In this thread, you will post about alternative fuels

[gold-n-rod]

Apologies to peregrine for all of the hijackings that took place in his "flexfuel" thread.

Let's dedicate a thread that will continue the conversation about alternative fuels and the future of pleasure boating.

Post on!

[gold-n-rod]

David Cole has written about the automotive industry for many years. Here's a great column from Cole that was published in Business Week on May 22, 2006.

HOWEVER, today, Cole wrote that we might expect $1.50/gal. gas during the summer of '07 as the oil companies attempt to stifle competition by eliminating the financial incentive to alternatives. Interesting.........



ENVIRONMENT

Fill 'Er Up -- But With What?
An alternative to gasoline is inevitable, but it won't come anytime soon. Here's why

Pricey gas has set off a stampede to find the cure for America's energy woes. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) says that "hybrid cars can provide an innovative solution to help reduce our thirst for gasoline." President George W. Bush believes that "the more ethanol we use, the less crude oil we consume." And Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) has hailed so-called plug-in hybrids as "a silver bullet for our nation's transportation needs."

As the pols crank up their rhetoric ahead of the fall elections, auto makers have hitched themselves to various technology solutions. But let's be clear. None of the green, fuel-sipping car technologies that Detroit marketers, Tokyo engineers, or Washington wags are pushing will quickly lower drivers' costs if you factor in the up-front premium on the advanced technologies. Nor will they make a real dent in the nation's oil imports in the next year or two -- let alone by November.

Starting with China's unquenchable thirst, the demand for oil around the world is so strong that it will swamp any amount of petrol Americans may virtuously conserve. What's more, since the U.S. fleet of over 230 million vehicles turns over only about every 15 years, even major new technologies take a while to make a difference. Given how few compromises Americans are willing to make, "there is no silver bullet," says David E. Cole, director of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich. "The gasoline engine will be around for a long time."

Without doubt, developing alternatives is a vital goal for America. Car companies need to push research and development, and government must get serious about creating incentives for new technology. Alternative fuel approaches will require an immense amount of work to deliver on their promise of easing dependence on foreign oil. But it also pays to remember that these approaches will face a crucial test: The new vehicles must save drivers money at the pump, satisfy their driving preferences, and still let car companies turn a profit.

So what does the future hold? If gasoline prices continue to rise, America's highways will gradually morph to look like Europe's roads. SUVs will still be around, but more vehicles will be smaller and more efficient, and only the wealthy and those hauling big families will end up driving large vehicles. Already, sales of the biggest vehicles are slowing, while demand for more efficient four-cylinder models is surging. Over time, more diesels, hybrids, and other alternative fuel vehicles will join the flow. Here's what they can and cannot deliver.

HYBRID HYPE?
Sure, hybrids cars save fuel. But for now their high up-front costs eat up any savings in fuel, and then some. That will probably be the case for another five years, until the hybrid premium falls. The reason: The onboard computers, electric components, and nickel metal hydride batteries just cost too much. Lindsay Brooke, senior editor for the Society of Automotive Engineers, says batteries alone account for about 60% of the roughly $3,000 in added costs for a hybrid.

Toyota Motor Corp.'s (TM ) new hybrid Camry, which hit the market in April, is a good case study. The $26,500, 39 mpg sedan costs about $5,000 more than a nonhybrid 4-cylinder Camry. And it saves about $500 annually in fuel, assuming the driver goes 15,000 miles a year with $3 gasoline. That means buyers need around 10 years to get their money back, assuming no other costly failures. For the math to work, gas prices need to head toward $5 a gallon, or, says Brooke, the hybrid premium must fall to $1,500 or less.

Granted many shoppers pick a hybrid for emotional reasons: They want to drive a green vehicle. But SUV drivers far outnumber them and have their own emotional needs. So while hybrids will gain popularity, they won't take over the roads. J.D. Power & Associates Inc. (MHP ) (owned, like BusinessWeek, by The McGraw-Hill Companies (MHP )) predicts that hybrids will grow from 1.2% of vehicle sales today to 4.75% by 2013.

Next-generation hybrids offer much more dramatic efficiency gains but at even higher prices. Plug-in hybrids, for example, rely on more potent battery packs that can be charged at night from an outlet, and thus can travel farther on electric power. This can effectively boost mileage to 100 mpg. But even if more efficient lithium-ion batteries take over, as is expected, beefier batteries will add cost and possibly more weight, points out Dave Hermance, Toyota's chief engineer for environmental issues.

CORN GUZZLERS
Growing crop-based fuel makes sense on paper. General Motors Corp. (GM ) Chairman and CEO G. Richard Wagoner Jr. promotes ethanol as one of the best ways to cut oil imports and clean up emissions. "There is nothing that can be done over the next five years to address [energy] issues that's better than ethanol," he says.

But while ethanol brings a near-term payoff, Wagoner admits that "it's not free." To GM, the cost to make the engine ethanol-friendly is just a couple hundred dollars per vehicle. For consumers, however, the economics don't yet add up. Fuel made from 85% ethanol and 15% gas, or E85, now costs more than gasoline in many markets. Throw in the fact that it is 25% less efficient than gasoline, and the consumer's bill at the pump is much more. A Chevrolet Tahoe SUV running on E85 costs about $3,500 a year to fuel at $3 a gallon, an $800 premium over the cost to run an all-gas model.

Wagoner's solution could help America wean itself from foreign oil. But not the way ethanol producers are making the stuff today. From the diesel tractors tilling the fields and harvesting corn to the trucks shipping kernels to the boilers in the processing plants, making ethanol requires 1 energy unit of fossil fuel for every 1.3 energy units of ethanol produced.

CELLULOSIC GAINS
Far more promising is an energy crop that's still a decade away or more. Cellulosic ethanol refers to alcohol that's cooked up from the whole corn plant -- the stalk, leaves, cob and all -- rather than just the kernels. It offers a massive boost in ethanol's potential. By tapping other crops and forest waste, along with corn, the Energy Dept. estimates that the U.S. could produce 1.3 billion tons of biomass per year, which could yield enough ethanol to replace around one-third of America's liquid fuel needs by 2030, up from barely 2% today.

But before the cellulosic industry starts crowing about reducing oil imports, there's a decade or so of R&D to be done. The challenges, explains Greg Stephanopolous, a professor of chemical engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, lie in finding better ways to break down the cellulose into sugars, then breeding new microorganisms that can thrive on the unusual mix of sugars and complex chemicals in woody plant matter and spit out useful ethanol at the end.

Over the past decade both Archer Daniels Midland Co. (ADM ) and DuPont (DD ) have engineered ways to make new kinds of biodegradable polymers. Given that precedent, Stephanopolous estimates it will take 10 years and $500 million to come up with industrial processes to make cellulosic ethanol. "That's the downside," he says. "The upside is the potential to replace tens of billions of dollars in oil imports. It's a no-brainer."

THE DIESEL FACTOR
Across the atlantic, German engineers say diesel is the way to go. While it is still no cure-all for drivers here, the fuel gives the best bang for the buck when it comes to fuel savings. Diesel engines sold in Europe by BMW, DaimlerChrysler (DCX ), and Volkswagen can boost fuel economy by up to 50%. Hook an air-blowing turbocharger to such an engine, and you can hike up fuel economy and provide the kind of tire-squealing torque that Americans crave. BMW is now mulling a diesel version of its popular 330 sedan for the U.S. market. The car gets 34 mpg with 231 horsepower and enough torque to make it an out-and-out hot rod off the line.

The catch is, the emissions are dirty, and filtering them to tolerable levels costs money. Diesel cars emit carcinogenic soot and a lot of nitrogen oxides, or NOx, a component of smog. The exhaust is cleaner than what emanated from the coughing, sputtering diesels of the '80s. But it's still too dirty to meet clean air rules in California, New York, and New England. That means almost one-third of Americans can't buy such a car.

There are new technologies that can remedy diesel pollution and meet clean air regulations in all 50 states, including the tougher emissions rules that go into effect next year. And according to Mercedes, they won't cost that much. Bernie Glaser, a general manager at Mercedes-Benz U.S.A. (DCX ), says the company's new BlueTec diesel technology should meet the regulations and could be on the market within two years. Today, Mercedes' E320 diesel is $1,000 more than a comparable gas-powered E350 sedan but with a 20% mileage boost. Glaser says the new clean diesels won't have much more of a premium, but the company is waiting for approval of its exhaust-cleaning technology.

The bottom line: If gasoline were to soar to more than $4 a gallon, carmakers could really push R&D to deliver better fuel economy. But not many people expect such high prices. GM analysts say near-term gasoline prices have peaked. And every time the cacophony of talk about alternative energy hits a crescendo, oil producers boost output and gas prices drop again, David Cole points out. While high energy taxes in other countries have kept the focus there on conservation, ebbing gas prices have disrupted U.S. efforts to conserve in the past. "We saw this after the gas price spike in the early '80s," Cole notes. And if prices slip back to $2 or less, "everyone will stop worrying about saving fuel."

Even if there is no relief at the pump this summer, there should be some solace in the fact that high gas prices will keep the world's top energy technologists thinking about alternatives. John B. Heywood, director of the Sloan Automotive Laboratory at MIT, says the best path is to push ahead with a variety of technologies, maintaining an honest sense of what is possible, and when. "It's not about being pessimistic," he says. "You can't speed up this change a hell of a lot."

[peregrine]

GM has about 800,000 flex fuel vehicles on the road now. Canada has the cellulosic or whatever already implemented in their country on a wide scale. Doesn't seem like that much of a leap to do this and take our dependancy on foreign oil and WARS off the table.

Feel free to blast away at those comments. I can handle it

[Carl C]

Nuclear powered ships.:yes:

[gero1]

how was the ride down?

[roadtrip se]

Randy said and I quote....

"My motivation isn't about fuel economy either. It's about the future of our hobby (sickness). As a country, we seem to be headed down a bio-fuel path to reduce our dependancy upon foreign, fossil fuels. If (or maybe when) our affordable fuel choices become E85 and biodiesel, do we really want to pay $500 for a tank of old-fashioned gasoline for a couple hours of Donzi-style boating?

If the answer is "not really," then what does that do to the value of our Donzis? If only 100 guys in the world will pony up that $500 for a tank of fuel, the law of supply and demand goes to work on our boats..... in a very negative way.

So, I see the discussion about alternative fuels to be critical to our (and future generation's) enjoyment of these boats."


Of course, I started my noise on the other thread as an exercise in absurdity. Bragging about the fuel economy of a performance boat is absolutely nuts. It's kind of like me bragging about the mileage my diesel Excursion gets versus a V10 Ex, it still sucks!

Now, on the topic of $500 per tank Saturdays. The way I see it, alternative fuels should have the effect of giving automobile drivers choices, IF any of them ever become viable. And that is a huge IF, instead of the government boondoggle they all are today! Oil prices are being driven by a lot of factors other than the big mean, conspiracy driven oil companies. China, India, and our friendly kidnappers in Iran have had a little to do with prices lately.

Give us choices in alt fuels that actually are viable alternative to petroleum products and I would think the effect of falling demand for petro-based fuels
would stabilize or drive down gas prices. Simple supply and demand.

The other effect of rising oil prices is that untapped reserves become more viable for exploration and harvesting, but of course only if it isn't in my back yard or ocean.

I sincerely doubt we will be looking at $500 fill-ups in our life time. I'm not putting pure grain ethanol in the Donzi, 87 or 89 octane is just fine and hold the corn squeezins.

[gold-n-rod]

I sincerely doubt we will be looking at $500 fill-ups in our life time.

Ahh, RTSE, I wondered when you'd take the bait....... :wink:

I too, hope I don't live long enough to see $500 fill-ups. That said, I have a starry-eyed 17 year old who hopes to own my Donzi when I croak (if not sooner). That'll be an issue for him, I'm sure.

Thanks for coming over to this thread.

[roadtrip se]

For the day that the dino pools actually do dry up and to give the whiners and economy braggarts something to chew on ad infiniteum...

We pretty much wore out diesel on the other thread. I still like the idea of
exhaust that smells like McDonalds/Burger King/Wendys...

I'll put alcohol in my glass, but not my boat, EVER!

Hybrids. What a crock.

Cylinder deactivation. Probably not a great idea, due to the loads we run under in the marine environment.

Hydrogen. Heck, we are on the water, so the easy part is done.

Methanol. They burn it all day long at garbage dumps. Could become quite the cottage industry in Texas around the feed lots. Think of the impact on global warming.

Moonshine. Not just your grand daddy's elixer any more!

Solar. Um not.

Nuclear. If a man can visit the moon, lose a cell phone in his ear, and be trusted to use a microwave, why not nuclear powered Donzis?

Fluxcapicitator. Go back to visit Don Aronow and Jim Wynne at the New York Boat Show where it all began.

Got any more we can kick around?

[gold-n-rod]

I am deliberately posting my responses to this thread during the day with the beer and the booze safely locked upstairs and out of touch. I am very afraid of what might come out here, if I actually had some cocktails powering the keyboard.

Hmmm...... :wink:

[handfulz28]

I too, hope I don't live long enough to see $500 fill-ups. That said, I have a starry-eyed 17 year old who hopes to own my Donzi when I croak (if not sooner). That'll be an issue for him, I'm sure.

Don't worry, when it's his turn he can drop in one of Peregrine's supercharged corn burners :D Or maybe replace the gas tank with 100lbs of unobtanium batteries and swap the motor for a GE/Mercruiser electro-go-moto (should I trademark that?).

There's no question that we're just starting up a steep learning curve with "alternative fuels". As much as some peope don't want to admit it, there is a finite point at which oil will cease to become a viable source of energy. Just look at history: how many modes of transportation utilize steam these days? Not including the use of steam to generate electricity of course...

Now something that I'm not up to speed on, is the difference between E85 and say the ethanol that the IRL series is using, and how we get 105 octane ethanol.

[gero1]

well what about bakeing soda and water? it worked well in the rocket i had when i was 8-9 yrs old

[handfulz28]

For the day that the dino pools actually do dry up and to give the whiners and economy braggarts something to chew on ad infiniteum...

RTSE...why are you so afraid of power coming from something other than gasoline? I mean, at 33hrs per year I understand you don't burn much. But I gather from what you're saying is that Donzi (and all other "performance" boat manufacturers) should just expect to go out of business at some point?

[roadtrip se]

RTSE...why are you so afraid of power coming from something other than gasoline? I mean, at 33hrs per year I understand you don't burn much. But I gather from what you're saying is that Donzi (and all other "performance" boat manufacturers) should just expect to go out of business at some point?

That does it, I'm calling Josh Stickles tomorrow and telling him I want him to build out my new Classic with a Fluxcapacitor and skip the Ilmor V10.

Handful, I have been on this board since about September of 2000. It started as an enthusuisast site and most of the time, it still is.
Springtime fever hits every year here. I think maybe I am suffering from a pretty severe case myself. AOTH can not come soon enough.

I come here to relax and enjoy my hobby with friends. To afford these things, most of us have day time jobs that can leave a mark. I work hard and play hard.

One of the things that comes up here every spring is concern about gas prices and fuel efficiency. I think it is an absolute kill-joy on a boating performance site. Kind of like living with your mother-in-law, which I don't, total kill joy.

I am not against alternative fuels in donzis. I happen to make a living working with car manufacturers who are grappling with this issue every day
as they try to sell cars now and in the future to those of us who want the latest thing with no guilt.

The reality is, Donzis will eat gas, lots of it, and for a long time to come.
I'm okay with that, but to whine about it is absurd, and kills some of the buzz of this site. We are lucky and fortunate to have these toys. To whine about filling them up or comparing economy ratings smacks of being cheap and negative, so the absurdity from me continues as long as I have the energy.

Off pulpit again, at least for the next ten minutes...

[handfulz28]

That does it, I'm calling Josh Stickles tomorrow and telling him I want him to build out my new Classic with a Fluxcapacitor and skip the Ilmor V10.

I don't recommend the Fluxcapacitor; I've heard it doesn't have great throttle response.
Alright so you're old hat and I'm the new guy...and I don't even own a Donzi. Doesn't make me any less of an enthusiast. And I promise I'm not looking to replace your mother-in-law. It just bums me out when someone comes across as so darn stiff and set in their ways, especially considering their line of work and what insight into the future of this hobby it could provide.
Spring is in the air and you're on the verge of another boating season up there. Next winter when you need a fix, come on down to Florida; I should have another 150hrs or so on the meter by then :yes:

[Carl C]

Hmmm...... :wink: Way to snag a quote, Randy. The original seems to be gone. BTW, fluxcapacitors are not viable because they require 50 giga-watts of electricity (like a lightning bolt) to activate them. When the gas is gone we'll just have to junk our motors and mount a mast. Everyone will have a nice big storage bin then. Seriously, there is presently no viable alternative. I'll not trade my Mustangs for a Prious or my powerboat for a blowboat. I WAS serious about my nuclear comment. I think we need to lose our fear of nuclear energy. It is free and it is green. It could power ships that use huge quantities of diesel now. Small, crash proof reactors may someday power large buses and trucks and trains too. One more thought; if we were able to break down water into burnable hydrogen and oxygen would we not be using up a more precious non-renewable resource? There is a finite ammount of water on this planet. Meanwhile I'm gonna burn all the gas I can this summer. Peace. OK, this thread made me go back and read the other thread which I had not read because I don't care about alternate fuels. That is where the quote came from.

[gero1]

did someone say something about a buzz???? whats the 10-20 on the party?:boat

[Barry Eller]

This is interesting...


http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

[Carl C]

This is interesting...
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188 Yeah but at least they get that warm fuzzy feeling all over that they are saving the Earth. And don't forget that the power that is used to charge 100% electric cars comes mainly from coal fueled power plants. I guess if you can't see the emissions, they don't exist.:confused:

[Carl C]

Here's one way to move a boat: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=71e_1175963898

[roadtrip se]

It just bums me out when someone comes across as so darn stiff and set in their ways, especially considering their line of work and what insight into the future of this hobby it could provide.
:yes:

Not me at all. Sarcastic, direct, and pointed in my comments, yes!
But hopefully with a little of humor mixed in to make a point.

There are a few topics that will bring the best out in me that are boating related. People that claim that there boats GPS at 155 mph with a stock 496HO, drinking a case of beer and then wondering if they might get arrested if they go run their Donzi, and cheap SOBs that buy a Donzi Classic for a lot more than they could buy any other comparable boat on the water and then complain about how expensive they are to run or cobble them together with shoe string. These are a few of my favorites, but we are all entitiled to an opinion right?

I assume you are in the market for a Donzi? Happy to chat. Drop me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call. I see you have a Formula. I had several big offshores, before buying the Classic. Best boating decision I ever made was going to the Classic....

[gcarter]

FWIW, this thread is really interesting and helpful, besides a little fun.
It would be useful if we post a link to a news artical, also copy the body of the article onto the page.
In a few days that link will no longer work and the invaluable info will be lost to the readers.
I particularly like the Prius artical Barry posted.

[pmreed]

Originally posted by Carl C
One more thought; if we were able to break down water into burnable hydrogen and oxygen would we not be using up a more precious non-renewable resource? There is a finite ammount of water on this planet. Guess what you get when you oxidize (burn) hydrogen.......that's right...water. It takes a good bit of energy to break H2O into H2 + O. When you recombine them, you get energy back + H20. You don't get something for nothing. If you used the generated power to then break down water into H2 and O, then burned it etc. etc., you'd run out of power due to the significant losses in each conversion. The pointy end of the spear in this area of research is finding a cheap way to break down water into it's constituent elements. Then, of course, packaging this process so you can put it into a vehicle. If you're accomplishing the disassociation of the elements in a power plant or stationary factory, now you've got to carry H2 in the vehicle as fuel. Not efficient at all. I think this one is a long way off.
Phil
Oh yeah, I get something over 2 MPG in my 22C. I get 15 MPG in my truck, but I get a lot more "smiles per mile" in the Donzi; and that's where it's at

[peregrine]

....and cheap SOBs that buy a Donzi Classic for a lot more than they could buy any other comparable boat on the water and then complain about how expensive they are to run or cobble them together with shoe string.
WOW! I can't help it if I am new to my career and starting a family and still want a Donzi. ( I am not offended just curious how you can pass judgement since you old coots where there once)
To defend us cheap guys: Why would I pay for a name when I can get the same boat with a little sweat equity for a fraction of the price. What is so special about a marine block that warrants it astronomical price. Hot Rodding was started by guys coming back from WWII on shoestring budgets. The fact that Foose and Boyd have brought those vehicles to 300k is absurd. It takes the fun out of Hot Rodding. I like tinkering almost more than driving, well more like 50/50. I tinker with my brand new truck and my old bike. The alternative fuel thread got started because I was looking for a cheaper alternative to a marine motor. I don't care if it can run on E85. There isn't a station within 200 miles of me.
That's my .02
I will PM you my # and you can esplain a few things to me that I been meaning to ask. Like what is porpoising?

[glashole]

porpoising = bouncing

[gcarter]

WOW! I can't help it if I am new to my career and starting a family and still want a Donzi. ( I am not offended just curious how you can pass judgement since you old coots where there once)
To defend us cheap guys: Why would I pay for a name when I can get the same boat with a little sweat equity for a fraction of the price. What is so special about a marine block that warrants it astronomical price. Hot Rodding was started by guys coming back from WWII on shoestring budgets. The fact that Foose and Boyd have brought those vehicles to 300k is absurd. It takes the fun out of Hot Rodding. I like tinkering almost more than driving, well more like 50/50. I tinker with my brand new truck and my old bike. The alternative fuel thread got started because I was looking for a cheaper alternative to a marine motor. I don't care if it can run on E85. There isn't a station within 200 miles of me.
That's my .02
I will PM you my # and you can esplain a few things to me that I been meaning to ask. Like what is porpoising?
When you consider F & B's overhead in Calif. and the amount of hand metal fabrication in one of their creations, $300K is probably pretty reasonable. I've gone through some mental calculations of what something like that takes and I keep coming up with something more than that figure.
I just recently sold an '86 Minx that I bought in Jan., '04 for $4000.00.
By the time I sold it I had considerably more than $20,000 in it.
I justified it by continuously telling myself I was making payments.....:confused:

[peregrine]

Mr Carter, if you could find me a Minx or a 22C for less than 5k I would be a happy man. I just told Dr. Dan that maybe I could get a 22C minus motor. I have 15k in the bank the wife won't let me touch until we see how this year plays out with little man. I love my son, but he isn't costing that much extra. She is just very cautious with our savings account. Hell, it's not like I have to pay for his college, Grandpa already did when he was born, lock, stock, and barrel. I told her if I saw something that was in the 5k range I was pulling a cash advance on the card if she didn't hand over the savings book. I am going tomorrow to look at hitches for the new truck so when I am ready I can pull the trigger quickly.
You guys may be frustrated with my ?'s and what not, but this is how I make big purchases. I look and ask ?'s for about 6 mos prior to buying than I just show up with it.
As far as F&B, I know what you mean. When we did a resto on an old Jag it would cost 80-150k for a car on it's best day may fetch 85k. The difference is I can do what they do and I have more time than (that much) money.

[roadtrip se]

WOW! I can't help it if I am new to my career and starting a family and still want a Donzi. ( I am not offended just curious how you can pass judgement since you old coots where there once)
To defend us cheap guys: Why would I pay for a name when I can get the same boat with a little sweat equity for a fraction of the price. What is so special about a marine block that warrants it astronomical price. Hot Rodding was started by guys coming back from WWII on shoestring budgets. The fact that Foose and Boyd have brought those vehicles to 300k is absurd. It takes the fun out of Hot Rodding. I like tinkering almost more than driving, well more like 50/50. I tinker with my brand new truck and my old bike. The alternative fuel thread got started because I was looking for a cheaper alternative to a marine motor. I don't care if it can run on E85. There isn't a station within 200 miles of me.
That's my .02
I will PM you my # and you can esplain a few things to me that I been meaning to ask. Like what is porpoising?

Wow, that is harsh. I was definitely not referencing your efforts to get into a Donzi at a price that fits the family budget as cheap. I was referencing those who find a boat that does fit the budget and then whine about the price of fueling them up and all of the other costs associated with performance boat ownership.

One of the reasons I got out of offshore go-fasts of the big variety is exactly what you just referenced. Just because someone has the ability to sign up for a mortgage-sized twenty year loan on a big go fast, doesn't give them the right to become snobs and look down at others.

The beauty of this community is that there is typically a boat for every budget and it brings a cross section of folks into the fold from VP's, sales people, mechanics, and truck drivers. Of course, the opinions and backgrounds that go with such a cross section of folks make for a very lively debate here.

By the way, I am 44, so I am one of the younger coots here!

[gcarter]

Mr Carter, if you could find me a Minx or a 22C for less than 5k I would be a happy man. I just told Dr. Dan that maybe I could get a 22C minus motor. I have 15k in the bank the wife won't let me touch until we see how this year plays out with little man. I love my son, but he isn't costing that much extra. She is just very cautious with our savings account. Hell, it's not like I have to pay for his college, Grandpa already did when he was born, lock, stock, and barrel. I told her if I saw something that was in the 5k range I was pulling a cash advance on the card if she didn't hand over the savings book. I am going tomorrow to look at hitches for the new truck so when I am ready I can pull the trigger quickly.
You guys may be frustrated with my ?'s and what not, but this is how I make big purchases. I look and ask ?'s for about 6 mos prior to buying than I just show up with it.
All you gotta do is keep your eyes open all the time.
They are more plentiful in the Winter.

[CHACHI]

By the time I sold it I had considerably more than $20,000 in it.
I justified it by continuously telling myself I was making payments.....:confused:..............and I was having fun.
Ken

[peregrine]

Wow, that is harsh. I was definitely not referencing your efforts to get into a Donzi at a price that fits the family budget as cheap. I was referencing those who find a boat that does fit the budget and then whine about the price of fueling them up and all of the other costs associated with performance boat ownership.
One of the reasons I got out of offshore go-fasts of the big variety is exactly what you just referenced. Just because someone has the ability to sign up for a mortgage-sized twenty year loan on a big go fast, doesn't give them the right to become snobs and look down at others.
The beauty of this community is that there is typically a boat for every budget and it brings a cross section of folks into the fold from VP's, sales people, mechanics, and truck drivers. Of course, the opinions and backgrounds that go with such a cross section of folks make for a very lively debate here.
By the way, I am 44, so I am one of the younger coots here!
Sorry that wasn't meant to be harsh. It is just hard for me to convey on a board my true meaning. I am just very straight forward, to the point. I am not one to tread lightly. Now that you have clarified your point I recind my statement.
Let's face it. I am some yahoo who never owned a boat and I am in here asking some stupid and not so stupid...OK...they are mostly stupid ?'s. I didn't come here to stir stuff up, but I am less than graciously asking for everyone's .02 on my topics and what I think is important. Their are a few here who haven't received my curiosity so well. Maybe because they are here to chat with people who know what they know and I am the little guy going, "Hey Spike, whatcha doing?", "Hey Spike, whatcha doing?". Like an annoying little brother. I really have a thick skin and I don't mind calling those people onto the carpet because I am an intelligent guy, just ignorant of boats. This really is a fun site for me. I hope that this is just my beginning to a long relationship with the board. Now I just need a boat. Gee....that $1000 Glastron is looking good about now. Oh yeah, by the way, I am not on boards in the summer, so you guys won't have to wait long for a break from me. Too much outside stuff to do. HaHa

[jeddski]

Personally, I think alternative fuel use in a Donzi would be an interesting idea. I've often thought about diesel powered offshore performance boats. They have them in Europe and with the proper engine and gearing the boats could be just as fast as our gas burning Donzi's. I would think a Diesel engine would be better suited for these types of boats? You could run these engines at high load all day which would theoretically allow you to cruise over a long distance at high speed.

For me it isnt about saving $$ at the gas pump but more as an academic trial. If the technology is there to go out and have just as much fun with our performance boats but use less resources why not?

In the other post there was some talk of Bio-Diesel, McD's, and actually getting the oil. I didn’t want to post there but now that we have our own thread...
-Most restaurants actually PAY to have the oil taken away. In raw form the oil needs to be filtered and then run through a Diesel converted to handle GREASE. To get BIO-Diesel you need to add lye to get Bio-diesel and glycerin.

I'd love to get PAID by the fast food places to take their oil and then run it in a performance offshore Donzi hull. Just out of principal. just my $.02

[handfulz28]

I assume you are in the market for a Donzi? Happy to chat. Drop me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call. I see you have a Formula. I had several big offshores, before buying the Classic. Best boating decision I ever made was going to the Classic....

Much abliged RTSE! I have already started bugging Cuda a time or two since he's got direct experience with both the Minx and 22C. That's why I've (mostly) been lurking on here, read & research as much as possible. As much as I like these two, I'm trying hard to not have two boats. I look forward to chatting with you.
Dave (Peregrine), don't hesitate to ask questions, I do the same thing on the Formula forum before (AND after) I bought mine. Sure, there's the occassional question that comes up that's been covered time & again. But there's always new guys who haven't seen it so it's all good.

OK, gotta talk about alternative fuels of some sort so I'm not completely hijacking here. I think diesels will find their way into more applications. Historically they were low RPM, heavy pieces of iron; and if someone wanted to prop it to make speed, the torque would tear it all apart. But nowadays they're spinning them to higher RPMs and a motor like the Duramax weighs pretty close to a BBC; it might actually weigh the same as an all-iron Merc BBC for example. And drive systems are getting strong enough to handle the torque. NO, I wouldn't want one in a Donzi. But a 30+ offshore would be a great platform to be able to run 50mph at 20gph.

For the cabin fever sufferers, think warm thoughts....vrooom vrooom...

[BigGrizzly]

Mr Falcon. Funny you should talk about marinized. Two things I checked on today, there is opposition on the marine front to the E85 fuel at the marina and engine manufacturers. On the flex fuel engine the ECU does the work combined with the O2 sensors. So far only after market ecm are available that can be tuned to the wet application. Geeo did his but would remove the sensors. the flex fuel needs them all the time. At this time only one motor successfully uses O2 sensors and that is Honda Marine.So in conclusion if you could make it work. you wouldn't be able to buy E85 at the marina and the engine would get worse mpg on it if filled at a gas station. Don confuse E85 with the alcohol used in race application, that is different, but is still much more volumeto make the same HP.
__________________

[handfulz28]

Yeah, the resistance comes from the fact that ethanol seperates over time and is not compatible with non-metallic fuel tanks.
As for the ECU/O2 hurdle, I have a set of marine exhaust risers with O2 sensor bungs welded in. What I want to figure out is why "marine" ECUs hold this aura of exclusivity. I mean you can't get more simple in an electronic controller: a few inputs (throttle position, air temp, coolant temp), cross reference to a hard-coded mixture chart and maybe spark control, then output injector pulse-width and timing advance.
Throwing in the O2 sensor provides a means by which to optimize the mixture. I see no reason why a "land based" ECU can't be used on a "marinized" engine, especially when you have O2 input now. Yes, a lot of initial R&D would be needed to re-map the fuel trims (fuel mixture) to represent a "marine" power load, but I suspect it would fall somewhere within the closed-loop and open-loop parameters.

[BUIZILLA]

in a perfect marine environment, if the 02 sensors were not in the dampness stream, then it might work, but every setup would have to have them placed way before the water dump so as not to mix water *mist* in it's readings.... if every exhaust exited the water way down the fall out stream it might work, but due to compact sizing of engine packages this just isn't becoming a feasible alternative.... a dry exhaust with a seperate race style water dump would work however.

JH

[gcarter]

BTW, I rode in the 28ZX with the 315 Yanmars with one of the Mastrey boys, Habib I believe.. 60 MPH @ 20 GPH was all she did at that time.. Now the 440 Yanmar powered Spectre Cat Ted took me for a ride in was an entirely different animal... And no, I didnt look @ the GPH @ 90 + MPH :) :)
Here's my diesel of choice;
SeaTek 10.3 L racing engine
28" W
59" L w/tranny
1900# w/tranny
1180 hp @3400 RPM

These engines were developed by Fabio Buzzi and have been very successful in Europe

[Cuda]

Now the 440 Yanmar powered Spectre Cat Ted took me for a ride in was an entirely different animal... And no, I didnt look @ the GPH @ 90 + MPH :) :)
Was that the 32 Spectre with a two speed transmission owned by Nick Buis? If so, he told me there was more speed left, but he was limited by the props he could get, without ponying up the big bucks for a special set of Herrings. He had it here in Daytona a couple years ago for the PRA poker run. He told me he ran in the poker run to St Augustine and back, launched on the river here somewhere, ran to Silver Glen and back, and burned an unbelievably small amount of diesel. He had it over this way at the Toys for Tots run on Lake Harris that same year.

Here's the boat.

[peregrine]

Mr Falcon. Funny you should talk about marinized. Two things I checked on today, there is opposition on the marine front to the E85 fuel at the marina and engine manufacturers. On the flex fuel engine the ECU does the work combined with the O2 sensors. So far only after market ecm are available that can be tuned to the wet application. Geeo did his but would remove the sensors. the flex fuel needs them all the time. At this time only one motor successfully uses O2 sensors and that is Honda Marine.So in conclusion if you could make it work. you wouldn't be able to buy E85 at the marina and the engine would get worse mpg on it if filled at a gas station. Don confuse E85 with the alcohol used in race application, that is different, but is still much more volumeto make the same HP.
__________________
Actually I am not confusing the race gas from the E85. The GM guy told me there was a drag racer that was running it vs race gas and doing well. I forgot the guys name (racer). I have yet to talk to my GM buddy. When I do I will tell you all he had to say about E85. He is a big proponent of it and is one of the main people getting these stations put up on the east coast. This is what HE said. Minxguy pointed out some obvious fact to me today and I really felt stupid for overlooking it. The Flex fuel motor has better lines, tanks, etc... to prevent the corrosion, whereas a marine motor has the anti corrosive parts where the coolant touches it. That simple fact blows my whole idea out of the water. Pun intended.
Don't worry guys I don't feel picked on, in fact you all have been very hospitable.

[BigGrizzly]

Don't worry, some new stuff is happening. Like Buzz said the issue is also with O2 sensors getting wet. I just lost one in my jeep for getting too much moisture. I took the bad part to work and the engineer took it over and did his thing and asked how I got it wet? I did something stupid I was sitting in a parking lot in a down pour for 40 minutes with the engine idling while i was on the phone. I don't know how it happened, but the engine light cam on and it was gone. Also funny I had my code reader with me, and I only carry that on trips. This I can tell you, they are working on marine exhaust that will work with O2 at this moment. How long before they are complete I can't tell you.

[gcarter]

Don't worry, some new stuff is happening. Like Buzz said the issue is also with O2 sensors getting wet. I just lost one in my jeep for getting too much moisture. I took the bad part to work and the engineer took it over and did his thing and asked how I got it wet? I did something stupid I was sitting in a parking lot in a down pour for 40 minutes with the engine idling while i was on the phone. I don't know how it happened, but the engine light cam on and it was gone. Also funny I had my code reader with me, and I only carry that on trips. This I can tell you, they are working on marine exhaust that will work with O2 at this moment. How long before they are complete I can't tell you.
This makes sense Randy.
After all, how long will it be before they require cats on new boats?

[BigGrizzly]

I don,t want to tell you this but there is talk. At this point Honda is ahead by beating all the future emissions without them. However the EPA has bigger fish to fry at this moment. I was trying to stay out of it but they keep calling me back to work as a contractor. So much for retirement, but it buys gas.

[Cuda]

I read this today in Motor Boating magazine.

[DONZI]

Apologies to peregrine for all of the hijackings that took place in his "flexfuel" thread.
Let's dedicate a thread that will continue the conversation about alternative fuels and the future of pleasure boating.
Post on! Here's an old thread on a Propane powered 18 Classic.
The news link w/pics is gone, but it was nicely done. I wonder if it's still running ?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26364&highlight=propane

My old screen name (KMLFAMILY)

[BaldEagle]

My motorcycles get 50 mpg, my diesel car gets 37/27, and Corvette even gets 28 mpg ( if your on cruise). My bicycle even does better, and I've heard they are working on a new hybrid fluxcapacitor that only requires 25 gigawatts to activate, and runs on doube As up until mach 2.

My Donzi, well not as good. Lets see, it will probably use 500 gallons of gas this season. If it even costs $ 4.00 /gallon thats $ 2,000. Maybe I'll cut out beer for a week.
No, that wont work.

[FUELPOWERED]

Anyone see the movie Syriana? I caught bits and pieces of it. One part I can't get out of my head is the scene about "corruption". Man, that is some scary ****. I'm kind of ashamed if that's the way things really are.

[gold-n-rod]

Here's an interesting theory.....

This is a very poorly written article, BTW, but the theory is interesting.


Published April 12, 2007

[ From Lansing State Journal ]
Analyst: Renewables to force lower gas prices

Barbara Wieland

Lansing State Journal

Summer drivers could be in for a lucky break, if a prediction from a leading automotive analyst holds true.

David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, said that oil companies may try to stave off competition from renewable fuels by dropping the price of oil, driving gasoline prices down to as much as $1.50 per gallon.

He spoke to a luncheon gathering sponsored by the Greater Lansing Business Monthly magazine Wednesday.

That would be good news for drivers in Lansing, where the price for a gallon of regular topped out at $2.99 Wednesday, according to the Web site lansinggas prices.com.

It's existing technologies that could spook prices at the pump, Cole said.

"We will see a concerted effort to kill off this technology. How will they kill it off? Pricing," he said.

[BaldEagle]

Don't discount the fact that big oil is also investing in renewable energy and alternative sources.

[BaldEagle]

Also average Americans really get fairly good mileage.

A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year.

Another study found that Americans drink an average of 22 gallons of beer a year.

That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles per gallon.

[BaldEagle]

Also average Americans really get fairly good mileage.
A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year.
Another study found that Americans drink an average of 22 gallons of beer a year.
That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles per gallon.

[roadtrip se]

Also average Americans really get fairly good mileage.
A recent study found that the average American walks about 900 miles a year.
Another study found that Americans drink an average of 22 gallons of beer a year.
That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles per gallon.

because I run on bourbon and the occassional tequila too!

Thanks for the laugh...