1989 Donzi 30' Black Widow

[travisgoff]

Hey everyone, I just registered on the forum, (mostly just to see the pics), but I wanted to ask a few questions. I am a couple of days away from probably owning a 30' Yellow Donzi Black Widow...pending my inspection and test drive.

The first question is kind of silly, but I was wondering how much this boat would have sold for brand new?

The second question is more about the Black Widow Line. I don't see too many 30' black widows, (actually don't see too many black widows period, but the 24's seem to the predominate length when you do happen to come across some info or owner), and I understand the line only went about 3 or 4 years. Does this line still incorporate all the things that make a donzi great, or was this a low part in the history as it got purchased from place to place?

Seems to be the only time period that incorporated the 460's, (a ford motor), vs the predominate gm motors. When it says "King Cobra 460" does the king cobra refer to the name of the engine or does it possibly refer to the drive? It also seems this is the lowest hp year for these engines at 330, does anyone know where the difference was made? (On my chevelle, the hp difference between the years generally came from the heads and cam)

What kind of speed should I see out of this...(its original stock, so no mods). I was told this boat wasn't made to be a speed demon, but made to give a smooth ride in some rougher water. Just trying to discern whether this is a sales pitch or the real deal.

This is my first "real" boat as the biggest boat I ever had was a 19.5 Glastron v hull followed by a 16 Steury tri hull. (over 20 years ago). I was looking for a scarab but have not been able to find one in the shape that I desire and I refuse to own an outboard after all the problems and expense with my others. Almost bought a chris craft cat that was clocked at 94mph (radar from helicopter) but I didn't like the shape it was in either. Basically, I am saying that speed is NOT my determining factor in the boat purchase, (although I don't want some regal ski boat to smoke me), but more about the way it was built. I will be bound and drowned while being drug across coral before I own a bayliner or maxium.

I think this is a nice looking boat, but I don't want to base a purchase like this on new upholstery and paint. Any insight you guys can give would greatly be appreciated. Here are some pics:

[Ranman]

That's a petty nice lookng 30' Widow. You're right in that you don't see the 30' as much as the 24'. It's a very interesting and unique boat design that used "circles" or "roundness" as a key design element as shown by the port holes, deck hatch, and deck area under the windshield.

I believe that the statement is true about being built to ride well is rougher seas, but not the fastest thing on water. There are a few Donzi "Z" boat owners here who will fill you in on what to look for during that era as well as ride and performance. I know that the stringers and transoms on some other models (Z-25, Z-33) during those years have tendancies to get wet and need replacing. I suspect that the Widows may have the same issues. You'll just want to make sure the one your looking at is solid and all is well.

The reason you see the OMC Ford Cobras in these boats is because that is when OMC took over ownership of Donzi. The "King Cobra" designation refers both to the engine and drive combo, but moreso to the drive. The "King Cobra" drives are in fact upgrades over standard Cobra drives. THe Kings use a cone clutch shifting system similar to Merc Bravo drives. The Kings are good strong drives, though they are nowhere near as common as Mercs.

Get the boat surveyed and if it comes back solid, I would say you have a very nice looking 30 Widow on your hands. Good luck and let us know what happens.

[joel3078]

Congratulations on getting into Donzi world!

Figure 60-65mph top speed on GPS. The speedometer lies and usually indicates you going faster than you real speed.

New black widow sales price - read this:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47032

I have a 1990 24' and have a bunch of pics and a short video. Wanna see em, email joelek@joelek.com and I'll send em to ya.

[travisgoff]

You guys are quick to respond, thank you.

I live in Woodbridge VA, but will drive down to Buford GA Mon night to make sure all is well on Tues.

I am ignorant as to what all the parts are named, stringers are the pieces that go horizontal off the spine right? Is there an easy way to look at them on this boat?

Is the transom the piece that seperates the water from the engine compartment or the engine compartment from the people area?

65 would be a great speed, which is where I want to be for now. I am glad to hear that the King Cobras are the heavier drives. If I were to upgrade, what would be considered a step up for these drives. I am not looking to do anything right away, I just want to know so that if/when something goes bad I know what part to replace it with.

Speaking of that, around how many hours before you have to start looking at rebuilds? (generally speaking). Also, how many hours before you change fluids like oil. I am assuming I will need to change out drive oil too right?

I really like the way this boat looks, almost as much as I like the new Donzi in the miami vice movie, that boat is Awesome!

[MOP]

Hi and welcome to the board, I had the pleasure of a good long ride in a 30 belonging to Extreme Measures. It was a very choppy day and the ride was super and dry.
The transom is where the drives are, the stringers support the engine/hull both should be dry. If you really like the boat hire a marine surveyor it is money well spent, it will either kill the deal or make for good piece of mind.

Phil

[Ranman]

MOP is right about the boat survey, a must, especially in this case.

The transom is the back, flat surface of the boat where the drives are attached. The transom is essentially marine plywood sandwiched in between layers of fiberglass. DUring manufacture, several holes are cut in the transom for rigging. Holes for drive mounting, swim platform brackets, lifting rings, etc. When a hole is cut the bit goes through fiberglass then wood then fiberglass again. The exposed wood is supposed to be sealed with fiberglass resin, sealer or whatever. If the wood is left exposed or unsealed and water gets to it for some reason, the wood will suck up the water and eventually rot. You are then left with two layers of fiberglass with a very soft, rotted wood center. The structural integrity is then compromised, especially in an area where the drives are trying to push the boat through the water.

The stringers are essentially the "frame rails" of the boat. They are long wood boards stood on their narrow end that run from the transom to the front of the boat. These boards are encapsulated with fiberglass as well. Again, if there's a lot of standing water in the bilge and the stringers are submerged for long periods, any breach of the fiberglass will allow water in ultimatly rotting the wood and weakening the stringers.

Among other things, marine surveyors have devices that can test the moisture levels contained in the transom and stringers giving a good indication of their condition.

Replacing rotted stringers and transoms is not impossible, but is VERY intense and costly. It would be like replacing a rotted frame on a car.

65MPH is prolly a tad optimistic with twin 330hp's. I would think high 50's to low 60's would be realistic. Bring a handheld GPS to your sea trial and see what she does. Like MOP said speedo gauges are infamously optimistic.

There is really nothing to upgrade with the King Cobra's. You could switch to Bravos, but there's really no point. The Kings Cobras and Bravos are near equivalents. These drives are capable of handling 500+ HP with no issues. While parts are tougher to come by than Bravo's, luckily the Kings seem to hold up and perform very well.

I typically change the engine oil every 25 hours or so. Drive oil a tad less in my case but still at least twice a season (I run 100hr seasons usually).

Marine engine life can vary dramatically depending on use and care. Engines that are babied can go 1000-1200 hours or more. I like to spend a lot of time at WFO so I'm not expecting my 350 to last that long. If I get600-750 hours I'll be happy.

I have attached a picture of a Donzi during construction to illustrate the transom and stringers.

[joel3078]

Sweet pic of a work in progress. However, :wink: Donzi Jenn wasn't an option on Black Widows.

[Cuda]

I've always been a big fan of the BW. I think they are the coolest looking boat, nothing looks exactly like them. They are the type of boat, that people have a hard time guessing how old they are, because they look so different. They were built the same time as the Z25 and the Z33's. Member Donzigo is our resident expert on the Z era boats. He completely rebuilt a 25, and currently owns a 33. I'm sure they were all constructed similarly, since they came down the same production line. I think it's a beautiful boat. I thought the 460 King Cobra's were 360 horses.:confused:

[joel3078]

Hey Travisgoff, pay attention to this one. I looked at www.boattrader.com and there is few 30' black widows for sale. The yellow one in Georgia shure looks the nicest. Now here is the important part. There are no pictures of the outdrives in the add. Make sure your yellow one has KING cobra outdrives and not the plain jain cobra outdrives. The real king units have a hump on the top of them that is about 3 inches tall. Some of the 30' black widows had just a regular cobra drive and are not as good/heavy duty. Alos be aware that there are some flat top drives that are labeled king cobra. You want a king cobra with a hump on the top. Looks very much like a current day Volvo Penta SX drive.

To see the hump I am talking about, look at the 2 pics about 3/4 way down in this thread.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45308

[Schnook]

Near the end of the season last year a guy showed up with one of those, same color and all. Let me tell you, you'll have no problem getting noticed, it's an impressive sight on the water. A survey is a must. It'll provide peace of mind and maybe a little bargaining power depending on what they find.

[travisgoff]

Thanks for all the information guys, I am not that concerned with speed as I am sure I can squeeze more hp if needed, I used to twist wrenches back in high school and worked as a mechanic as an afterschool job for a while. I will be interested in making sure I got the right props on there should I buy though, and I will prob need help with that.

Thanks for all the pictures, I like being educated. Its nice to know what to look for on the drives and what the parts are called.

I think the one in Georgia that you guys saw in the boattrader is probably the one I am looking at as well.

I can't wait to go test it, and if I get it, April is a LONG ways away to dewinterize and start using, but if the weather stays like this, I might be cruising around on Easter. Anyone ever pull a skier with one of these?!?

[jdsdls]

I also think that the motors will be a ford 460 versus a 454 big block.

[The Hedgehog]

Thanks for all the information guys, I am not that concerned with speed as I am sure I can squeeze more hp if needed, I used to twist wrenches back in high school and worked as a mechanic as an afterschool job for a while. I will be interested in making sure I got the right props on there should I buy though, and I will prob need help with that.
Thanks for all the pictures, I like being educated. Its nice to know what to look for on the drives and what the parts are called.
I think the one in Georgia that you guys saw in the boattrader is probably the one I am looking at as well.
I can't wait to go test it, and if I get it, April is a LONG ways away to dewinterize and start using, but if the weather stays like this, I might be cruising around on Easter. Anyone ever pull a skier with one of these?!?


I think it would make a great ski boat! You could drop the tabs and it would provide a nice wake for launching a wake board:eek!: Tex pulls tubers with his ZX. :yes: They get a nice horrified look on their face at 70 then they need some:toiletpap

I think that some of the Cobra's had 454's. That would be a little better given the availability for marine parts. Not that you could not do anything to a a 460.

[Donzigo]

Well, it's Tuesday and you are probably already a new Donzi owner. But, if I can offer something, you could throw me a call and I will try to help, if you want to know more. I think the Donzi crew has given some good advice. I agree with Ranman that you should think in terms or 50 - 60 MPH. I don't know the Ford powerplants too well. I've herad that the King Cobra is a better drive than the Cobra. There is a thread from long ago that really gives a good explanation of the Cobra system. I would say that you must be looking at the nicest 30' Black Widow around. It looks great. This design was the last coming from the Genth era. OMC had purchased the company and decided to change some of the specifications; so, tha's a concern, and yes, stringers and fuel tanks are always an issue on the older boats. It all depends on the price you pay, your ability and desire to deal with risk, and ability to remodel the vessel in the future. If you are thinking that you'll go down and pick up a great buy and come back and ski for the summer without problems, I'd say that's wishful thinking.

Good luck, it's a different look, for sure.

Richard Aaron 727-709-2918 - cell 727-867-7020 - office

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Welcome Travisgoff:wavey: ! Definitely looks like a sharp ride. from the looks of the transom in the one pic, it looks to me as though it is the early style flat-top King Cobra as opposed the style that Joel is talking about with the hump like we have.

If I remember correctly (scary thought), your stock engine option on the 30' was twin 350's, then optional were the twin 460's (330 hp) and twin 454's (375 hp). Although I have never seen a small block in a 24' or a 30', the single 350 was the standard motor offered in the 24'.

Good luck and keep in touch!

tom

[travisgoff]

I drove down Tues morning around 3am and got there about 2pm. Survey checked and we took it out on the lake, but like a dumb%$$ I didn't bring anything warm. (In my defense, it was 78 degrees up here when I left, so I figured GA would be as warm or warmer). Turned out that this ice front was just starting to roll through and we got there just in time to appreciate it on the lake.

There was a little chop and the boat handled it great, everything seemed to be functioning except for a few glitches here and there, (starboard tach sticks, trim gauges seem to be backwards or funky, stereo doesn't power on, and a couple of the original toggles were not working, but they fixed those before I left, they just don't match).

I went ahead and got the boat, it might have been a little pricey but I think its more of whether you like what you pay for then what some price guide tells you its worth. I have to say, it would have been way worth it to have them deliver it , they offered to do it for $500 but I figured since I was driving down there anyway....

I really regret this whole train of thought. I will probably be having nightmares of semi's tagging my boat and jackknifing me into them or off some damn bridge for a few years to come. I swore I hit some kind of truck convoy on 85N, I can't think of a 5 min stretch where I wasn't fighting the air currents of a semi trying to run me off the road or suck me underneath them. My fingers, neck, and back still hurt from gripping the steering wheel so tight. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that this lady is FAT compared to anything else I have EVER trailered (or most of the other boats I was looking at). There couldn't have been more than 2ft on each side of me when I had it centered, couple that with Jersey walls for construction, bridges without ANY shoulder, or a cheap ass road construction that just gives you a 5in lip of asphalt with nothing but dropoff, and a boatload of semi's trying to stay awake and in their own lane, (not successfully I might add), and trying to do 85mph so they can pass you...and I am pretty gratefull that my boat and more importantly, I, made it back here unharmed.

So far as the boat goes, it does have 460's, but they don't have the king cobra drives, it has the plain flat top cobras. I was able to get 55 gps, but I didn't have it rapped out and I definately didn't know what I was doing with the trim and tabs, I don't think it has too much more in it though. All I can say it that it was damn cold that I couldn't see straight and the water coming from my eyes was freezing on the side of my face...not to mention it looked like I was boiling water behind the boat.

Anyway, I am a Donzi owner now, and my friend who went with me is now looking at 24' Donzi Black Widows because he liked it so much. I am now in the "wishfull thinking" phase that Donzigo described and hoping to not have any major issues this summer. Lets just hope my luck holds out for a while.

Are any of you guys around the VA area? I wouldn't mind meeting up and chatting with you out on the water. I am thinking I might be able to set it in the water around the 1st of March if the weather holds.

Thanks for all the input.

[The Hedgehog]

Congrads on the purchase!

You really stepped up to the plate and got a nice sized boat. It has its ups and downs. I remember coming home with the 27 and thinking oh #$@3it, what have I got myself into. Now I think back and realize that the ups far exceed the downs. The big old 27 is not big at all. At times I want more (although I don't really need more). You here people say that the happiest times of boat ownership are the time you buy a boat and the time you sell a boat. I think that they were never meant to own a boat. I love having one period.

You have a nice looking boat that you can enjoy as is or spend countless hours like a bunch of us tricking it out. Enjoy your new purchase

[joel3078]

Congrats Travis! That's exactly how my ride went from Ohio back to Minnesota. We took a nap in the cuddy cabin at a rest stop just for the hell of it and to put another notch in the belt of goofy things we have done.

You should anyday be getting a cd-rom disk with pics and movies on it. Enjoy!

I found an old master mechanic that works on OMC & King cobra drives. Had the outdrive seals, bellows, gaskets, etc. redone last fall and also did a compression check. 150 or 155# in all 8 cylinders. The mechanic couldn't believe how good a shape the boat is in for 17 years old. He told me to keep the boat and I agreed. I just told the broker that was trying to sell my 24' widow that it is no longer for sale. The adds are already dissapearing. May as well enjoy the boat cause you can NEVER get back the dollars you put into them. BOAT = break out another thousand. It's strictly an entertainment fee in my book. But the pride of ownership is priceless!

[Donzigo]

KUDOs...........you seem to have made a good purchase. Throw any of us a call, if we can assist with the 1001 things you will face. It's amazing how much and how detailed this group can be with a solution. There are so many good techichians here on the board. You will no doubt figure out who gives the sound advice; and, who gives "arm chair opinions"...........it's all good.

Good luck.