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gcarter
02-11-2007, 06:17 AM
Toyota is spending $200,000,000.00 (no typos here.. http://www.nypost.com/seven/02112007/business/full_speed_ahead_business_holly_m__sanders.htm )
introducing and boosting its new Heavy Duty Tundra pickup in NASCAR and other places. :eek!: :lightning :shocking: :yes:
Are farmers, construction workers, and city slicker wannabees gonna go for it?

BUIZILLA
02-11-2007, 06:48 AM
actually, if you read CLOSER, they are spending $300,000,000.00

no typo there either....

my 2004 Tundra shop truck has been phenominal, I luv 'em, and I don't care what anyone else thinks... it'll out haul ANYTHING a 1/2 ton Ford or GM will, (i've owned them ALL) and it's smaller, more nimble, more peppy with the V6, built perfectly, doesn't rattle, doesn't moan.... 57,000 miles and not a trip back to the dealer, in fact other than oil changes and a set of tires I haven't spent one extra penny on it, not one penny... my 2003 Tundra was destroyed in an accident that even loosened the body from the frame (broke 3 out of 4 cab mounts), and the right side valve cover broke the radio in the dash, all the glass stayed intact (think about that for a sec, then read it again)... my driver walked away, not even a bruise, he insisted I buy him another one or he wasn't driving for me anymore, I bought a 2004 that day, best damm all around shop delivery trucks i've had in 25 years... :yes: I look forward to seeing what Toyo does with an HD Tundra, maybe i'll trade my F250 shop truck in on one in a couple years (my 2004 F250 has been repair free up to now too)... when you look at that commercial they now have showing it towing 10,000# up a 15% grade, and stopping it, 0-70 in 8 seconds (yes, I timed it).... if that is 100% true, there's not a gas powered Ford or GM 1/2 or 3/4 ton on the lot that can match that right now. Period.

Is it a coincidence that BOTH GM and Ford are releasing '08 product now???? I think not...

JH

realbold
02-11-2007, 07:51 AM
:uzi: **** that jap ****

rustnrot
02-11-2007, 07:59 AM
I think Toyota can pull it off. Even though I do not own one at present, I gotta give them credit for capturing market share and profitability. I grew up in the Detroit area, where everyone worked for the auto industry...and I was a staunch (blind?) supporter of the then "big 3". As far as I am concerned, the so-called "big 3" had the last 30 years to get it right after "last time", and they still can't do it!
Meanwhile, Toyota Racing Development has moved from CA to North Carolina where they certainly have no trouble finding empty warehouse space due to the now defunct US furniture manufacturing there. Bravo for them having plants and facilities in the US -- I think that makes a big difference in their "acceptability".

Tony
02-11-2007, 01:58 PM
:uzi: **** that jap ****

WTF????



:beer:

f_inscreenname
02-11-2007, 05:08 PM
With marketing money like that and some people wonder why it costs 40 grand for a pick up. :bonk:

Carl C
02-11-2007, 06:19 PM
Please don't let the japs get our fulls size truck market . American trucks are better anyway. My previous F-150 had over 300,000 miles ('79 model) and still ran when I sold it a year ago. It takes a lot of years to tweak a truck to that level of durability. Oh yeah, and it still towed my 22C. Now I have a '95 with 80,000 miles, still a nice truck and a good tow truck. :)

realbold
02-11-2007, 07:27 PM
WTF????
:beer:
Didn't think I had to spell it out. F___ that jap chit

need for speed
02-11-2007, 07:47 PM
Screw the riceburners.. I know what my next truck is going to be....


I like that thing!!

BUIZILLA
02-11-2007, 07:54 PM
at least it's a classy color....

SideshowRob
02-12-2007, 05:39 PM
Say what you want about Japanease vehicles, but they are destroying the domestic market. Why? Because they build better vehicles! Don't take it personally if you happen to work for one of the "old Three" It's not your fault. Face the facts though, overall the foreign products are better, hell even Kia's are taking a good share of business from the domestics. My buddy has a Kia (whatever SUV) He loves it, he's 6'2" 260lbs, and swears he's buying another one. He's had this one for a while now. They are reasonably priced, have an awesome warranty, and getting a good reputation. Fire your guns all you want, but if North American auto makers don't shape up, they are going to continue to lose ground. The big 3 are so far behind in emissions they can't be sold overseas, which affects sales. Trust me I'm counting the days until I can get my Diesel Dually (Damn...It's a lot of days :eek!: ) But if in that time Toyota comes out with something close, I'll be considering it. Denying the quality and success of the foreign market is just that, denial.

Ranman
02-12-2007, 09:13 PM
Say what you want about Japanease vehicles, but they are destroying the domestic market. Why? Because they build better vehicles! No they don't. They did a few years ago, but not anymore.


Don't take it personally if you happen to work for one of the "old Three" It's not your fault. I take it personally because it's my livliehood.


Face the facts though, overall the foreign products are better,[No, they are not! People simply continue to perpetuate this misnomer and misperception. Check JD Power on the Malibu vs. the Camry.


hell even Kia's are taking a good share of business from the domestics. My buddy has a Kia (whatever SUV) He loves it, he's 6'2" 260lbs, and swears he's buying another one. He's had this one for a while now. They are reasonably priced, have an awesome warranty, and getting a good reputation. Fire your guns all you want, but if North American auto makers don't shape up, they are going to continue to lose ground. The qualty is there. How long will it take for the US makers to live down the past? It has been demonstrated time and time again that the US autos are as good if not better in initial quality than many competing Japanese models. Stop perpetuating this misperception!


The big 3 are so far behind in emissions they can't be sold overseas, which affects sales. Where are the facts that support this claim? Most of the US makers are profitable in foreign markets, they're just not profitable here.


Trust me I'm counting the days until I can get my Diesel Dually (Damn...It's a lot of days :eek!: ) Finally, a rational statement!


But if in that time Toyota comes out with something close, I'll be considering it. Denying the quality and success of the foreign market is just that, denial.I'm not denying the quality of the foreign market, you're denying the fact that the US autos have improved and build as good if not better than the foreigns.

realbold
02-13-2007, 12:43 AM
Well said, Ranman! I'll never own an import. These people think its just fashionable to buy an import while our auto companies struggle. Seems unpatriotic to me.

Carl C
02-13-2007, 10:12 AM
Say what you want about Japanease vehicles, but they are destroying the domestic market. Why? Because they build better vehicles! Don't take it personally if you happen to work for one of the "old Three" It's not your fault. Face the facts though, overall the foreign products are better, hell even Kia's are taking a good share of business from the domestics. My buddy has a Kia (whatever SUV) He loves it, he's 6'2" 260lbs, and swears he's buying another one. He's had this one for a while now. They are reasonably priced, have an awesome warranty, and getting a good reputation. Fire your guns all you want, but if North American auto makers don't shape up, they are going to continue to lose ground. The big 3 are so far behind in emissions they can't be sold overseas, which affects sales. Trust me I'm counting the days until I can get my Diesel Dually (Damn...It's a lot of days :eek!: ) But if in that time Toyota comes out with something close, I'll be considering it. Denying the quality and success of the foreign market is just that, denial. That really stings coming from one of our Canadian friends. Who's military will be there in an instant if ever needed; Japan's or the USA's??? BTW, Vermont makes better maple syrup than Canada.:mad:

RickSE
02-13-2007, 11:18 AM
The domestic stuff is good but they need to improve reliability. I just drove my boat from AZ to FL and took my 71 C-30 Chevy instead of my 01' 2500HD. Why?.... because I knew that the 71' would get me there and back, even if I have a problem on the road with the 71' I know I can fix it. The 01' hasn't really let me down on the road yet but it's had some pretty serious problems that would have cost me big bucks if they happened on the road.

As it turns out, at least so far since I haven't returned the 71' & boat home, I made the right decision. When I returned home last week I discovered that the 01' had a transfer case leak from a hole in the case, wasn't leaking before I left. A $7 clip in the transfer case fails and then the oil pump starts chewing its way through the magnesium case from the inside out. I have no doubt that this would have happened after I left with the boat; it would have emptied the all the ATF and locked up the transfer case on the side of the interstate. This is an extremely common problem with GM trucks, most transfer cases fail between 60K & 100K miles, after the warranty is up. GM has been using the same 261/263 New Venture Case since 1999 and they are still using it today in the new trucks with no mods to fix the problem. This is just Bull **** and shows how much GM cares about the longevity of their trucks. Gone are the days when "HD" really meant Heavy Duty. Don't mention Ford or Dodge because they have their problems too.

My 01' is on its 4th clutch assembly because GM under clutched the truck. It heats the clutch up then eventually kills everything, flywheel, slave cylinder, pressure plate and disc. My entire rear end had to be replaced due to a spun race in the housing, this on an 11.5" ring gear housing, WTF. I'm on my third set of parking brake cables because they stretch eventually making the parking brake useless. My trans has had the input shaft and main bearings replaced.

It's tough because I really love the truck but I need a real HD that's Heavy Duty and won't break parts with the relatively light loads, 5,000 lbs that I tow. The Domestics need to build a real truck without all the "foo foo" crap. I don't want a truck that drives like a car. I guess this is why I have two trucks, I always know I can rely on the 71' 1-ton when I need a real truck.

Mac
02-13-2007, 11:55 AM
Big 3? It is really just GM and Ford now seeing as Dodge is owned by a German company.
Toyota has poured billions into the US building factories, at least the Toyota is built here which more than can be said for alot of the GM and Ford products that are built in Mexico and Canada.
Toyota makes a good product, people recognize that and buy them. Toyota would not be number 2 right now if they made an inferior product. Pretty soon they will be number 1.

Ranman
02-13-2007, 12:26 PM
at least the Toyota is built here which more than can be said for alot of the GM and Ford products that are built in Mexico and Canada.

A poor excuse and a cop out. While some of the burden should be placed on the mismanagement of the unions, the remainder should sit squarely on the shoulders of all those consumers with their heads up their asses. If they had bought what we were making here, we'd still be making them here. Instead, they turned their backs on their own people and bought foreign product forcing the US makers to change in an effort to reduce labor costs further hollowing our economy. This is a simple equasion folks, we've done this to ourselves! Why are we so quick to dismiss our own talents and abandon our own citizens, products and economy to support companies that don't have our best interests in mind???


Toyota makes a good product, people recognize that and buy them. Toyota would not be number 2 right now if they made an inferior product. Pretty soon they will be number 1. I agree, however, since you have so little interest in supporting your own, when will you be relocating out of the country? Japan has a pretty high standard of living. :rolleyes:

Mac
02-13-2007, 03:24 PM
A poor excuse and a cop out. While some of the burden should be placed on the mismanagement of the unions, the remainder should sit squarely on the shoulders of all those consumers with their heads up their asses. If they had bought what we were making here, we'd still be making them here. Instead, they turned their backs on their own people and bought foreign product forcing the US makers to change in an effort to reduce labor costs further hollowing our economy. This is a simple equasion folks, we've done this to ourselves! Why are we so quick to dismiss our own talents and abandon our own citizens, products and economy to support companies that don't have our best interests in mind???
I agree, however, since you have so little interest in supporting your own, when will you be relocating out of the country? Japan has a pretty high standard of living. :rolleyes:

The US automakers did this to themselves, the fault is not with the consumer, if the products were equal there would be no issue.
By the way I have 3 "American" vehicles.
Relocating? give me a break, I am a veteran, I do not plan on leaving anytime soon.
Tell me what kind of television do you have?

BUIZILLA
02-13-2007, 03:41 PM
apparently this topic is as hot as religion or politics.....

and i'm not going to argue.....

my Tundra is made in the USA, on USA soil, by USA assembly line workers, in plants built by USA workers, using electricity and water supplied by USA municipalities, whom live in USA built homes, and pay income and property taxes to the US government, and those new Tundra vehicles are delivered by US registered trucks and USA or private owned railways, to USA dealers, and sold by US citizens to other US citizens, who buy gas at USA registered stations, and pay tolls on US roads, so that I can deliver USA serviced products to my local USA customers....

My two apple pie Harley's have more Made in China parts than my Tundra has...

I fail to see a foreign slant here...

ChromeGorilla
02-13-2007, 03:46 PM
apparently this topic is as hot as religion or politics.....
and i'm not going to argue.....
my Tundra is made in the USA, on USA soil, by USA assembly line workers, in plants built by USA workers, using electricity and water supplied by USA municipalities, whom live in USA built homes, and pay income and property taxes to the US government, and those new Tundra vehicles are delivered by US registered trucks and USA or private owned railways, to USA dealers, and sold by US citizens to other US citizens, who buy gas at USA registered stations, and pay tolls on US roads, so that I can deliver USA serviced products to my local USA customers....
My two apple pie Harley's have more Made in China parts than my Tundra has...
I fail to see a foreign slant here...



Buizilla nailed it.

realbold
02-13-2007, 03:46 PM
Tell me what kind of television do you have?
We lost electronics a long time ago, chances are yous is made in Malaysia or wherever.........so whats next, our auto companies? GM is bigger and in better shape but it would be a very bad day for the USA when some foreign company takes over Ford. Seems most people dont care.

realbold
02-13-2007, 03:53 PM
I think if you jap owners were born and raised in Michigan you might see it a little different. Sure, they're built here but where does the profit go?

ChromeGorilla
02-13-2007, 03:58 PM
Well personally....

My truck is "American" built in Canada?

My car is "German" built in Mexico?

And my boat is "Italian" built in Florida???????:wink: :bonk:


Oh the hugh manatee!!!!!!!!!!!

Mac
02-13-2007, 04:08 PM
I think if you jap owners were born and raised in Michigan you might see it a little different. Sure, they're built here but where does the profit go?

I might....
Where does the profit go? mostly to the stock holders and the exectives with insane retirement packages, seeing as the stock is pubically traded there is probably quite a bit owned by foreign interest, should they not be allowed to own stock in US companies?
The average autoworker would be just as well off working for GM as Toyota.

gcarter
02-13-2007, 04:11 PM
Sure, they're built here but where does the profit go?
The stock holders.........all over the world!!!!!

rustnrot
02-13-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by realbold
I think if you jap owners were born and raised in Michigan you might see it a little different.

Like I said many posts ago, I was raised in Michigan in the Detroit area--I get 5 more points, right? (alas, I was born in Ohio, a "foreign" country--Oops, subtract 2).

The legacy US car companies have had well over 30 years since foreign competition started to become fierce. Now, Quality may in fact be equal across the board. But for profitability, no legacy US car company is beating Toyota right now. I do not even own a Toyota (well...unless you count that Toyota engine I am putting in a Chris Craft...OH THE HUMANITY!!)

BTW, Didn't this start out as a simple "can Toyota win over the Nascar types"?

Carl C
02-13-2007, 04:33 PM
I wonder when we'll all be driving Jap boats. They've already got their foot in the door with outboard motors, small jet boats and PWCs.:eek!: Yes, this is a touchy topic for Michigan folks but I really believe that American cars and trucks are better. If you trade yours in every couple of years then it doesn't make much difference but if you want a vehicle that will last then buy American. Here's my current fleet, all nice cars, all paid for! "82 Mustang GT, '95 Mustang GT and '95 F-150. :)

Mac
02-13-2007, 05:20 PM
So Toyota is pumping $300,000,000 into the US economy and people are complaining??? :bonk:

realbold
02-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Sweet '82 stang Carl, still got my '88 Mark VII 302 HO (cant find pics) and '93 E 150.

Carl C
02-13-2007, 05:43 PM
Sweet '82 stang Carl, still got my '88 Mark VII 302 HO (cant find pics) and '93 E 150. Thanks, I've owned it since 1985. It'll get a historic vehicle plate next year. :convertib

Ranman
02-13-2007, 07:14 PM
Tell me what kind of television do you have?

I'd buy an American one if I could. You're comparing apples and oranges though. Even if all the TV's were made here, they would not have te same economic impact on all of us as the auto industry has.

Number one bigest purchase = a house
Number two biggest purchase = car

TV's are way down the list...



PS: I've never said the US manufacturers are not somwhat at fault, but we as consumers and citizens can make a difference too. Two wrongs don't make a right... The quality argument is so cliche and worn out. Just an excuse and cop out.

Ranman
02-13-2007, 07:23 PM
apparently this topic is as hot as religion or politics.....
and i'm not going to argue.....
my Tundra is made in the USA, on USA soil, by USA assembly line workers, in plants built by USA workers, using electricity and water supplied by USA municipalities, whom live in USA built homes, and pay income and property taxes to the US government, and those new Tundra vehicles are delivered by US registered trucks and USA or private owned railways, to USA dealers, and sold by US citizens to other US citizens, who buy gas at USA registered stations, and pay tolls on US roads, so that I can deliver USA serviced products to my local USA customers....
My two apple pie Harley's have more Made in China parts than my Tundra has...
I fail to see a foreign slant here...

I do get a bit passionate on this one.

You got room down there in Florida for the tens of thousands of workers here in Michigan that are out of jobs? I hope they all head your way for the good weather and to compete for your job. Maybe they'll stay unemployed and drain your tax resources. Maybe Toyota will pick them up and let them assemble their American <laugh> trucks in Texas, oh wait, they can't sell their houses cause they aren't worth chit here anymore.

I would bet lunch that you would have a different perspective and outlook sitting where I am.

BUIZILLA
02-13-2007, 07:52 PM
You got room down there in Florida for the tens of thousands of workers here in Michigan that are out of jobs? I hope they all head your way for the good weather and to compete for your job. Maybe they'll stay unemployed and drain your tax resources. I would bet lunch that you would have a different perspective and outlook sitting where I am.tell ya what dude, let's trade perspective's.... send ALL your english speaking gringo workers down here, and i'll trade ya for about 2.5 million cubans, haitian's, dominican's, nicaraguan's, panamanian's, jamaican's, bahamian's, mexican's, columbian's, venezuelan's, brazilian's, argentinian's, asian's, honduran's who would KILL to make $27 an hour like your $$$ bitching neighbor's do, .... yada yada.... :yes:

deal or no deal ???

btw, my one and only Ford Ranger drivetrain fell apart at 91,000 miles and I had to tow it in to trade it in, my second ex-Mitsubishi now has over 300,000 miles and the valve cover has never been off, the first Mitsu went over 200,000 so, come see for yourself... I have had 2 Mitsu's, 2 Mazda's and 2 Tundra's and none were ever back to the dealer even once in over 700,000 total miles between them. That's a fact. My Ranger fell apart, my 2 Dakota's milked me to death, and you want to know why I buy what's RELIABLE AND TROUBLEFREE AND GET'S THE JOB DONE.

deal or no deal?? :lookaroun

rustnrot
02-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Why so many victims here? I could have stayed and worked in SE Michigan like the rest of my family but I took the initiative and LEFT in 1975, and have never looked back. We can make choices in this country. Where to work, where to live, and yes, even what to buy.

This is a 30 year-old train wreck for the US auto industry. Plenty of time to react, (or not).

yeller
02-13-2007, 09:03 PM
BTW, Vermont makes better maple syrup than Canada.:mad:OK that's it....TAKE IT BACK CARL!! If you don't, I'll have to leave my igloo, hitch up the dog sled team and come down there beat your a$$ with my whaling spear. :rlol: :rlol: :biggrin.: :biggrin.:

DonCig
02-13-2007, 09:20 PM
OK that's it....TAKE IT BACK CARL!! If you don't, I'll have to leave my igloo, hitch up the dog sled team and come down there beat your a$$ with my whaling spear. :rlol: :rlol: :biggrin.: :biggrin.:
Now that there is Funny, I don't care who you are!

gcarter
02-13-2007, 09:38 PM
When I was a kid in elementary school (early '50's) there was an urban legend that all the little cheap tin toy airplanes and cars marked "made in USA" were really from a town somewhere in Japan named "Usa". In those days, that's all Japan could produce...period. They couldn't even feed their own people. We even ran their government for 10 years...1945-1955.
The Japanese took the best we had to offer in methods, management, and improved on it.
The main lesson to learn from this is they never stopped improving.
We on the other hand at the end of WW-II were kings by default. We stopped improving. The status quo had a good run for about 40 years.
In the mid '80's (my first foray in working in MI in the auto industry) I was a job shopper for Hydramatic. My group worked on improving build quality of the 700R-4. At the time I started there was a 60% catastrophic failure rate by about 60,000 miles. In 18 months, it was down to about 5%. But why did that tranny go into production with those problems????? The Japs wouldn't have done it.
A few observations I made while working there;
People working in MI seemed to be very insular, they seemed to have little interest in the rest of the world. Ordinarily that wouldn't matter, but the rest of the world is very important to MI.
There seemed to be a perceived right to a lifelong job and retirement at one of the "3". Cradle to grave it seemed....and little asked in return.
I was there when the first of the major downsizing was going on. I couldn't believe the looks of incredulity on the faces of "lifers" in management when they were informed of their buyout.
Oh, it would have been much better for everyone if the "3" were run like a defense contractor or an aircraft company. You're always ready to sprint for the door to look for the next big contract. But in the meantime, you did the very best job you could because you lasted longer that way.

Sorry, I don't have a lot of sympathy.......things could have been much better if there had been a will to do so. It didn't exist in the unions or management.

SideshowRob
02-13-2007, 11:06 PM
#1.) Carl C. Where I'm from and where our military happens to go has nothing to do with this discussion. I find it a pointless statement considering there are some of your fellow countrymen here with differing opinions than your own.
#2.) I drive a 94 GMC 3/4 Ton 4X4. I LOVE IT! I've had it for over 7 years, and it has been awesome to me. Nicole has a 2000 Impala, bought new. Aside from some small issues it has also been great. I did however buy a 1984 Toyota 4x4 when I was 18. That truck was also awesome. I loved it, parts were expensive, but I rarely needed them.
I love trucks that's my thing. GM, FORD, DODGE. As of late, I've been leaning towards Dodge. Cummins is a fantastic motor, the new one should be even better. GM has lost me a little with quality issues, the 07's are looking good, but I've heard the Duramax isn't all it's cracked up to be. Ford is making a great truck these days. Most of my employers fleet is ford. 1 F150, 1 F350, 2 F550 Bucket trucks. I drive the 350. It's a 4x4 crew cab long box with a 5.4. It's great on gas, has an awesome turning radius for the bus that is, and it looks good. As a former anti Ford guy, I'm impressed.
Back to this where it's made issue. I'm curious here how many parts on "domestic vehicles" are actually domestic? I used to have a Polaris snowmobile (for going to visit Yeller in his Igloo) It had a plaque on it that said built in the USA. I always laughed when I fired up my FUJI built engine and spun my Yokohama track.
Does a Canadian built GM count as a foreign vehicle?
How is an American autoworker treated if they work for Honda or Toyota?
Will you still love your Harley's EVO engine even though Yamaha engineers assisted in its development?
Is it still Vermont Maple Syrop if the seedlings were sent from Canada?
Is it possible to live your life with no Jap Chit?
I live in a town which survives because of Mining. Some people here (Sudbury) will say that is not true, but it is, yes we have diversified and grown over the years, but when it comes down to it. If INCO (now CVRDINCO, the world's largest ore producing organization in the world... from Brazil) or Falconbridge. Now Xstrada ( a Swiss Company).... anyways if they leave, this city of 170 000 ish is done. Right now nickel is what $27/lb. THAT's Crazy!! Normal 1990's- early 2000 pricing was in the $6-$9 range. You know who's buying it all. Japan and India. You know why concrete is so expensive, cement is going overseas too.
It's great to be patriotic and supportive, absolutely, but I think that means adapting to a changing world. If we want to keep living the lifestyle we have come to know, I think we need to broaden our perception of the world. If the big 3 or 2 are slipping, tell them. New GM cars are boring as hell, if I was looking for one, I'd tell them..... if they call me I'll tell them :crossfing As you can see I have a lot to say :bonk:
I apologize for my Digit-al Diarhea :bonk:

Ranman
02-13-2007, 11:48 PM
There are a lot of good and valid points throughout this discussion. I'm continually impressed that we can have rather passionate and heated discussions on this board and still remain sane and civil. I try not to stir the pot too much, but occasionally I like to push the envelope (for me at least).
This topic can be argued from many different perspectives and IMO there is no single right answer. The situation is what it is regardless of how we got here and we all have to contend with it (especially here in MI).
I live in Detroit and have no intention of leaving soon. MI is going through a very tough adjustment right now and there's no question that we are displacing many people to other states. Hopefully, when it's all said and done with, there will be a nice living to be made in an adjusted environment. This is/was the Motor City. It has been for my entire life and now it seems that it is disappearing fast. Consider for a moment how it would feel if somehow the sunshine was lost from the sunshine state or the blues were lost from New Orleans or the BBQ was lost from Kansas City. What has defined my community for so long is vanishing and we are struggling and confused....
For me personally, a large portion of our income (50+%) comes directly from Ford. The rest is supported heavily by JCI, Delphi, Dura Automotive, Metaldyne and other tier one auto suppliers. None of these companies do any significant business with Toyota, Nissan or Honda that I know of. I am hoping that Ford will also adapt to the new environment and emerge a well managed, (albeit smaller), and profitable auto manufacturer. If not (as the analysts are predicting), wife and I will be forced to bank on our own education and skillsets to find other gainful employment.
So, to save a long continuous argument I simply encourage everyone to support your local economies and their fellow Americans in any way you deem appropriate. For me, that means supporting my local manufacturers, suppliers and the like by buying what I consider American. For me, to do otherwise, would be biting the hand that feeds me.
PS - The creepy boat man who was scaring the kids says in his best superhero voice "Buy Donzi's at will! They are hand crafted in the USA!!!"

DonCig
02-14-2007, 12:03 AM
There are a lot of good and valid points throughout this discussion. I'm continually impressed that we can have rather passionate and heated discussions on this board and still remain sane and civil. I try not to stir the pot too much, but occasionally I like to push the envelope (for me at least).
This topic can be argued from many different perspectives and IMO there is no single right answer. The situation is what it is regardless of how we got here and we all have to contend with it (especially here in MI).
I live in Detroit and have no intention of leaving soon. MI is going through a very tough adjustment right now and there's no question that we are displacing many people to other states. Hopefully, when it's all said and done with, there will be a nice living to be made in an adjusted environment. This is/was the Motor City. It has been for my entire life and now it seems that it is disappearing fast. Consider for a moment how it would feel if somehow the sunshine was lost from the sunshine state or the blues were lost from New Orleans or the BBQ was lost from Kansas City. What has defined my community for so long is vanishing and we are struggling and confused....
For me personally, a large portion of our income (50+%) comes directly from Ford. The rest is supported heavily by JCI, Delphi, Dura Automotive, Metaldyne and other tier one auto suppliers. None of these companies do any significant business with Toyota, Nissan or Honda that I know of. I am hoping that Ford will also adapt to the new environment and emerge a well managed, (albeit smaller), and profitable auto manufacturer. If not (as the analysts are predicting), wife and I will be forced to bank on our own education and skillsets to find other gainful employment.
So, to save a long continuous argument I simply encourage everyone to support your local economies and their fellow Americans in any way you deem appropriate. For me, that means supporting my local manufacturers, suppliers and the like by buying what I consider American. For me, to do otherwise, would be biting the hand that feeds me.
PS - The creepy boat man who was scaring the kids says in his best superhero voice "Buy Donzi's at will! They are hand crafted in the USA!!!"

Randy, Nice CIG Shirt!

Don

DonCig
02-14-2007, 04:51 AM
I'm not getting into the who's product is better debate, its stupid. Different applications require different vehicles. I would kill Buiz's Tundra in six months, no doubt. Yet for him it's fine.
Manufacturing as we know it exists rarely in the American marketplace anymore. We are now a nation of assemblers. Starters from Japan, radiators from China, alternators from India, and on and on. Pure and simple, the American lifestyle has priced ourselves out of business. The rest of the world is laughing at us as our economy heads down the terlet while we finance their growth... It's a sad commentary on where our country has gone.
I am writing this post from my office in Hangzhou China. I have attached a few photos to illustrate my whereabouts. Today I was informed that the Chinese government has mandated a minimum wage increase. Effective immediately the minimum wage has gone from 6 yaun to 8 yaun per hour. The effective exchange rate is $1 US greenback equals 7.75 yaun. For those of you that need some help; that is approx. $1.03 US per hour. As an employeer we have to pay 40% above this number to the government to pay for benefits. So now we are at a min. wage rate of around $1.50 US per hour fully loaded. We interviewed 7 prospective employees today for accounting and production managers position. All of the applicants were well dressed, polite, educated and friendly. Not one person showed up in torn blue jeans with a rap shirt. Before you bash the Chinese worker, please understand that they have competition in the world marketplace. The 5 largest furniture manufacturers in China have plans to move to Vietnam over the next three years time. China is becoming too expensive on certain products!
I do not have the answer to the loss of manufacturing jobs in the USA. But I do know that we are not the leaders that we once thought we were.
I suggest that you coach your children to do well in school, learn to invest in your businesses and work both smart and hard.

Don

smokediver
02-14-2007, 06:17 AM
To place blame on the unions and consumers is certainly the "company mans'" point of view ... While the unions certainly over-valued themselves , the contracts were ultimately agreed upon by the companies . To say "Buy American" I say fine ... show me one car that is made and assembled here in the USA with all american components. No such thing !!!! While the big 3 cries for us to buy american , look at where the majority are assembled and with components from where ? Fact of the matter is that in this global economy , there can't be. Ford , GM , all have plants in other countries where cars or assemblies are put together and shipped here ... Until the hypocracy ends I will not support the "American" car company ... My dad put 31 years in GM starting at GMI ... It put a roof over my head but that was back in the day where "Made in America" meant something ... I say the big 3 should support the American worker and keep it all here ... We are the best and if we made all the components , and assembled them here , we would be kicking ASS ... But the bottom corporate dollar is far more important in fords and gm's wally world ... I say the big 3 should support America .. not the other way around !!!!!

BUIZILLA
02-14-2007, 07:31 AM
Different applications require different vehicles. I would kill Buiz's Tundra in six months, no doubt. yeah your right, I forgot, it takes a fleet of F350's to haul a 6# chainsaw... :cool!:

Ranman
02-14-2007, 08:45 AM
More good news for Detroit. :(

Chrysler announces 13,000 job cuts

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/ap_on_bi_ge/chrysler_restructuring

Carl C
02-14-2007, 09:06 AM
OK that's it....TAKE IT BACK CARL!! If you don't, I'll have to leave my igloo, hitch up the dog sled team and come down there beat your a$$ with my whaling spear. :rlol: :rlol: :biggrin.: :biggrin.: Not to worry. See pics. Although if I could find American maple syrup I would buy it! SideshowRob, you're right, but this is a hot topic for us. I've lived in a border region all my life and I find Canadians to be nice and friendly people. I'm not going to argue this anymore. Drive whatever the hell you want to! :boat:

BUIZILLA
02-14-2007, 09:37 AM
Goodyear Tire & Rubber, Commercial Division, has recently informed International Harvester/Navistar, that they are moving ALL commercial tire factory's to China, and to expect some delay's in product delivery in the foreseeable future.

RickSE
02-14-2007, 10:12 AM
Hey at least our boats are "Made, Built & Assembled in America". :yes:

realbold
02-14-2007, 10:21 AM
More good news for Detroit. :(
Chrysler announces 13,000 job cuts
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/ap_on_bi_ge/chrysler_restructuring
And most of the 2,000 white collar jobs lost will come out of headquarters in Auburn Hills :(

Rootsy
02-14-2007, 12:36 PM
Not to worry. See pics. Although if I could find American maple syrup I would buy it! SideshowRob, you're right, but this is a hot topic for us. I've lived in a border region all my life and I find Canadians to be nice and friendly people. I'm not going to argue this anymore. Drive whatever the hell you want to! :boat:

just how much are you willin to spend there chief?... i have 2 or 3 pints right from the Irish Hills of Michigan sitting in the pantry... aged approximately 2 years now... made by Rootsy himself... very yummy... and to think of it.. i think i'll tap all of those sugar maples in my yard beginning of next month too... i don't wanna run out...

as for the big 3 vs toyota and honda, etc... i could go on for pages... pages and pages... i've been around that block once or twice.. make it a dozen times...

1. engineer it well... PERIOD...
2. hold your suppliers to the highest standards without trying to bankrupt them
3. QUALITY CONTROL, before, during and after assembly... right down to that last nut and bolt
4. get rid of the waste... from the fork truck driver making 6 figures a year right to the CEO with a 200 million dollar exit package after he runs a company into the ground...
5. pay someone what they are worth... the world needs ditch diggers too... get rid of the entitlement mentality of the unions, it's workers and the white collar crew... 40% of the cost to produce a product in the US is DIRECT LABOR COST
6. CUT MANPOWER... automation is king and the more you use it the less human error there is involved
7. TARRIFS on foreign imported product... level that playing field
8. WARRANTY... WARRANTY... WARRANTY...
9. Give the consumer what they want, not what you THINK they need...
10. i can go on...

BTW, did you know that many of your Honda cars are engineered right in Marysville, OH... by americans... face it... the Japanese companies are doing better because they work smarter, with less waste... their entire philosophy revolves around efficiency, reducing waste and continually improving... much like any world class athlete trying to improve on his or her game.... it's a mentality and a way of life... much different than "American" philosophies...

we as Americans have done it to ourselves... and our politicians have sold us out to greedy corporate America...

Tony
02-14-2007, 04:02 PM
7. TARRIFS on foreign imported product... level that playing field


It was recently announced that in 2006 the USA set another trade deficit record...for the sixth straight year!

(I've decided to edit the sentence that was here previously...apparently someone decided it was too political!)

:beer:

Carl C
02-14-2007, 04:24 PM
just how much are you willin to spend there chief?... i have 2 or 3 pints right from the Irish Hills of Michigan sitting in the pantry... aged approximately 2 years now... made by Rootsy himself... very yummy... and to think of it.. i think i'll tap all of those sugar maples in my yard beginning of next month too... i don't wanna run out...
Sounds good. I didn't know you could age it. The stuff I get at Costco has a use by date; it's really good though.

It was recently announced that in 2006 the USA set another trade deficit record...for the sixth straight year!

Maybe 'The Decider' could decide to do something about the trade deficit problem, since he seems oblivious to our massive budget deficit.

:beer: Why can't we manufacture things here anymore? Why is my Microsoft X-Box 360 made in China?

Rootsy
02-14-2007, 06:17 PM
Sounds good. I didn't know you could age it. The stuff I get at Costco has a use by date; it's really good though.
Why can't we manufacture things here anymore? Why is my Microsoft X-Box 360 made in China?

for a few reasons... lets see...

lack of the following...

EPA
OSHA
Workman's Compensation
Health Insurance Benefits
Pensions and retirement benefits
Medicare
LARGE salaries and taxes
Unions
Other various intrusive federal and state regulations

also...

lower raw material costs
lower utilites
lack of other insurance necessities

the savings of which more than make up for transportation costs and resulting tarrifs on imported goods.... and so on and so forth...

btw, i canned my maple goodness hot in sterilized mason jars... should stay indefinitely and i havn't experienced any negatives... 100% all natural puuuuuuuure... and oh so easy to do... 50 gallons of sugar maple sap = 1 gallon maple syrup...

boxy
02-14-2007, 06:40 PM
Sounds good. I didn't know you could age it. The stuff I get at Costco has a use by date; it's really good though.
Why can't we manufacture things here anymore? Why is my Microsoft X-Box 360 made in China?
Carl, if your Maple Syrup has a best before date, there is something else in it besides Maple Sap and heat.
Send me your address, I'll send you down some of the good stuff......
Just remember.......the first taste is always free..... :D :D

realbold
02-14-2007, 06:56 PM
BS.. YOU of all people know better than that statement.. Anytime you want to send you weeniemobile and driver over for a week , send him over.. I'll pay his salary and fuel for the week, you pay for the truck I kill...
:hyper: :hyper: :yes:

BUIZILLA
02-14-2007, 08:11 PM
easy on the trigger big boy...

your outa your league on this one... :yes: :tongue:

Rootsy
02-15-2007, 06:59 AM
MMMMMMMMM Michigan maple syrup.... lots of high sugar sap + lots of heat = Lots of steam + yummy syrup for your pancakes....

Carl C
02-15-2007, 09:14 AM
Carl, if your Maple Syrup has a best before date, there is something else in it besides Maple Sap and heat.
Send me your address, I'll send you down some of the good stuff......
Just remember.......the first taste is always free..... :D :D Boxy, mine says 100% maple syrup & the ingredients on the back says "pure maple syrup". This particular bottle says "best before 12-4-07" & "refrigerate after opening" so it must be bottled and sealed while hot. If you've got the good stuff I'd love to try it and it needn't be free. $ is not a problem. I'm one of the few Michiganites who's business is doing better then ever. Most of this stuff is hugely overpriced at a typical grocery store. Tiny little bottles for $8 or so. Costco sells a half gallon (1.89 L to you) for about $12. That's kind of you to offer, thanks, I'll send a PM. Jamie, yours looks awesome too. Now if I only had some maple trees handy......BTW, I only use maple syrup. No maple flavored sugar water for me! ....................................Now back to our regularly scheduled debate about who makes the best cars and trucks................

realbold
02-15-2007, 09:52 AM
easy on the trigger big boy...
your outa your league on this one... :yes: :tongue:
league shmeague...I know a REAL truck when I see one.....

Carl C
02-15-2007, 10:49 AM
for a few reasons... lets see...

lack of the following...

EPA
OSHA
Workman's Compensation
Health Insurance Benefits
Pensions and retirement benefits
Medicare
LARGE salaries and taxes
Unions
Other various intrusive federal and state regulations

Yeah, I think you nailed it except for the actual salary. There are plenty of unskilled workers who consider $10 per hour to be good pay and they could be taught to do these jobs. All the other things you listed are killing it. Bill Gates sure isn't hurting for money and I'd like to think that he'd keep these jobs here if not for the fact that there is a HUGE cost difference.

Woodsy
02-15-2007, 12:02 PM
What a great discussion!

We did it to ourselves, plain and simple. Its all about perception. GM, Ford, and Dodge have NEVER recovered from the perception that Japanese quality is better than USA quality, more specifically Toyota and Honda. You couple a general perception that Toyota & Honda build a higher quality product, with bad management and short sighted unions this is what you get.... failing American auto industry.

Why the shortsighted management for short term investor gains? You might have had 2-3 good quarters, but now the deferred payments are due

GM and Ford both made huge union concessions to the labor unions in the 90's.... now the (medical) bills are due! OUCH!

Why did Ford kill the Taurus? It was arguably one of the best selling cars in America?? Because the 500 was sooo much better?? Now they are going to rename the 500... make sure you shut the barn door AFTER the horse leaves!

I wonder how the Harley Davidson strike is progressing. They might want to learn something from Ford & GM.... but I doubt it!

There is no such thing as a domestic or foreign auto company. They are all publicly traded entities. The probelm with a "Global" economy is that you (the worker) are only worth (per Hr) what the company has to pay the cheapest worker in a foreign company. Gotta love this Global Economy.

Woodsy

Sofa King
02-15-2007, 12:32 PM
If one can one should drive the make of their country. I have a z-71 with 126k and no problems except for my seat which I attrbute to my weight problem.

Sofa King Phat

Ranman
02-15-2007, 12:45 PM
Why did Ford kill the Taurus? It was arguably one of the best selling cars in America?? Because the 500 was sooo much better?? Now they are going to rename the 500...

...and guess what they're renaming it? You got it...Taurus.

realbold
02-15-2007, 01:03 PM
...and guess what they're renaming it? You got it...Taurus.
IMO it didn't sell because it's ugly, name had nothing to do with it. Change the way it looks, then call it a Taurus.

Sofa King
02-15-2007, 04:04 PM
The Honda Accord is and was a better seller in the private market (me and you) but being the whore that Ford is they whored out the Clitaurus to fleet accts. like the f-150 to get the title of #1 seller.

Sofa King Smart :wink:

sweet 16 1966
02-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Love my 87 Chev P-up. My Nissan is hard to beat also.
George, 700 R-4? Had 2 rebuilds -each time it was taken back out two more times. Still not perfect.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Now what!

Formula Jr
02-15-2007, 11:42 PM
It will all work out soon. Capital always won over labor. It did in the US civil War. And it will here, if capital ever comes back here. It just means a human robot can be replaced by a machanical One. We are going back to an old era. In a very strange way.

It means for the vast major of people, you will no longer be employed.
We didn't bother to figure that out. We just did it, hope you had stocks to keep afloat.

You are on your own with out a culture to protect you. We are gutting everything while protecting "national interests." And also showing other cultures how to undermine us with capital and leads into our markets.

Its just one step more, till 'Mart owns the plants we buy things from. And we will think its all good that they make Five Dollars an hour. What a wonderful wage for this second world!
Its all being set up that way, not just re-branding, or hardball on wholesale, its owning the plants. The Competitors are all doing the same thing.

We have not figured this out. But we signed off on it.

chappy
02-16-2007, 07:21 AM
Yeah, I think some farmers, construction workers, & city slicker wannabes may go for the full size Tundra.
Rich

Carl C
02-16-2007, 07:44 AM
BTW, if you think this is just a Michigan problem think again. People flocked here decades ago from the south for cushy auto jobs. Now people are leaving the state in search of jobs and many will be headed for warmer climates. It's going to take a few years to even things out but Michigan will survive. We have the Great Lakes! This is a national problem and if America loses the auto industry it will affect the entire country. It will also set the stage for Japan to move on to the next virgin industry. Exporting high quality full size boats. Does anyone doubt that they could build nice boats cheaper?:eek!:

Rootsy
02-16-2007, 09:04 AM
Hershey announced that they're moving 13000 jobs to mexico and china... guess the USDA was too much of a hassle for them

Cuda
02-16-2007, 10:12 AM
I'm on my sixth new American made truck. The first was a Chebby, which I used the Lemon Law on, the last five have been Fords, and I'm sure my next one will be a Ford also. When I bought my 99 F150, I sat in the Toyota Tundra. It felt and looked like a cheap F 150.

Carl C
02-16-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm on my sixth new American made truck. The first was a Chebby, which I used the Lemon Law on, the last five have been Fords, and I'm sure my next one will be a Ford also. When I bought my 99 F150, I sat in the Toyota Tundra. It felt and looked like a cheap F 150. You da man! Ford makes the best trucks. Nothing against GM. The Cadillac STS and Chevy Corvette are both world class vehicles.:convertib

realbold
02-16-2007, 10:39 AM
I'm a van man, always had Fords, had a 76 E150, daily driver for work till 2001, then donated to charity. Thats 25 yrs, no rebuilds.

Team Jefe
02-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Does my truck from a German owned company assembled in Mexico count as American?

It looks American - 3500 1 ton Dually
It feels American - largest cab of any stock truck
It runs American - This thing will pull anything you tie to it

Its even got American chrome and diamond step plate all over it, its the kind of truck foriegners think of as AMERICAN - Big, beefy, 4-wheel drive with a huge engine. It says DODGE on it, but if it said Toyota it would still be just as American to me.

In the 25+ cars I have owned in my life, only 2 have not been a "big 3" brand. If you count the 30+ others from my immediate family its still just those 2. SO the Reid's have supported the local boys big time.

Still, I have been in industry long enough to know that we are in a global economy, and "Ameican" Auto makers simply don't exist anymore....Why, How, who's Fault? are all pretty irrelevant at this point. All auto makers have pieces of others from foriegn lands. Daimler-Chrysler is obvious, but don't forget Ford with Mazda, Jaguar, Land Rover, etc. and GM, with Vauxall, Izuzu and several others.

They all have their fingers in the globalness (if that is a word) of the industry. And we have to get used to it, becasue its only going to become more prevelant.

The issue for me is like Buzzy said, its about what is best for the American autoworker. If the jobs are with Toyota in NC instead of GM in Detroit...so be it, pack the family and enjoy the temperate climate.

That may sound harsh (and Randy I know you love MI), but its happened to other industries. For instance the Oil Patch here in Texas. The Mid '80s to Mid '90s were hard time around here. Many had to leave the patch after decades, even generations of working for these companies. All teh jobs went to Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Asia...and we went too, spending two years in Borneo so dad could keep his job. Then when we got back it got worse, dad had to work in Iraq for a while being gone 1 month and home for two weeks. He missed lots of ball games and dance recitals, but that is what had to be done to make ends meet.

I even had to face it when I got out of college, I got a low paying job, and got laid-off three time before my fifth year of work, but we dealt with it and made ends meet. My only real option was Iraq, right after Desert Storm and that was worse than the low pay struggle. Evetually, things got better, but lots of folks had moved on to other things and other places.

I know we are not the only ones who have faced such things in our local industry, and I feel for the Detroit workers facing those things now, but my sympathy is tempered by knowing that my family went through the hard times becasue, we Americans wanted to have cheap gas for our cars, and oil for our homes....and that oil came from overseas. In our "I want it all and I want it now" culture adjustments will have to be made.

Now the big issue is cars...the big 3, including the unions will have to adjust or they will go the way of Texaco, Amoco and Phillips and be sucked into other more nimble organizations.

I have decided that my truck is American because I bought a Cummins Turbo Diesel....They threw the Dodge in for free:wink:

BUIZILLA
02-16-2007, 10:45 AM
When I bought my 99 F150, I sat in the Toyota Tundra. It felt and looked like a cheap F 150.maybe the standard Ford XL felt like a standard Toyota... that was 8 years ago, my my how's times have changed..... FWIW the largest Goodyear and Michelin truck tire centers down here have gone to several Tundra 1/2 ton road service trucks, from F250's... I saw them both today myself.. onboard compressors, toolbox's, 20 ton jacks, racks, the whole gamut... also Miami Dade County GSA just took delivery of a bunch of Toyota Prius car's, for fleet service, one was at my house yesterday....

Sofa King
02-16-2007, 03:23 PM
Fords are for the cheap peeps, no one wants to up a Ford lol, now GM's are
the high rollers. Best thing about a Dodge is the cummins, you can burn the rest of it as the auto tranny sucks as well as the front end.
Iffin I had to buy a new pickemup truck right now hands down the Duramax and Allison 6 speed :wink:

Sofa King Smart

RickSE
02-16-2007, 04:38 PM
Well GM just stepped up to the plate irt my earlier gripe. They have agreed to repair the transfer case on my truck under warranty (truck is 30K miles and 3-years out of warranty) if I pay a $300 deductible on the repair. The repair was estimated to be $1,200 and I'll basically be paying for the wholesale cost of the parts. It sounds fair to me, at least they were willing to listen and make an offer. I told them to go ahead since it would have cost me $450-$500 in parts to fix it myself and I'll have a 1-year warranty on the repair if they do it.

Most of my faith in GM has been restored but it's still a crappy transfer case design, even though New Process (partially owned by Dodge) designed it not GM.

BUIZILLA
02-16-2007, 04:41 PM
now if we could just figure out who designed the clunk in the steering column... :wink:

Cuda
02-16-2007, 04:54 PM
Nothing against Michigan auto workers, but I'm pretty sure after the buffalo hunters killed all the buffalo, they had to find new jobs.

SideshowRob
02-16-2007, 09:00 PM
They did..... They got into real estate. :eek!:

yeller
02-16-2007, 09:14 PM
There was an 8 page advertisment on the Tundra in the paper today. I don't think I've ever seen that big of an ad for one vehicle before. Looks like Toyota is going balls out on this one.
BTW: Ad says the 07 (all new Tundra) was designed, engineered and built in the US. They have 2 plants in the US just to build the Tundra. Doesn't that make it an American built vehicle. :confused:

Carl C
02-16-2007, 09:29 PM
There was an 8 page advertisment on the Tundra in the paper today. I don't think I've ever seen that big of an ad for one vehicle before. Looks like Toyota is going balls out on this one.
BTW: Ad says the 07 (all new Tundra) was designed, engineered and built in the US. They have 2 plants in the US just to build the Tundra. Doesn't that make it an American built vehicle. :confused: I think a big difference is that we don't have factories in Asian countries to build and sell vehicles there. Their companies get bigger while American based companies get smaller.

yeller
02-16-2007, 09:45 PM
Yeh, but the US have factories in other parts of the world. No auto has been 100% US made in ages. All the auto companies are global. Parts from here, there and everywhere. If Toyota is going to build a plant in the US, then to me, that's just as much US made as any other. I realize it hurts the worker of the big 3 and I truly feel for them, but buying a Tundra is still keeping $ in the US. You could buy an auto from the 3 but it was made in Canada and you'd be supporting your country less than if you bought the Tundra.

BUIZILLA
02-17-2007, 06:52 AM
GM has a Buick factory in China, I believe Buick is now the #1 selling car over there as well

Tony
02-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Well GM just stepped up to the plate irt my earlier gripe. They have agreed to repair the transfer case on my truck under warranty (truck is 30K miles and 3-years out of warranty) if I pay a $300 deductible on the repair. The repair was estimated to be $1,200 and I'll basically be paying for the wholesale cost of the parts. It sounds fair to me, at least they were willing to listen and make an offer. I told them to go ahead since it would have cost me $450-$500 in parts to fix it myself and I'll have a 1-year warranty on the repair if they do it.
Most of my faith in GM has been restored but it's still a crappy transfer case design, even though New Process (partially owned by Dodge) designed it not GM.

Same thing happened to me and my 2500HD at 100k miles. I bent their ear big time and got nowhere. Cost me $1,200 to replace all the melted componentry and the transfer case. I can't believe that this is not a recall issue, and I can't believe they have not resolved the crappy design of the New Venture (New Process) transfer case. Other than that (and the stretched parking brake cable!) I love the truck.


:beer:

SideshowRob
02-17-2007, 10:06 AM
Alright, so after 6 pages of this debate we have learned this; Hondas and Toyotas are built in Japan, USA, and Canada. Chrysler is owned by a German company (terrible reputation for automotive technology) And GMs are built in Mexico, Canada, the US and apparently China.
So apparently no matter who we support we are supporting ourselves and others.
I am all for supporting your own/ our own country, but think about it our global economy has blurred the line of domestic vs. foreign. After years of growing demands and higher wages and our own attitude towards lower paying jobs combined with foreign technology and cheap labour/labor. We have helped to pave the way to this.
If your neighbour builds Toyotas and you build GMs, but you both like beer and boats, just have a beer and talk about boats, and be happy we have jobs to complain about.

realbold
02-17-2007, 10:35 AM
Rumor has it Daimler might be selling off Chrysler. Some say GM might be interested, others say no way, GM can't afford it, however there are talks of a Chrysler/GM joint venture on producing yet another large SUV. Stay tuned..........

Rootsy
02-17-2007, 06:08 PM
Just to stir it up a bit ;)

I keep supporting "Made in the USA" whenever i can... on some things i CANNOT and WILL NOT compromise... todays aquisition ;)

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/jaroot13/IMG_6142.jpg

Not quite as much of a thumb-buster as the Scandium-Titanium J frames but i wouldn't want to shoot it all day with full boat 357 loads...

Actually come to think of it, every single one of my firearms are "Made in the USA"... from all American components... Just think though... Winchester is now importing firearms from over seas, as is Remington with the Spartan and Charles Daly firearms... as is weatherby... Taurus' are made in Brazil... FN is Austrian, CZ is Checz... and so on and so forth... etc... etc... It's definitely a Glabal market....

Sofa King
02-17-2007, 11:44 PM
Lady Smith:eek!:

Trueser
02-18-2007, 12:16 AM
now if we could just figure out who designed the clunk in the steering column

They do have a low cost fix for that!!!!!

Rootsy
02-18-2007, 06:38 AM
Lady Smith:eek!:

Guess I am secure in my manhood :yes:

DONZI
02-18-2007, 08:46 AM
200 Million is really a bargain for the exposure, compared to the crazy figures these Athletes are getting. 103 MILLION to this latest Pitcher for the Red Sox alone.:eek!: Good ole sport no more.I don't know how it's going to affect the sport in the long run. Look what happened to the Indy cars.
Hell'uva way to debut in NASCAR though with these headlines.

NASCAR Slams Waltrip's Team for Cheating
Waltrip's Crew Chief, Director Suspended Indefinitely



Just to stir it up a bit ;)

I keep supporting "Made in the USA" whenever i can... on some things i CANNOT and WILL NOT compromise... todays aquisition ;)


Thank you for supporting my States economy Rootsy !:)
Smith&Wesson Springfield Ma. is quite a place. All underground.
I try my best to be Patriotic with all my purchase's also especially Vehicles.:convertib
Enough with Outsourcing :outtahere

mphatc
02-18-2007, 05:55 PM
Some of the best reading today . .

A good customer of mine is a professional driver working for one of the companies doing the new Tundra intro and demos / comparisons. Right now they're out west . . Texas , Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado . .

He's towing a 10K lb load behind a 1/2 ton Tundra . . and they're doing dyno comparisons at their demos with all the big trucks, not just the big three . .

I asked him how it handles hills with the big load . and he finds that it can pull anything , even at speed. I questioned this, and wanted to know what it does at 50-60 where the F150 is weak . .The Tundra has the torque
Here's his sumation

Toyota did their home work . .
The Dodge is weak, can't hold it's own on the dyno, and has a weak driveline
The Nissan full size uses the small diff, and can't take heavy dyno time
The F150 . comes close, but can't compete against the 401 ft lbs of torque from the Toyota . .
The Chevy . . runs strong, pulls strong, but can't stop . . he admitted they had to stop using the Chevy as his company does $10 Million a year for GM and they couldn't continue to embarass them . . :)

The Toyota will do as many 70 mph to zero stops as hard as you want . . with ZERO brake fade . . every stop is with 1-2 feet of the first, the best any of the others . . brake fade and stops that increase 20-40 ft after 10 consequtive stops. Anyone towing a haevy load regularly can appreciate this!


I'm on my 3rd full size Ford, this one is a 2000 F150 7700 4 x4 . . I can't sit in a Chevy with my long legs, and visibility is terrible. . The Dodge 1/2 tons are weak, PLUS they are UGLY. . And I hate my Ford.
After 80 K miles I have replaced the brake rotors 3 times, used 6 sets of pads, 2 lower control arms, 2 tie rod ends, rebuilt the 4 wheel drive engagement solenoid, there are a ton of small items broken, and I need to replace the rear tailgate, it's rusted out, and the bottom seams on the doors are blistering . . WTF . .

American industry is in trouble. There is nothing we build here, engineered here, and managed by Americans that is going to compete against Toyota's Tundra in it's class! The key to their success is the Japanese management. This is the same thing with any of the successful foreign manufacturers that has come into the USA recently . . they bring their own leadership . . .

Diamler Benz screwed the workers of Chrysler by empting the bank account and making off with all of the liquid assets . . and not developing new products . .:frown:

American managers are lazy, the corporations have let themselves be run by the unions, Which IMO are killing this country!

Yes every auto manufacturer has unions . . BUT management in the companies that are earning $$$ is different . .

It's one the reasons that BMW and Toyota are money makers.
FWIW, BMW is the only privately held car company in the world, and worldwide they are the biggest money maker. (Motor Trend, a recent article)

This countries automotive industry has had 40 years to wake up, the first Toyota Corolla should have made Detroit come out of it's sleep. While the Japanese struggled to get a foot hold here, they also learned from their mistakes, and studied the markets ..

And I can't ignore the comment about how all our Donzi's are made here . . and it made me think of all the posts over the past years about the failing quality . . lack of response from Donzi Corporate, and the most recent thread about stringers and 22s . . .

This country needs to wake up . . . :confused: :frown:

Mario

Sofa King
02-19-2007, 10:45 AM
Rootsy, I know you wanna do the Jane Fonda...

Mickey Avalon

Rootsy
02-19-2007, 12:22 PM
Rootsy, I know you wanna do the Jane Fonda...
Mickey Avalon

Jane Fonda deserves to be publicly be-headed on national television - Prime time Friday night...

Just Say N20
02-19-2007, 03:17 PM
Jane Fonda deserves to be publicly be-headed on national television - Prime time Friday night...

DITTO.

And, "Ignore List is a great feature. :yes: My BP is way lower now that I have taken advantage of this capability.

Carl C
02-19-2007, 05:05 PM
It's not a true "global economy" when it is so lopsided. Yeah we have a few plants overseas but nothing like what Jap companies have established here. Hey Jamie, see pic. :uzi:

Rootsy
02-19-2007, 05:19 PM
It's not a true "global economy" when it is so lopsided. Yeah we have a few plants overseas but nothing like what Jap companies have established here. Hey Jamie, see pic. :uzi:

Nice Taurus... My second choice, the S&W just fits me better and i am VERY familiar with smoothing out an S&W wheel gun trigger group.. ;)

FOSTER
02-19-2007, 06:03 PM
Allright Rootsy and Carl, I was'ent going to get into this one but your making it to hard to stay away. Got this one a few weeks ago, after 40 rounds one afternoon I went inside and ordered a pair of shooting gloves.

Rootsy
02-19-2007, 07:34 PM
Allright Rootsy and Carl, I was'ent going to get into this one but your making it to hard to stay away. Got this one a few weeks ago, after 40 rounds one afternoon I went inside and ordered a pair of shooting gloves.

amazing how that extra 10 ounces really tames my little ladybug... i put half a box of 357 Speer Gold dots through it when i got it Saturday... not too untamable... I carried it today and the extra weight is a non-issue with an IWB holster... i've shot a 340 PD and it isn't something i would care to do every day, really uncomfortable on my thumb.... personally i enjoy my 686+ MUCH more for uber-heavy 357 loads :D

Glad we could suck you in ;)

Ranman
02-19-2007, 11:19 PM
A lot of what we've been talking about here. I might have somewhat of a different outlook if "T" had a little more of a local showing and support.

You just gotta love Jack Roush for being so "vocal".:wink:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070218/ts_alt_afp/usjapanautocompany_070218232939

Formula Jr
02-20-2007, 12:44 AM
you guys are amusing some times.

http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html

Formula Jr
02-20-2007, 01:03 AM
You guys are amusing some times.

http://www.thunder5.com/docs1.html

And yes, you can hot load a 45/70, there is a cylinder for that and it will shoot it without blowing up.
You just will lose all feeling in your hands for a day or two if/and/or you didn't break your wrists trying to hold it.

Rootsy
02-20-2007, 06:30 AM
back to this car stuff... why don't we just call it what it truly is... we as Americans, at least the previous 2 or 3 generations, still hold a grudge against Japan... that thing called World War II in the Pacific... Pearl Harbor, the deaths of tens of thousands of American service men through nearly 4 years of terrible war.... My generation and those after me are disjointed from understanding what our fathers and more so, grandfathers experienced and why they held such contempt and do so til this day... This might not be true for all but i damn sure guarantee it is for some... We just like to call it "Patriotism"...

Detroit is so brand loyal because the big 3 and many of the absorbed smaller companies (oldsmobile, packard, studebaker, etc etc) built the city and built the lives of thousands upon thousands of families... GM, Ford and Chrysler are pretty much kin to many families, stretching over multiple generations... The thought of them struggling and going the way of the do-do bird due to outside influence is almost like a drug addict going through withdrawl...

Sofa King
02-20-2007, 08:48 AM
You old guys with your wheel guns crack me up, the LEAST you can do is shave of the spurs on your hammers...SHEESH. :bonk:

Elmer Keith

Carl C
02-20-2007, 09:01 AM
You old guys with your wheel guns crack me up, the LEAST you can do is shave of the spurs on your hammers...SHEESH. :bonk:
Elmer Keith

Advantages of a revolver:

More powerful
All energy goes to propelling the bullet
simplicity; will not jam
Cartridges stay in the gun

Have you guys seen "Lords of War" with Nick Cage? I loved the .357 sequence. :uzi:

Now, back to cars...........:convertib

Rootsy
02-20-2007, 10:18 AM
You old guys with your wheel guns crack me up, the LEAST you can do is shave of the spurs on your hammers...SHEESH. :bonk:
Elmer Keith

that's what the Wire EDM sitting outside of my office door is for chief... Lest we mock what we don't understand.....

FISHIN SUCKS
02-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Okay, okay, I'm not real thrilled with the fact that my new '07 Avalanche was built in Mexico, but so far (10k miles in 3 mos) I am very happy with it. My '03 Z71 I traded in had 121k and had no problems, saying a lot considering all the towing I had done with it.

I am sure that toyota DOES have $300mil to put into promoting their project, they don't have the unions that the big 3 have. The japanese aren't totally stupid you know. They recognize that we have the BEST workforce in the world! Unlike much of Europe (I deal with regularly) that has 6-8 weeks of vacation, our average is half of that at 3-4 weeks (more time for productivity). If their workforce was all that and a bag of chips, they would build the vehicles there considering we import more than we export. All in all, doesn't matter what I say, think or do. I don't like japanese vehicles and I am not a union fan. Just because the 5.7 in the new tundra is a GM designed block doesn't make it a GM...and for those of you who like toyota, part of that statement comes as a relief considering your feelings for GM. My friend that works in management here at the Ft Wayne GM truck plant said that the management sucks so bad that I probably would have recosidered buying a GM anything because of some of the decisions made throughout the company (I understand, I never want to eat at Hardee's again after it being my first job in high school:spit: ). My resale values are good on my GM stuff and it get's me where I want to go:yes: .

Talked about being pissed, the Television was invented right here in Fort Wayne, Indiana, what happened to that:confused:?

realbold
02-20-2007, 07:03 PM
We have the BEST workforce in the world?:confused: I remember talking to Ford worker years ago that used to brag about going to work, punching in and then leaving for the day while co-workers would punch him out at the end of the shift. They took turns doing it and he said he used to sleep half the time he was there. I worked at Chrysler briefly in the early 90's and half the time I couldn't do my job cause the lazy thugs ahead of me were sittin in the john upstairs doin whatever. The supervisor was a joke, he couldn't do anything about it. The U Aint Working is killing the industry.

Carl C
02-20-2007, 07:23 PM
We have the BEST workforce in the world?:confused: I remember talking to Ford worker years ago that used to brag about going to work, punching in and then leaving for the day while co-workers would punch him out at the end of the shift. They took turns doing it and he said he used to sleep half the time he was there. I worked at Chrysler briefly in the early 90's and half the time I couldn't do my job cause the lazy thugs ahead of me were sittin in the john upstairs doin whatever. The supervisor was a joke, he couldn't do anything about it. The U Aint Working is killing the industry. A friend of mine had the same sweetheart deal at Ford. Now he lost his overtime and other stuff and he already lost his car and is letting the bank take his house back! It was overmortgaged anyway. Changes are being made and there are casualties but maybe it'll all work out. I wish Ford could get Chrysler. They could make the Jeep brand popular again.:convertib

yeller
02-20-2007, 08:57 PM
I wish Ford could get Chrysler. They could make the Jeep brand popular again.:convertibI second that!! Doesn't look like the Bronco is ever going to make it back into production, but a Ford built Jeep would be a good second choice.

Sofa King
02-21-2007, 01:26 AM
advantages to auto, quicker, less recoil, faster second shot acquistion, higher capacity & more streamlined...CARL :propeller

FISHIN SUCKS
02-21-2007, 04:58 AM
We have the BEST workforce in the world?:confused: I remember talking to Ford worker years ago that used to brag about going to work, punching in and then leaving for the day while co-workers would punch him out at the end of the shift. They took turns doing it and he said he used to sleep half the time he was there. I worked at Chrysler briefly in the early 90's and half the time I couldn't do my job cause the lazy thugs ahead of me were sittin in the john upstairs doin whatever. The supervisor was a joke, he couldn't do anything about it. The U Aint Working is killing the industry.
There are always exceptions and I know what you mean. But by and large, when those 'wastes of space' lose their job and try to re-apply somewhere else, it can come back to haunt them (and sometimes we hope). I like your UAW bit, that's good:yes: . I had some buddies of mine that worked at the Dana plant here, telling me some stories about workmans comp. Talk about a welfare system:eek!: And this is what I mean, toyota and honda don't want this UAW thing and the baggage that comes along with it. This is where they count on OSHA to do there part for the safety aspect and for reputable employees to do their job.