Question: Donzi 16 and 4-stroke outboards

[jbegley]

I had been very interested in finding a Baby Donzi 16 outboard model in the past until I spoke with a marine mechanic about inspecting one for me. He discouraged me because of the move to 4 stroke outboards by all the major manufacturers. He said that they are much heavier and that they tend to be long-shaft models which I inferred would be unsuitable for a Donzi 16.

I can see how the extra weight would impact performance purely from the extra weight, but I'm more concerned about the affect of having that much extra weight on the transom causing the boat to perform poorly or to be dangerous. Also, how it might limit the max HP, e.g., if a 200HP, 2 cycle is okay weight and power wise, might a 200HP 4 cycle not be okay simply because of the extra weight?

Has anybody had experience with the larger, 4 stroke outboards on Donzi 16s? If so, how would you judge it's performance? Any other insight or comments?

Thank you in advance!!

[MOP]

I don't think the weight is an issue as the 16 with a V8 I/O is a lot heavier in the azz end, we have a few guys up here with the 16 OB hopefully the will chime in with handling etc.

Phil

[Barry Eller]

From what I've read, the 4 strokes are approx 100 pounds heavier than a 2 stroke of the same HP rating. I think the extra weight will affect the handling and performance, as the weight is farther back on the transom than in a sterndrive. But, some lakes will not allow 2 strokes anymore.... What-cha-gonna-do?
:confused:

[BUIZILLA]

up to 135 would be ok.... more than that I wouldn't do it

[Cuda]

How small do they make the Evinrude E-tec? They are supposed to be more fuel efficient, and have less emissions than the same size four strokes.

[Cuda]

I found this on the net.

Brand new Evinrude E-tec 115DPL outboard boat motor. 2007. 20" shaft. It has electric start, fastrak TM trim, direct fuel injection, 75 degree trim, 2.0:1 gear ratio, weighs 369 lbs., and comes with a 3 year full warranty! for more detailed specs on this engine visit this link:

[BUIZILLA]

A 225 ProMax only weighs 382... :lookaroun

[Barry Eller]

A 225 ProMax only weighs 382... :lookaroun


A ProMax is a 2 stroke, isn't it?

[BigGrizzly]

First thing that boat is rated at 135hp max. Next there are several to chose from Honda has a 135 and 150 , both are the same size and weight there is also Suzuki, Yamaha and Merc.

[jbegley]

Thanks for all the responses! I never realized the boat was only rated for 135HP, it doesn't seem fair in light of the availability of 302s and 351s as standard equipment in the past. The 4.3s were rated at either 190HP or 210HP in the case of the LX, weren't they? I don't get it.

Sounds like a 16 OB will work with an ETEC or four-stroke at 135HP or lower. Maybe in time four-strokes will lose some weight. :-)

Seems like there are a lot of old classic performance boats out there -- Allison, Hydrostream, STV. -- which will be more significantly hit by the increased weight associated with the same horsepower.

[BUIZILLA]

the 175 Verado is a 4 cyl...

[BigGrizzly]

BTW this year at the boat show there will be som good outboard stuff

[WingWing]

How small do they make the Evinrude E-tec? They are supposed to be more fuel efficient, and have less emissions than the same size four strokes.

don't believe the infomercials, the optimax (2 stroke) is faster and more fuel efficient than the e-tech. Why do you think in their crap-fo-mercials, bombardier only compares the etech to the verado (apple to orange when an apple is available)? Why do you think etech no-showed after RSVPing to the only objective side by side comparison on the 225hp's (Merc, yamaha, etech on like boats set up by the motor mfg.'s own techs)... oh yeah, because the Optimax handed the etech its butt last year in the 200 comparison done by B&W magazine and they did not want a second embarassment. The verado is made for big offshore rigs. It is a couple hundred pounds heavier than the comparable 2 stroke, and drinks more gas. good for what it is, but not for this boat when emissions, economy, and speed are at least as good with the current 2-strokes.

a merc 200xs, 2.5xs, 150 optimax, 200 optimax, 225 optimax would all be pretty good motors if you wanted fuel economy, low emissions and speed, but the weight is greater than the older 2.5's like buzila mentioned. Not sure about speed limitations of the hull, but I like his idea of the 225 promax.

[BigGrizzly]

Gee wing I didn't know the 150 Verado was for a big offshore unit. Just so everone knows not all Verado are supercharged. And for fuel efficiency the Verado stinks as d oes the opti max, compared to any of the four strokes out there. What I want to know is why do so many tech refer to it as opti-pop?

[WingWing]

Gee wing I didn't know the 150 Verado was for a big offshore unit. Just so everyone knows not all Verado are supercharged. And for fuel efficiency the Verado stinks as d oes the opti max, compared to any of the four strokes out there. What I want to know is why do so many tech refer to it as opti-pop?

No disrespect biggrizzly, I have enjoyed a lot of your posts with regards to I/O applications, especially with supercharging, but you really should check some of your facts on the optimax and outboards. The verado 150 non-supercharged is still a lot heavier than the equivalent optimax (510lbs vs 431lbs on the 150hp), no matter how you slice it. Since we are talking about a boat designed for an inline-6 in the low 300lb range, that is quite a difference on the transom. The Verado is quieter without a doubt, but for a small boat that is about the only advantage it will have.

Here is a little unbiased info for you to read that might help you out on the "optimax Stinks for fuel efficiency" theory:rolleyes:

2 stroke 250's tested with 4 stroke verado 250- june 2006
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?ID=1122463

No sense dancing around it, in terms of speed and acceleration, Mercury’s 250XS is clearly the champion of the 250-horsepower crowd -- and by a very significant margin. We hit a best average top speed of 64.5 mph spinning a 24-inch-pitch lab-worked Bravo I four-blade wheel right at the limiter (5850 rpm). We actually bumped the limiter a few times, trimming high into the wind while trying to eke out that last mph. The next closest speed was achieved by the Verado, at 63 mph even (turning a 23-inch lab-finished Tempest Plus propeller) at 6140 rpm. The Yamaha finished third with a solid 60-mph clocking, turning a stock 23-inch-pitch Yamaha VX-Max three-blade prop at 6000 rpm. In the top speed wars, the Suzuki came up fourth out of the four, pushing the Ranger to 58.6 mph at 6100 rpm turning a stock Suzuki 16x24.5-inch three-blade prop.

No surprise to us at /BWB/ but probably a disappointment to tree-huggers everywhere, the two-stroke Mercury 250XS eked out a win in the fuel-economy challenge, too. With an average of 3.5 mpg across the entire rpm range, it bested the Suzuki by one-tenth of a gallon. The Yamaha came in a close third at 3.2 mpg, and the absolutely thirsty Verado finished a distant fourth with a 2.8 mpg average.



Clearly, four-strokes have a long way to go yet in the top speed, acceleration and even the fuel-economy wars before they can catch a well-tuned DFI two-stroke like Mercury’s 250XS. It’s a shame we didn’t have Evinrude’s 250 E-Tec in the mix to compare — they were very conspicuous in their absence. Scared is more like it!:eek!:

250 shootout march 2003
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?ID=943489


Everyone wants to know the top speed numbers first. Mercury Racing’s 250XS OptiMax won this event hands down, with a speed of 78.6 mph at 5760 rpm — easily faster than the second-place Evinrude (75.7 mph at 5870 rpm) and third-place Yamaha (75.2 mph at 5500 rpm).

The Mercury achieved the best fuel economy, as well...The Evinrude finished second in fuel economy...Yamaha pulled up the rear...

225 shooutout feb 2006
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?ID=1059733

Merc won the top speed contest by a wide margin, posting a clean 90.0 mph..

Not only did the Merc best the others by a minimum of 5.1 mph at the top end, it also won honors for best fuel economy by recording an incredible 6.2 gallons per hour at a best-cruise speed of 34.3 mph @ 2500 rpm. Averaging the entire fuel economy results, Merc won overall in this category too, with an average 4.6 miles per gallon.

In this test, the fastest was also the stingiest — that’s great news for those on a fuel budget who want to rule the river.


200 shootout- feb 2006
http://www.bwbmag.com/output.cfm?ID=1059625


Meanwhile, Mercury took top honors in mid-range acceleration, fuel economy and price, and shared the No. 1 spot with Evinrude for warranty.

As far as the opti-pop, there were issues in the late 90's when they were first introduced. These issues are long gone.

Anyway, hope this helps enlighten you and anyone else who has seen a little too much saturday morning Bombardier marketing, or talked to too many people who ppretend to know. Facts are facts. I know of no other group than B&W that spends to money to give an objective apples to apples comparison, like boats, only consumer available motords, and lets the manufacturer's techs set the boats up. Given that, it is no surprise E-tech no-showed for the last one since they could not control the outcome... like in their infomercials/

As of right now, no one is touching the merc 2 strokes unless you have a heavy offshore boat where a verado or the new yamaha 350(still not released but anounced last month in miami) will definitely be the answer. Mercs are faster and more fuel efficient... and JD powers seems to agree when it comes to reliability although I personally think yamaha, suzuki, E-tech are also making extremely reliable motors and would not bet against any of them removing owner maintenance differences.

[smoothie]

The popcorns a poppin......

[BigGrizzly]

Wing I see the shoot outs on economy, but Honda wasn't invited! BTW Who got the JD Powers this year which was announced at Miami, Mot merc But Honda. As for fuel economy Honda is the all out champ. This is fact, not fiction. Honda has beat all comers on exactly the same boats. Tell you a story at a shootout on Lake X several years ago. Merc was loosing to Yamaha and suzi, they disappeared for a couple of hours than came back and did outstanding, wonder how it happened? Honda has never won a performance shootout and never lost an economy run either. No doubt merc is a performer. I was referring to the 150 being an offshore unit only. One more minor question who has the best free warranty in the industry? BTW no offense taken.

[WingWing]

Madpoodle, you are correct, the xs is made by the racing division, but it is a consumer outboard, unlike the s2000, sst120 motors which are made for racing only. Mercury still caters (arguably) to performance enthusiasts, and since the criteria was a motor that anyone could walk in off the street and buy, it fits the bill- although you are right, it should win in speed, especially with a lower unit that will allow greater speed and performance than the others come equipped with.

Biggrizzly, I wish Honda would have been invited. I don't think Honda would have fared too well in the performance comparison, but I agree with you that it more than likely would have taken the top honors on fuel economy, and they sure are quite. If I had a little flats boat, I believe I would want a honda as my first choice.

BTW, not able to figure out where biggrizzly works, but from reading some of his posts, I can tell he knows his way around motors...

[HASKELL MARINE]

Mercury Put out a brochure at the 2006 Miami Boat Show Labled "Someone's about to get a 'RUDE Awakening." It was all independent information gathered from Bass & Walleye Boats Magazine / June 2005 & December 2005. Here are some of the stats:
Optimum Fuel Economy (MPG)
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 6.2 Optimax 200 5.8
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 5.8 200 VMAX HPDI 5.5
Evinrude E-TEC 225HO 5.0 E-TEC 200HO 4.4

Optimum Fuel Economy (MPG)
Mercury Optimax 90 7.7
Evinrude E-TEC 90 6.7

Carbon Monoxide Emissions
Mercury Optimax 78.8
Evinrude E_TEC HO 84.9
(Optimax produces 10% LESS CARBON MONOXIDE than E-TEC)

Top Speed (mph)
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 90.0 Optimax 90 42.6
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 84.9
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO 84.2 Evinrude E-TEC 90 41.5

Hole Shot 0-30 mph (seconds)
Mercury Optimax 200 7.6
Evinrude E-TEC 200 HO 8.2

Mid-Range 40-60 MPH (seconds)
Mercury Optimax 200 6.8
Yamaha 200 VMAX HPDI 7.4
Evinrude E-TEC 200 HO 7.6

WEIGHT
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 520 lbs
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO 564 lbs
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 584 lbs

MSRP
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS $16,664.00
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO $20,421.00

Judge for Yourself...

[BigGrizzly]

Wing I work for Honda the Manufacturer of those engines, not a dealership. What is funny with all the specs Honda is very rarely included. What is also funny we arn't that far behinf in performance and we will be getting closer, and not sacrifice fuel economy. Is Merc worried You bet-ya. Why do you think they filed a product dumping suit against the Japanese makers. The suit was aimed at Yamaha, but it drug all into it too. The japan boys came out clean. funny Yamaha was making some engines for merc because they couldn't. This caused financial harm to us and held up R&D of some new products, but all is well now. BTW the 225->275 Verado cost them over $110,000,000 to design, and it isn't paying off. Now with the Yamie V8 they can replace 3 big mercs with 2 Yamaha s and save weight and money. This info won't help the 16 OB which what this was about in the first place. One thing everyone is overlooking is the feds will soon impose more regs on all outboard motors just like motorcycles. Even dirt bikes will be affected. So have fun now. This is all I will say on this subject.

[WingWing]

Big Grizzly, I am in almost total agreement with you. I am not a big fan of the verado and hate that the new management at merc decided to try to force them down everyone's throat (they have one true application IMHO). BRP responded with the e-tech (clean 2-stroke), and Merc responded with the better optimaxes than anyone else is producing IMHO; but I am performance fan.

You are also correct with the feds/EPA, clean motor regulations,law suits...etc. The end is near for performance outboards as we know them, that is why I don't believe Honda (no disrespect) will ever pass Merc in that avenue. Not that they could not, we all know what the japanese have been able to do with 2-strokes in other areas), just that with ever decreasing markets, more federal regulation...etc, why make something that a smaller segment wants, and fight the feds?

To get the speed, you have to turn the rpms, which decreases the service life of a motor. Most would rather a motor that has decent speed and lasts for ever. Even the 2.5xs recently introduced from merc as a clean performance motor designed to take the place of the 260, 280, 300drag did not sell. The writing is on the wall.

I for one am glad mercury is still making a few performance motors, but it wont be long before they follow the crowd with yamaha, honnda, suzuki, BRP... all who are more than capable of making much bigger HP out of their motors, but won't. just my opinion, I might be wrong.

Good discussion Biggrizly, thanks. :)

[WingWing]

PS I wish honda was included in the tests as well. I think they would do very well. My guess having followed them for a little while is that the reason was more than likely the cost. B&W has to get the like hulls etc to pput the tests together. Merc, e-tech are the ford and chevy of mine's better than yours and yamaha has a pretty large following as well. I am guessing that B&W chose those three due to the overall popularity and interest it would generate and it would have considerably increased their costs to add a fourth or fifth boat to include honda and suzuki.

It would have been nice if the E-tech folks would have let B&W know that they were going to chicken out of the last test so someone else (like honda) could have taken their place; I think it would have opened a lot of consumer's eyes.

If you know someone at honda, have them get in touch with a guy named John Tiger Jr., at bass and walleye magazine. They test every year, and it would be great to see honda included and I am sure it would be great free marketing for you guys; even if you have to buy your own boat to come LOL. Seriously, with B&W being the only independent tester stepping up to the plate and spending the moeny to test, their results travel through a lot of circles.

[WingWing]

thanks haskell marine, I was looking for that when I first responded but could not find it.


Mercury Put out a brochure at the 2006 Miami Boat Show Labled "Someone's about to get a 'RUDE Awakening." It was all independent information gathered from Bass & Walleye Boats Magazine / June 2005 & December 2005. Here are some of the stats:
Optimum Fuel Economy (MPG)
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 6.2 Optimax 200 5.8
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 5.8 200 VMAX HPDI 5.5
Evinrude E-TEC 225HO 5.0 E-TEC 200HO 4.4
Optimum Fuel Economy (MPG)
Mercury Optimax 90 7.7
Evinrude E-TEC 90 6.7
Carbon Monoxide Emissions
Mercury Optimax 78.8
Evinrude E_TEC HO 84.9
(Optimax produces 10% LESS CARBON MONOXIDE than E-TEC)
Top Speed (mph)
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 90.0 Optimax 90 42.6
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 84.9
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO 84.2 Evinrude E-TEC 90 41.5
Hole Shot 0-30 mph (seconds)
Mercury Optimax 200 7.6
Evinrude E-TEC 200 HO 8.2
Mid-Range 40-60 MPH (seconds)
Mercury Optimax 200 6.8
Yamaha 200 VMAX HPDI 7.4
Evinrude E-TEC 200 HO 7.6
WEIGHT
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS 520 lbs
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO 564 lbs
Yamaha 225 VMAX HPDI 584 lbs
MSRP
Mercury Optimax 225 ProXS $16,664.00
Evinrude E-TEC 225 HO $20,421.00
Judge for Yourself...

[BigGrizzly]

B&W has already tested them and we do have a bass tournament team which does well against the merc guys, again we are not allowed to fish in som Merc sponsored events. BTW we aren't really that much slower than the optis and cost within 50 dollars of them. as for bigger motors Yamaha has the V8 Suzy is coming on strong. As for Honda The new 90 hp engines are lighter faster and yet more fuel efficient they are rivaling Two smokes now. Als in the 2 stroke market we only built them as race bikes as a platform, new race stuff is 4 stroke. as for the RPM thing well all our performance street bikes have red lines of around 11,000 and are happy cruising at 6->7,000 rpms all day long. Our 225hp ob is actually the mini van block turned vertically. Now we as well as Yamaha and suzy are taping into the MC aspect. There isn't anything else I can talk about. All I can say is roll the dice. There is more to Honda than performance. Its warranty, parts CR, and service, I will match against any other OB MC or car company in the world. Honda and it employees have a commitment to the customers and dealers. At least most of us do. When I was at a dealership I would think it must be hype. Now that I work for them and have been shipped over the world, these guys are serious about this. In What other company does the senior executive come down to the engineering department and gets his hands dirty and field test him self. Been there and seen it. BTW that rude awakening was as a result of Evenrude blatant attract on merc in a TV add with bass boats on the fishing channel. We have the same kind of tests for dealer meetings but don't use them to embarrass the other publicly. Let the other guy cast the first stone.

[steven s]

I have a 16 o/b with a 115 Yamaha 2 stroke caarbed.I got 52 on Gps with a 3 people a half a tank of gas.It is pretty fast but at high rpm's it goes threw gas quick with about 2.5 mpg but at mid range I get 3 to 3.5.