PDA

View Full Version : Turbine Powered Donzi



DonziJon
12-05-2006, 06:23 PM
Has anyone thought about putting a Pratt & Whitney PT6 Turbine in a Donzi Classic? The Navy uses them (multiple) in "Swift Boats". I think they make around 670 Shaft HP....depending on the year. I can't remember how much they weigh, but I think it's around 300 pounds. They have been around since the early sixties. I think they are used in the JetRanger Helicopter and other aircraft. Not sure. Maybe Cheap??

Would such an application be appropriate for a Donzi? After all, a Donzi is usually a V8. Turbines have a different sound......Just wondering. John

gpapich
12-05-2006, 07:15 PM
PT6's are long engines. Check out these guys for some fast info: http://www.turbokart.com/about_pw100.htm. I believe they are about 5ft long. Howard Arneson used one on one of his early cats. I would think if you wanted to put one into a C18 or 22, you'd have to get rid of the back bench or notch it and run an engine cover almost all the way up to the back of the front seats. Also, your fuel consumption is horrible. You'll need about 80gal to make it worth your time. Also, turbines idle at about 50 to 60% power. You need to figure a way to control the power for low speed manuevering.

More links: http://www.turbokart.com/home.htm.

I'm with you. I'm drooling over the sounds of a turbine. I think that the engine that would most likely fit doesn't have enough power (Allison 250-C18 ). You can step up to the big bucks with the 250-C30R/1. Typically anywhere from $70k to 100k for an engine, depending on who quotes you.

If you can pull it off, more power to you. Definitely unique.:eek!:

dclassic
12-05-2006, 11:14 PM
I think it would be a cool idea. I don't know much about turbine power but they seem like a definite possability. Turbine Marine did a 19' Nor Tech with a 400hp Bell turbine. Looks like a lot of fun. That is one of the only things that sounds as cool as a monster turbo spooled up on a Diesel. The packaging appears about the same as a gas motor, but I am not sure what would work well in a classic. You could try emailing Turbine Marine and pick their brains. It would be interesting to see what they have to say.

http://www.turbinemarine.com/video_MT.html

Keep us posted if you get any good info.

Mr X
12-06-2006, 07:53 AM
We did one in a 21' Talon. The horsepower is only around 350
on those engines. We ran it thru a hydraulic transmission and coupled it to a Bravo drive. It only runs about 75 MPH and EATS thru fuel like you would not believe!! Took a couple years to do and it is not still not perfected. The money was astronomic!
No way I can see that it would fit into any Donzi classic.
And yes it is for sale........ :)

RedDog
12-06-2006, 08:59 AM
If you really want it these guys should be in the mix - http://www.gas-turbines.com/

Be sure to check out the "Squirt Boat" videos - http://www.gas-turbines.com/squirt_2.htm#videos

DonziJon
12-06-2006, 10:16 AM
Squirt 2; Totally Outrageous: GEORGE??? Actually, I think turbines are rather quiet at speed as long as they aren't spinning an air propeller. May be a good way to get around the new noise ordnances. I think less than 600 HP maybe wouldn't be worth the trouble though.

Rover/BRM built a turbine powered race car for Le Mans back in the early sixties and the only noticable sound was the airstream passing around the car and a whistling sound as it went by. The car finished the race without incident. The crew had to replace brake pads and add fuel every once in awhile. The car ran as an "experimental" and was not eligible to win any prize.

The older (therefore cheaper to buy today) turbines are the ones that suck up fuel. But then, a 350 V8 burns 21 GPH if you ran it flat out for an hour....and it held together. John

gcarter
12-06-2006, 02:13 PM
Non-regenerative turbines have a fuel consumption rate of about 1.5 Lb/HP/Hr. A good running four stroke gasoline engine is about .55Lb/HP/Hr, a very good turbo Diesel is about .34 Lb/HP/Hr, and a typical two stroke gasoline engine is about 1.25 Lb/HP/Hr.:eek!: :eek!:
The best turbines are very large, regenerative engines like those used in power generation or some (a very few) aircraft gas turbines.....the Russians use one on the long range Bear bomber that are rated at about 15,000 HP and burn .37 Lb/HP/Hr, the same as a very efficient turbo Diesel.....but then they're probably 20' long.
As far as boat installations go, they produce a LOT of very hot exhaust gasses.

DonziJon
12-06-2006, 02:49 PM
George: I think the guy at Gas Turbines.com said Squirt "1" burned about 15 gallons over an hour of hard running. That's better than a 350 V8. I was just thinkin, what with you looking for a new project an all.....:lookaroun John

gcarter
12-06-2006, 04:01 PM
The French Turbo Meca company used to build a tiny turbo jet of about 200 # thrust.....but then all you would have is thrust!!!! ya talk about inefficient!
They put a few of these engines in the now defunct Bede BD-5J.
These engines were tiny!!! probably 12" in diameter and 18" long. I think they weighed less than 100 Lb.

DonziJon
12-07-2006, 09:46 AM
World Record: http://www.bd5.com/ John

Pismo
12-07-2006, 10:40 AM
How about a nuclear reactor.....

gcarter
12-07-2006, 11:33 AM
World Record: http://www.bd5.com/ John
Thanks for the link John.
If you look at the different links concerning the engine, you can see how tiny this engine is. Those injector pics are on a standard newspaper.
Hmmmmm.....maybe a jet pack!!:eek!: :eek!:

ALLAN BROWN
12-07-2006, 12:17 PM
Sounds like the blind leading the criminally insane. There are one shaft and two shaft layouts. Idle is about 50% of the RPM, not HP. The gas generator section keeps its revs up (whether or not it is attached to the output shaft) in order maintain flame centering, cooling, etc. You can stop the output shaft at idle for shifting, etc. on a two shaft. They do burn plenty of fuel, especially the older ones. I was a field engineer for the Ford regenerative turbine in the seventies. We did about 30 boat installations. Very docile. Very quiet. 10% more fuel than a Diesel.

gpapich
12-07-2006, 03:00 PM
I'm not a powertrain engineer or mechanic with years of experience, however, I would like to throw this challenge out there. Let's see who can do a "back of the napkin" cost analysis on a couple of different turbine-based small boat powertrains.

I'm getting ready to move cross country from CA to Washington DC with a new job. I don't have the time for a science project at the moment, but many of you do and many of you are quite qualified and competent enough to take a stab at it. I do have engineering based training (US Naval Academy) as well as a gas turbine officer of the watch cert (USN) for Ticonderoga class cruisers. I've played around with homebuilt and modified aircraft for over 20yrs as well as automotive engine swaps (v-8 Vega wagon). I'd pony up a first go at it, but getting the new job up and rolling is #1 at the moment. I'll get back in the game with my X-18 later (rotten freeze plugs and oil leaks, low compression on #1 cyl) when I can pull the engine and do things right.

I'm sure many of us thought that GEO was nuts with his 800+hp Arnie-driven X-18. Most of us run the marine equivalent of Corvettes. Let's do some creative, competent bench racing and hotrodding and come up with some ideas. :hyper:

gcarter
12-07-2006, 07:25 PM
Gasoline engines are so well developed for our type of boating. It's hard for me to see any advantages in a small boat. In spite of the fact several companies have (like Brownies experience w/Ford, and Chrysler comes to mind also) developed turbine powered vehicles, they are still basically stationary engines. They're great for constant load applications like generating power, or turning an aircraft propeller.
Hmmmmm....maybe a turbine/electric drive!:eek!: :eek!:
I really like the hydrostatic drive on the boat the Ted worked on. W/a set up like that, you have excellent control. I was looking at some sites this afternoon and many of the installations are pretty bulky. Wires and tubes coming from all directions. Then you see lots of insulating material on the exhaust. Nothing very pretty about it. The best installations I saw were APUs on airliners. They're very neatly packaged right in the tail of that 727 you flew on last week.:yes:

David Hartmann
12-18-2006, 09:36 PM
Has anyone thought about putting a Pratt & Whitney PT6 Turbine in a Donzi Classic?

Well It is not quite a Donzi but When you say has anyone ever thought of doing it. I would bet that Jim Wynne (Left) and Walt Walters (right) Thought of it often after they one the 1966 race in this boat. Twin 500HP Gas Turbines (P&W). My dad (Center) talked about putting one in my(was his) St Tropez (19' Donzi) for years. If anyone is ever serious about this sort of thing I have quite a lot of information on it.

David Hartmann
12-18-2006, 09:55 PM
Also if any tells you that you have to have Bolsters in a performace boat take another look at that picture.

boldts
12-19-2006, 09:37 AM
I got to see Howard Arneson's cat (I believe it was a 32 Skater) at the NJ Trump Plaza Offshore World Chapionships. Man was it coooool. He used small electric like trolling motors to manuver the boat around the marina. Very quiet and very stelth. When he fuse on that jet engine and started throwing flames 6 to 10 feet into the air, the WOW factor went through the roof. Very cool and an oportunity of a life time for me. That same racing event, Tom Gentry with the Gentry Eagle was in attendance. That boat at the time was running 2 very large diesels attached to surface drives and in the center of them was a jet engine with a jet drive. I've been very lucky to see and witness some very neat things.

Then, a few years later at I believe it was the Detroit boat show, but it may have been Cleveland's show, I saw a red Talon that I believe was like the one Ted talks about here with a small jet engine. It was again a very WOW piece, but I don't have any info. on it.