Is This Hull Failure???

[DudeHoss]

Ok, so I have the worlds worst luck with boats. I bought a pre-owned 2006 22 Classic this past July. I noticed a crack in the bottom of the bildge and a crack on the bottom of the Hull in August. The outdrive was falling down as well so I figured I'd better get it to the shop. I said goodbye to my new toy as I turned it over to Xtreme Marine in Lewisville TX. ( My Local Donzi Dealer ) Fast Forwad to October 20th and they are ready to fix the crack in the hull. Well, the place that was actually going to do the fiber glass repair work for Donzi sent the boat back and said that they could fix the crack had spiderwebbed and Donzi needed to be made aware of this before they worked on the boat. Here are Some Pictures of the Cracks on the outside of the hull.

[DudeHoss]

I talked with Bill at Donzi today and he was trying to reassure me that they have a repair kit for this boat and this problem. I am worried about the Gel Coat matching where they are going to make the repair on the outside. The inside will probably look better. I think I need to get a marine surveyer to look at the boat and get a second opinion. Bill sent me these attatchments today.

One was a list of supplies needed for the repair:

CLASSIC STRINGER KIT

1 ½ GL. ATPRIME
1 ½ GL. OF INTERIOR GEL
1 FOAM FILLET
1 PC. OF 1708 TAPE 12 INCHES X 200 INCHES
1 PC OF 3408 50 INCHES X 60 INCHES OR 2 PC 1708
5 GL OF RESIN
2 GL OF BONDING PUTTY

The second was the repair process:

22 CLASSIC STRINGER REPAIR PROCEDURE

The following is the repair procedure used when fixing cracks that may appear on the inboard side of 22 Classic engine room stringers. Also included is a drawing to illustrate the method and a web link to the product ATPRIME 2 -- http://www.reichhold.com/composites/products/brand.cfm?ID=17
1. Remove engine and drive.
2. Remove any hoses, wiring, etc. from space between stringers.
3. Thoroughly grind inboard surface of stringers and hull bottom to remove gelcoat. Grind area to exceed surface of added laminates
4. Treat all ground areas with Atprime 2, following instructions provided by product manufacturer. As an alternative to using Atprime 2 you may replace the normal polyester/vinylester repair resins in the lamination with epoxy resins such as West Systems repair materials. ** If an epoxy repair system is not used Atprime 2 is required **
5. Install foam fillet into corner of stringer/ hull bottom. Bed fillet in bonding putty. Smooth and flatten any putty that may squeeze out around edges of fillet.
6. Laminate one layer of 12-inch wide 3610 over the fillet. Center the 12-inch piece over the fillet with equal areas laminated onto the hull bottom and the stringer.
7. Laminate one continuous layer of 3610 from top of stringer down over fillet to keel and continuing up over similarly prepared fillet and 12-inch laminate of opposite stringer.
8. Re-gel all areas.
9. Reinstall all removed items such as engines, drives, rigging etc.

[DudeHoss]

Picture of the Repair... Oh, and a picture of what the boat looked like the day I bought it. That was way back when the boat used to see water.

[Rootsy]

Can it be repaired? sure.... is it right... that is subjective... i think someone needs to do some engineering instead of coming up with a band-aide...

but... that's JMHO....

JR

[Dredgeking]

didn't someone else just have a similar issue? is this failure pretty common? maybe i won't be looking at 22's in my near future.

[mrfixxall]

Ok, so I have the worlds worst luck with boats. I bought a pre-owned 2006 22 Classis this past July. I noticed a crack in the bottom of the bildge and a crack on the bottom of the Hull in August. The outdrive was falling down as well so I figured I'd better get it to the shop. I said goodbye to my new toy as I turned it over to Xtreme Marine in Lewisville TX. ( My Local Donzi Dealer ) Fast Forwad to October 20th and they are ready to fix the crack in the hull. Well, the place that was actually going to do the fiber glass repair work for Donzi sent the boat back and said that they could fix the crack had spiderwebbed and Donzi needed to be made aware of this before they worked on the boat. Here are Some Pictures of the Cracks on the outside of the hull.

Can it be fixed, yes will it happen again probably..if its a 2006 i would demand another hull from donzi.. Those cracks may be further in the fiberglass then the gel coat shows.

The resin may have been mixed to hot (to much mek) and becomes brittle not flexable enuff and then a crack occures.

[mphatc]

The second picture shows some severe stress fractures and opening of the gelcoat. This only happens when the lay up underneath has been weakened.

Yes it can be repaired, but the work is far more extensive than the patch Donzi describes . . I agree with mrfixxall that you should get a new hull.

Do I recall someone clarifying that a product warranty is for the product, not the original owner . . .

Good Luck !
Mario L.

[Cuda]

What worries me is that Donzi already has a fix for this problem. Sounds like it's not the first one they have had.

[cigarette30]

This flat SUCKS ! I had a fiberglass problem with my 2004, and they (Donzi) took care of it, but it's still not right. Makes you wonder if the quality is in fact still there. :confused:

[richardoren]

Is this the same hull as the 2001 Donzi 22ZX ?!? :eek:

[BUIZILLA]

Isn't hull failure kind of strong wording for this??

if it broke in half, or delaminated, I could see using that terminology, but this is more cosmetic at this point... IMO,,

:lookaroun

[RickSE]

Unfortunately this seems to be happening to some newer 22's with bigger HP.

DudeHoss, is your's a 496 HO boat?

John W is currently having the 22 Stringer Repair done on his 2004 HO.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46785

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46496

This is only my opinion but what I believe is happening. The inboard edge of the stringer sits directly over the outboard edge of the inner lifting strake. The floor panel between the stringers, stringer-keel-stringer, is flexing, bowing or pushing up due to water pressure at speed. When it flexes it stresses the joint at the base of stringer(s), causing the cracking in the gel-kote at the inboard base of the stringer and outboard edge of the lifting strake.

Donzi is trying to eliminate the stress riser at the base of the stringer with the fillet and strengthen the floor panel with the additional laminate.

Will it completely solve the problem? Will it help? I can say this, my boat which already has two additional layers of glass in the lay-up is also flexing but it does appear to be considerably less severe then what John W describes and what I see in DudeHoss’ pictures.

[Rootsy]

nice solidworks sketch...

[DudeHoss]

There is another picture of a severe crack inside the bilge that I haven't posted. I think this constitutes true Hull Failure. This boat is brand new and has about 50 hours on it. I use this boat in Calm Texas Lakes and it has never seen big water. I don't think it is right that I have a new boat that has to have the bilge and the bottom of the hull fixed after 50 hours of light use. Bill at Donzi tells me that Water Works in Lewisville TX is a great fiberglass shop and that I shouldn't be able to tell that it has been repaired.

I'm with Mrfixall & Rootsy. I think there was too much catalyst used in the resin and this area is brittle or just weak. I'm not after getting a new hull. If this can be made right then I'm ok. However, I'm afraid a band-aide isn't going to permanently solve this problem.

I have Dennis Gibbs coming out to look at the boat today. Dennis is a Marine Surveyor and comes very highly recommended. I will repost after he sees the boat at 3:00 pm.

[Trueser]

You wonder what would happen if someone read this post and was in the market for a newer 22.

How could that not be hull failure?

[Rootsy]

If Rick's diagram is correct.. stringer to strake placement... it's fairly easy to see why this is most likely happening...

[RickSE]

Rootsy, after all the crawling around and measuring I did in and under the boat I'm pretty sure this is how the cross-section looks.

In my case I first thought my stringers were flexing under power :hyper: causing the bilge coat and gel to stress crack, but as I looked at it closer I came to the conclusion that the stringers are rock solid and it's actually the floor panel between the stringers that's flexing. I have absolutely no stress cracks outboard of the stringers all the cracks in the engine compartment are inboard between the stringers. Like DudeHoss the only exterior cracks I have are hairlines on the outboard and trailing edge of both inner lifting strakes but less severe.

I seriously doubt that any of these boats have a laminate problem. They are flexing and finding the weakest spot.

Yes it sucks but at least Donzi Marine is willing to help.

[gcarter]

This is interesting, not because I had a similar situation on the '86 Minx, but because the stringers were laid up w/ the stringers up in the air about 1/2" w/ nothing under them.
My repair was very similar to this. I packed thickened epoxy under the stringers and made my own very generous fillets, not w/ foam, but with more thickened epoxy. Then I laid up 'glass very similar to this illustration. I've had zero issues. I don't have the horsepower, but I've had the hull out of the water plenty of times. Even made the tortuous crossing of Tampa Bay at last years Homecoming.
Maybe this is what Donzi should start with.
My own thoughts....'Glass is very forgiving stuff. When the gel is ground off and the surveyer gets a chance to determine if there's any internal delamination, and btw it's pretty easy to do, a repair like this is what would be natural. Rick is right IMO, the answer is to spread out the load.

[DudeHoss]

I have been told and warned to remove this post... So, I'm going to do so 10/25/06.

I am not trying to "Bash" Donzi in anyway I assure all of you. I am disappointed that after buying a Brand New 2006 22 Classic that I would see this problem. I was purely seeking the advice, expertise and your opinions which I value and depend upon.

I have been a fan of the 22 Classic for many years and that’s why at age 25 it was my first boat. I will give Donzi every opportunity to make this right. They will try to do this through making the repair I have shared with you. I have been told quote, "THIS PROBLEM YOU ARE SEEING IS NO BIG DEAL." However, the survey that took place this afternoon is not good, and does show that the hull integrity of my 22 Classic with the 496 HO has a several severe hull fractures that compromise the overall integrity of the boat. It also shows that my boat has been well maintained, has no signs of abuse, no signs of any impacts and zero signs of being driven hard or incorrectly. I will share this information via email or private messages if you are interested.

I apologize for posting this thread. I am a huge fan of Donzi and I love my 22 Classic.

[Vegas Classic]

Warned and told to remove the post??? That's BS we should be able to follow this!!!!!!!!

Can someone tell me how long this current "regime" has been producing Classics?

[DudeHoss]

39 Years for Donzi 13 Years for American Marine Holdings...

[Vegas Classic]

Man, I feel for you John, good luck, I hope they make it right. Your boat is beautiful.

[DudeHoss]

Today 10/24/06 I had a highly recommended Marine Surveyor look at the boat. Dennis Gibbs www.thebigboatshow.com came to look at my 22 Classic.

In the last month my boat has started taking on water while I’m out running. I didn’t contribute this to the crack I was seeing in the bilge because I know that there are multiple layers of fiber glass resin and gel coat in the hull of a boat and I certainly didn’t think my boat was leaking. After only a few minutes with the boat Dennis asked me if I have noticed any water in the bilge after running. I told him while the boat was in the shop that I wanted them to see if the engine was leaking because I was noticing and inordinate amount of water in the bilge after running lately. Xtreme marine told me they couldn’t find a leak coming from the engine. Dennis proceeded to say that he believed that the cracks were so severe that the boat was probably taking on water from the cracks in the hull. In fact he thought that if I were to get in rough water and run the boat hard I could have damaged the boat so badly that it could have sunk if the hull gave way.

Donzi says that the 496 HO is a lot of power for this hull… I asked, did you have any problems like this when you put the HP500EFI engine in the boat. Hahaha laughed the voice on the other end. We never put that engine in the 22 Classic. That must mean I misread this article! http://www.powerboatmagazine.com/2002tests/jan1.php

“We tested the 22 Classic in balmy conditions in Placida, Fla., and we can see why-at least in some measure-the boat has such a strong following. Our test model came with the Special Edition graphics and interior package, a Mercury Racing HP500EFI engine and an $89,507 sticker. At that price for a 22-footer, buyers had better be passionate.”

The Hull Integrity of my 22 (I’m not suggesting any one else’s hull in compromised) was so compromised that it presented a HUGE liability to Donzi. Dennis went on to say and I quote after only a few minutes with my boat, “I WOULD DEMAND A NEW HULL FORM DONZI!” (I will have more pictures posted when I get them back with my survey to back this statement) You are not looking at “stress fractures in my gel coat.” You are looking at actual pictures of a hull failure and several serious cracks that go all the way through my hull. A person high up in Donzi told me “THIS IS NO BIG DEAL.”

I work in an industry where people are always trying to win the corporate lottery and want everything for inconsequential reasons. I want what is right. That’s all! If a new hull is in order then great lets do that. If a repair will solve my problems, than that’s great too. I think I have a HOT HULL. I think that the hull cured improperly and my one year old boat could look like a 20 year old boat in a year or two with stress cracks in other areas if I were to just have it repaired. That is one of my worries!

The other worry is flipping the boat upside down and cutting out the lifting strake and grinding the bottom. Then flipping the boat over and grinding the inside and the stringer only to add some fiberglass. After that they will rebuild the bottom including the lifting strake and re gel coat the underside. All of this on a brand new boat that I’ll have to disclose to a buyer if I ever want to sell my Classic. What is it about that that I don’t feel right about. I’m sorry, but I didn’t do anything to deserve this on my boat. I want this made right and a repair doesn’t seem like it will make the boat right. Am I wrong?

I’m not after winning the corporate lottery. I don’t want what I don’t deserve. However, I’m completely torn over asking for what maybe too much and feeling like a repair won’t do the trick. If I’m out of line then tell me!!!

Once again I’m not trying to “BASH” Donzi. I’m just devastated over the condition of my new boat. I apologize if I’m offending anyone that is not my intention. I am just in need of some advise.

WHAT THE HELL DO I DO???

[BUIZILLA]

Dude, you sound like a very level headed person for your age. You are thinking things through logically, and fairly, to all party's involved. I compliment you on that...

You asked for an opinion, mine is this at this point... fill the bilge with colored water to about halfway up the fore/aft stringers, this is going to be a lot of water. Make sure the outside of the hull is dry.... if water got in the bilge from the hull arena, then it's going to leak out as well, so... if you get water seepage visible outside the hull, anywhere, especially in the compromised area, then demand a new hull. If there is ANY stalling on the part of the manufacturer whatsoever, then get a USCG safety inspection documented. PERIOD, end of story. I went through this with a new boat from a BIG name manufacturer awhile back, and got a new hull, rigged and water ready, in less than 3-4 weeks.

I truly wish you the best in this situation. You sound like a great fan of DONZI's.

JH

[Team Jefe]

I have been told and warned to remove this post... So, I'm going to do so 10/25/06.
[/B]

I too am curious as to who warned you about taking this thread down.

I only know one guy around here who can do that...and if HE wanted it gone it would already be gone.

[Trueser]

I wonder what the difference is on the thickness the Hull from a 80's model to a late model. Between the stringers!

Is there a way to measure this without drilling?

Good luck

[blueliner]

yeah, for sure, who warned you???? (i know that won't be answered) but last time i checked, this is a free-speaking country, and you should be able to voice your opinion and concerns they way you see fit. if people don't agree and don't want to listen to you, then they won't respond. your opinion and concerns are valid and you should see fit as to how you want to go about conveying them. donzi makes great boats and i think it is important for everyone on this board to know how they respond to their customers needs after the purchase of a boat. customer service is a very important part of the boat buying process and how the company honors their warranty and responds to their customers needs is something i personally am interested in. everyone makes mistakes... but it is how we rectify them that marks what kind of character we have.



I too am curious as to who warned you about taking this thread down.
I only know one guy around here who can do that...and if HE wanted it gone it would already be gone.

[Carl C]

This thread is informative and of great concern to owners of late model 22Cs. Please leave it up and keep us informed. I have seen no problems on my '05 after 80 hours. I don't abuse the boat but I do run it hard. I would also be upset if I found damage like you posted. This shouldn't have happened even if you do run the boat hard. These are not Sea-Rays. They are made to go fast. You are not bad mouthing Donzi so don't worry about that. You have a legitimate beef and I wish you the best in resolving it. BTW I had a very similar crack in the same place on a Pro-craft years ago. It was repaired and the repair was invisible but the crack returned 2 years later! The insurer then totalled the boat. The crack looked exactly like yours; along a strake. And it was letting water into the boat!

[BUIZILLA]

how do I edit and change my poll vote??

[Dredgeking]

Dude,
Don't roll over. If you have a hull warranty, use every bit of it. It is a manufacturers warranty. I think you must not be talking to the right person. You may have to make contact with several people until you get to the one who can help. Remember, the American Public is full of idiots and some of them may work at Donzi. I know there are WAY TOO MANY on my jobsite right now (can't find good help anymore:confused: ). But don't get discouraged and do get what you deserve.

Don't delete the thread and don't worry about any pressure. This Donzi community is one of the best online communities I've seen. These guys are some of the most genuine and professional people I've seen on the net. Use the guidance from here and get your warranty work performed properly.

My wife's Mercedes had all kinds of problems one year. The dealer had no real idea how to fix it, but I can assure you that I never let them think they were going to bandaid the situation. They were professional in properly repairing it, but I had to keep a close eye on what work they performed and never let them get by with " I think we fixed it this time". It needs to be handled properly or you'll never be happy with your purchase and regret getting it. MB finally did all they needed to do and because of their warranty program, I'm going to buy several more in the future. Good companies don't run over their customers. They stand up and handle their business.

Good luck. Keep us informed and hopefully some more helpful insight will come from here.

[Lenny]

On a side note, I have to agree with most here that I would want something "new" to fix this. but that is just me ,and my pocketbook.

BUT, I have never heard of using too much MEKP (catalyst) causing a brittle lay-up in the FRP laminate schedule. Certainly it will cause the Styrene to want to leave in a hurry and generate enormous heat, short of a fire, and probably all but kill the people laying it up through toxication, but as long as the flash time is of a duration that allows for the complete saturation of the fiber, and leaves NO uncured resin within the lay-up (later creating blisters 100% of the time) i do not see this as a resulting cause of a hull failure.

I do KNOW that too much catalyst WILL cause for brittle and unpredictable GELCOAT. A hot mix in gel will also come back and flash in a different colour than a cool or properly mixed gel. You can't get away with poor mix rates here.

In looking at the photos supplied, it makes me wonder if it was (and how it is) sitting on the trailer that we have not seen yet, and if in fact it was "dropped" onto the trailer from above or was on the trailer and somehow some enormous weight from above was applied. I know this is far fetched stuff, but thta just seems weird. Do you use a lift truck service at a Marina? Was it secured and tied down and then tried to be lifted by forks?

Whatever happened, that does NOT look good.

My $.02... :)

[Cuda]

I am also curous who warned you to remove this thread. All of us here love our Donzi's, but we are not above pointing out when the emperor has no clothes. One thing we care about more than our Donzi's, is our fellow Donzi owners.

If it's leaking through the hull, I would certainly want a new hull. I do not think you are out of line wanting one.

Best of luck, keep us informed.

[wrussellw]

If there is ANY stalling on the part of the manufacturer whatsoever, then get a USCG safety inspection documented. PERIOD, end of story. I went through this with a new boat from a BIG name manufacturer awhile back, and got a new hull, rigged and water ready, in less than 3-4 weeks.


This is excellent advice. I had a very similar issue with ANOTHER major boat builder. After my USCG inspection, very involved, the boat was picked up and replaced two weeks later with new boat, motor, trailer and a Stainless Steel T-Top and Garmin Electronics NO CHARGE. With additional warrantry time.

Keep your cool, try to stay out of court and present your case professionally with proper documentaion.

[RickSE]

Never built a HP500EFI 22C?? Then what the hell is sitting in my garage? :confused: The 22-SE's had two additional layers of glass in the hull which as I stated before is why I think mine is not stress cracking as much as the other two we've heard about on this board.

This is not a single occurrence and I was told they have only seen this with the higher power 22-C's, i.e. HO boats.

I still don't think this is a big deal. Grind down the gel and see what's underneath it.

Donzi Marine is willing to help. Get them to agree on the fix it then see what the glass guy finds when he opens it up.

Bill M. is the guy at Donzi to talk to on this issue.

Don't delete this thread.

[Rootsy]

Carl,

until gelcoat and resin are ground away and it is determined if the cracking passed through the schedule no one can say this is structural failure.... as far as water intrusion into the hull, just because it doesn't come from the engine doesn't mean it is coming from the hull.. remember that big hole in the back of the boat for the transom assy? there is a gasket in there... not to mention bellows and hoses and cables and lions and tigers and bears... oh my... that can leak....

Many people read these threads and make assumptions and judgements in their shopping for the boats we all love... an issue brought ot light to keep us all informed is a great thing... others might have the same issue and not know about it or how to take care of it... but to make ASSUMPTIONS and ACCUSATIONS about someone trying to suppress information or strong arm someone like the MOB... please... PLEASE don't say things such as that... unless it is you being spoken to directly by the people doing such.. or it is your boat this is occuring too....

Paranoia is a very very very powerful and unhealthy thing...

before any speculation is laid down we need to see some mechanical investigation and FACTS.... not hearsay

[Carl C]

OK Rootsy let's give this a little time and hopefully Dudehoss will keep us up to date. By the photos and facts posted here and the deduction of a marine surveyer I'd say there is little doubt that this is a hull failure and the fact that Donzi has a "kit" to repair this problem indicates that it is not a one time thing. This could possibly be a problem and maybe it should be discussed before someone has their way and the whole thing goes poof.:confused:

[BUIZILLA]

fill it up with colored water, and get back to us, before the rumor mongers have dinner...

JH

[gcarter]

Jim's idea is excellent. Red food dye should do nicely.

[John W]

My rig has the same problem and is in the shope being repaired. I think we are still waiting for the atprime. I have some pics to post of the area that was ground down where the patch will be installed inside, sans engine, the boat. As far as the outside There were stress cracks in the gel coat , but not as severve as dudhoss's. The only water I had in the bilge was from the ice melting on the beer.
I will post the other pics I took tomorrow.
JW

[yeller]

If you can, try and get some pics of the repair once completed (before the engine goes in). :yes:

[Carl C]

JW, what year and hours? I assume it's also a 22? Would like to see those pics. Be careful of the beer talk; that's a hot topic here.:yes:

[Just Say N20]

Uh. . . .

. . .wouldn't food colored water stain the hull?

[BERTRAM BOY]

fill it up with colored water, and get back to us, before the rumor mongers have dinner...
JH


While I agree with Jim about 99.999999 % of the time, (I know, it's scary) I'm not so sure your colored water trick will work.The hull may not leak without a load on it.

[BUIZILLA]

I said use colored water, I didn't say use food coloring :bonk:

you can use the toilet blue tablets, that comes off purty easy...

[Carl C]

Does this fix have to be done at a Donzi dealer?

[Mr X]

http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/lurk.gif

[Carl C]

http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/lurk.gif It's interesting that someone would see this thread as popcorn entertainment. My hull is also cracked in the same location as the others, on both sides. Now if you'll excuse me I have some phone calls to make.

[Mr X]

Actually, thats NOT my opinion of this thread.... My popcorn logo is in referance to the warning to take the thread down. Unfortunatelly, with that hanging over this thread....I will not comment.
http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/dvv/popblood.gif

[Carl C]

Actually, thats NOT my opinion of this thread.... My popcorn logo is in referance to the warning to take the thread down. Unfortunatelly, with that hanging over this thread....I will not comment.
http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/dvv/popblood.gif Thanks for the clarification. I wonder how deep this goes? ChromeGorilla, how is your's holding up?:confused:

[Donziweasel]

Just out of curiosity, how many boats are now known to have this problem?

[Carl C]

Was the sringer placement changed when Donzi switched to the 496? I don't think this is an issue of increased HP. Something must of changed in the hull construction. Also, what year was the switch made from the 502 to the 496? Thanks.

[Carl C]

I just talked with Bill M. at Donzi. He was very pleasant and explained the problem and the fix. Their theory is that the 496 has harmonics that causes flexing of the hull. He explained in detail the repair that is illustrated at the beginning of this thread. I am comfortable that this will correct the problem. He said to have my glass man call them and they will arrange for the repair and modification to be done. I was not asked or warned in any way to keep quiet about this. They sound like good people and I think it will be taken care of. Dudehoss, I think customer satisfaction is very important to Donzi and that they will take care of you. :)

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

Awesome thread, great data, it is good to see factual posting, pictures etc, as I am one of Donzi's biggest fans.
Thus far Donzi has made good on any issues I have had on 3 ZX's over 6 years.

I hope to also own a 22 Classic one day.

My best to all,
Bryan Tuvell

[Cuda]

Their theory is that the 496 has harmonics that causes flexing of the hull. :)
That sounds like a song and dance to me.

I'm not doubting they can fix it, but the harmonics defense just doesn't flush with me.

[RickSE]

Bill is a great asset at Donzi Marine. He's always willing to listen and help when he can. Best of all he's directly answering calls and questions from boat owners and not just referring them to a local dealer. I know for a fact that he's been called by a few of us here recently.

I agree with Cuda and I don't think its harmonics. I honestly believe it's the position of the stringers in reference to the inner lifting strakes. Look inside your hull. On mine I can see where the opposing horizontal face of the lifting strake meets the base of the stringer. The V-bottom comes up from the keel and then rolls over to a horizontal face before it meets the inboard base of the stringer. This is where the cracks are showing up. Adding glass and a radius to this location should help with the stress.

[Greg Maier]

I have had the distinct pleasure of completely tearing apart a 1995 Blackhawk because of extreme rot. I'm certainly not formally educated in fiberglass boat construction, but I have read just about everything I could find on this topic. There is a big difference in what I have read about how to build a boat and how Donzi actually built it. I'm not sure who is right, but I don't suspect my parquet wood transom, patchwork stringers, lag bolts into the transom, and lack of fillets is how it is supposed to be done.

[cigarette30]

I just talked with Bill M. at Donzi. He was very pleasant and explained the problem and the fix. Their theory is that the 496 has harmonics that causes flexing of the hull. He explained in detail the repair that is illustrated at the beginning of this thread ........ I think customer satisfaction is very important to Donzi and that they will take care of you. :)

If this is true, it surely is a factory defect on MANY boats, and due to the severity, and the fact they already have a "fix" outlined, one would think this would constitute a recall. At a bare minimum, the obligation to notify the affected owners to keep an eye out. It's not like the 496 has caused this problem in other boats (to our knowledge thus far), therefore one could only believe, there is simply not enough support in the affected areas. I cannot express my disappointment enough ................. :(

[John W]

Here are some pics of the repair process going on on my rig.
JW

[Lenny]

I'd be very curious as to the center to center distance on an '06 boats stringers, near the transom, and compare that to the C to C on an older, say mid 90's boat, or 80's or whatever. The hulls did not change, maybe the stringer locations did.

Easy measurement to get from 22 owners.

:)

[DudeHoss]

Thanks for the pictures John!!!


If this is true, it surely is a factory defect on MANY boats, and due to the severity, and the fact they already have a "fix" outlined, one would think this would constitute a recall. At a bare minimum, the obligation to notify the affected owners to keep an eye out. It's not like the 496 has caused this problem in other boats (to our knowledge thus far), therefore one could only believe, there is simply not enough support in the affected areas. I cannot express my disappointment enough .................

I have to say that I agree with Cigarette30.

I have already said it and I apologize for repeating myself. I am thankful Donzi is willing to "help" by repairing the cracks. However, tearing apart my boat, cutting out the port strake, rebuilding the port strake grinding out the bilge and regel-coating the bottom of my boat seems like a lot of repairs on a new boat. I don't like the extent of this repair and I feel cheated having to have this done on a new boat. I think a hull and deck replacement is in order for current owners with this problem. Bill M and Gene W. "Bill's Boss" are both very nice but I'm tired of the "harmonic talk and the run around". Hopefully my attorney can make some head way. I’m getting so frustrated with Donzi!!!

[DudeHoss]

THIS IS THE LETTER I RECIEVED AFTER THE SURVEY...
October 24, 2006

MARINE LETTER


Mr. John .........
...........................
............., TX .........


2006 - 22' Donzi
Hull No.: US - DNAC202.........
Registration No.: Not visible


We examined the above mentioned vessel on 10/24/06. We found a crack on the bottom of vessel at the port aft strake. The fracture has penetrated the hull and is also visible inside the engine compartment or the bilge next to the port stringer. The fracture is most likely the reason the bilge has been taking on an inordinate volume of water under normal running conditions. We also found various stress fractures in the gel-coat on the bottom of the vessel at the aft end of the starboard and port strake. The port strake is severely cracked and has a numerous stress fractures that spider web from the end of the strake.

It appears that this condition was caused due to the size of the engine and the lack of additional strength in the hull to support this engine. It is evident that this boat has been well maintained and has so signs of any impacts on the underside of the hull.

It is in my opinion that this condition is the result of a manufactures defect which should be covered by all warranties offered by the manufacturer. Had this hull fracture not been caught it would have likely lead to complete failure of the hull.

Attached are several color photographs.


Sincerely,

Dennis J. Gibbs
Member: ACMS (CMS), ABYC, MAT
Certified Marine Surveyor
Licensed Marine Adjuster

[DudeHoss]

Here are the pictures from the survey...

[DudeHoss]

here...

[Donziweasel]

What was Donzi's reply to the letter?

[MOP]

I brought up the engine stringer placement in a separate post, I feel Donzi created its own bilge monster by moving the stringers outboard. Most of you know I am an old fart that has worked boats most of my life, the fairly standard placement of gasoline engine stringers is 22" on center. Up until recently Donzi had their stringers placed pretty much to that standard. What happens when you move the mounting angles inboard rather then above the stringer is to induce flexing due to the rubber in the mounts. This is far from rocket science, every time the boat lands a bit hard the stringers are able to be to levered in/out by the mount brackets. This would not be an issue with solid mounts as that would eliminate the flex. The strakes measurement stayed the same and are now un supported by the stringers, frankly they should recall or cover all cost to modify all of the wide dimension stringer boats.

[boatnut]

Do we know when the stringer placement was changed? (What model year?)
And does that correlate with those that have seen signs of hull fracturing?
Ed

[Mr X]

I brought up the engine stringer placement in a separate post, I feel Donzi created its own bilge monster by moving the stringers outboard. Most of you know I am an old fart that has worked boats most of my life, the fairly standard placement of gasoline engine stringers is 22" on center. Up until recently Donzi had their stringers placed pretty much to that standard. What happens when you move the mounting angles inboard rather then above the stringer is to induce flexing due to the rubber in the mounts. This is far from rocket science, every time the boat lands a bit hard the stringers are able to be to levered in/out by the mount brackets. This would not be an issue with solid mounts as that would eliminate the flex. The strakes measurement stayed the same and are now un supported by the stringers, frankly they should recall or cover all cost to modify all of the wide dimension stringer boats.

I am sure that Rick SE's boat has a solid mount from the factory.
His is cracked.....

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

Quote--"It is evident that this boat has been well maintained and has so signs of any impacts on the underside of the hull. "

Has Donzi had a surveyor look at this hull to counter their opinions?
I am just being objective, not harmful in any way to the owner in this reply, that phrase from that report just stood out to me.
Plus I have seen a few Donzi battles over stuff in my life time.

Whatever happened to the Blister Boys 27?

Bryan Tuvell

[yeller]

MOP, IMO RickSE (in post #13) nailed the reason why these boats are cracking. All boats will flex somewhat but because of where the stringers are now placed, all that energy is transfered to one spot. Their fix will supposedly disperse that energy over a larger area and eliminate the problem.

[MOP]

I am sure that Rick SE's boat has a solid mount from the factory.
His is cracked.....

Then it goes back to the un supported strakes within the wider hull panels. The fix as shown should take care of it, glass is glass infinitely repairable!

[Carl C]

Thanks for the input, Mop, and the PM. I think most of us affected owners are going with Donzi's engineered repair. I think that if this repair fails again in the future that Donzi would still have some responsibility to make it right even if the five year hull warranty has expired. Dudehoss, I'd suggest going along with the fix. Even if you get Donzi to replace your hull this will involve even more work to your boat as it will have to be completely disassembled and re-rigged. I have seen repairs to hull bottoms that are undetectable. This is not a good situation for us affected owners but stuff happens. Get the fix done and be back boating with the rest of us in the spring. My main concern is the extra weight but at least it's at the stern. I change my vote from option 2 to option 1. I wonder how Donzi will build these hulls in the future. Will they move the stringers back closer together or will they incorporate this repair procedure?

[RickSE]

So far from Carl's post the stringers were at the current 28 1/2" dimension back until at least 1996.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47202

I have to wonder if the stringer placement change has something to do with the X-dim change that seems to have happened in the late 80's early 90's? Did they move the stringers to lower the X-dim??

Yes, I believe my stringers are rock solid. Their 2" thick and heavily braced on the outboard face with an offshore bracket in between. It's the floor panel between the stringers that's flexing and cracking at the base of the stringer in the 90 deg. corner. As Donzi is doing this corner needs to include a large diameter radius or 45 deg. chamfer transition into the floor panel between the stringers.

[yeller]

So far from Carl's post the stringers were at the current 28 1/2" dimension back until at least 1996.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47202

If that's the case, this problem should have shown up with the 502 boats, but that doesn't seem to have happened. Perhaps it has more to do with a change of material or layup schedule. :confused:

[16 for more]

I don't want to butt in. I have been in the fiberglass repair/ building area for about 20 years, and from the look of the pictures that was posted of the damage to the hull and based on the repair process I would have to say that the inboard edge of the stringer is creating a hard spot in the hull and there for trying to cut it's way through the hull. What Donzi is trying to do with there repair is to soften the inpack on the hull by spreading the load over a larger area. The concern I would have is that the material is large enough to cover each side of the V-shape foam a minimum of 6" and a enough layers are used. As far as vinyl ester or west system epoxy is concern eather would work just as good. If the boat is built with vinyl ester I would reccomend that you try to stay with it. As far as the outside is concern the gel-coat work can be matched and blended if they send you the gel-coat from the factory other than that it will discolor after time. The crack in the bildge I have not seen but if you wish to post it I will be willing to let you know if it is resin build-up or not. I hope this helps.

[John W]

My rig is back at the dealer to have the engine re-installed!!! yippeee. I stopped by the glass company for an update, he said it was repaired to the Donzi Specs and he thought they were stingy woith the material so he added extra material to run the fiberglass up the stringers, the full height. The donxi kit gave them enough glass to cover the fillet. I shoulkd be getting a call soon to come get my boat and perhaps a test run before I winterize her.
I'll see if I can get some pics, but I think the engine will be in by the time I get over there.
Thats all for now.
JW

[DudeHoss]

John,

I'm glad to hear your repair has gone so well. Thanks for the pictures...

Wednesday morning Bill and Gene called me on speaker phone and we talked through the issues. After talking for a while we agreed upon Gene having the boat fixed at the factory. I think the damage to my boat will give Donzi engineers a great example of the flaw we are seeing in current 22's. The boat was shipped back to Donzi Thursday morning and should have arrived at the factory today. I don't know if the factory will ever divulge any information they take away from analyzing my boat but I'll share whatever I learn from them if anyone is interested. I do want to say that you guys were right and Gene and Bill did seem genuinely concerned about my situation. They may have just been doing some damage control but they have made serious efforts to make this situation right. My boat is going to have the repair so I'm not getting a new hull but I will share my pictures when the repair is completed. My father and I will probably go down to pick the boat up personally because Gene wants to go on a test ride with us after we inspect the boat. I have another marine surveyor in place to examine the boat when we get to Florida.

FYI Donzi does monitor this site and they knew all about my thread before they called me

[yeller]

My rig is back at the dealer to have the engine re-installed!!! yippeee. I stopped by the glass company for an update, he said it was repaired to the Donzi Specs and he thought they were stingy woith the material so he added extra material to run the fiberglass up the stringers, the full height. The donxi kit gave them enough glass to cover the fillet.

I'm sure it'll be nice to have your boat back. :yes:

That's pretty poor that Donzi doesn't give enough material to go the full height of the stringers. Why would they only give enough to just cover the repair? The glass is dirt cheap compared to the labour involved. Personally, I'd want it to go the full height of the stringers.

[RobF]

you really want to go up and over the stringers, double wrap it as much as you can. Any decent glass shop would put the extra material in there, no matter what "kit" you get and follow it to the letter, you cant fall back on the "well, thats what Donzi gave me so thats what I put in excuse".

If it failed again its in the shops hands, not donzis. As stated, another hour worth of work and $30 worth of materials is good insurance.

[Carl C]

Good news, Dudehoss. My shop is waiting for the repair kit. I guess I'll tell them that if they need more supplies to go ahead and I'll pay the difference. I'm not sure we should be second guessing Donzis fix though. The posts in another thread indicate that the stringers were spaced about 23.5 inches at least through 1993. By 1997 they were moved apart to 28 or 28.5 inches. The first documented report of this problem seems to be 2002 and that should be a 502 boat. Therefore the problem does not seem to be related to the new stringer location or limited to 496 boats. Must be some other factor involved such as construction technique or materials. At least we're gettin' 'em fixed and I hope we're all on the water by spring.:crossfing :)

[RickSE]

The shop I talked to in CA wants to glass up and over the stringer then down the other side.

Good news DudeHoss, my boat will probably be a few months behind yours. I believe I'll take mine back in late Jan unless I find someone else in CA who knocks my socks off.

Donzi should monitor this site. It would be nice if they could respond but I understand their reluctance.

[Sofa King]

I can tell you guys from being a retailer that 99% of manufactures are taking the cheese off the pizza and the CEO's want to bring it to the bottom line regardless. Due to the high cost of resources these days, especially post Katrina the manufactures are cost cutting. This is evident by the warranties they offer. I bet Donzi used to have a ten year warranty. :wink:

Sofa King

[DudeHoss]

Hey Rick SE,

Donny at Donzi said my boat repair would be completed by the end of the month. I should be able to pick it up the first week of December. I'll have pictures of the repair and my Donzi factory tour.

Quick Question:

Should I have my 496 HO ported and polished while it's out of the boat? What would that add in terms of power??? I figured if I did the CMI exhaust when I get it back I'd notice quite a difference. Let me know!

[need for speed]

Chrome how is your HULL??? your only one # off mine..