Ext. Hyd. Steering

[gcarter]

This is the steering system out of the Testarossa. It's great except it takes two people to steer it!!!
So where do I add a power steering pump in this arrangement???????
TIA!

[Mr X]

You do not use a power steering pump with that set up.....it looks like a "Hynautic" brand.
Just keep about 10-15 pounds of air in the tank and its good to go.

[gcarter]

You do not use a power steering pump with that set up.....it looks like a "Hynautic" brand.
Just keep about 10-15 pounds of air in the tank and its good to go.
Yep, Ted, that's the way it was.....however, it is VERY stiff.....in comparison to the normal power steering setup.
And yes, it is a Hynautic.
But is there any way to add power assist???

[Mr X]

Teleflex has a seastar system that does use a power assist. It is an electric pump that ties into the system.
Contact them and see what is involved.
http://www.teleflexmarine.com/document/productpdf/document1002_5_1067.pdf
Of course you could just upgrade to a nice Latham system and throw all that OLD stuff away :p

[smoothie]

George,Those cylinders look familiar...did this boat come from Ohio???

[gcarter]

George,Those cylinders look familiar...did this boat come from Ohio???
Yep!

[gcarter]

I probably wouldn't be opposed to replacing the helm, but the cylinders are good as is all the ends, mounts, etc.
I'm planning on refinishing everything along w/new SST wire braid hoses and hose ends. I don't think there's any reason to reinvent the wheel here. Just upgrade it.

[smoothie]

I know the guy that owned it...well sort of owned it,its a long story,its orginally from Michigan,heres a pic of it 3 years ago and it was in outside storage at Simmons Marine until this spring then it was gone.

[gcarter]

I think it's a different, but very similar boat.
This one spent most of its life in Pennsylvania until just several years when it went to Colorado and then to Ohio.

[gcarter]

According to the paperwork I have, which seems to be pretty complete, it has never been in Michigan.
However, Metraman has one, that seems to be it's twin, for sale in Michigan.
I bought it from Jerry Eisele who bought it las fall from someone in Ohio.

[smoothie]

You are lucky its not this one...it was in sad shape.

[gcarter]

I guess that makes three amazingly similar 22 Testarossas that have scoops and external steering.
Pretty amazing.

[MOP]

Well I think it can be done by eliminating the res/pressure tank run the line from the apportioning valve to the power steering pump then feed the pressurized oil to the helm. A helm change may or may not be needed, that would depend on its ability to handle the incoming pressure. I stand to be corrected but believe it will work.

Phil

[smoothie]

Yes Phil it could work,but like you said,first you would need to find out what kind of system PSI the cylinders can handle,on a full hydro system its between 1000 and 1300 PSI,then the bore and stroke to match up to the helm unit for how many turns you want lock to lock.also you would have to add a cooler tank and filter.see links:
http://www.imcomarine.com/pages/orderinginfo.html#lock%20to%20lock
http://www.h-ri.com/Product/Steering_systems/Steer_sys_helm_details.html

[gcarter]

Smoothy, you're mostly correct....the system has an operating pressure, but what ever pressure is required is the pressure that will be supplied. For instance, the manual system that exists does the job.....i.e., it supplies the pressure necessary to move the outdrive. The boosted system will exert the very same pressure but it reduces effort at the wheel. I need to determine the stroke and volume of the cylinders just like you mentioned.
I need a helm, steering column, Merc pump, filter, and re-use the reservoir.
I haven't even looked at the existing manual helm for any information. It was pretty fast acting, I didn't measure turns, it seemed it was about three. It was much faster than the system on the Minx that was four turns.

[smoothie]

I agree,I was referring to the psi that you get from the power steering pump,I guess you could put a reducer on it to match the cylinders???


But back to the boat,story has it that a fella in michigan was modifying the motor in these boats and reselling them,the hood scoop was his signature and maybe so was the steering,Ive seen this boat run and it was pretty fast and idling thru the channels it sounded like either turn me off or hit the gas:wink:it is pretty amazing to see 3 boats like this...and may stand to reason.

[BigGrizzly]

Teleflex does have a electric system that should work. I have one on the Corsican and it is one finger steering. it is easier than the Criterion with the char- lyn engine pump. I am looking into getting rid of the engine belt driven pump and going this route on the Criterion Too. Teleflex spent a long time designing this system. They would come down to Honda and test on several of our boats. Teleflex is one of our vendors and are great to work with. The system is easy to install, no belts just battery and ignition switch hook up, bleed the lines and your done.

[gcarter]

Randy, I've looked at the literature and it looks intruigeing, but kind of pricey.....
I need to see which way is easiest on my pocket book. I have a long way to go on this boat.
This was a pretty expensive boat in its day...$45,000.00 or about $80,000 adjusted for inflation. There's a lot of good hardware but it ALL has to be rebuilt/repaired.

[HallJ]

George,

If you want to adapt to a power assist I can walk you through it.
I put it on my Minx when I installed the Arneson.

You will have to find the operating press of your cylinders though.
If it is lower than the PS pump, you can use a press reducing valve.

Jeff

[gcarter]

George,
If you want to adapt to a power assist I can walk you through it.
I put it on my Minx when I installed the Arneson.
You will have to find the operating press of your cylinders though.
If it is lower than the PS pump, you can use a press reducing valve.
Jeff
Or set the relief at a lower pressure. Oh, I forgot...the helm has a relief velve, but I don't know if it's adjustable......
But you're right, a pressure reducing valve could be added after the pump discharge.

[gcarter]

On another note, helms come in open center and closed center styles.
I'm wonderinng what that means.....
I'd imagine "open center" means that there's flow through the valve all the time at essentially no pressure unless the valve (or wheel) is turned and pressure and flow is diveted to which ever line is selected.
Closed center would mean thet flow is restrained against the relief valve at operating pressure and would be diverted at full line pressure when the wheel is turned.
If my assumptions are correct, then I would want an open center.
Of course if I knew, I wouldn't be asking the question.......

[smoothie]

Well George...you answered your own ?,yes you will need an open center helm unit and your steering wheel will never stay centered again.

[gcarter]

Well George...you answered your own ?,yes you will need an open center helm unit and your steering wheel will never stay centered again.
All too true, it won't.

[MOP]

The pressure is only upon actuation by the helm and relieved on the other side of the piston allowed to return to the reservoir, the only time the cylinders would have full pressure on them is at the end of travel if you held the wheel over hard that is where the relief valve comes into play. The system pressure is relatively low, as force is applied to one side it is relieved on the other. It can not be compared to hydraulics that lift or compress as that type has constant pressure, steering is more like fluid motion. By adding power assist all you are doing is reducing the effort by speeding up the flow.

Phil

[gcarter]

The pressure is only upon actuation by the helm and relieved on the other side of the piston allowed to return to the reservoir, the only time the cylinders would have full pressure on them is at the end of travel if you held the wheel over hard that is where the relief valve comes into play. The system pressure is relatively low, as force is applied to one side it is relieved on the other. It can not be compared to hydraulics that lift or compress as that type has constant pressure, steering is more like fluid motion. By adding power assist all you are doing is reducing the effort by speeding up the flow.
Phil
That was my thinking too....no more pressure than there is with the manual system.

[smoothie]

You two are killing me:biggrin.:your thought process is correct with your low pressure system,I guess where we are getting wrapped around the axle is what Im explaining is a full hydraulic system with 1000 to 1300 psi (from the PSP) running thru it,thats why you have to use hi-pressure fittings,hoses and everything else.
Back to Phil's original post,I think he may have come up with the best bang for your buck,instead of buying the electric pump maybe go with the PSP and a reducer to get to the correct PSI for your system.still may need a cooler,filter and tank.BTW a car PSP is the same as a Merc pump.

[gcarter]

We are all correct. If the boat is going straight and there's no side loads, the operating pressure is "0" PSI as no pressure is needed to keep a straight course as the fluid is incompressible. Any additional forces on the drive will be counteracted by an opposing force of hydraulic fluid at any pressure necessary up to its maximum operating pressure, or the relief valve's set point. Since my system has been operating for a lot of years very well, I imagine. All I have to duplicate is the required operating pressure.
Another thing to consider is, in my case, the helm is a pump, just like a bottle jack is used to jack up a house using a handle operating a small hydraulic pump much smaller than the bottle jack's lifting cylinder. In my case the mechanical advantage is the radius of the steering wheel. I suppose if I were to set up a fixture so that the maximum pressure of the manual helm pump could be determined (or the set point for the two relief valves) you would find little difference to the pressure of a boosted system.

[smoothie]

I didnt look at the electic pump assist option do you have to change the helm?

[gcarter]

I didnt look at the electic pump assist option do you have to change the helm?
Apparently not. And it looks like a really good solution. I've read in Griz's posts about what it cost.
What I need to do is look at the relative costs of the electric booster vs. the cost of a helm, steering column (adapter), filter, PS pump, cooler, etc.
If they're about equal $$'s, then the electric system would be better as you can eliminate a belt and I wouldn't need to change anything on my system except I need new hoses and fittings either way. Those old black hoses are UGLY!!!!!

[roadtrip se]

Okay George, I have been to enough rallies over the past seven years to see the results of several beautiful restoration efforts, including your Minx a couple of years ago at AOTH.

Wonderful top off restorations with new gas tanks, stringers, shiny gel coat, beautiful interiors, and sweet custom dash panels with the look and feel of the originals.

But why in the world would you mess around with a tired, old, outdated steering system that has the potential to possibly put you in the drink? Especially when there are modern alternatives that are so much better from a technology perspective and will not change the acceptable look of your Classic boat and most likely enhance its value to boot?

If you spend all of this time and energy to save a couple of bucks piecing together and improving an OLD system, you still have an OLD system that may or may not do the job. To save a couple of bucks?

I still remember the conversation I had with you on the Grider Hill docks at Cumberland about a mysterious lean that occurred with your Minx and got the attention of everybody in the boat darn right quickly. I witnessed it on the water. That lean will be nothing, if your new OLD steering decides to let loose at a rally.

Just do it right. There are several guys here that have pieced together a modern system on a budget. I am sure they can help keep you in a reasonable cash range and you should end up with something that will actually enhance the safety of your performance boat.

Good luck!

[gcarter]

Todd, I'm surprised at you!!!:wink::wink:
I'm talking about two cylinders. Cylinders are cylinders. These are beautifully made. They are SST and bronze. In fact, they are very similar to Catch's cylinders. They can be completely refinished and re-sealed to be like new. The only thing I'm not crazy zbout is the length...but I can always get the local hydraulic shop shorten them after I figure out a better geometry.
I'm not locked into anything, infact I'm just now getting to really look at the boat for the first time. It has some great looking Hynautic planes with the dash mounted indicator and switches all in the same assembly. Classic stuff. Why would I replace stuff like this. It's beautiful! Needs to be refinished, but it's beautiful and it all works.
Don't worry, I'll do what's right.

[MOP]

Hydraulic cylinders are good until the bore get scored, they last a very long time Georges boat though an 88 has extremely low hours. Almost all marine cylinders are made to protect them selves and the system from over pressure. The pistons have 4 to 6 spring loaded ball checks built in, half the set relieve pressure in one direction and the other half relieve it in the other direction. No matter what direction the piston is traveling if it encounters over pressure it is automatically relieved. Now considering the age of Georges rams I would install new pistons on the rams, if a ram relief spring breaks the system becomes sluggish, will not hold corse and there is a chance of scoring a bore from bits and pieces. I worked on this marine crap for many years very little wool can be pulled over my eyes! To much conjecture and not enough fact!

Phil

[VetteLT193]

I've been looking at adding hydraulic steering to my Minx... Up until a few days ago I knew approximately zero about the inner workings of hydraulic steering. GCarter PM'ed this thread so I learn some more so I'm dragging it back from the dead...

I've done a bunch of research and I think I know less than when I started.

I am mainly interested in a manual steering setup. I know the steering effort is more, but it should be less complex sans power steering pump. Plus I'll save a few (thousand) bucks on the system. So far, here are a couple general questions...

On any of these hydraulic systems there is a reservoir. How does this interact with the rest of the system?

I have a feeling that the helm always sucks fluid from the reservoir and pumps that fluid into the rams. Then return fluid from the rams gets dumped into the reservoir.

Does that make sense?

[BUIZILLA]

Uflex

[VetteLT193]

Uflex

can you elaborate :confused: