deck block and stroker crank? Or do you have to go to the tall deck block?

[VetteLT193]

I think the 454 has to be bored .090 over to get to 572 (with a big stroke) or go .100 over with a slightly bigger stroke than stock.

You probably don't want to go over .060 over, which with a big stroke you are sitting around 550 cubes. Still pretty radical IMO, because of the cylinder pressures of a marine application.

I like the smoothness of a blower, but as said before you'll have a tough time running 87 octane. In general, if the basic criteria is 87 octane you'll need some big inches to get to 600 HP.

From a MPG perspective, in theory a supercharged engine should be lighter than a comparable NA big inch motor making the same power... (don't get on my back about block material here)... so, the supercharged engine should be more efficient assuming it has been properly set up.

If you lift the 87 octane requirement, you may consider a procharger on your stock 454. If you stick with 87 octane, you may still consider it with much lower compression.

[gcarter]

oh hell yeah it'll fit... :cool:
but it's a .400 tall deck block, so your risers will be .400 higher, and farther out than before... :wink:
Actually it would only be 0.282 higher since the banks are at 45* from vertical. Heck, that's just over 1/4".

[BUIZILLA]

well, not really, the DECK and INTAKE rails are both .400..... I have a .400 block right here if you want to measure it... :wink:

[BUIZILLA]

I think the 454 has to be bored .090 over to get to 572 (with a big stroke) or go .100 over with a slightly bigger stroke than stock.

You probably don't want to go over .060 over, which with a big stroke you are sitting around 550 cubes. Still pretty radical IMO, because of the cylinder pressures of a marine application.
on a Gen V HD block you can go out to 4.600 bore as long as the wall's stay at .250 minimum thickness.... a +.090 454 is not a 572 :wink: it's a 472... :pimp:

[handfulz28]

Just some random brainfarts on a hot Tuesday afternoon...
Where is a NA motor going to make those numbers? 6000rpm or so? Is that really useable, "daily driver", turn key? What's it going to cruise like, and how will it behave at the dock?
Quick look at Merc's site for reference of "off the shelf" pieces...the 525EFI is a NA 502ci with 8.75cr running on 87 octane. The 600SCi is 502ci with 7.5cr running on 91 octane. Those motors have a recommended RPM range of 4800-5200 and they run iron heads. I've read a few times that swapping to aluminum heads reduces likelihood of detonation, all else being equal.
So how about building a reasonably "common" 502 with low CR, good aluminum heads for a blower motor, a fuel injected blower setup like Whipple. I'm guessing you could get very near to your number, on 87 octane. It'd probably be very similar to the 575SCi that's not made anymore?
Granted, you move away from NA, but I think it could be a lot more user-friendly than most blower stories would have you believe. Would probably be a lot more user friendly, and you might find cruise RPM with low boost (1-3psi) might actually be better MPG than the same CI motor NA making less power.
Just a little Gas-X for the brain...

[VetteLT193]

on a Gen V HD block you can go out to 4.600 bore as long as the wall's stay at .250 minimum thickness.... a +.090 454 is not a 572 :wink: it's a 472... :pimp:

Like I said, with a BIG stroke it can be 572 (well, I don't think 572 exact is possible out of a 454 without custom parts, but near 572)

I actually think stock stroke (4") @ .090 over is 473, but I could be wrong; .060 over you would need a hell of a stroke to get to 572. Probably near 4.9" without doing the math...

I was trying to say what could be done, but also saying that with the marine environment (high cylinder pressures) you probably wouldn't want to go crazy on bore or stroke. I think reliable power can be had with a bump in bore and stroke (.30 over, 4.25" stroke) for a total of roughly 485? CID This could make 500 or so HP... or, just supercharge it. either way, getting to 600 hp isn't that easy without a blower or big inches

[mrfixxall]

Like I said, with a BIG stroke it can be 572 (well, I don't think 572 exact is possible out of a 454 without custom parts, but near 572)
I actually think stock stroke (4") @ .090 over is 473, but I could be wrong; .060 over you would need a hell of a stroke to get to 572. Probably near 4.9" without doing the math...
I was trying to say what could be done, but also saying that with the marine environment (high cylinder pressures) you probably wouldn't want to go crazy on bore or stroke. I think reliable power can be had with a bump in bore and stroke (.30 over, 4.25" stroke) for a total of roughly 485? CID This could make 500 or so HP... or, just supercharge it. either way, getting to 600 hp isn't that easy without a blower or big inches

454 boared .060 over with a 4.380 crank = 511.22 cid

[Forrest]

Innovation Marine in Sarasota built the 8.8L (540 CID) NA 560 prop-shaft hp engine for the fully warranted Volvo-Penta DPX 600 package. I bet they would build one for you as well! From what I recall, it had an 87-octane requirement . . . or was that 89-octane?

http://www.boats.com/published/images//img6424.jpg
Volvo-Penta DPX 600

[BigGrizzly]

Actually Garry Grimes makes a 540CID short deck with 700HP and the same torque that uses 87 octane but needs a good exhaust and not through the prop. I have seen the results myself. As for blowers if anyone has seen my boat it is turn key and it is procharged and is on the quick side for speed.

[The Hedgehog]

Nothing wrong with forced induction! Mine runs clean and smooth with a nice bite. I don't have the time on it that Griz and these guys have on them but have no reason to think that it is coming to a bitter end. If it does though, I needed to refresh anyway and I would have needed to do that to pick up an additional 100hp. Now when I refresh I will be around 750 hp or so!

[Cuda]

I'm pretty sure I've seen threads on Oso about getting 600 hp from an HP 500 rather easily. I believe they changed the bumpstick, and did some porting. I don't remember if they raised the compression or not, but I don't think so, because I remember it being a fairly low budget build on the HP, so I doubt they changed pistons, or anything on the bottom end. I'll see if I can find out.

[Boatless]

Can't you purchase a naturally aspirated crate motor from GM that makes the power you need.

It's like a 572 and 620 hp.

[Jamesbon]

I'll have to check out the specs. on the Volvo 600. I seen those at Innovations shop.

Sure, I can buy a crate 572 or 620, but for $20k'ish...., I think I'll find an alternative :bonk:

The more I read, the more I think a Procharger could quite possibly be the most cost effective, best bang for the buck solution.

I saw one for sale for a 500 EFI, I wonder what would need to be changed to fit a 454 Mag MPI (385HP) ...

[BUIZILLA]

for the kind of boating YOU do Nate.....

get a Whipple :cool:

[VetteLT193]

I'll have to check out the specs. on the Volvo 600. I seen those at Innovations shop.
Sure, I can buy a crate 572 or 620, but for $20k'ish...., I think I'll find an alternative :bonk:
The more I read, the more I think a Procharger could quite possibly be the most cost effective, best bang for the buck solution.
I saw one for sale for a 500 EFI, I wonder what would need to be changed to fit a 454 Mag MPI (385HP) ...

Isn't the intake on the 454 mpi on the side of the front, versus directly in front on the HP 500?

I think the blower is the same, probably an M-1, but the install kit will be really different. If you are really looking for turn key, I'd buy one new, direct from ATI.