Low transom on F23 causing swamping

[f231989]

I have a stock 1989 Donzi F23 in great condition that I absolutely love. It is equipped with a 2002 Merc 225 EFI (2-Stroke) XL
However, I almost lost it this fall while anchored out on Lake Michigan at a boating event in 4-5 ft seas. Eventually, enough wave splash entered the back of the boat to submerge the stern so that the entire shaft of the motor was under water. I quickly got the boat moving forward and just barely got the boat up enough to stop the incoming sea and allow the bilge pump to do its job. Judging by how long the pump ran, there was a LOT of water in the bilge! I have also experienced this to a lesser degree occasionally while out tubing, but again, forward motion has always tended to resolve the condition.
Obviously, this is a condition I'd like to eliminate so that I could feel comfortable keeping the boat.
Here is what I consider to be my options:
1) The factory hinged wave bulkhead is useless. It is not sealed and it is too low in my opinion. I could try having a taller, more permanent sealed or molded bulkhead installed in place of the factory piece. However, it can't be too tall or else it will block the motor from being raised.
2) I have seen pictures of a couple of F23s on the web which have had motor brackets installed (swim platforms or just a motor bracket extension) and in those cases the owners have CLOSED the transom completely (Hmmmm. . . I wonder if they were having the same problem I am?) The guy I talked to at Armstrong said their swim platform/bracket would be a PERFECT solution to my problem. (but then again, of course he would !!!) I like the idea that the Armstrong bracket adds boyancy. That might offset the negative weight balance effect of moving the motor back 36".
Regardless of what I do to the transom, I am planning to move the batteries forward to the center cockpit. This will move more weight forward and keep them out of the harm's way they were in when the stern was partially submerged.
My boat mechaninc keeps warning me not to put too much money into the boat to solve such problems. I have $20K into it so far and could see spending another $5-8K to solve this problem.
What do you guys think?
- Any of you know anyone who dealt with this problem on an F23?
- Is the F23 a good candidate for a bracket so that I can close the transom?
- If so, whose or which type of bracket and how far back should I go with the motor? Is the stock F23 transom (provided there is no rot) strong enough to handle a bracket?
- What do you guys think about the fore-to-aft weight offset question of adding a bracket to an F23?
- Any of you had experience with Armstrong brackets? Reactions to how an Armstrong bracket might work on my boat?
- Any other silver bullet solutions to the wave-backsplash problem?
Many Thanks in advance for your replies -
DM

[Morgan's Cloud]

IMO putting the engine on a bracket will exacerbate the problem (wether it has flotation in it or not) as moving the engine further aft will mean the 'leverage' on the transom will be greater ...or (in other words) the balance point will be moved back even more.
It will however allow you to put in a proper splashwell/bulkhead.
Incidentally , after my late friend "Stanley" lost his Hornet II to hurricane Emily in -87 he got an F23. It was built by the guy who at that time was running the fiberglass plant for Donzi for himself as his personal boat.
According to Stanley he put an extra layer of glass into it and I can assure you , I always thought that boat sat kind a low too !
Maybe as an alternative you might consider building the transom up another 5" and lengthening the motor's shaft. I have seen this done on a few Seacraft 23's with twins that the owners loved too much to part with because of the same problem.
Steve

[d1mbu1b]

The guy I talked to at Armstrong said their swim platform/bracket would be a PERFECT solution to my problem. (but then again, of course he would !!!)

Is he willing to 'guarentee' it?

[f231989]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm eager from more people who have had this issue with their F23.

To d1mbu1b: I doubt whether Armstrong will warranty the product to a satisfactory degree.

Update:
Today, I spoke to a guy who added a platform/bracket to his F23:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14723&d=1126736255

He recently sold the boat but had it listed on Donzi.net for awhile. Among other things he said:

- the boat handled much better after the platform/bracket was installed.
- moving the motor back did NOT have an adverse effect on the fore/aft weight distribution
- the platform/bracket did NOT cause the boat to sit lower in the water probably due to the positive flotation built-in to the bracket. (Armstrong claims 300 lbs of positive flotation in theirs)
- he has rebuilt many boats and that the Donzi F23 transom is about 3 1/2 " thick and is clearly able to handle the stress of a bracket even while trailering.
- he left the existing scuppers in place and they do fine.

Any other reactions ?

[vonkamp]

I have seen Armstrong products and they make high quality stuff. If I was in the market for a transom bracket, I would get one from them. Good luck,
Von

[vonkamp]

Just found this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Stainless-Marine-Single-Engine-Outboard-Bracket-18-Lng_W0QQitemZ270065642501QQihZ017QQcategoryZ26455Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Cuda]

On my Biddison, it came with a low splash guard on the transom. I had built a higher one out of plywood years ago. I also mounted rod holders on it. I had the same problem of raising the engine all the way up, so I would just pull it out before raising it all the way. Last year, I made another one about half as high as the plywood one, but taller than the stock. I made it out of pvc board, it was easy to make, won't rot, looks good, and keeps me from taking green water over the transom. It is a self bailing cockpit. The engine will tilt all the way up too. You can see the teak that the guard slides in, that's how tall the original was.

[Sofa King]

Armstrong brakets suck. I had one on a 31 jupiter. POS bent. I had to fight with Armstrong and I still had to pay $800 just to get a crap repair from them. Stay away from ANY bracket mount system unles it's molded into the hull.

Sofa King

[need for speed]

My parents had the same problem with a 31 Jupiter with the Braket... No good... for all that $ it should have been super...It was not! plus that boat needed motors on the boat not way out back.. the thing did n't wana get up and go with 4 people and a tank of fuel, and a load of bear....... I think the motors sat way too far back.. had to tab that boat all the way down just to get it up and think about getting going.

[Mr X]

Mine does the same thing and it is not holding water.
They just sit LOW, Poodle, I think he has a ZF-23
Not an F-23. If it looks like this, it is a ZF-23. Not to be confused with a 23-ZF

[f231989]

Thanks Mad Poodle and Mr X:

Mr X you've got the right boat for sure. Mine is like yours. I've attached the page from the 1988 catlog to clarify the model number issue.

I gotta tell you -- its pretty scary that there's no concensus on the effectiveness of brackets or manufacturers (Especially Armstrong).
To hear what Need For Speed said about his parent's Juptier 31 setup (twin-225 4-strokes on the bracket -- now that must have been expensive!!!) delivering bad ride has got me worried.

Again though, taking what DEEPPER has told me about his positive results with my model boat and a bracket (photo of his red F23 attached) along with the fact that I've seen pictures of two other bracket installs in F23s has gotta make me think that there's something right about it.

Any other opinions?

[DONZI]

Did you say swamped ? :lookaroun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhK2xd2iUCM&NR

[pmreed]

You might want to talk to Fishboy about jackplates on an F23. See this thread. (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46220)

Phil

[treeexperts]

I have a stock 1989 Donzi F23 in great condition that I absolutely love. It is equipped with a 2002 Merc 225 EFI (2-Stroke) XL
However, I almost lost it this fall while anchored out on Lake Michigan at a boating event in 4-5 ft seas. Eventually, enough wave splash entered the back of the boat to submerge the stern so that the entire shaft of the motor was under water. I quickly got the boat moving forward and just barely got the boat up enough to stop the incoming sea and allow the bilge pump to do its job. Judging by how long the pump ran, there was a LOT of water in the bilge! I have also experienced this to a lesser degree occasionally while out tubing, but again, forward motion has always tended to resolve the condition.
Obviously, this is a condition I'd like to eliminate so that I could feel comfortable keeping the boat.
Here is what I consider to be my options:
1) The factory hinged wave bulkhead is useless. It is not sealed and it is too low in my opinion. I could try having a taller, more permanent sealed or molded bulkhead installed in place of the factory piece. However, it can't be too tall or else it will block the motor from being raised.
2) I have seen pictures of a couple of F23s on the web which have had motor brackets installed (swim platforms or just a motor bracket extension) and in those cases the owners have CLOSED the transom completely (Hmmmm. . . I wonder if they were having the same problem I am?) The guy I talked to at Armstrong said their swim platform/bracket would be a PERFECT solution to my problem. (but then again, of course he would !!!) I like the idea that the Armstrong bracket adds boyancy. That might offset the negative weight balance effect of moving the motor back 36".
Regardless of what I do to the transom, I am planning to move the batteries forward to the center cockpit. This will move more weight forward and keep them out of the harm's way they were in when the stern was partially submerged.
My boat mechaninc keeps warning me not to put too much money into the boat to solve such problems. I have $20K into it so far and could see spending another $5-8K to solve this problem.
What do you guys think?
- Any of you know anyone who dealt with this problem on an F23?
- Is the F23 a good candidate for a bracket so that I can close the transom?
- If so, whose or which type of bracket and how far back should I go with the motor? Is the stock F23 transom (provided there is no rot) strong enough to handle a bracket?
- What do you guys think about the fore-to-aft weight offset question of adding a bracket to an F23?
- Any of you had experience with Armstrong brackets? Reactions to how an Armstrong bracket might work on my boat?
- Any other silver bullet solutions to the wave-backsplash problem?
Many Thanks in advance for your replies -
DM
Have you done anything to your boat yet? If so what are the results. I have an 1988 f23 and love it, but i am dealing with the same issues. I almost lost my boat putting it in at a very steep boat ramp at low tide. I would be curious to know how much the man spent on that red donzi, and how it affected the performance of the boat. thanks