Alpha hinge pin removal???

[penbroke]

So I'm trying to take the gimbal apart on the SeaRay to change the upper pivot seal... (Alpha 1 gen 1) The previous owner and his previous owner were both patrons of one of the less reputable repair shops in the area... Anyways, the insides of the horizontal hinge pins are all stripped out. I have taken a few of these apart with a 1/2" allen wrench with no problems in the past but this time it was not to be. I borrowed the correct tool from a local shop and drove it in with a hammer, heated the bell housing to soften the locktite and used a impact driver with an 8 lb hammer all to no avail. The tool just spins in the hole at this point. I tried driving a big allen wrench in it and have been spraying it with Blaster PB off and on for about 3 weeks now. (I knew this wasn't going to ba any fun.) Before I start drilling, does anybody have a trade secret or any words of wisdom?


Thanks as always,
Frank:boggled:

[MOP]

Frank the only way to beat that bear! Pilot drill them, then use the proper bit for the size thread for the pin, the drill the head off without damaging the aluminum. Then pick out the end of the old thread until you can grab it, 90% of the time it will peel out like a Heli Coil. Most everything else I have seen tried just turned out plain bad! When they get that old they get just plain MEAN!

Phil

[Newby]

Frank

I have the same problem on a Bravo II. Keep us posted regarding how you resolve yours. I am about to try the heat and impact driver. If that fails, I plan to cut the gimbal since I am changing it anyway. However, I may try drilling it out. I need to re-use the bell housing so I cannot afford to mess it up. I will let you know if I get any bright ideas. I am also changing the upper seal and the swivel shaft. Mine was leaking seawater into the bilge. I have concern for whether the gimbal housing will hold a seal when I get to it. If the housing won't hold a seal, does anyone have an idea other than to replace the gimbal housing?

[gcarter]

The leaking water (whether it's a seal, stud, or what ever) is a troublesome issue because you cant get to it from the inside and clean up the mess. Then you get corrosion that will eat all the way through the housing. One that I had I had to discard. I purchased another on eBay that looked good in the pics, but the seller had simply painted over the corrosion:mad: :( I was able to clean that one and get it welded. It just depends on where the leak and corrosion are.

[Donzigo]

Interesting comments George. I was just thinking this morning that it's about time to remove both engines from "Big-D" (Z-33). It's been about three years and I need to replace gimbal bearings and freshen up of other things. I was waiting until something required taking an engine out; but, it seems that these bad boys are going to last forever. I know I've got exhaust manifolds coming up soon, so maybe I'll wait until summer is over.

I had that same leak you are talking about and I simply scaped out the corners around the housing of the Bravo on the outside and sealed the outside with 5200. It's amazing how it has stayed firm and sealed the leak. My freind & mechanic of 35 years told me the trick. He said he had sealed many like that. I'll bet MOP and Mr. Fix-It have done the same, since they are two of our most experienced people on the board.

[penbroke]

OK... So... Back to the hinge pin problem... I ended up drilling out the pin on one side. I pulled the pin out of the other side and did some measuring. I wanted to stay inside the steel with my drilling and not venture into the aluminum. I figured if I drilled it close enough to the shoulder I could just twist it off to get the bell housing out and finish removing the threaded portion of the pin later.

I put the pin I took out back in to keep things allinged and started with a 1/4" drill and drilled almost all the way through to the bellows. There is a nice depression in the center of the pin for location. The pin is case hardened so it is tough going in the beginning. Lots of oil and lots of pressure. Once through the hard skin (or case) it drills easy. I then stepped up to 1/2" and drilled just past the the shoulder of the pin. Stepped up to 9/16" and carefully drilled to where the shoulder should be. You can feel the hard skin of the back side of the shoulder as your are drilling. I then took it apart as if the pin had been removed.

I still have the threaded portion of the pin in the bell housing to remove and the head is firmly stuck in the gimbal ring. Both should be pretty easy to deal with on another day with a drill press and an arbor press.

Newby, drill it out and save the ring. It wasn't that bad. If ya want any more detail let me know...

Thanks again Phil. Your experience and wisdom with this stuff cannot be measured.

Frank :wrench:

[MOP]

Thanks Frank! Old ideas for old stuff! Damn sounds like I am talking about ME!

[Newby]

Frank:

Glad to hear you got it apart. Thanks for the detail on the drilling. I have seen references to special drill bits (Titanium I think) for the job. Did you use any special bits. I am replacing the gimbal ring because of slop between the ring and the swivel shaft. I am replacing with an aftermarket stainless steel gimbal ring. However, I do need to use the original bell housing and your advice will help. Thanks again. I will ask more questions if I run into any difficulty.

[MOP]

Buy a can of cutting oil! Regular oils slow the process down and shorten bit life drastically, I use a small pump oil can that I have tapped the nozzle sort of flat so it sprays rather then shoots. My tilt on drill bits! Ask a local machinist what is the best set you can buy they may very well last your life time. I am still using a 30+ year old set of "Chromate" drills, not sure if they are still around but they are/were the best of the best. In all those years 10 of which I was still on the wrenches none broke and none burned up, they were very expensive but have paid for them selves many times over.

Phil

[BigGrizzly]

Mean Old Phil, Its the oil and the hand of the user that makes your drills last so long. Remember a dull drill makes a bigger hole and takes longer. I invested in a Drill Doctor and threw out the old drill sharpening jig that took 30 minutes to set up. I took that 40 year old bottle of drills I just couldn't throw out and fixed all of them, even the 135' split points. Great investment. I even took a broken 3/8 and 1/4 and made a shorty, not great but ok.

[MOP]

Damn Randy do we throw anything away?? I still have some bits my Grand dad gave me, some day one of my kids will get 50lbs of bits some probably museum pieces:shocking:

[penbroke]

Any good quality High Speed Steel (HSS) bits should do the job just fine. Most of the bits I have were my fathers and he got most of them as throw aways from a machine shop. It is just as important to have a good feel and good control over the drill motor.

I spent almost 3 hours today turning that stupid nut on the upper pivot pin with a pin punch. I can't believe that thay couldn't come up with a better design than that. :mad: :boggled: I'm just glad I didn't have to cut the holes...

Anyways,,, How is the seal around the pivot pin supposed to work? All I have is a rusty shaft that slips through a metal sleeve that has two groves in it. I see no atempt to seal anything. There's no rubber, no grease, nothing...:boggled: What am I missing?? Is there a better way??


Frank

[gcarter]

You need a manual w/ a cross section. It sounds like you need a new pin in addition to the new seal.

[Newby]

I had to cut the holes in the gimbal housing to get to the swivel shaft nut. Since I had trouble with the hinge pin, I did not try to remove the nut. I didn't know the nut was going to be so hard to remove. Did you have any trouble pulling the swivel shaft? Did you use any special puller? Thanks for your help.

[penbroke]

Manuals I got... Anybody have a pin they don't need? I don't see any evidence of any sealing material in that area at all. Is there supposed to be a typical pressed in oil seal there? Or something else...

It wasn't that the nut was hard to remove. It was just tedious. Tad the nut a few degrees, rotate the gimbal ring a bit and tap the nut a few more degrees. For each side on the nut I had to rotate the gimbal ring 3 times. Start with the steering all the way right. Tap the nut. Steering to center. Tap the nut. Steering all the way left. Tap the nut. Steering back to the right and repeat... Boat has power steering so it is a bear to move the ring by hand.

I was able to remove the shaft by loosening the clamp bolts and tapping up on the gimbal ring after the hut was part way off. As the nut goes up it will hit the top of the inside of the housing and push the shaft and gimbal ring down. Once I moved it a little I was able to get a small pry bar under the head of it and work it down and out. I expected the hole in the bottom of the shaft to be threaded but is wasn't. I was going to make a simple puller for it.


Frank
I'm really liking the simplicity of the old Volvos...

[MOP]

Frank look this over the link below you can see the bearing and seal.

http://216.37.204.206/Shorts/mercruiser_oem/Mercruiser.asp?Type=13&SubType=113&A=39&B=12

[penbroke]

Sadly, that's not what mine looks like. I have the square/square shaft. The bottom of the upper housing has only a bushing with two grooves in it. It is NOT a needle bearing race. There is NO typical pressed in oil seal like I expected to find nor is there space for one...


Frank:boggled:

[MOP]

Well did you find the microfiche for the one you are working on? It should be there go by the year.

Phil

[penbroke]

Yup. It's the number 2 type with the bushings, not bearings.

I don't see where it uses 2 of the oil seals (#4 on the parts diagram) as the parts list says though. Unless there is supposed to be one above the bushing as well as below...

Frank

[gcarter]

Yup. It's the number 2 type with the bushings, not bearings.
I don't see where it uses 2 of the oil seals (#4 on the parts diagram) as the parts list says though. Unless there is supposed to be one above the bushing as well as below...
Frank
I remember this....it's one above the other. There's another place in the outdrive....the shift rod gets two seals one above the ather.

[MOP]

Frank many times the seals have been jacked out by pumping grease in to quickly, both lips face outward so they both will let the greas pass except for the over greaser! You sould have found some of the remnants!

[penbroke]

I haven't got the new parts yet but looking at the old swivel pin/shaft... there is no way for grease to get to the lower bushing/seal area. There is a grease fitting at the top of the housing and a hole in the top end of the shaft but the hole doesn't go far enough down the shaft and it is not cross drilled. Maybe the new one will be?? Anybody ever drilled one out like this to provide lubrication? There's really no hope of putting a non-stainless shaft with one end in water through a non-lubricated rubber seal and expecting it to last any meaningfull length of time. I can't imagine these last more than a couple of months in salt water....


Frank :confused:

[gcarter]

I haven't got the new parts yet but looking at the old swivel pin/shaft... there is no way for grease to get to the lower bushing/seal area. There is a grease fitting at the top of the housing and a hole in the top end of the shaft but the hole doesn't go far enough down the shaft and it is not cross drilled. Maybe the new one will be?? Anybody ever drilled one out like this to provide lubrication? There's really no hope of putting a non-stainless shaft with one end in water through a non-lubricated rubber seal and expecting it to last any meaningfull length of time. I can't imagine these last more than a couple of months in salt water....
Frank :confused:
Frank, all you do is pack it with as much as you can. Remember, the shaft only moves a few degrees and very slowly. It's not like it's spinning. It will last for years. Are you planning to keep the boat for a long time? If so, I'd remove the whole assembly and repair and refinish completely. I have a used extra that seems to be in good condition, I think it might be a better starting point than what you have.

[penbroke]

Well alrighty then... I was able to press the head of the pin out of the gimbal ring. It had been streched by spinning the tool inside it and the press had to work to push it through. I also drilled the threaded portion of the pin out of the bell housing. I used the studs that the drive bolts up to to mount it to an angle plate on the table of the Bridgeport. The hole that I had drilled by hand was centered on the outside but was off a bit on the inside. I drilled it a size larger than the existing hole and observed where the bit came out the bottom. Moved the table a bit, went to the next size bit and did the same. After a couple tries I was pretty well lined up with the original hole. The threads are 5/8-18 which calls for a 37/64" (0.5781") tap drill. I worked up to one size smaller (9/16", 0.5625). At that point I was able to start picking the threads out of the hole enough to start a tap. (like MOP said above) I turned the tap 'till I felt it pick up the steel thread and backed it out. Picked the piece out and repeated. Towards the end the tap just pushed the piece out the back side. Looks like it should be just fine.

Thanks George, I think I'm OK at this poinnt but will keep it in mind...


Frank