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Carl C
04-17-2007, 08:38 AM
I just got my boat back from the shop after 8 months. This morning I was getting it ready to take out and before putting on the prop I checked the runout on the prop shaft to make sure it was now OK. My dial indicator readings indicate that it is bent and are so close to my original readings that it appears to be the same shaft even though the invoice shows a new shaft. Here is a link to my original measurements: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showpost.php?p=390017&postcount=14
Today's readings: .029 at the tip riding the threads, .022 riding the boss at the base of the threads(same location as in pic), .008 directly behind the spline(same location as in pic).
Should I even water test the boat like this. What should I do? I'm starting to think that it's time to bring an attorney into this. If the boat has to go back to the shop then it is really going to cut into my already short boating season. In this case I think I'm due compensation for loss of use. If I water test the boat like this today will I risk doing further damage to the druve? Could I go for a quick fix by putting a sleeve over the end and whacking it with a BFH untill it is straight? Mop, HM, 'Poodle, anyone! Phone-248-330-0048Help!!!

Rootsy
04-17-2007, 08:51 AM
there is no straightening it without a machine shop at your disposal and someone that knows what they are doing... secondly, attempting to measure runout of a threaded portion of a shaft is darn near worthless for a couple of reasons... all that said.. .020 is a BIG number...

How are you mounting your indicator stand to your sterndrive? any movement there is magnified at the tip.

fire it up on the hose without a prop on it.. put it in gear at idle.. if it is truly bent that much you WILL see it as you sight down the propshaft and watch it spin... it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Carl C
04-17-2007, 09:15 AM
there is no straightening it without a machine shop at your disposal and someone that knows what they are doing... secondly, attempting to measure runout of a threaded portion of a shaft is darn near worthless for a couple of reasons... all that said.. .020 is a BIG number...
How are you mounting your indicator stand to your sterndrive? any movement there is magnified at the tip.
fire it up on the hose without a prop on it.. put it in gear at idle.. if it is truly bent that much you WILL see it as you sight down the propshaft and watch it spin... it'll stick out like a sore thumb. I reconnected the dial ind and rechecked it. This time I got .024, the same as my pre-service reading. I'm tightening all clamps with pliers so the set-up is solid but it is hard to ride the small boss without a slight angle. I will run the boat as you suggested shortly. So whacking the shaft with a Big F***ing Hammer is totally out of the question?

BUIZILLA
04-17-2007, 09:17 AM
tow it back to that shop with the setup your showing us and get back to us with their answer... :confused: :eek!:

BigGrizzly
04-17-2007, 09:22 AM
There are several things I need to say. Please do not take this personally, most people make the same mistake. First you are using the wrong type of indicator and/or tip. Al so, the spot you measured has machining marks which confuse the measurements. There is a center hole at the end of the threads that should come into play. Now is there any play at shaft and bearing that needs to be dealt with. Also does the shop have the old parts? There are a hole lot of things to do before the lawyers get involved. Like what are Mercs specs on run out? If they are 0.030", you lose! I wish I could explain it better, maybe Rootsy can. The other thing is that props in rubber hub and solid hons have more run out than that. The blade pitch varies more than that also. So in my opinion I would test ride it if possible first and see if there is a real problem. Take someone along with you who doesn't know the problem. The reason I am saying this is because you will subconsciously home an a perceived problem, even if it isn't there. To be very honest with you, I doubt that you could feel the 0.024" shaft variation on a 14 1/2X25 prop in running on the water. The prop centers on the taper at the base of the shaft not at the end of the splines. If you would like to talk to me about it, I may be able to explain it better on the phone. You are welcome to call 706-216-8194. I shoul be home most of the day and after 6:00pm to 10:00 pm EST, then mu cell is 770-318-1136. Believe me I do understand your concern on the Donzi. I hit the panic button when I see a mist from my exhaust I go and smell it and do all the anal stuff, last I did a leak down test after a rain storm because of the water vapor.

penbroke
04-17-2007, 09:27 AM
You'll forfeit any claim you have against anybody with the first wack...


Frank

BigGrizzly
04-17-2007, 09:28 AM
Take the bronz prop washer off and measure there too. than the center hole. It wouldn't hurt to measure a new boat in a show room on any Merc out drive to compare.

DonziJon
04-17-2007, 09:44 AM
Carl: I'm looking at my Clymers Mercruiser Manual for prop shaft "runout" for a Bravo 3 drive. Two prop shafts, one inside the other, ie Duo Prop. I know you don't have a Bravo 3 but the point is this: There is a specific place to put the probe of the dial indicator to check for runout. There is also a specific runout that is permissable. The Bravo 3 "permissable" runout for the inside shaft is .010 at a specific location. The runout for the outside prop shaft is .005, but is measured at a different point further Back (toward the case) on the shaft foreward of the spline.

The point I am trying to make here is...you have to know WHERE to measure, and WHAT the permissable runout IS for YOUR Drive. Go to a sterndrive "mechanic", other than the one who "fixed" it and find out WHERE to measure runout and HOW much runout is permissable. I wouldn't be ready to write off the shaft just yet.

By the way, the manual says IF the runout is "out of spec", straitening the shaft IS NOT an option. The shaft should be replaced.

We need a certified sterndrive mechanic to chime in here. John

Carl C
04-17-2007, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the input Randy and everyone. I ran the boat as Jamie suggested and there is a very noticable wobble. No free play when trying to wobble the shaft by hand. On careful inspection I've verified that they replaced the lower gear case but it looks like they reused my old shaft. I'd like to verify that this much run-out is not normal before I take the boat back. Maybe I should still water test it for additional problems first? :( :mad:

BigGrizzly
04-17-2007, 09:52 AM
Carl, sounds like you have a handle on it good luck. hope weather gets warm and you are on the water soon!

Rootsy
04-17-2007, 09:53 AM
first of all.. your photos are TOO small for me to see enough forensic detail to decipher anything...

secondly, merc manual will have allowable runout specs for the propshaft in black and white...

Carl C
04-17-2007, 10:20 AM
BigGrizzly, you are wrong. I do not have a handle on this. I called Gary at K&M and he told me to measure it just as shown in this pic. I very carefully rechecked it here and again get .008. Gary told me the spec is .006 max. My concern is that the aft end of the spline is bent considerably worse. Gary assured me that the shaft is new but that does not make sense. He can be stubborn and will most likely say that it is good enough. It shouldn't wobble noticably should it. You guys don't know what I'm dealing with here. Gary is convinced that my boat was damaged and repainted at the dealer because no boat builder would paint a boat after assembling it. We know better here. He just won't listen.

Rootsy
04-17-2007, 10:24 AM
i take it you've put the prop on once or twice? Greased the spline?

Carl C
04-17-2007, 10:35 AM
i take it you've put the prop on once or twice? Greased the spline? No I have not done anything to the shaft. Here is one more pic after I cleaned the splines that appear to show wear from the prop. You'll need to blow up the pic. Am I correct on this? I need to be well prepared before I take the boat back or I'll just get the runaround. I appreciate the help Jamie.

DonziJon
04-17-2007, 10:52 AM
CARL: I think you are getting very close to NOT having a problem. Take your measurement again with a "Different" dial indicator. Even if the second dial indicator measures the same, you are still only talking about .002 out of spec. The factory specs for Any Machine always have a generous built in allowance when calling for such tolerances. Tolerances are not absolute. John

BigGrizzly
04-17-2007, 11:04 AM
Just so you know For measuring that you should have different gauge I can't remember what it is called, but the arm moves left and right not up and down. with the dial guag the arm must be dead center and straight to the center axis or the measurement will be off.

yeller
04-17-2007, 11:07 AM
Carl, take it to a shop close by and get them to measure and document it for you. It'll cost you 1/2~1hr of their time, but it will be well worth it. I wouldn't take it back without having someone else confirm your problem.

BTW: If there is a problem, call your shop 1st and ask what they will do about it and let them know you are going to notify the insurance company. They won't have been paid yet, so they'll want the problem resolved as well.

Carl C
04-17-2007, 11:16 AM
More pics of shaft. These are high res and show the wear pattern on one side of the spline but very little on the other. DonziJon my shaft is bent as in my drawings (exagerated) so I will show little runout where measured. Again, the shaft wobbles visibly when spinning. Do you guys concur that this is likely my old propshaft?

MOP
04-17-2007, 01:13 PM
Carl my first call would be to your insurance company, that shaft is not new it has had a prop on it no way can they say it is new. The reason for calling the insurance company is they paid the bill and it will not cost you a dime for them to pursue fraud against the shop that did the work. Keep your hands in your pockets let them spend the bucks!

Phil

Carl C
04-17-2007, 01:19 PM
Thanks, Phil. I may have missed your phone call while I was talking to BigGrizzly who also verified that the propshaft is used. I have already informed my insurance agent and he will call K&M. Either the mechanic accidently reinstalled my old shaft or this was a deliberate attempt to make an extra $558. The boat is going back to the shop.

MOP
04-17-2007, 02:26 PM
Either way it will cost them for one or the other an honest mistake or !!!!!!! They will be more careful one way or the other!

Phil

Carl C
04-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Gary, K&M's service manager, told my insurance agent that they have had past issues with parts shipped from Mercury. I assured him that this part was not shipped from Mercury like this and that you can see the wear pattern from the prop and that the runout specs were near identical to what I got before delivering the boat for service. He, my ins agent, will come to my home tomorrow to inspect the boat. Can you say busted ?

BUIZILLA
04-17-2007, 03:20 PM
that 22304 etching on the propshaft.....

is that a date code?? as in Feb 23 2004??

what year is your boat again?

Carl C
04-17-2007, 03:29 PM
that 22304 etching on the prop.....
is that a date code?? as in Feb 23 2004??
what year is your boat again? 2005. Thanks, that number may turn out to be the "smoking gun".

MOP
04-17-2007, 03:33 PM
Exactly! BUSTED!

gold-n-rod
04-17-2007, 03:53 PM
Couldn't K&M claim that they put a test prop on the boat and ran it in a tank to be sure all was OK before delivery? That would explain the marks. And also claim the "new" shaft is within spec (as mentioned earlier)?

It wouldn't surprise me.....

BigGrizzly
04-17-2007, 04:06 PM
Well that could be Rod but then Charles Manson could say he is innocent too. The shafy has too many marks and gaules on it plus they would have to have a big tank, and I know thee don't. Now Let the insurance guy just use you for back up. My suggestion is wright all the numbers and marks on the shaft including the rust stains and metal transfer ewe talked about . give a copy to the ins guy and buy some popcorn. Sorry for the trouble but at least I got to say hi and talk to you. I can tell you we are all behind you.

rustnrot
04-17-2007, 05:05 PM
Wow, good luck Carl. Like they say, B.O.A.T = Bring On Another Thousandth!

Pismo
04-17-2007, 06:50 PM
Get an IMCO shorty, 2". Then send the old one back to the shop, no down time. Sell the merc one once fixed.

Carl C
04-17-2007, 07:42 PM
Double billing is wrong on many levels.. Donzi AND your ins Co should be made aware of the facts... I deleted that post, MadPoodle. My emotions were getting ahead of me but yes, they billed Progressive $450 to R&R the motor and they also billed Donzi $450 to R&R the motor even though it was only done once. I don't think the shorty is an option though I wish it was.

yeller
04-17-2007, 07:42 PM
Good thing you checked Carl.
I'd consider asking the ins. guy if you can have the work done at a different shop (one closer to home). That way you can have everything checked out by another source, plus you can stop in daily to check the work.
If it has to go back to K&M, see if the ins company can make them pay you for time and fuel.

LKSD
04-18-2007, 07:24 AM
I am just trying to be objective here.

The date I believe is when the shaft would have been mfg.. It could have just been sitting on a shelf.. Sometimes we get parts from merc & the date on the box is fresh as of a few weeks & sometimes it is a year or so old..

The age doesnt really matter.. What does matter is if they charged you for a new shaft & reinstalled the old damaged one.. If they did & it looks like it is a possibility then I am with you & I would too be extremely pizzed...

Jamie / Lakeside

.

Carl C
04-18-2007, 11:57 AM
OK guys, I have positive proof that they reinstalled my old propshaft. The link in the first post of this thread contains 2 pics, unfortunately the second one which would show the numbers is out of focus but the first one is high res. Today I carefully found the same propshaft position looking at the small chips and galls and took another high res pic. The pics match and the first was posted here on 10-2-06, proving that it was taken before the boat went to K&M. This is a high res pic and will take time to enlarge. If anyone doubts me, print this pic and the one in the link in post 1 and carefully compare them. That's what I did. I have two very detailed 8x11 prints that match. Now we must determine what other parts were not replaced. I have pics of the small damage to the bell housing so can identify that also. Now I am waiting for a call from my insurance agent. Who does K&M think their messing with?

LKSD
04-18-2007, 12:08 PM
I was not doubting you. I just wanted to help you make sure if you were being jerked around you could prove it.. :)
And it looks like unfortunatley you may be..

On the humorous side it looks looking like they did give you the "shaft" just not how you wanted it.. lol.. :D Jamie

Carl C
04-18-2007, 12:16 PM
I know you didn't doubt me, Jamie. I'm just glad I was able to come up with positive proof. Is there anyway to enhance the pic that would show the numbers. I know law enforcement has ways to do that. Who's your daddy??

LKSD
04-18-2007, 01:10 PM
No problem.. To bad you are in that part of the country, if you were here I would have leaned on your insurance co to the best of our ablity to just get you a new lower or at least a factory reman, or at least give you the option with thier betterment charge.. ;) Its a damn shame especially with the boat being that new & all..

I know photoshop can to a certain degree. You can resize the image, just keep the image resolution high (try to keep it higher than 72dpi).. :) Jamie / lakeside

.

Carl C
04-18-2007, 02:56 PM
My insurance adjuster just left. He knew at a glance that the shaft was not new. The boat will be going to a different shop for teardown and see what else they did not do and K&M will be hearing from Progressive's legal department and the State of Michigan. We already see other items that do not look like they were replaced. Also when I took the boat to K&M they specifically told me that they were open year round. Then they shrinkwrapped my boat and put it outside and closed for the winter without contacting me. I would have came and got the boat. Then they charged me for the shrinkwrap. Now I have abrasions around my boat apparently from the shrink wrap. They lied to me repeatedly. I was not going to bring this up here but now I think I need to tell the truth. Ranman, if you are following this thread I hope this doesn't cause trouble between us. This is not either of our's fault.

realbold
04-18-2007, 03:26 PM
Expose them for what they're worth Carl:yes:
I hope they get what's coming to em and you get it fixed right.

BigGrizzly
04-18-2007, 05:54 PM
Carl, I am proud for you taking the route you did. Other routes don't usually work out as expediently as this way will. After working for a large manufacture I have learned the fast and safe way of doing things. This way your insurence company does the work you pay the premiums for, not just the coverage.

yeller
04-18-2007, 07:12 PM
Carl, I'd call Donzi and let them know what's happening in case you have problems with the glass work down the road.

Ranman
04-18-2007, 08:39 PM
Ranman, if you are following this thread I hope this doesn't cause trouble between us. This is not either of our's fault.

Well, I typed a nice response earlier, but something happened to the board and my reply was never posted so I'll try a short version.

No trouble between us.

I do feel bad though for recommending them in the first place. What you are saying is unreal. I have no ties to K&M, just my friends and I have had very good, positive experiences with K&M so I thought I was helping you when you were being yanked around by Orion Marine. Hopefully the 3rd shop will get it right.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

~R

Carl C
04-18-2007, 08:53 PM
Well, I typed a nice response earlier, but something happened to the board and my reply was never posted so I'll try a short version.
No trouble between us.
I do feel bad though for recommending them in the first place. What you are saying is unreal. I have no ties to K&M, just my friends and I have had very good, positive experiences with K&M so I thought I was helping you when you were being yanked around by Orion Marine. Hopefully the 3rd shop will get it right.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
~R Thank you, that means a lot.