mobil synthetic

[Johntrip]

Tomorrow my boat goes in for service.... I have approx. 270 hrs on reg. Merc. oil but I was thinking of switching over. Would it make since to switch having the hours in or not.?????

[Johntrip]

Damb.... I should have done a search on here before I asked... I have 2 days worth of posts to analyze on this.....:eek!: :bonk: :bonk:

[Sofa King]

I switched from Dino to Mobile one at 270 hrs on my 454. It now runs 15 degrees cooler 165 from 175-180 and at higher rpms. I also use the Mobile 1 302 filter. Do NOT pay extra for the V Twin as it is a rip (at least $2 a quart more), just get the 20-50. :wink:

[Pismo]

Read

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107808

for all you need to know plus.


VTwin and Mobil1 20W-50 are very different animals.

Vtwin or the new Silver cap Mobil1 15W-50 seem to be the current winners in Mobil products.

[Sofa King]

LOL,whatever makes you sleep at night.

[BigGrizzly]

What I think is so funny, no one has done the tests I have done yet they are all experts because the read something or somebody said this or that. My company spent thousands of dollars testing real world and real engines. We talked to engineers, watched their smoke and mirror presentations and than did real testing. I have a question for king if your 454 has a thermostat how can it run cooler unless the t- stat or gage is broken is broken.

[MOP]

But then there is always "Spectro" which beats both the Vtwin and Mobil in independent testing!

The truth be known 90 some odd % of the guys just do not derive enough real benefit or put enough time on to justify the extra expense!

[Johntrip]

Ok......... I just got done reading all the posts on here and the extensive oil thread on OSO and I've come to the conclusion that the best oil for me to use is .......... (drum roll).......(drum roll) :bonk: I was hoping I would decide before I finished typing drum roll.....????? I flipped a coin and I'm going with Mobil 1 20w50. Going to put about 15 hrs in and replace oil again... Final deciding factor was my engines should run a bit lower temp. I use the boat alot so I'm not to worried about the settling...

[Sofa King]

Good choice John, report to the non believers of the drop in your temp.

[Beny]

Hi all
I think I have to go with the Griz on this. Thermostat dos not know what oil is in the pan and dos not care! It only sees water temp and open and closes to maintain temp!
Now That being sed what I would like to see Is oil temp And even that may not mean a lot.
If cooler dose it mean its doing a better job?
Or is not doing as good a job?
Can be many reasons for this!
The les friction leas heat!
Good transporter of heat and cools good!
BAD transporter of heat!
Hows this If it was doing a better job as a lube would it not get hotter absorbing all that friction??
I KNOW I KNOW they tell us.
Any change in air temp ? Air plays a role in cooling!!!
I have just went to Amzoil in my truck!
But I am truly still on the fence!!
Just thinken.Beny

[gcarter]

About six months before I sold the Minx, I changed from Mobil 1 20-50 to Spectro 20-50. I noticed two things; while running hard, pressure w/Spectro was able to maintain near 50 PSI, and Mobil 1 couldn't. Same at idle, after running hard, the Spectro gave a 5-10 PSI higher pressure.
It was a pretty dramatic difference.

[CHACHI]

Hi all
I think I have to go with the Griz on this. Thermostat dos not know what oil is in the pan and dos not care! It only sees water temp and open and closes to maintain temp!
Now That being sed what I would like to see Is oil temp And even that may not mean a lot.
If cooler dose it mean its doing a better job?
Or is not doing as good a job?
Can be many reasons for this!
The les friction leas heat!
Good transporter of heat and cools good!
BAD transporter of heat!
Hows this If it was doing a better job as a lube would it not get hotter absorbing all that friction??
I KNOW I KNOW they tell us.
Any change in air temp ? Air plays a role in cooling!!!
I have just went to Amzoil in my truck!
But I am truly still on the fence!!
Just thinken.BenyIf an oil is is doing a better job of taking heat away from the bottom of pistons, cylinder walls and all the other things it lubricates, the oil temp in the sump will rise. This is a function of viscosity. A 10wX will remove more heat than a 20wX.
20w"s run "cooler" on sump temps because they just don't pick up the heat as fast as 10w's. Do these temp differences make a difference in the real world? Probably not.
As Mop has stated 90% of the people or perhaps even more will not see the benifit of switching to a full synthetic. Most of them just change the oil too often. Is it then worth the extra $? Peace of mind I guess, but that would be your call.

If your engine is running that hot and you think changing to a synthetic will "solve " the problem, you would be better off running more cooling capacity with radiators or oil coolers. The synthetic will just take the high heat longer before oxidizing (thicking up).
Ken
PS Mr. Carter, I thank you.

[Pismo]

99 cent WalMart oil will probably do just as well in a low/non-performance engine that is run easily. That is what I used in my 305 Mercruiser 228 for 25 years and over 3000 hours run time without any problems or rebuilds. Changed it once a season with off the shelf filters. A 650hp 502 with a blower I am sure would need something better, but not most engines.

[BUIZILLA]

let me get this straight King.... a FWC 496HO, thermostat controlled, closed cooling engine, is going to run cooler water temps, with synthetic???

don't e_v_e_n get me started here...

hold me back Julio....

hold me back..

[Sofa King]

Don't even get me started how synthetic lowered the temp of my H/D but of course that doesn't have a stat....

[BUIZILLA]

an aircooled HD with an expansion tank huh?? compared to a fresh water cooled marine engine???

Julio, your losing your grip...

[Sofa King]

Buzzbee, Maybe my Tstat lies, let's wait and see what John reports...

[gcarter]

Why is it that some people here that find themselves w/their feet in their mouths, can't admit they don't know what they're talking about????:bonk:

[BUIZILLA]

SK, i'm a mod on 2 or 3 other boards, with a combined total of over 20,000 members, and a few million posts...

for the first time in my life, your now on my iggy list, the #1 and only iggy, ever.

congrat's.

JH

[gcarter]

P.S.;
My temperature never varied.

[Sofa King]

Buzzbee, you seem like a perfect Ass Man.

[CHACHI]

P.S.;
My temperature never varied..........didn't think it would.
Ken

[Johntrip]

sorry guys...... I should of never brought this up..........

[Barry Eller]

Griz and Buizilla...what oil do you use?
I'm sure its what I want to use.

[98shovel]

I love the debate over oil and water temp
its kind like the debate over horsepower and tourqe how many poeple know or can tell the differents
ps some people think a shoe tastes good

[Craig S]

99 cent WalMart oil will probably do just as well in a low/non-performance engine that is run easily.

Thats what I do on my (1 running) boat right now. Now the rest of the stuff...truck/bikes/hot rod/lawn mower (especially that poor guy), synthetic. But I'm gentle on my boat and don't run a whole lot of hours a year. That way, I can change every year and not think of the carnage in the billfold.

[jeff85m]

this is an easy performance upgrade but will make no difference in your boats top speed. i ran a dyno test on a 426 mopar and we picked up 11 horsepower in a ten minute oil change and that was after dialing in all other variables to peak performance. it really does make more h.p. but like a car it takes several combinations of horsepower increases to see faster top speeds or quicker e.t.s. these were performed at the "wop shop" in houston texas.

[MOP]

I have seen similar test results, no question there is a pony or two extra but in our rigs it takes a lot of ponies to make a difference. I am making about 60-70hp more now that equated to 4+ MPH gain, it was an expensive trip getting there. I have been running Kendell GT1 20-50 but now have Spectro, I have a real good handle on how my pressure reacts at different operating loads, spring is getting super close testing is coming!

Phil

[Barry Eller]

Bob Teague, from PowerBoat Magazine, once recommended Kendall GT-1 50 weight. Something about synthetic being too slippery for roller cams. He stated the rollers on the lifters could slide on the cam instead of rolling. I was using Delo 40w in the 502 before my problems. I'm sure oil wasn't my issue.

[gcarter]

Bob Teague, from PowerBoat Magazine, once recommended Kendall GT-1 50 weight. Something about synthetic being too slippery for roller cams. He stated the rollers on the lifters could slide on the cam instead of rolling.
I can't help but wonder if this is any other than a fable.....I've never read any evidence of this actually happening. I've not even seen any anecdotal evidence. Considering that probably more than half of engines today have rollers in the valve train and the number of engines using synthetics, if this were true, it would be showing up everywhere.

[BUIZILLA]

Barry, I like Delo 400 a lot, keep with that program, I use it in most everything now, except my coach uses Cummins Blue, which is Valvoline HD 15W40 with a dye.... my .02 on this synthetic thingy is this, and this is strictly my opinion here... our engines just don't see elevated oil tempuratures with 145*-170* 'stat's, that would really define the necessity for syn lubes in the crankcase. With that said, syn in the crankcase of a cold natured engine is a waste of $$$. Unless you just want a mental comfort factor. We're not talking all aluminum Caddy's that run 230* all day along... Peep's with syn change their oil the same intervals as those who don't, so where's the issue here? The Merc 20W40, Delo400 15W40, Mobil Delvac 15W40, Kendall GT1 15W40, Texaco Fire & Ice 15W40 works for me. I was a BIG Rotella fan until they changed the formula a couple years back, it's still good, just not as good as before... I disagree on straight 50#, too much unnecessary strain on the oil pump gears, shaft, and camshaft drive gears. I do NOT like Castrol GTX, whatsoever, and that's not up for debate, that **** is crap... Quaker State has some temperature tolerance issues too... I do NOT like Fram filters. I have used 0W20 in some race engines for qualifying, then changed to 10W30 Amsoil, Royal Purple or Mobil 1 at race time. Syn oil WILL find new leaky holes, it's just the molecular nature. I am a BIG fan of syn gearcase lubes. You WILL make more HP with 10W30, than 20W50, simple load rationale. Spectro is a very good oil, but i've never tested it myself, for availability reasons. In my new Harley I ran as high as 266* with their factory oil, with Amsoil it ran 252*, with an extra cooler it now runs 215*-220*. This was one day to the next, same weather, traffic, and road conditions. I have NEVER seen lower water temps in a marine engine with properly sized water cooling systems, just by changing to any syn oil. None, nada, zippo, zero. I have seen oil pressure stabilization/fluctuation however, between various oils in the same marine engines, as little as 5#, to as much as 20#, depending on oil brand and weight. My Duramax at 2000 rpm picked up almost 20# just changing out the factory oil and i'm now religiously using Delo 400, that folks, is a BIG difference. Everybody has a different taste for oils like they do tires, prop's, truck colors, battery's, and underwear choices... all I can emphasize is to do prudent research based on your REALITY needs, and comfort levels, in making your decisions.

[BUIZILLA]

I can't help but wonder if this is any other than a fable.....I've never read any evidence of this actually happening. I've not even seen any anecdotal evidence. Considering that probably more than half of engines today have rollers in the valve train and the number of engines using synthetics, if this were true, it would be showing up everywhere. actually GC, this CAN happen. It is most dependent on lobe ramp speed profile and lobe nose profile. And it happened to me on a '96 454 GMC dually I had... But, in reality, valve spring pressure really controls the roller to lobe contact pressure right?? so, with proper seat pressure of at least 135-150# using a roller lifter, you won't see a problem here, with 105-120 or less, it can be an issue. It's a rare occurence, but it can happen. As engines age, spring pressure tames itself and it can happen. Our biggest problem is letting an engine sit in one position all winter without turning it over, so the open valve springs don't take a relaxed set. I am extremely guilty of this myself, as we all are. By also using full roller rockers with roller lifters, you can relieve the geometry *tension*, to help free up the lifter roller within it's theatre of events.

JH

[gcarter]

actually GC, this CAN happen. It is most dependent on lobe ramp speed profile and lobe nose profile. And it happened to me on a '96 454 GMC dually I had... But, in reality, valve spring pressure really controls the roller to lobe contact pressure right?? so, with proper seat pressure of at least 135-150# using a roller lifter, you won't see a problem here, with 105-120 or less, it can be an issue. It's a rare occurence, but it can happen. As engines age, spring pressure tames itself and it can happen. Our biggest problem is letting an engine sit in one position all winter without turning it over, so the open valve springs don't take a relaxed set. I am extremely guilty of this myself, as we all are. By also using full roller rockers with roller lifters, you can relieve the geometry *tension*, to help free up the lifter roller within it's theatre of events.
JH
Jim, are you saying it is ONLY a roller/spring pressure issue? So did synthetic oil enter into your issue?

[Barry Eller]

Barry, I like Delo 400 a lot, keep with that program, I use it in most everything now, except my coach uses Cummins Blue, which is Valvoline HD 15W40 with a dye....

Thank You. I understand that Delo is good in a marine environment. Something about its condensation tolerance?

A straight weight oil clings to the bearings better than multiple viscosity oil also. A good thing when a engine is not started every day like a car. Marine engine bearing clearances are also greater than automobile engines. We need the cushion of straight weight oil.

By the way, I'll be pulling my 502 next week. I've made my decisions on my new cam and valve train. It's going to be interesting and FUN!

Parts are ordered!

[BUIZILLA]

GC, actually my engine came with 5W30 from the factory, when I went to 15W40 dino, the noise went away. This was the first year for Vortec rollers and they had some noise issues with a few. They guy I sold it to in 1998 lives about 2 minutes from me and still has it, no noise, in fact I sold my little Mako to him recently and he pulls it with that truck, he also has an 18 Donzi, 28 Cig side console, and a ton of other toys.

JH

[BigGrizzly]

Some day when we are all sitting around the camp fire I will give you all the stuff on the oils even if I did it in a post several years back. What I will say in my Air cooled race bikes Amsoil does lower the engine temps. However in 6 months of testing, not one Honda or any other thermostat controlled engine dropped one degree because of an oil change. I can tell you the gages that I used are accurate to less than one degree C. The problem I have with these statements as does Buzz, is some poor person reads this and believes it and and tells some one else all of a sudden we have a falsely generated fact. I do not use synthetic in any of my boats or cars except in the rears ,trans and lower units. I was sponsored by Amsoil and its free for my stuff. Btw who in this besides me has ever put a pyrometer in the oil pan and run an engine for 24 hours straight? Who has dismantled engines after 400 hours and measured bearings cranks, rods, pistons and cylinder walls then do it again with another brand of oil. If you haven't, then your just guessing. Pesmo as for the cheap Walmart oil- check the API rating on it. In reality, it really isn't bad at all. As for what Buzz says about the straigh weight oils- HE IS correct, there is no question of that. As a matter of fact in 1982 The Honda accord had that exact problem caused because dealers were using too heavy a oil in a cold climate. we sent a letter to all the dealers in the northern cold states to address this. I don't care what OSO and the so called independent surveys say. BTW who funded these Surveys? My grand father use to say that theory is good but HONEST testing is TRUTH!!!!

[Pismo]

I too find it hard to understand the roller lifter/synthetic oil problem. If there is so little friction that the roller won't roll then how can there be so much friction that damage occurs. Maybe on the ramp up there is no early rolling then it crashes into the cam lobe at the peak of the lobe as spring tension builds or on the back side? Something? I can't really see it. It is also very hard for me the outright disregard statements from Teague and other very knowledgable people who state that this problem truly exists. One source said to use a synthetic, like VTwin, which is very low in Moly which is a very slippery additive to decrease this risk/problem. On another subject, I have also read that multi synthetics behave more like a single weight of the upper number, 20W-50 syn behaves similarly to a straight 50.? Any thoughts/comments on these ideas?

[mphatc]

I guess some guys should stay on the big couch . . .

James and Randy, some folks are to stubborn to understand . :bonk: . the folks that matter know this as well:yes: :)

let's go boating!:boat:

mario

[BigGrizzly]

Oils have a term called shear strength. that is the ability to adhere to a substance. The roller skids on an acceleration ramp to high lift part of the lobe. I have heard it is especially big on hi performance marine use. However we have seen it on drag race and road race cars just as often. I have seen the cams and lifters with the gaul marks on them. However I haven't seen one on a overhead cam engine that I can remember. There could be other issues but all of ours were on synthetic oils application. In my oil testing I never ran across this problem. I'm with you Mario, even if it is a little cold tomorrow I'm going boating.

[gcarter]

Oils have a term called shear strength. that is the ability to adhere to a substance. The roller skids on an acceleration ramp to high lift part of the lobe. I have heard it is especially big on hi performance marine use. However we have seen it on drag race and road race cars just as often. I have seen the cams and lifters with the gaul marks on them. However I haven't seen one on a overhead cam engine that I can remember. There could be other issues but all of ours were on synthetic oils application. In my oil testing I never ran across this problem. I'm with you Mario, even if it is a little cold tomorrow I'm going boating.
Randy, if a roller is already turning several thousand RPM, why would it suddenly STOP turning just because it came in contact with the ramp? Doesn't that defy physics?

[BigGrizzly]

George first of it isn't turning several thousand rpms. look at the timing gear vs the driven gear on the crank. It is the sudden acceleration that does it, so I am told. I do know, even as hard as the roller id if it jumps because of too radical ramp and weak springs the roller will dent even thoe the cam is quite bit softer on the Rockwell scale. I don't fully under stand it. I have seen the results and Garry says it happens and so does Warren Johnson, so I will just believe them .

[mphatc]

As I have been told . . what do I know, :confused: all the engines I build are OHC 4 valve per cylinder . .

My undertanding of roller cams "sliding" on cam ramps is caused at high rpms with stock valve springs . . which is why roller cams run stiffer springs.

James . . is this correct?

Mario

[BUIZILLA]

stop and think about this for a sec....

the radii of the heel of the lobe, versus the radii of the peak of the lobe...

and how that would correspond to the roller *speed change*, from a fast radii to a soft radii, and back to a fast radii...

i'm going to bed...

[Barry Eller]

Well....I am going to continue to use Delo 400 40w...So there....:yes:


Opinions are like...#*&%$ %#@*'s, we all have them!

I respect all of your opinions...even the ones I don't agree with. Do what works for you.:yes:

[gcarter]

stop and think about this for a sec....
the radii of the heel of the lobe, versus the radii of the peak of the lobe...
and how that would correspond to the roller *speed change*, from a fast radii to a soft radii, and back to a fast radii...
i'm going to bed...
Ok Jim...now I get it!!!:eek!: :eek!:
It still may have more to do with spring pressure than syn oil.

[Pismo]

Some day when we are all sitting around the camp fire I will give you all the stuff on the oils even if I did it in a post several years back. What I will say in my Air cooled race bikes Amsoil does lower the engine temps. However in 6 months of testing, not one Honda or any other thermostat controlled engine dropped one degree because of an oil change. I can tell you the gages that I used are accurate to less than one degree C. The problem I have with these statements as does Buzz, is some poor person reads this and believes it and and tells some one else all of a sudden we have a falsely generated fact. I do not use synthetic in any of my boats or cars except in the rears ,trans and lower units. I was sponsored by Amsoil and its free for my stuff. Btw who in this besides me has ever put a pyrometer in the oil pan and run an engine for 24 hours straight? Who has dismantled engines after 400 hours and measured bearings cranks, rods, pistons and cylinder walls then do it again with another brand of oil. If you haven't, then your just guessing. Pesmo as for the cheap Walmart oil- check the API rating on it. In reality, it really isn't bad at all. As for what Buzz says about the straigh weight oils- HE IS correct, there is no question of that. As a matter of fact in 1982 The Honda accord had that exact problem caused because dealers were using too heavy a oil in a cold climate. we sent a letter to all the dealers in the northern cold states to address this. I don't care what OSO and the so called independent surveys say. BTW who funded these Surveys? My grand father use to say that theory is good but HONEST testing is TRUTH!!!!

So what oil do you recommend for us roller setup guys? Which one turned out to be best in your studies? Thanks

[CHACHI]

Oils have a term called shear strength. that is the ability to adhere to a substance.
Engine oil manufactures have to deal with a issue called shear stability. Indirectly, the shear stabily of the oil does affect its ability to cling to surfaces.
Shear stability has to do with an additive called a polymer. A polymer is what makes an oil multi-viscosity. Straight weight oils do not have polymers.
When polymers start to shear, the oil starts to fall out of grade. Straight weight oils cannot fall out of grade because they have no polymer. (They can fall out of grade from other reasons such as fuel dilution, but we are not talking about that). A oil that has been modified with a polymer will have a much better ability to cling to parts for extended periods of time. When the polymer starts shearing the oil starts to loose that benifit. When cheap polymers are used, additives such as STP and Lucas oil stabilizer are sold to the consumer to "bring back" the viscosity as well as the clingability. We have all seen the gear display at NAPA to show this benifit in action.
All polymers in oils will shear, because as you use the oil it will oxidize. Oxidation is a chemical reaction between the oil molecules and oxygen that causes the oil to thicken. If the polymer didn't shear, the oil would become a heavier viscosity and over time, lots "o" time, become so thick you wouldn't be able to drain it. yes, there are additives to control oxidation, but over time they are also consumed. This is one of the reasons we change our oil.

Synthetic base stocks are more shear stable than petroleum so less polymer is needed. Some synthetic oils are formulated with no polymer so change in viscosity from shearing is a moot point.

Ken

[CHACHI]

[QUOTE=BUIZILLA;407009]Barry, I like Delo 400 a lot, keep with Blue, which is Valvoline HD 15W40 with a dye.... my .02 on this synthetic thingy is this, and this is strictly my opinion here... our engines just don't see elevated oil tempuratures with 145*-170* 'stat's, that would really define the necessity for syn lubes in the crankcase. With that said, syn in the crankcase of a cold natured engine is a waste of $$$. Unless you just want a mental comfort factor. We're not talking all aluminum Caddy's that run 230* all day along... ]
Synthetic oils will outperform petroleum oils in 3 areas. Cold weather pumpability. I'm talking real cold here -35 or colder, high heat, sump temps close to 300 or more, and extended drains. New cars are pushing the drains out to 15,000 or more miles.
In these extremes synthetics are a no brainer, as Buizilla said, "our engines don't see elevated oil temps.

Ken

[Barry Eller]

So what oil do you recommend for us roller setup guys? Which one turned out to be best in your studies? Thanks

Straight weight Dino. I'm in Florida. My 502 came with roller lifters. It will have roller rockers too when I'm finnished. I will stay with Delo 40W in my 502.

I change my oil and filter every 25 hours of running.

[BigGrizzly]

The answer to your question on roller cams-use a good name brand non synthetic oil. Of all the synthetics oils out there and there were 55 different ones, not counting the ones that just had lables changed. Mobil was the least impressive-both their racing and their normal kind. the synthetics that I would use in my non rollar applications is Amsoil and Redline oils. There are a lot of Spectro fan out there, the thing i can say is it is in the upper quarter. as fot their petroleum base, its in the bottom half of the petroleum category. Most of the oils out there are mad by only a couple of companies. To make it different they use slightly different additives. As stated above "polymers". The biggest surprise was 10w40 preforned the worst regardless who mad it. For instance if pensoil mad it it was the worst oil they sold, sane with quaker state and castrol etc. Lets just say I gave i5 cases of my personal stock away after the test. Fact is 10w30 out performed the 10w40 by a long shot in every condition of heat and cold, a big shock. than I read a GM bulletin from 1984 that said they would void a warranty if it was used! I can't tell you who makes whos oil because that was our agreement and I won't violate that confidence.

[gcarter]

The answer to your question on roller cams-use a good name brand non synthetic oil. Of all the synthetics oils out there and there were 55 different ones, not counting the ones that just had lables changed. Mobil was the least impressive-both their racing and their normal kind. the synthetics that I would use in my non rollar applications is Amsoil and Redline oils. There are a lot of Spectro fan out there, the thing i can say is it is in the upper quarter. as fot their petroleum base, its in the bottom half of the petroleum category. Most of the oils out there are mad by only a couple of companies. To make it different they use slightly different additives. As stated above "polymers". The biggest surprise was 10w40 preforned the worst regardless who mad it. For instance if pensoil mad it it was the worst oil they sold, sane with quaker state and castrol etc. Lets just say I gave i5 cases of my personal stock away after the test. Fact is 10w30 out performed the 10w40 by a long shot in every condition of heat and cold, a big shock. than I read a GM bulletin from 1984 that said they would void a warranty if it was used! I can't tell you who makes whos oil because that was our agreement and I won't violate that confidence.
Randy;
In '86 & '87, I was working...er, uh, jobshopping for Hydramatic in Ann Arbor. This stipulation about the 10-40 is true!!

[CHACHI]

The answer to your question on roller cams-use a good name brand non synthetic oil. Of all the synthetics oils out there and there were 55 different ones, not counting the ones that just had lables changed.
Randy, how many years ago did you conduct these tests?
Ken

[BigGrizzly]

WE have conducted the test every two years since 1990. I did the first one with one other guy, now we distribute the agony between 10 of us and three divisions. the last results were in Feb of 06 and completer in California. The weird part is the tests turn out the same every time. the middle road types swap positions once in awhile but no drastic changes. The reason we do it is the Api ratings. We do it to protect warranty and for reasons such as we putting our name on the can/bottle. It started because sole source of power generators failed than we had to know why. We examined several independent testers and they were in complete in the process. Then there was the accessory meeting-never mind its too long a story.