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jeddski
12-30-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm looking for info on what others have done to tune up their 496 HO's.

We have a 27ZR with the 496HO and are looking to upgrade the power. We used to run a Procharged 454 22zx.

Currently I'm thinking of the following:
CMI Sport Tubes
Whipple Charger (light boost 3-5lbs)
Internal engine upgrades to keep everything in one peice
(not really sure what would be required at this point)

I'm sure there are 1000's of different opinions out there on what to do, but I'm curious to see what everyone would recommend and what our options are. I'd really like to build the engine up to a reliable 650-700hp. That should liven up the 27ZR enough....:yes:

22zxla
12-30-2006, 11:36 AM
Have no knowledge on your upgrades ,but a few questions for you. How do you like the 27zr and how fast is stock anyway? Also how did the 454 in 22zx hold up with supercharge? Good luck!

BUIZILLA
12-30-2006, 11:49 AM
CMI Sport Tubes
Whipple Charger (light boost 3-5lbs)add a shortie and the above and you'll be VERY happy with the results, I think.

JH

jeddski
12-30-2006, 12:16 PM
22zxla,
We couldnt be happier with the 27ZR. The boat handles beautifully and the ride is great when it gets rough out. Completely stock the boat is running 70mph and might do 72mph with a different prop.

The Procharged 454 mag 22ZX worked great. Typhoon did all of the work on it and we were actually the 2nd owner. The boat would run 82-83mph which could be interesting at times. We sold the boat a few years ago and i heard that the engine finally let go at over 450 hours... (due to lack of oil not the supercharger)

We're looking to do the same thing to the 27ZR. I think that the hull is more than capable of 85-90 and would be comfortable at those speeds.


BUILIZZA,
any idea of what it would cost to add a shortie drive? What could we sell the current Bravo for? Any ideas for internal mods that would be needed to keep the 496 together?

BUIZILLA
12-30-2006, 12:31 PM
no idea on cost or value, but *I* would do the exhaust first, drive second, and go from there...

JH

LKSD
12-30-2006, 12:39 PM
For the engines internals the best route to go if you want to run normal boost would be to upgrade the pistons & valves. Anything beyond that would be Icing on the cake as far as heads, rods, etc..

As far as the shorty Imco has a lower that you can swap out toinstead of replacing the whole drive. If you are going to beat on it though & run a supercharger then going to a full Imco xr shorty drive wouldnt hurt either but it will cost a wee bit more..

Feel free to give me a call if you want to discuss or look into any of this further.. :) :)

Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628



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LKSD
12-30-2006, 12:41 PM
Btw: I am probably going to be doing some of the same mods that you are thinking of to my new ZX that has the same engine.. I just want to run it this summer first before making the big mods.. :) Jamie / Lakside..


.

LKSD
12-30-2006, 02:38 PM
Thats true. He should also be able to upfit his internals.. Actually the 27zr should already have the Hydraulic steering on it standard.. :)

I wish I had some more time to get down to FL with the new boat this winter.. :) Jamie

jeddski
12-30-2006, 04:59 PM
The boat was spec'd with with hyd. steering and tabs when we ordered it thinking ahead to these power upgrades.
So far it looks like my Winter wish list includes:
Drive: - upgrade the upper to the XR gearset
- swap lower internals into an IMCO Lower unit case
Engine: Whipple Charger or Procharger running 5-6lbs boost
Pistons, valves
CMI Sport Tubes
Heads, rods (possibly)
Anyone using a blower from The Blower Shop?
I was noticing online that there are some great prices on Blower Shop superchargers as well as on Prochargers. I would really like to set the boat up right and be making around 700hp but have been having trouble figuring out the best route to go and where to buy parts from.

yeller
12-30-2006, 06:07 PM
If you're planning on 5~6lbs, I'd move the rods from your 'possibly' list to definate. Not positive, but I'm pretty sure you'll have to upgrade your fuel system/injectors and reprogram the ECU for that boost. You could always start with the 3 1/2lb system and then swap out the pulley and upgrade the internals at a later date.

LKSD
12-30-2006, 06:14 PM
I can hook you up with the parts & we can also do the install if you need. As far as the current easiest way to go the Whipple set up would be it. The current kit for the new 496's has the upgraded fuel system you will need with it, Also they will reprogram or give you a new ecm in the price of the kit.. The procharger stuff becomes very custom after 2003/2004 model years. Let me know if I can be of help to you or if you have more questions. :) Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628

LKSD
12-30-2006, 06:21 PM
BTW: Food for thought..

I was talking with another place that we are dealers for that is quite famous and is from the "west coast" .. Im not naming namers, but some of thier stuff is now a Donzi factory option on bigger Zr hulls. We figured that there is currently about 8-12 Whipples out there on the newer 496's (05 & newer) running 3-4psi of boost with no issues or negative feed back.. That by the way is on bone stock internals (stock pistons, rods & valves).. Therefore one could go the route of trying to just add the Whipple without doing internal mods on low boost applications. I personally would budget in some money for better pistons, valves & rods in the future for a rebuild at some point though.. But at least if you want a mild shot in the arm without going crazy & dropping huge money all at once that may doi it.. But just make sure you understand the potential drawbacks to running a unit like that.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

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jeddski
12-31-2006, 10:06 AM
Thanks all for the comments. It is interesting to hear that the factory is offering a blown version on the larger ZR's. If we go ahead and add a blower I'd rather change out the internals and build the engine up all at once so I'm not always wondering how long its going to hold together.
I wasn't aware that the Whipple setup included all of the required computer/fuel modifications in the same kit. There had to be some reason for the HUGE price difference in superchargers...
From what I've seen or heard it looks like the Procharger or Whipple are the only two options out there. Anyone have experience with some of the other brands?
As far as Pistons, Rods, and Valves go can anyone recommend certain companies for these parts? I am really looking for ballpark pricing on these parts so I have an idea of what we're looking at here.
So far I've been able to piece together approximate prices for the Whipple, IMCO lower casing (to swap internals into), and Bravo XR gears. Once I have some actual numbers to think about we can begin to plan out our winter mod plans....
If I can keep to the budget my dream is for a 700hp / 90mph end result. Think that is within reason? :bonk:

BUIZILLA
12-31-2006, 10:26 AM
your NOT going to make 700hp out of a 496 on 7# of boost... :boggled:

jeddski
12-31-2006, 11:56 AM
Guess I was looking at the Whipple dyno chart backwards:

720ft/lbs and 650hp

Theoretically I'd like to be in the 650+/- range. Is this not obtainable with the current list of upgrades?

Madpoodle:
I was looking at http://www.cpperformance.com/products/Outdrives/bravo-gears.htm
Not sure if this is the correct setup but good at least for a price reference.

BUIZILLA
12-31-2006, 12:13 PM
720ft/lbs and 650hp Theoretically I'd like to be in the 650+/- range. Is this not obtainable with the current list of upgrades?that's 1.55hp/ci......that's a HUGE expectation without a new crank, rods, valves yada yada upgrades, and you can forget common pump gas...... your talking minimum 15k-20k w/external steering, blower, engine mod's, exhaust, and drive stuff and then having to carry your race fuel drums with you everywhere you go... for that coin you could find a 700sc takeout and sell yours to recoup $$ and be done with it. Realistically, your talking 550-570 max at 5#'s boost.... BTW, what's the budget, that would better help us gearheads here...

JH

yeller
12-31-2006, 01:36 PM
As far as Pistons, Rods, and Valves go can anyone recommend certain companies for these parts? As far as I know, Raylar is the only company that offers forged internals for the 496. www.raylarengine.com/index.html Rods aren't listed on the site for some reason, but they do have them.
Considering the # of 496's out there, there has been very little in the way of aftermarket equipment.

yeller
12-31-2006, 01:46 PM
Realistically, your talking 550-570 max at 5#'s boostBuizilla, are you saying prochargers claim of 580hp on the HO w/3.5lbs is way overstated? If you only get 550~570 @ 5lbs, that'd make the 3.5lb system about what....500~510?

BigGrizzly
12-31-2006, 03:08 PM
I don't know what your budget is, but 700 hp without good heads and pistons and rods is a dream. Its hard enough to do it on a 502 with all the stuff available. A 496 has small everything valves rods oh yes heat exchanger. Merc made them smaller after 01 or 02.

jeddski
12-31-2006, 03:31 PM
I was looking at Whipples site for the 650hp
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1149
They show 625-650hp (at the redline) on a stock 496 HO with 5.5lbs of boost.

This is the route that I'd like to go, but I would like to beef up the internals so that the engine will hold together for a while. I was thinking that if some additional internal upgrades were made while the engine was apart, that 650hp should be obtainable if they are already claiming that much on a stock engine?

For the budget I'm still trying to get an idea of the basic ballpark for the different tuning options.
Engine:
$4-5k for the CMI's
$7.5k for a Whipple
$1.2k Raylar Pistons+valves/springs
$??? heads, rods
It looks like a fully blown engine would be $15k+/-. :eek!:
(this stuff adds up fast... and I still need to factor in LABOR)

Drive (maybe wait until next year since we'll baby it anyway?):
$600-1,300 upgraded XR gears
$2k IMCO lower unit casing

The boat already has a fully hydraulic external steering.

Does this seem right? Am I missing something or is there another route that I should be looking at? From what I have seen on this board and others it seems that a lot of 496 owners out there are trying to figure out what options are availavle for tuning mods.

LKSD
12-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Raylar has a 4340 crank.. We also sell & can install their products.. By the time you get into the vavles you may want to consider a set of thier big power heads. They also have rod kits if you want to go balls out.. Their products can complement a blower motor nicely. Or you can use them to mildy upgrade & stay NA..

Im just guessing out loud, but you could easily drop 15-20K by the time you are are done & get it all in place.. It goes quick by the time you drop in the $ for a blower, rods, pistons, heads/valves, exhaust, drive parts & dont forget the labor for who ever installs it.. :) Jamie / Lakeside


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BUIZILLA
12-31-2006, 05:26 PM
Buizilla, are you saying prochargers claim of 580hp on the HO w/3.5lbs is way overstated? If you only get 550~570 @ 5lbs, that'd make the 3.5lb system about what....500~510?I'm not going to say it's overstated, but i'd want to see this for myself to believe it on a STOCK engine, otherwise I just won't be convinced, no matter who tells me that... that's better than 44hp per # of manifold increase , which seems extreme to me...
to me, 5-6% per # is about tops on a given cubic inch STOCK setup. I think Whipple is dead right on the money for expectation level.

JH

gold-n-rod
12-31-2006, 07:18 PM
Hmmm..... stock top speed is +/- 75 and you want to get to 90? That's a 15 mph increase. People are saying $15-20K to get there.

That's $1K (or more) per mph. We talked about this weeks ago and many thought my equation of $1K=1mph was full of spit.

Guess maybe it is when you are going from 45 to 60, but it seems pretty spot on when you are going from 75 to 90.

Get out your wallet. How fast do you want to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bonk:

Welcome to the disease!

BigGrizzly
01-01-2007, 11:02 AM
Look at the boost numbers that Wipple is using. 6.2 psi, this makes the number realistic, but I think inflated. Fact is the 496 wasn't designed for this application, it has small everything heads valves rods etc, this is why its taking so long for parts. Remember 454/502 block configuration has been around over 20 years. I remember the PAW 510 Gorilla engines in the early 1980's. As for the $15,000 price tag, well when I see $11,000 complete engines available, I wonder, how! I know how much to build my engine from scratch and It can't be done for $15,000. Reliable horse power isn't cheap! If it were me I would pull the engine and park it. Get a complete package and bolt it in. Jed, where you are located , I would hate to go our Manasquan, Barnegate, or Atlantic city inlets ans have a motor stop. Been there and done that-no fun at all. It is easy to reach for the Moon, but ti grab it is another story. I would aim for what your old 22 would do and be happy.

jeddski
01-01-2007, 11:51 AM
BigGrizzly,
Seems like good advice, I really wouldnt want to have an issue running through our inlet! So in your opinion would you make minor tuning changes to the 496 and leave it at that? This is the sort of advice I was after. The old "if you were in my shoes what would you do".

The old 22 would break 80, which we may be able to get close to with the correct prop, CMI's, and a few Raylar add ons.

If you were to go after a complete drop in package where would you look? I really wanted to order the boat from Donzi with a Teague engine but wasn't able to do it.

BUIZILLA
01-01-2007, 12:10 PM
while I am a supreme Whipple fan, I don't understand their dyno graph reasoning.... they use a very low water temp around 129*, and a tad high BSFC tune in the .600+ range... this may be to inhibit detonation.... who knows.... real world says the HO engine, being closed cooling, runs about 175-180*.... I would like to see a real world pull with the AFR higher, and the BSFC lower, water temp more normal, this makes it more in line with a Sunday romp.... it's pretty obvious that that pull reference is pretty fat for some reason.

JH

BigGrizzly
01-01-2007, 02:15 PM
Jim Wipples kit gets rid of the t-stat and tells you not to use one. The graph to me is too play by the numbers and just seems too pat. My son has one his 7.4 and it not that even. One thing I will say is its a well engineered piece and good looking too. I run mine at 170 deg for your reasoning. I don't run hotter because of possible detonation, with unforeseen issues. Jed That is exactly what I am saying. Plus the exhaust you will need anyway. The other thing is in a year more and better mods will be available as well as props! l

jeddski
01-01-2007, 10:46 PM
BigGrizzly,
Any particular Raylar add-ons that you would recommend?

It makes sense to build up in stages especially if more parts are expected to be available in the next year or so. It would be great to do some tuning up this year that would work well in the future if we eventually added a Whipple.

No matter what we do I'd really like the boat to be at least in the low/mid 80's if possible. Something about selling an 80mph boat to go spend 3x more on a 70mph boat...?

Reading on Raylars site there is an article about blown 496's. It is still hard to resist dropping a Whipple in and seeing what the boat can really do!

LKSD
01-01-2007, 11:27 PM
Jed,
If it were me & you didnt want to waste $$, but you wanted to do some stuff in stages.. Then It would make sense to star with the heads first. OR do the heads & internals like the pistons (you may want to consider a 4340 crank & some upgraded rods too while at it).. This would give you a little bit of an edge & get you pointed in the right direction for running a blower with 5-6 psi or more later.. JMO.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
01-02-2007, 08:08 AM
Poodle, I believe he (jed) already has this boat.. I almost just ordered a 525 in the 27zr.. It would add about 20 to almost 40k depending on who you talked to.. If you want the warranty & lack of aggrevation to set up it is probably worth the $$.. Thats one of the reasons I looked into it.. I would have probably gone that route had we not found the new 26zx leftover...

A Freindly question... Did I miss something accidentally or is the last post in reference to Air22's Questions in the Procharger post?? :)
AIR, this is a boat being ordered? Just spend the bucks, go HP525 WITH the raised Shelby X


:) Jamie / Lakeside

BigGrizzly
01-02-2007, 09:37 AM
Poodle Jed bought the boat already. I think from Frank. Jed for the record a 496 has small ports, small rods and small everything. It was designed to push heavier boats around with some fuel economy and long life span and built cheaper than a 502 to build. This doesn't mean weak nor do I mean it can't be made to be a good performer. Remember the 396/454 was pretty pour at its introduction( by todays standards). Wow 396 with 425 ponies, there are at least 10 small blocks on the board with that. Now back to the original question. To set your mind at ease. You can now run 70 in this boat where the old 22ZX would be miserable at the same speed. The old boat didn't get fast over night. I remember it well. You have a good platform take it easy and do it right. Do the things first that you know you will need later,ie, Exhaust first(get the heat out of the engine). Do not put heads on without doing the bottom end. The stock heads keep the engine potential down to a safe level. I have heard that stock 496 do pretty well with low boost. Now the shortie issue. Some hulls work well with the shortie, like the Classic 22. Some do not get any substantial speed increase. The shortie gets between 2 and 10 mph increase, wide range. I don't honestly know how it would work on the 27ZR. I am including handling into the ZR equation also. The nice thing about the IMCO is you can lower the X if needed with kits. the higher the X the less trim is available and the slower the hole shot on a step hull. This is a long answer but I don't want any misunderstanding. You have a beautiful boat don't do it JV (junior varsity) .

jeddski
01-02-2007, 09:54 AM
BigGrizzly,
Thanks again! I knew asking for advice here would get me the information that I was looking for. We obviously want to add more power and increase the speed but DO NOT want to negatively affect the boat.

The 22zx was a work of art and we want to replicate that effort on this 27.

It’s interesting to hear the opinions on the IMCO shorty drive. I'd like to hear if the factory has tried anything like this on their ZR's. Again we don’t want to sacrifice performance and handling for pure straight line speed.


Seems like the consensus is to build up the bottom end and internals, add the exhaust, and either add a Whipple or do it in the future. Beef up the gears and do more research on the IMCO short housing.

LKSD
01-02-2007, 09:56 AM
I agree with Griz.. If you are going to do it do it right.. It usually works out better overall that way anyhow.. JMO, But I dont really agree that the head swap alone would cause lower engine failure on that engine.. The raylar heads will just breathe better & tolerate more over the stock ones.. Other than that Griz & I would be thinking fairly similarly.. :) Jamie

LKSD
01-02-2007, 09:59 AM
As far as the shorty, I dont really personally know what to expect on that hull.. I dont think it would hurt, but I dont believe it will give you anything major speedwise at this point. It's already a fast hull.. I think power is the biggest need.. I would go Imco if you do try it because like mentioned earlier you could shim it down again if you need to.. :) Jamie

Pismo
01-02-2007, 06:29 PM
Get a 502/540 with forged internals already, then hit it hard with heads, exhaust, blower. Sell the 496 to pay for some. Copy a 600/700Sc.

LKSD
01-02-2007, 07:15 PM
As I Recall :) :) :) :)

:bonk: :bonk: Sorry.. I thought you meant AIR22... lol... :bonk: :bonk: I learn somethin' new every day.. :D
Jamie

BUIZILLA
01-02-2007, 07:50 PM
have we accomplashed ANYTHING here yet ??

LKSD
01-02-2007, 08:13 PM
have we accomplashed ANYTHING here yet ??

I believe mass confusion has been acomplished.. lol:jestera: :jestera: :banghead: :spit: :beer: :outtahere

LKSD
01-02-2007, 08:40 PM
I'm not confused, but then again, I'm not "under pressure" :D :D :D

Me either..:)

I meant that maybe we all collectivley may have flooded Jedski with to much info.. :jestera: :uzi: :D

BigGrizzly
01-03-2007, 07:53 AM
Its Ok both Jed and AIR know who we are talking about in which post. AIR is Pro charger only and Jed is 496 and Wipple, later

jeddski
01-03-2007, 08:02 AM
Haha No I think we can say "Mission Accomplished"...

I'm going to look into the following upgrades:
CMI Sport Tubes
Raylar Pistons
Raylar 4340 Crank
Raylar Heads
Raylar Valves, springs, rods

The idea being that we can build up the engine, get some extra power, and if we decide to add the Whipple the engine internals will be what they should be.

Possible upgrades:
Raylar Supercharger camshaft (possibly)
Whipple Supercharger (5-6lbs boost)

And for the drive:
XR gears

And I'll try and find more information on how the IMCO lower casing would affect the ZR hull if we moved the gears into a new housing.

My thoughts now are to go full blown and put on all of the parts... maybe this will change after I add everything up... I'll keep everyone posted once we decide where to go from here.

As in interesting side note, Whipple said that they recommend using their standard kit on the stock 496 HO engine without any internal mods! The guy there said that forged internals would be icing on the cake but not needed...
I think that personally I'd like the extra measure of safety so that hopefully it will all hold together.

RickSE
01-03-2007, 10:53 AM
:frown: You know what sucks is the fact that the 496 is now a dead motor. GM is no longer putting the 496 into their 2500/3500 HD trucks only the larger tonnage Kodiak trucks. To me this means that there will be no further development of the 496 by GM and probably also Merc. Merc. will probably continue their HP focus on the 502 based motors while GM will focus on larger LS (small block) motors which sucks because you have to rev the crap out of an LS to get HP.

I was hoping at some point we'd see a production line aluminum headed 496 from GM but I believe the chance of this happening now has gone to zero.

The BBC is now dead as far as GM is considered. :( :confused: :banghead: It's all up to the aftermarket guys now to keep it alive, Merlin, Motown, Dart, GMPP, Raylar & Merc.

BUIZILLA
01-03-2007, 11:03 AM
I would agree with Rick about the 8.1, it's a fantastic engine that has had unparralled success in light duty trucks and boats. It's my all time favorite BB Chevy engine. Also, I agree thats it's sad GM killed it in favor of the anemic 6.0.... everyone I know that has/had a 8.1 in a truck/suv/boat raves about it, except the mileage... a coil on plug BB is where it's at... and it's still better than the Gen VI 454 EVER was...

JH

RickSE
01-03-2007, 11:18 AM
I have a 496 in my 2001 HD Chevy mated to a ZF 6-speed manual. Great gas mileage and it pulls like a champ.

Wasn't their a 27ZR on line a while ago with a spacer in the drive? I may be wrong but I got the impression from this boat that Donzi tried running a higher X-dim and it didn't work so they spaced the drive back down. Seems like running a higher X-dim or a shortie drive on a step bottom boat could be tricky with all the aeration under the hull. More blades should help though.

jeddski
01-03-2007, 12:20 PM
I wonder what the outcome would be on a ZR with the shorty drive? Is there anyway of finding out if Donzi has tried this?

Could start to get real expensive when you begin talking about new drives, and 5 or 6 bladed props...

This sounds like a mod. that someone else should try and let us all know how it works out.. :wink:

The Hedgehog
01-03-2007, 12:29 PM
I wonder what the outcome would be on a ZR with the shorty drive? Is there anyway of finding out if Donzi has tried this?
Could start to get real expensive when you begin talking about new drives, and 5 or 6 bladed props...
This sounds like a mod. that someone else should try and let us all know how it works out.. :wink:

I was wondering how long it was going to take someone to chime in on this. The instant 5mph from a shorty is more of a rule on older boats. Somewhere around 98-99 they started dialing them in shorter and faster.

That does not mean you should not try it, but I would not necessarily throw $2-$3 K at a shorty without knowing.

That being said, I am trying one on my 27ZX this weekend. It is an older boat and a non-step design. I am told it needs a lower drive to carry the bow. We shall see.

Pismo
01-03-2007, 02:38 PM
I agree, a shorty/high x does not automatically equal improved top speed. Sometimes less leverage to lift bow=More wetted surface=less speed.

Donziweasel
01-03-2007, 03:28 PM
I wonder if someone asked about Mods for engines sizes 289-525 if this site has enough space to list them all:bonk: :bonk: :bonk: . 4 pages on just the 496. You are a very knowledgable group of people with some great ideas. Still the best site I have seen for engine mod info and my 350 is a great example. :)

BigGrizzly
01-03-2007, 04:15 PM
As for the 5 blades. we will have them, been testing all summer. They do have an aeration problem on the 38 with short X drive, but not too bad.

yeller
01-04-2007, 08:58 PM
I'm going to look into the following upgrades:
CMI Sport Tubes
Raylar Pistons
Raylar 4340 Crank
Raylar Heads
Raylar Valves, springs, rodsYou say valves, springs, rods......I assume you mean pushrods. What about the connecting rods? Are you planning on using their replacement forged piston or are you going for their blower piston?

BigGrizzly....you said there'll be more parts available for the 496 in a year. Was this just a comment that there is new parts every year, or do you know of specific stuff in the works?

This is a good post. I'll probably tear down my 496 next winter and install the forged goodies. So far, it looks like Raylar or nothing.

jeddski
01-04-2007, 09:16 PM
After a lot of recent phone calls based on in info gained from this forum I've come up with the following...

I spoke with Ray (or Raylar) and he recommended the following parts:
Raylar Pistons/Rods (i was assuming con. rods)
Raylar 5056 Forged Crank (up to the task of the blower motor but a little less in price than the 4340)
Raylar Supercharger Cam
Raylar bearings / Raylar oil pump/ Raylar Billet Timing as icing on the cake

Future upgrades could include Raylar heads, valves/springs


All of the information I have seen from suppliers and Whipple's own people say that you can up the supercharger kit on a stock engine.

After talking with Ray @ Raylar, Dustin @ Whipple, and the guys @ CMI it is interesting to hear that the Sport Tubes may not be needed for a blower motor. They all seemed to think using the E-Top headers would be better as they are less expensive. The Sport Tubes really work well for a NA motor but the scavenging effects are less of an issue when you're simply trying to force as much fuel/air through the engine. The only issue with the 496 and the E-tops is relocating all of the accessories since the relocation kit comes only with the Sport Tubes.

With these upgrades the consensus is that engine would produce approx:
700 to 725 hp at 6lbs of boost
800+ hp at 7-8 lbs of boost…!

yeller
01-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Do you plan on using Raylars blower piston or the stock replacement.?

Make sure you keep us up to date on this. I'm extremely interested in your project as I have a 496 with the 3.5lb procharger and would like to increase the boost in the future.

jeddski
01-05-2007, 07:56 AM
Yeller..
(this is going to sound stupid but...)
I'm not sure which pistons they were, I spoke with Ray and told him what the application would be and he said they had a kit we could use and gave me a price.

I will keep everyone posted once we make a decision on which upgrades we are going to make and then again in the summer once we get to the testing.

I would really like to do the whole thing and put the Whipple on there but I have a feeling that this is all really going to add up fast....

BigGrizzly
01-05-2007, 10:02 AM
As for the CMI you probably talked to Randy Lieter, and he is correct on the scavenging of the blower motor and the E-Tops, He is also interested in saving you money- novel though isn't it. We have done a lot of dyno work on this subject and found on a 900+ HP engine its only 20 hp and almost the same torque difference between the two on a blower motor. I used split tops(sport tubs bolted in the middle) because my engine was built and dynoed with tube hedders, also for the OH WOW effect. Also I could go a 572 NA 89 octane engine in the far distant future. They were assuming forged pistons and con rods for the blower. the push rods are up to the task. When head are installed than maybe different length push rods may be in order for geometry reasons. As for the crank I don't know what the price difference is, but if its less than $300 I might go for it too. Raylar wouldn't sell a weak part because it would bite them in the end. Example of strength, the stock HP500 crank will stand 850 Hp without a hiccup. Yeller I know of at four companies that are working on this stuff. Raylar is designing a package. My own, if it were me, thoughts are with which supercharger to use. In my own family we are using all three types. I have a Procharger on the Criterion, my oldest son has a Wipple on his 22ZX, and he has used a Vortex on his race Mustang and his Mustang street car. Non have given us any trouble except for Dustin Wipple himself. The guy has an attitude after you buy the unit and something isn't right, in our case, like the ECM mapping. The late Steve Simon from Donzi had a similar issue. Long story and not for this post. The Wipple look great and is clean. The Procharger more efficiency then either Vortex or Wipple. The Vortex has an after cooler(inner cooler after the blower) that is totally rebuild able. Both centrifugal types run cooler then Wipple,coolers take care of most if not all the problem,. Garry and I discuss this topic all the time. Then he could make a desk fan work as a supercharger LOL. In summation any of the above will work well, so the choice is yours.

jeddski
01-05-2007, 10:15 AM
I think it is great when suppliers/manufactures themselves try and save you money(a novel idea right?!). Nothing says more for a company then when they are willing to sell you exactly what you need even if it costs less. My type of company.

There are two main reasons that I'm interested in the Whipple charger over the other options.
1) it is sold as a kit with the proper ECM changes and other hardware needed
2) I really like the look of a polished screw-type blower sitting on top of the engine (next to polished headers what a nice site!)

Thanks to this forum and the information gained for the manufacturers I now know what it is that we would like to do. The only thing left now is to figure out the price and make our decision...

Basically-
Raylar Forged internals and CMI E-Top Headers
Whipple Supercharger

The question is to do it all at once or the 1st part this year and the whipple next year.

yeller
01-05-2007, 10:51 AM
The question is to do it all at once or the 1st part this year and the whipple next year.Do it all at once. I can't wait another year. :wink: :biggrin.:

RickSE
01-05-2007, 11:48 AM
Grizz or anyone else,

On EFI systems, what about the fact that the Whipple replaces 8 in-runner fuel injectors with I believe 2 injectors in the new throttle body? I've never been a big fan of this method, seems like a lot of work for 2 injectors.

On the Whipple you have to replace the injectors because the intercooler mounts in place of the factory intake manifold and injector mounts. Since the new injectors are upstream from the blower the air/fuel mixture is being compressed together then run through the intercooler.

On the Centrifugal set up the air is compressed, cooled then the fuel is injected in the runners correct? I'd think the fuel from the injectors would also add some cooling aspects to the air fuel mixture in this case, assuming the fuel is cooled.

jeddski
01-05-2007, 11:58 AM
Yeller,

I'm with you, I really would like to go all out and see what the boat is capable of!

But I may have to start charging people for rides next summer to pay for all of the upgrades...

BigGrizzly
01-05-2007, 07:23 PM
Jed your reasoning is good you can't take away from the looks of the polished Wipple and CMI to boot. When I first brought the CMI on my Corsican(18 foot), my wife said they were pretty enough to hang on the wall of the Den. Rick Wipple is creating a suck through system and is easier to atomize and control with the ECU mapping. Since these engines don't have a O2 sensor to control the ECU. The ECU in the merc doesn't know how to meter the fuel because of what the exhaust says, so in reality that system is no better than a carb system, except it has a knock system, which can actually be added to a carb system. As for it being a lot of work for the injectors, not really, it works pretty well. In fact on my sons 5.0 stang with 14 psi of boost and 600HP we put 3 additional injectors on a bloc at the throttle body Thats a total of 11 injectors and it ran great. I'm sure Buzz could explain it better because injectors are his business.

jeddski
01-05-2007, 08:40 PM
BigGrizzly,
A lot of the advice that I have been given was about adding a bung in the E-Top headers for an O2 sensor. If a sensor is added will the reprogrammed ECU be able to take advantage of the added O2 sensor input?
Or is this added only for testing/tuning purposes on the Dyno?

LKSD
01-05-2007, 11:51 PM
BigGrizzly,
A lot of the advice that I have been given was about adding a bung in the E-Top headers for an O2 sensor. If a sensor is added will the reprogrammed ECU be able to take advantage of the added O2 sensor input?
Or is this added only for testing/tuning purposes on the Dyno?

Jed, The only ones that can reflash the stock ecm on your 496 currently is whipple. The 02 in the elbow is a good idea if you were running a different type of ecu, like a custom one..

A colleague & I are talking about releasing a dyno proven set up for the 496 if all works out & continues to go well.. It's just been slow going on the 496 stuff mainly because 1 it is expensive R&D, and 2 the stuff is fairly new compared to 454/504/509/540 stuff..

The current plan is a custom & programable (tuneable) ecu that will use all of the factory stock sensors and possibly allow for the addition of 1 or more o2 sensors. The current intention is for it to be mainly used for supercharged (procharged) 496s to provide a better easier set up in conjunction with a new upgraded fuel system. This will be especially good on the newer 496's. :) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
01-06-2007, 08:14 AM
I thought AZ speed could also remap the ECU's??
On those lines: for those who only want mild increases, can the ECU be remapped to help there??

Poodle,
They can do all of the mefi stuff that can be done. The Motorolla pcm 555 stuff that is made by mototron is a little different. What they do is package a mefi replacment ecm that is compatable with the stuff set up to run the pcm555/motorolla. They have thier software in it called ingenius. That system allows the consumer to make most alterations (assuming you buy the cable & laptop software with it).. They (AZ) can make all of the other more major or difficult alterations on it.

We are looking into offering something similar especially for boosted procharger applications. The way ours would be is you get the laptop software & cable with it, you would have full access to change all parameters in it.. The kit would probably be offered bare (no preset or only a factory baseline flash and a preset basic flash for a low boost procharger like 3.5 psi & a higher boost level flash like 5 psi).. The rest would be able to be fine tuned from there if required.. :) Jamie / lakeside

BigGrizzly
01-06-2007, 09:09 AM
Jed you can'r put a water safe O2 in the e tops. it is too close to the water outlet and gets wet. That ECU doesn't work with an O2 sensor It would be a complete new system. We did that on Garry's dad's car with a Wipple. They did some of the R&D with the Mototron system. Hense his fuel injected carburetor, what a neat piece. The hole system is way cool. We induced a lean condition in a cylinder an it retarded only that cylinder's timing. It is almost idiot proof. At this point Jed don't complicate your life that engine and what is being done isn't that complex. As for Wipple exclusive, I'm not going there! Geeo Did his system with a O2, at setup, but, I believe it would get wet during running.

yeller
01-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Yeller,
I'm with you, I really would like to go all out and see what the boat is capable of!
But I may have to start charging people for rides next summer to pay for all of the upgrades...I have no problem with that.:biggrin.:

A while back I phoned a bunch of places. Tyler Crockett said they can reprogram the 496. AZ Speed is like JW said. They told me they piggyback a Delphi unit to control fuel and timing. Everyone else was a flat no.

FWIW, AZ Speed said to definately change the pistons and rods on a blower motor, but they hadn't seen any problems with the stock crank.

yeller
01-06-2007, 09:34 PM
I was just at the store and picked up a copy of Jan. HotBoat mag and there it was. 850hp from a 496HO with a Vortech SC on 91 octane. Work was done by Arizona Speed & Marine. Considering this is probably the worlds first high hp 496, the details on the engine build weren't great. Not even any dyno sheets. What they did use was stock crank, block and heads. The heads were ported and fitted with better valves. They used CP pistons, Oliver rods, Comp Cam (ASM's specs: 600intake/620exhaust), ASM's intake and 85mm throttle body and 63lb injectors. The ECU was changed to a Delphi MEFI 4B programmed by InGenious Marine software.
This was on a 2002 HO and the crank was steel. From what others have said, the new ones use a cast crank.

BigGrizzly
01-07-2007, 09:15 AM
Yeller, How much was the kit and install? How does it idle, and what was the boost? I can tell you that be very careful of those dyno figures. I won't say they lie but they are very proud of the figures. I do know that pre 2002 engines had steel cranks and also bigger closed cooling systems. What is so funny about this is that when I put a closed cooling system on my Procharged 502 and all those guys told me it couldn't be done that anything over 500HP would seize. Its really nice to work with people that are innovators and not duplicators. I did that engine at the end of 2000. Back to the price, was there a price?

yeller
01-07-2007, 03:36 PM
Grizz, I pretty much gave all the info that the mag had in my previous post. Like I said, the write up was very poor. No $, no boost level, no real specs. :( All they said about performance was that it had the power to hit 90 with a full load. It was in a 27' Cobra Razor.

BigGrizzly
01-07-2007, 05:51 PM
Thanks for the information. hotboat does this quite often. They are more interested in performance of bathing suits than performance of engines.

LKSD
01-07-2007, 08:59 PM
Thanks for the information. hotboat does this quite often. They are more interested in performance of bathing suits than performance of engines.

You guys actually read the stuff in there?? I only get it for the pictures.. :yes: :bonk: :bonk: :D

My wife would totally agree with you (and she is no "angel" as you all know).. She keeps telling me not to subscribe to it because she likes power boat & a few others better.. But I told her I will continue to subscribing to it as it is the only thing that Larry Flynt publishes that she allows me to get.. :jestera: She would rather I buy playboy, so I could at least read some better arcticles.. lol.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

BigGrizzly
01-08-2007, 06:41 PM
It is obvious that your wife is intelligent, now you need to take a lesson from her. The real reason she wants playboy is so she can read the articles.

LKSD
01-09-2007, 09:21 AM
It is obvious that your wife is intelligent, now you need to take a lesson from her. The real reason she wants playboy is so she can read the articles.

I can live with that... :D :D :D J