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View Full Version : Arneson replacement on a 22 Classic



Pismo
01-13-2007, 03:47 PM
Anyone ever tried putting an ASD on a 22 with stockish (<500) hp?

Cuda
01-13-2007, 04:01 PM
I think it would be a helluva job to do, moving the engine forward for a transmission, redoing the transom, and such. I think after all the work, even if it performed great, it would be a tough sell if you ever wanted to sell it. Jamesbond is putting one in a 21 GT, if we still have any gasoline at our disposal by the time he is done. :):eek!: :wink:

Mr X
01-13-2007, 05:04 PM
Actually, the engine could stay exactly where it is.....using a "stand off box"
The transmission fits neatly in it.
The bigest problem I see is the arneson will not give any bow lift at all. 22's desperatly need bow lift to run at speed.

Cuda
01-13-2007, 05:15 PM
I thought about the tranny in a standoff box after I posted that.

Lenny
01-13-2007, 07:16 PM
CDMA has done this already, but I am not sure, given his work schedule and new life, if he has pursued it much further. Chris was using the Standdoff Box, NOT moving the engine forward.

Fill your boots :D

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24857&highlight=Arneson

Pismo
01-13-2007, 07:51 PM
I think you would lose speed due to lack of bow lift which the 22 absolutely needs to really get going. If big hp, then it would do better since not so dependent on that bow lift.

MOP
01-13-2007, 08:39 PM
You can get bow lift with Arneson Rocker plates. Geo was able to induce porpoising with the Arnesons so they do work, prior to them he ram very flat they added quite a bit of speed. It was posted up here that they were not good for the average boater, I would love to see more input on them from guys that are running them.

Phil

Mr X
01-13-2007, 09:25 PM
GEOO's boat had no bow lift with the arneson, prior to adding the small hydrofoil fin horizontal on the drive skeg. The boat was undeivable above 60 MPH according to GEOO, due to bow steer as a result from no bow lift. The rocker plates alone would not provide enough bow lift even on a 18 AND that was an 18 that has a ton of bow lift at zero trim in the stock configuration

MOP
01-13-2007, 09:51 PM
Ted had several talks with George the plates made all the difference in the world, the foil on the drive made the boat manageable. The boat ran ran about 110 with the foil and topped 120 with the plates, I'll try giving him a call in the AM for his input.

Phil

DonCig
01-13-2007, 10:07 PM
I wish that we had an active member that had some experience in aeronautical or marine engineering. It would be nice if we could talk about lift, thrust angles and the like.
I have a 1997 Classic 18 and I feel that I have had had the chance to experiment in ways that some other memebrs may have not experienced.
Some of my observations are as follows:
1. You are always balancing the various forces of a boat just as in an airplane; and when one force is much stronger than the other forces; you can have an inbalance or an overriding force.
2. Case in point; different props in any boat can shift the center of gravity fowards or rearward making the boat better balanced or less balanced. And both faster or slower.
3. Likewise a different drive may bring all the forces together for the best ride combination that can be found; or the worst!

So you have to give credit to Donzi for dialing in your boat if it handles well; and if it does not then please understand that it will take some time and hard work to get it just right.

When you get everything dialed in just right; it brings out the DONZI smile!
h
DonCig

DonCig
01-13-2007, 10:10 PM
Actually, the engine could stay exactly where it is.....using a "stand off box"
The transmission fits neatly in it.
The bigest problem I see is the arneson will not give any bow lift at all. 22's desperatly need bow lift to run at speed.

And I feel that 18's need it just as well.

Don

Budmann
01-14-2007, 03:40 PM
I'm sure Cuda could tell everyone how tricky it is to use surface piercing drives at low or docking speeds!!

He had two... hate to see how one would do...

Just my two cents...

Bud

BigGrizzly
01-14-2007, 06:38 PM
Point with GEOO's boat he did over 100 without rocker plates then broke a tab and went with the plates. the hydrofoil went on before the rocker plates. The hulls of a 18 and 22 aee not even close. the 18 is a true rocker hull and has some bow lift with a od in neutral trim the 22 does not. CDMA has not yet put the 22 together it is still up in the northeast. what the outcome will be nobody knows not even him. This much I will say that GOO's fin took hours ti bend just right. Without it like tTd said it was unmanageable with it it though it was a 27 foot boat. Like Don said balance is everything. I have driven many 17 through 25 foot V hulls claiming to be 24 degree dead rise and I can tell you non drive like a Donzi classics. NONE, not cigs , fountains not Python knock offs none and I don't know why. Ted has probably tested every V hull there is ask him what he thinks, he has owned at least one Donzi forever.

Mr X
01-15-2007, 05:25 AM
My point is, IMHO:
the 18 hull has plenty of bow lift (rocker and balance) to get away with an Arneson, the 22 does not. Even the 22 Blackhawk hull with added rocker and a changed center of balance from the factory (fuel tank moved aft), is crying for more bow lift....and that is with 2 props
on a Blackhawk drive.
IMHO it wont work without MAJOR bottom modifaction. But hey, its just my opinion.

Pismo
01-15-2007, 10:00 AM
My point is, IMHO:
the 18 hull has plenty of bow lift (rocker and balance) to get away with an Arneson, the 22 does not. Even the 22 Blackhawk hull with added rocker and a changed center of balance from the factory (fuel tank moved aft), is crying for more bow lift....and that is with 2 props
on a Blackhawk drive.
IMHO it wont work without MAJOR bottom modifaction. But hey, its just my opinion.

I think this hits it right on, better on a BlackHawk hull but still not the best. Not good at all on a regular 22.

roadtrip se
01-15-2007, 01:56 PM
My point is, IMHO:
Even the 22 Blackhawk hull with added rocker and a changed center of balance from the factory (fuel tank moved aft), is crying for more bow lift....and that is with 2 props
on a Blackhawk drive.

Now that would be cool or absolutely insane.

What to call it? How about "The Phoniex" with the chicken on the hood and all?

Ted, help me understand your bow lift comment. After spending many hours piloting Gerometta's beast this summer while the SE sufferd through the trailer-induced Canadian hostage crisis, that dang thing had more bow lift than a 747 on takeoff!

Never thought of this one before, but somebody has got to find a donor boat and give it a shot. Heck with the BH to Bravo conversion, somebody get some stones and lets have some real fun!

Cuda
01-15-2007, 03:35 PM
I'm sure Cuda could tell everyone how tricky it is to use surface piercing drives at low or docking speeds!!
He had two... hate to see how one would do...
Just my two cents...
Bud
Actually, it's not bad at all at low speeds going forward, now backing one in is problematic at best.

I've even gotten mine to the dock with only one engine running, of course it would be the one without the power steering. I was at a crowded marina, when I saw an opening, I went for it. I kind of cut off another guy that was waiting to pull out, but I apollogised to him, and explained I couldn't just hover out there in the basin. He was understanding.

Cuda
01-15-2007, 03:36 PM
Besides, how many of us pick out a boat due to it's great low speed handling?:wink:

Boatless
02-09-2007, 06:53 PM
The 18' Classic has a lot of hook in the bottom. GEOO ground that out when he first installed the Arneson.

I just love the negative comments. No experience therefore, it must not work.

The fin stabilized the boat, but then again what 18' boat running over 100 doesn't need some help?

Mr X
02-10-2007, 06:00 AM
The 18' Classic has a lot of hook in the bottom. GEOO ground that out when he first installed the Arneson.
I just love the negative comments. No experience therefore, it must not work.
The fin stabilized the boat, but then again what 18' boat running over 100 doesn't need some help?
Please enlighten us on your experiance. :confused:

BigGrizzly
02-10-2007, 08:06 AM
Enlighten me, I have yet to see a 18 Donzi with a hook that overrides the rocker in that hull the boat squats the stern to begin with which is why when you put a big block with a V drive it now plows and is slower then a 289 H&M small block. In the early years I actually did a comparison on the only Corsican I saw with one until WA-LO found the one I was trying to find for 5 years. NO, he did not cut me out of the deal, he got it a year before me. Point is How many years did GEOO work on that boat, How many $ did he spend and how much Horse Power did he have. A 22 classic with with a shorty IMCO and 750 Hp and Hydraulic steering will go high 90's. Mighty Mouse is a wonderful boat but I don't want to hassle with it. Speed is a wonderful thing if set up correctly, but it is not for everybody.

MOP
02-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Question! Many of the Arneson equipped boats are much bigger with twins, take Joe's his boat looks as if it does very well with the K's. In watching some of the off shore races most of the A drive boats are 38 foot and better, would the CG on those boats be so different in fact even farther forward the a 22. It like stated earlier in this thread it may just be a question of the power needed to realize the full potential of the combo. Chris needs to ship his 22 south and finish it up!

Phil

Boatless
02-10-2007, 02:23 PM
Please enlighten us on your experiance. :confused:

I listened to Geoo, and he tinkered with the boat when it had a Volvo on it, he adjusted, he moved things. He changed legs, he changed propellers, he worked on it constantly.

Then he put an Arneson on it and you guys make it sound like it was too much work?

The process of who Geoo is did not change. The speed of the boat did.

Geoo said the boat went from 66 to 83 just by changing the out drive.

He and CDMA both have claimed to have removed the hook from the bottom of the boat.

Yes he put a lot of power in the boat, but do you really think that 120 something is obtainable with no hp?

Geoo does not have a transmission, which was his idea. Yet someone made a comment about his docking. He had the same idea the flat bottom boats have. If one cannot handle an 18' boat at the docks by hand, should one really be boating?

Remember, Geoo built this boat for what he wanted it to do. Not necessarily what everyone else would want it for. Speed takes work and I think Geoo did a damn great job with that little boat. Geoo would have been pushing it even if it had an outboard on it.

Boatless
02-10-2007, 02:34 PM
Question! Many of the Arneson equipped boats are much bigger with twins, take Joe's his boat looks as if it does very well with the K's. In watching some of the off shore races most of the A drive boats are 38 foot and better, would the CG on those boats be so different in fact even farther forward the a 22. It like stated earlier in this thread it may just be a question of the power needed to realize the full potential of the combo. Chris needs to ship his 22 south and finish it up!
Phil

Balance is key to every boat setup from a 12' Schiada to a 1,100' ship.

The CG relation is a concern with any boat. Newer step bottom boats have a different running principal than the older non step bottom design, but the balance of the boat stays relatively the same.

With a non step bottom boat the cg is more critical to the boats running attitude than with the stepped boat design and this is what it takes to make them run. Ever notice that a TRS boat is slower than a Bravo boat? The Bravo installation has the engine more rearward by nearly 10” I think. 800 lbs 10” more rearward on a 18-22’ boat makes a difference.

As for power to realize, the answer is no. Given your example of the larger boats, 38’ ish. The “Hustler” 344 with 525’s runs 103 mph with the A’s and with the Bravo’s it runs 93. The Formula 382’s are faster with same power also.

Propellers are a huge factor and influence on the boats performance. Rake and diameter play the role of attitude and efficiency. One cannot over look a setup with the wrong equipment as it can/will handicap an application of any type.

Boatless
02-10-2007, 02:36 PM
Actually, I think the inquiry has more to do with your hook in the 18 hull comments than the actual process Geoo went through building his boat.. Which we are pretty familiar with...

That's why I stated my experience by reading what Geoo and CDMA have stated.

Mr X
02-10-2007, 02:51 PM
Well then, that clears everything up! :bonk: http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/ernaehrung/food-smiley-007.gif

Dr. Dan
02-10-2007, 03:40 PM
Where's Matty and Boxy with the Popcorn when ya need them?

Next! :wavey:

Doc of Dimentia :beer:

BUIZILLA
02-10-2007, 04:11 PM
:tv:

Lenny
02-11-2007, 12:49 AM
That's why I stated my experience by reading what Geoo and CDMA have stated.

Ya know, instead of reading, you should respect the thoughts and insight of the people that were right beside him through all this. The people Geoo and Chris stood beside.

You are not telling us anything new, the long time board members were there,... :rolleyes: 280, E-drive, Arneson and from 82-120+ mph and a MOUNTAIN of ponies.

...BUT, as stated previously, the "HOOK" in the 18 ???

...ahhh, there is none...

Maybe you are thinking of the 16, but then, there is the TOTAL unimportance of the actual "HOOK" in that one.

Are you still (Boat) DONZI-less ???



;)

BigGrizzly
02-11-2007, 09:29 AM
I will see GEOO and Chris next week and ask them about the hook. In all the conversations with him I don't remember the hook ever entering into the discussions, which BTW are still in the archives. Now the bottoms may not be perfectly straight but I would hardly call it a hook by any stretch of the imagination. the rocker is from bow to stern where could the hook be?
Horse power does matter. and so does boat set up. I sell and test props for 4 major companies. However hull does matter. Lets not cloud the issue We are not talking Hussler Skater$ Eliminator or anything else. Just show us the hook.

Mr X
02-11-2007, 12:42 PM
Rest assured gang, there is no hook in the 18 hull.

But who am I to say........:wink:

CDMA
02-11-2007, 01:46 PM
Ok time to weigh in here....

First off in regards to hook Ted/Griz/Poodle are right here that there is no natural hook in an 18 Classic. The bottoms are straight, or should be, from the factory both in 1966 and in 2006. However these are hand built items that sit on trailers, dolly's and other support mechanisms in their life. Fiberglass cures but it always can flex, move, and in high heat situations essentially re-cure with a different shape. Which is essentially why we avoid roller trailers like the plague. The point loading commonly adds "dimples" to the hull. While these dimples are slight, and actually usually can not be seen without a straight edge, they are enough to effect the running characteristics of the boat.

So in defense of boatless he did listen well. Geoo and I did take out the "hook" in the bottom of Mighty Mouse. Mighty Mouse did have some minor bottom irregularities that are now gone. I am sure many 18's, even some of your own, have these irregularities whether known or not. Bottom line we made sure the bottom of Mighty Mouse, (And by we I primarily mean George here), was straight as an arrow. Long straight edges, sanding boards, etc made sure that there was less then a 1/16" of an inch variation.

So all are right. There is no hook in an 18 classic...but we took the hook out of Mighty Mouse....go figure that one out. ;)

In terms of an arneson running on a 22 some may know that is a question close to my heart and mind. Something I wish I had time to finish to end the debate for once and all. The day seems to be getting farther away however not closer....oh well. Real life...

Anyway I will respectfully disagree with Ted; which in Donzi setup is not something usually smart doing. I think a 22 will respond better to an arneson then an 18. Having spent significant time in both Geoo's, "regular" 18's and regular 22's I think the 22 actually have more natural (isolating the hull from the outdrive, which is a very key statement) then an 18. Hence the reason why a 22 (especially with a BBC) will have a natural tendency to porpoise at mid speeds almost regardless of trim. I think with the extension box, therefore more weight aft, the boat will respond better then an 18 to an Arenson. I also think the extra aspect ratio (length to beam) ratio of the running surface will help.

So that being said I think it will work, I wouldn't be doing what I am, or was I should say, if I didn't think so. Will it still take a fin on the bottom of the drive? Yeah I think so. But due to the above mentioned reasons as well as the use of rocker plates I think the angle of attack, or essentially how mush we rely on the fin, will be greatly reduced. Furthermore should we be able to create enough bow lift without the fin I would guess that a fin with a 0 angle of attack would still be employed. Beyond speed the real key to Geoo's boat was its ability to run, run fast, and run stable in conditions no other 18 I have ever been in would. Whether an Alpha, Bravo, or Blackhawk Hp for HP mph for mph Geoo's boat will hold its own in bigger, badder conditions then any other 18. In reality to me that is what it is about. I mean those with outdrive 18's (and 22's for that matter) how often can you really USE your power. I mean put it down, and keep it down. We are constantly looking for calm enough water, even in these boats prided for their big water ability, to really use what we have. Can any other 18 keep with a 37 Outerlimits in 2-3 foot chop....nope. Only one...

Furthermore in its current configuration Geoo's boat is not unsafe without the fin. Proven by the incident right before he sold it where he lost a prop blade and it took off the lower fin. While the vibration was extreme (3 out of 4 blades), and the boat slowed significantly, it was under control and not dangerous. And it let go at 100 mph. If you kept the power down would it have handled well and been safe...likely not. But its not like the fin came off the boat flipped over. Geoo was able to slow down in a controlled and safe (as safe as 100+ mph is an 18 foot boat but that's another debate) manner. Saying its unsafe without the fin is like saying if you trim the drive all the way in, and put the tabs all the way down, then do a turn at 90....well thats unsafe. No kidding...as in any boat, especially on that is 18 ft at 100 mph, setup and operation is key.

So anyway...that's what I think and I am sticking to it.

CDMA

Boatless
02-12-2007, 12:21 AM
Yea, what he said.

undertaker
02-12-2007, 09:05 AM
HE IS ALIVE.....:) :) Very well said Chris damn you blow my mind with your knowledge:) :) Talk to you later....


Undertaker:cool:

BigGrizzly
02-12-2007, 03:40 PM
You have done well wave hopper a very concise and understandable response. Nice to see you respond. I do hope the future allowes some time to finish that project, I do know what it means to you, I remember when you got it and Person painted it. We all were waiting for all the new stuff. Then came finals and the cruise then the job. Oh yes jobs take most of our time. Now I am retired and I can't even find time to fix my stuff--HONEY-DOOOO's come first, worse than the job. See you next week.