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View Full Version : How Much Speed Will This Get Me......?



Carl C
06-09-2007, 06:49 AM
This summer will be my third season with my new boat and I'm kicking around some ideas to get my speed up a little. It would be a project for this winter and the funds are there if I decide to go ahead. First the basics: I've got a 2005 22C w/496 HO, 25p Mirage plus, 100% stock. It runs 73. 75 on a good day. (gps) I'm leaning toward CMI Sport Tube headers, Imco shorty and a labbed prop of a make and pitch yet to be determined. What would you guys estimate my speed increase to be? I'd like to hit 80 consistently. Low 80s on a good day. Will this get me there? I'd like to stay naturally aspirated. BTW, I know about the external hydraulic steering recommendation for these speeds and will look at that too. TIA.:boat::lightning

MOP
06-09-2007, 08:13 AM
Carl, Todd will be one of your best sources of info he has the shorty down pat.

Phil

gcarter
06-09-2007, 09:27 AM
Carl, Catch went through this piece by piece, but no real repeatable gains were attained until gobs of HP were added.
IMHO, these little bits and pieces are all nice, but don't work well together by themselves, but are a catalist to an HP500, supercharger, or some large HP booster. Let's say a shorty and headers are $7K, or a Procharger is $7K, you'll see more gain w/the Procharger.
Probably the biggest bang per buck is a labbed prop.

Dr. Dan
06-09-2007, 10:05 AM
:wink: Carl...whatever you do ... I always suggest that you do "ONE" improvement at a time to establish a "Baseline"....otherwise it is difficult at best to determine what really gave you the improvement...

I am still on my one improvement... eventually I will go to my 2nd phase...then 3rd ...then I should qualify for my Pilots License... on the thing..

If you are eventually... going for Speed, include 2 items for sure in your "Improvement Skunk Works Budget"

1.) Life Line Vest
2.) Full Hydraulic Steering

Until I get the above two items... mine will be staying where its at...

I will have the Vest in few months.. and the Steering is this Falls Project.

so far...for the one improvement...I gained over 20 mph from my anemic 454...and George is right... I did have to get a few new Props... still dialing them in...but the King Cobra likes the TXP's, 4900 rpm's is an even 80 mph with Liz and I and a full tank...with the 26 pitch. If I lift the Drive and Tabs completely...its gonna move a few more digits North of 80 ... I am thinking it'll do 82 to 84 in its current configuration.

Too fast without the Steering... so I don't visit there ... often. Thinking of getting Goggles also... it's ridiculous...

Catch must need a Face Mask at 92 mph? :spongebob:

... Just my $.02

Good Luck...

Doc of the Blue Venom Project :wavey:

Cuda
06-09-2007, 10:05 AM
I'd do the hydraulic steering before anything else.

Carl C
06-09-2007, 05:42 PM
The tech letter attached here is from the July Powerboat mag. It is answered by Bob Teague and he says that the CMIs are good for 4-5 miles per hour on the 25' Shockwave in question. I figured 4 mph for the headers, 2 for the shorty and 1 for the labbed prop. 7 mph would get me where I want to be. Is this not going to happen? If not, I will find a better way to spend $10,000+.:confused:

gcarter
06-09-2007, 06:55 PM
I believe a lot of people feel a labbed prop is good for 3-4 MPH and cost a few hundred $'s.
Hence my statement about "bang for buck".

There's huge differences in boats and perhaps certain combinations of hulls and components make a larger difference, but the shorty (by itself) on Catch's 22 made no (repeatable) difference at all.

yeller
06-09-2007, 07:00 PM
If you're willing to spend $10k, S/C it. :yes:

Carl C
06-09-2007, 07:19 PM
Thinking of getting Goggles also... it's ridiculous...
Catch must need a Face Mask at 92 mph? I strap on my big sunglasses and wear a tennis headband over my ears sometimes. I thought you had a shorty?

If you're willing to spend $10k, S/C it. :yes:I'd be worried about the pistons. I like to run fast. I'm more looking for n/a bolt-ons to get another 7 mph. I'm dreaming, huh?

Cuda
06-09-2007, 07:36 PM
The tech letter attached here is from the July Powerboat mag. It is answered by Bob Teague and he says that the CMIs are good for 4-5 miles per hour on the 25' Shockwave in question.:
I don't think there's any way bolting on CMI's will get 4 or 5 mph. Doesn't Teague sell CMI's? Coincidence?:confused:

Carl C
06-09-2007, 08:24 PM
I don't think there's any way bolting on CMI's will get 4 or 5 mph. Doesn't Teague sell CMI's? Coincedence?:confused:Yup, this is from the Teague ad in the same issue. Almost 60 hp???:eek!:

gcarter
06-09-2007, 08:38 PM
Carl, why don't you start w/a prop?????
It's the least $$$'s and should be immediately verifiable.
Might not even cost anything but some postage to find out.

Dr. Dan
06-09-2007, 09:02 PM
:bonk:Carl...I am the one with the King Cobra... 14 year old Boat... that continues to "Piss Off Todd" and his $20,000 Shorty, Steering and whatever else is propelling that Red Rooster!

I agree with George... start with props... easy to borrow... and cheap in comparison to other things mentioned. No way you are gonna gain 10 mph with your above recipe! If all went well...you might see between 4 to 6 mph ... maybe.

Speed above 70 takes alot to get to 75, 75 to 80 takes more than twice what the last 5 mph cost you... ask me how I know this?

Doc :wink:

Carl C
06-09-2007, 09:26 PM
Carl, why don't you start w/a prop?????
It's the least $$$'s and should be immediately verifiable.
Might not even cost anything but some postage to find out.Because I want to go 80 and the right prop now will not be the right prop for long

:bonk:Carl...I am the one with the King Cobra... 14 year old Boat... that continues to "Piss Off Todd" and his $20,000 Shorty, Steering and whatever else is propelling that Red Rooster!
I agree with George... start with props... easy to borrow... and cheap in comparison to other things mentioned. No way you are gonna gain 10 mph with your above recipe! If all went well...you might see between 4 to 6 mph ... maybe.
Speed above 70 takes alot to get to 75, 75 to 80 takes more than twice what the last 5 mph cost you... ask me how I know this?
Doc :wink:I remember your boat from White Lake but never got a good look at the drive. What you say is really what I needed to know so I'll rethink this. Oh yeah, and it's bull**** that Teague would fake that letter to sell CMIs.

tiger lily
06-09-2007, 09:33 PM
what about something like pulling out that 496 and dropping in a hp500, then selling the 496?

Cuda
06-10-2007, 03:06 AM
Like I said, you should do the steering first. If you're already hitting 75, you're right at the limit of what would be considered safe with stock steering. Catch said when he first got his boat running at high speeds, he had to constantly be sawing on the steering, and the hydraulic steering cured all that. He says it runs straight as an arrow now.

Carl C
06-10-2007, 06:40 AM
what about something like pulling out that 496 and dropping in a hp500, then selling the 496? I've got some thinking and figuring to do and lots of time to do it. If the motor comes out, there are kits that would give me the n/a power I need, and since the hp500 is still a BBC based motor I'd have to figure which way would be more cost effective. A SC'd 496 done right would be sweet too.

Like I said, you should do the steering first. Good advice, it's just so darn easy to blow off the expensive safety stuff. I appreciate all of the input and would have been very disappointed to do the mentioned mods and only get 4-5 mph.

Pismo
06-10-2007, 07:25 AM
My labbed prop on my 22 got me from 74.3 to 75.5mph so 1.2mph. I may have seen a full 2mph if I had my revs a little higher. As for the 496 headers, everyone is installing them and starting threads on the idea and install but to date I have not seen one specific speed improvement result posted. If they worked great, people would be posting results all the time and since nobody posts results from the install I would guess they dont do much, esp for the big $. Maybe a Raylar kit. That would get you to 500+ prop hp. Lots of threads on OSO about them. Set aside $3-4k for steering too.

zimm17
06-10-2007, 07:48 AM
Steering first. It's the best mod I've done so far. I can take my hands off the wheel and it won't move at all. The steering just holds the drive and it tracks great.

MOP
06-10-2007, 08:17 AM
I wonder who makes the factory exhaust on the 396, it looks real close to several that are considered headers. Found this spec sheet while trying to find out more dope on the 396. Check the other post on 496 MUST READ!
http://www.bullockmarine.com/mercury/2005_sterndrive_hp_496_mag_375_hp.html

undertaker
06-10-2007, 08:57 AM
IMO I would do one mod at a time, I installed Dana's exhaust although I had a few gremlins the upgrade should yield 2-3 GPS mph along with a prop change (still testing props). I am not sold on the shorty drive, talked to Doc about it and we have our opinions..again IMO there is no subsitute for HP Todd, Doc's & Catch 22's boats are good examples. If you do not feel comfortable with SC, than there are other options (Raylar, sell black motor buy blue motor, etc.).

CMI'S are great exhaust and have the name in the industry, I went with the Dana's because they have the bling look and seem to have similiar performance gains but less cash, I struggled with CMI pricing you are looking at 6000 6500 installed for CMI, and I felt at the time I could do a Raylar or SC for close to the same money and yield more gains than the CMI'S so in my pea sized brain I decided against them...good luck in your decision take your time do some research....:)

My next mod will be Hydraulic Steering and I will NOT go the cheap route on this it WILL be Latham Steering.....:yes::yes:


Undertaker - cheap exhaust expensive trailer:):):):)

Dr. Dan
06-10-2007, 09:10 AM
:smash: "Undertaker - cheap exhaust expensive trailer" - Now that is the smartest thing I have heard from you in awhile! That right thar, is some Funny Stuff.

Doc -

undertaker
06-10-2007, 09:11 AM
:):):):):):)


Undertaker:bonk::bonk::pimp::pimp:

BigGrizzly
06-10-2007, 09:48 AM
As most of you Know I have done it all. The Shorty should be the last thing in line. I did not do the shorty because I don't want to change the Criterion and it is the last thing on my list and may never get there because of a need. My order of needs are exhaust, steering, engine (SC optional). Only do one at a time!

Cuda
06-10-2007, 10:19 AM
My next mod will be Hydraulic Steering and I will NOT go the cheap route
I don't think there is such a thing. :(

blueliner
06-10-2007, 10:58 AM
i got 3 miles an hour with a labbed 27 prop. best bang for the buck for sure!!!

LKSD
06-10-2007, 12:44 PM
Carl, the right prop is quite important.. The Exhaust real world usually @ best nets a 2-4 mph increase.. A shorty done the right way (example going to the shelby x dimension or close to it) should net you annother 2-4 mph.. I too agree with doing things 1 step or stage at a time.. Good luck on your plans & we are here if you need our services.. :) Jamie / Lakeside


.

roadtrip se
06-10-2007, 05:12 PM
Real world? Nothing subs for HP combined with safety items already mentioned here.

Doc has a 500EFI that has been re-built, but it doesn't even idle at the same rate as mine does, and in my opinion has about 40-50hp than my stock setup. So comparing his results combined with the Cobra drive to mine with a stock 500EFI and shortie is apples and oranges. End result is two boats that run pretty strong, but getting there differently.

I did all of my mods at once. I went from 68-72 with a 502mag to 79-81 with the combo of more power, shortie, bigger props, and steering. The torque and resulting acceleration is amazing and airing her out is something that is an absolute blast. I attribute the 55hp for 5-7 of the gain and the drive/props for the rest.

By the way, the shortie takes a extreme amount of trim to really get the boat up and out of the water on the high end. Anybody that runs with me at a rally knows when I am getting ready to move out, due to the water trail. The shortie has an absolute impact on how the boat behaves and my experience of five years says that it DOES have an impact on the top end. BUT, you have to have the power to get the boat out of the water to really take advantage of the specialized drive.

I would look in the engine bay first. The 500/525 makes this boat a completely different animal. Not sure what you would really get out of the other upgrades in return for the aggravation you will go through to get everything else dialed in.

Carl C
06-10-2007, 05:40 PM
I appreciate all of the great replies. Horsepower and hydraulic steering is it I guess. A labbed prop will be needed too. Gotta look at pricing, a drop in bluey would be nice. Will one fit on Santa's sled? Todd, thanks and if I go the Blue route I will be in touch, you live right down the road! edit 6/11: I just e-mailed a letter to Powerboat mag to complain about the conflict of interest in allowing Bob Teague to promote his products in his "Teague on Tech" column. I bet they don't print it! 60 hp and 5 mph from headers alone? pul-leeeze! That's almost as bad as the bottom speed wax but this came from a credible source!

yeller
06-13-2007, 12:08 AM
Here's an option for you Carl.
http://www.nwoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2063
Not sure if his asking price includes the trade or not.
You may want the shorty though.

glashole
06-13-2007, 07:41 AM
no replacement for displacement :)

Cuda
06-13-2007, 08:37 AM
If you can hit 75 with the 496, I'd leave it alone and call it good. There is much to be said for an engine that will run everytime you take it out. Maybe a labbed prop.

Why do you think the guy is looking to trade for a 496 in that other post?

Pismo
06-14-2007, 09:03 AM
If you can hit 75 with the 496, I'd leave it alone and call it good. There is much to be said for an engine that will run everytime you take it out. Maybe a labbed prop.
Why do you think the guy is looking to trade for a 496 in that other post?

I tend to agree, with my labbed prop I get 75.5mph out of a totally stock boat that should run for decades. Hard to mess with that. Good enough for me. Maybe hydraulic steering and keep trying props.

Carl C
06-14-2007, 09:32 AM
I couldn't get Yeller's link to come up but I'm not about to pull my motor now that we're in the middle of our short boating season. Remember, what's fast enough for one person may not be for another. Many folks are good with 45 mph. My last boat ran 85 and I'd like to see 80-83 now. And that is slow compared to the many folks who are now running over 100. I really don't know what I'm going to do. I thought maybe I could reach my goal with bolt-ons but that's not going to happen. Doesn't the Shelby run about 3 mph faster due to the raised x-dimension? Why wouldn't a shorty have the same affect? How can Bob Teague claim "almost 60 hp" just from bolting on headers? About the only thing everyone agrees on is the labbed prop and that may be what I have to settle for. According to my tach I'm only hitting 4,800 rpm, sometimes a bit more. If I go labbed I'm thinking of staying with a 25p Mirage plus, factory labbed by Mercury. This should get my rpms up a bit and add a couple mph. Does that make sense? I like the Mirage +. Is there another type prop that would be better for top end? There is a teal 22C on my lake that runs 80+ with a 4 blade cleaver but he is making lots of n/a power. He did tell me that he sometimes wishes he'd left things alone for reliability.:confused:

undertaker
06-14-2007, 10:16 AM
Carl, if you want to run 80-83 MPH consistently NOT once in awhile with light load in fuel, tailwind and a out going tide:):) than you need more horsepower....exhaust, labbed props, shorty only will get ya 2 - 4mph consistently on a good day..my exhaust mod got me 2 - 3 mph that is in ideal conditions..Dr. Dan can still smoke me even with my new exhaust why because he has HP, same goes with Todd and even ITILLFLI his boat flys to.....

I am in the same thinking mode upgrade the black motor or sell black motor and put in blue motor.....Raylars kit has had some good feedback and will get you to 525 HP so maybe that might be the route for me or maybe I will wait a few years when I got some more cash and just drop in a Merc 525 blue motor and have a turn key high HP motor....things to think about over the next year or so...


Undertaker:pimp:

Cuda
06-14-2007, 01:17 PM
I don't believe anyone thinks 85 is "slow" with a 22 foot single engine I/O boat. What was your previous boat?

As for the prop, you should call Throttle Up for their opinion. Real good people there, that I've met in person, and anyone who has used them have nothing but good things to say about them.

Carl C
06-14-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't believe anyone thinks 85 is "slow" with a 22 foot single engine I/O boat. What was your previous boat?
As for the prop, you should call Throttle Up for their opinion. Real good people there, that I've met in person, and anyone who has used them have nothing but good things to say about them. An outboard of course! Hydrostrem Vegas XT Mod VP w/modified 200 Merc. (and nitrous oxide just in case, but the 85 was on the motor) Little pickleforks are running well over 100. I know I'm opening up a whole new can of worms with the prop talk. I'll keep Throttle Up in mind. MadPoodle, if you read this what would be your choice of a top end and high speed cruising prop? I do not have any bad handling issues now with the Mirage+.

undertaker
06-14-2007, 02:05 PM
IMO the Mirage+ will be your fastest prop, but in my case I did not like the handling of the Mirage+ on my boat so I went with the Turbo 26P TXP (per Poodle)...Every 22 classic is different so testing props is what you will have to do....:):) Good luck...


Undertaker:cool:

gcarter
06-14-2007, 06:13 PM
IMO the Mirage+ will be your fastest prop, but in my case I did not like the handling of the Mirage+ on my boat so I went with the Turbo 26P TXP (per Poodle)...Every 22 classic is different so testing props is what you will have to do....:):) Good luck...
Undertaker:cool:
I didn't care for a Mirage+ AT ALL!!!!! Boating's supposed to be fun and running a + on the Minx was anything but fun. :eek!::eek!:

gcarter
06-14-2007, 06:21 PM
OK Carl, here's the answer to your Quest!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bravo-1-Mercruiser-Outdrive-Gaffrig-Livorsi-Offshore_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50442QQihZ006Q QitemZ160126732191QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

The seller says it's good for 15 MPH:wink::wink:
It might go for less than $1,500.00.
I don't of anyone who has experience w/one of these on a 22 and 496 (maybe Ted) but it would b e fun to find out and it would be relatively inexpensive. :)

Carl C
06-14-2007, 07:18 PM
OK Carl, here's the answer to your Quest!!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bravo-1-Mercruiser-Outdrive-Gaffrig-Livorsi-Offshore_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50442QQihZ006Q QitemZ160126732191QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
The seller says it's good for 15 MPH:wink::wink:
It might go for less than $1,500.00.
I don't of anyone who has experience w/one of these on a 22 and 496 (maybe Ted) but it would b e fun to find out and it would be relatively inexpensive. :)Do they still make those? I haven't seen them or the variable pitch props advertised for a while. I read that the speed increase came from the raised drive heighth when trimmed up rather than the offset. I don't think I'll be the guinea pig for this. And 15 mph???:propeller:

tiger lily
06-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Do they still make those? I haven't seen them or the variable pitch props advertised for a while. I read that the speed increase came from the raised drive heighth when trimmed up rather than the offset. I don't think I'll be the guinea pig for this. And 15 mph???:propeller:

i know some people that ran extension boxes on bravos, but they were larger, 30+ offshore with twins, picked up a couple mph, but lost alot of out of the whole speed, give and take with those.

yeller
06-14-2007, 11:40 PM
Carl, you'll find it at www.nwoffshore.com.
I was pretty sure you were wouldn't be interested in the motor, but thought you might want the shorty. He has a brand new IMCO 2"shorty w/xr gears for 2800obo.

yeller
06-14-2007, 11:43 PM
OK Carl, here's the answer to your Quest!!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bravo-1-Mercruiser-Outdrive-Gaffrig-Livorsi-Offshore_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50442QQihZ006Q QitemZ160126732191QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
The seller says it's good for 15 MPH:wink::wink:
It might go for less than $1,500.00.
I don't of anyone who has experience w/one of these on a 22 and 496 (maybe Ted) but it would b e fun to find out and it would be relatively inexpensive. :)15mph for less than $2k!! SOLD!!! This is going to be great...I should hit triple digits! :):)

Carl C
06-15-2007, 08:08 AM
Yeller, I got the link. No shorty for me right now since the jury is still out on those. I've got to rethink everything now and there is no hurry. My trip to Lake Huron this week did make me want to be able to keep my Q&Q exhaust. I like to put on the wind-aways and quiet the exhaust for the long shoreline cruises. The Raylar 600 would be nice but I'm not ready to swap out my motor yet. BTW, it looks like we missed your birthday, hope it was a good one.:)

Cuda
06-15-2007, 10:44 AM
The Raylar 600 would be nice but I'm not ready to swap out my motor yet. .:)
Did good sense get the best of you after all? :)

Carl C
06-16-2007, 07:11 PM
Did good sense get the best of you after all? :)Maybe, but cruising speed to me now is 65-70. I need reliability first and can't afford a new blue motor now. Thanks for all of the input and I will probably go for minimal mods next year.:)