Who has better quality than Donzi?

[Dredgeking]

Looking at classic 60's and 70's and even 80's boats, who built a better or comparable boat to Donzi? I am thinking of getting a 20-something sport boat and want to keep it a classic. I like the Cig 20 and the Donzi 22 and Minx, but am curious about other brands. Quality is my priority. Just want to see how the gurus rate some of the other brands to Donzis of the 60's and 70's.

[Bigbroadjumper]

I have owned two Donzi's and Three Magnum's in the last 25 years and all were very good. My Magnum Maltese is a 1974 and still looks almost new. Not the fastest but a great ride and with Volvo 290 drives it is very reliable.

[dr]

Whatever the answer others here can give a much better answer than I can….but…. how do you define quality…..design, engineering, adherence to specification, reliability, fit and finish, resale, frequency of repair…….

[Ranman]

Not sure if your speaking strictly about 20 something foot boats, but on a somewhat larger scale, Cigarette, Formula and of course Apache come to mind.

[Dredgeking]

I think I would enjoy a Magnum, but did they make something in the 20'-24' range? That's the size I'm looking at. I look at rigging and hull quality. Cigarette, Apache and Magnum are examples of this. Cig and Apache made 20' - 24' boats. I guess I'm looking for other options in that range. Maybe something I overlooked.

[Greg]

Fountain made a 24' for a very short while. I don't know much about them, but Reggie usually builds a good boat.

[Cuda]

I've been very happy with the three Formula's I've had. I wish I still had the 242 with twin 350's. That would be a perfect boat for me now since we moved.

[FlynLow]

In my book you'd have to go O/B with Sutphen, Checkmate, Allison, Baja and so forth. For I/O, in my opinion, you can't beat a Aronow design

[Dredgeking]

i don't want to sound like an ass, but there is no way a baja or a checkmate is in the catagory i'm looking for. the magnum, apache, cig, bertram boats are what i'm talking about. their classic because they were built to last forever and many have.

[BigGrizzly]

I have had a Donzi since 1966. we still have that boat. one set of interior,old is still here bur hard. We wore out two engines. but hull is still rock solidm and un restored(doesn't need it). My 18 Corsican is a 1972 ande still good hullv painted and new interior and new engine. previous owner's filled the block with water as well as gastank. you guessed it Divorse. My 1981 Criterion second cusions but origional engine is in the garage. hull good. Lets see a 40 year old boat, a 35 year old boat and 25 year old boat. all Donzis. You see them everyday, what other manufacturer can say this. One other note Donzi is the only Arrono boat company that has not filed a chapter 11 since it started. Why do you think that is?? How many old glastrons , Chris crafts, Cigaretts, and Formula are still out there and tunning like our Donzis. Is there a Cigarette .net or Fountain.net? Quality and fit and finish isn't just the day you take it home but 10+ years down the road. Qc was one of my jobs for Honda for over 10 years, and I have Donzis. all my other boats have come and gone but the little blue 16 donzi is still here. Does that answer the question? For me it does!

[Dredgeking]

grizz, i feel the same way about my '76 16. it was in better shape and was better built than the '99 fountain i bought in '01. there is something about the pride people took in building boats from that era that is WAY too expensive to duplicate today. i have been looking at 22 classics, the minx and the cig 20 for my next boat. those are my top 3 choices. i am just looking for suitable alternates in case i can't find a donzi or cig 20.

[Cuda]

I know of a Minx for sale. :)

[Marlin275]

People can't believe my boat is 33 years old!
The fit and finish throw them off all the time.
They made these boats before computers, when too much was just enough.

[Dredgeking]

I know of a Minx for sale. :)

i thought you were keeping it.

[Lenny]

Pantera comes to mind in a 24' version. :)

You do not have a whole lot to choose from in that era. There were not many models of that size available and probably a hard market to crack given DONZI and Cigarette(s) obvious panache' in the industry.

[Dredgeking]

pantera is one of the few companies that i think builds boats with the same quality today as they did in the beginning. i dig their little 24. i almost bought one 3 years ago.

[Cuda]

i thought you were keeping it.
Depends on which day of the week I think about it. It is so close to being the same boat as the 22, I just can't justify keeping both. I'd sell it at the price I want, then throw some more money in Deb's 22, but if it doesn't sell, it won't break my heart either. :)

[Dredgeking]

Cuda,

Can you give me the pros and cons of each boat? Are there construction quality differences between the two?

[Morgan's Cloud]

I wonder if this rare beauty is still available .......
Or is it a bit larger than you want to go ?
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40178
Steve

[Dredgeking]

i've never seen a 25 magnum. very cool. that would work for me.

[Donziweasel]

I have been in a few Fountain 27 Fevers and like Greg said, Reggie does seem to make a good boat. If you could find a 24, then that might be an option. Other than that, stay with the Aronow designs. Other than hull, you basically have two options for drivetrain, Mercruiser or Volvo. Both have thier supporters and both have pros and cons. I have had great success with Mercruiser over the years and have never owned a Volvo, but that was simply because the boats I have owned came with Mercruisers. Would love to try a Volvo Penta one day though.

[yeller]

The Cig 24 was on my short list when I wanted to move up from the 16C, but after much research, I decided against it. The 24 doesn't have the same deep V as the other Cigs, so the ride is harsher.

If looking for a 22C, I'd stick with an older one. I have an 04 and....I'm gonna get killed for this....uh....lets just say....the quality is questionable.

[CHACHI]

I'm gonna get killed for this....uh....lets just say....the quality is questionable.I would agree. Mines a '99 and some things just shouldn't have been done the way donzi did them. Ken

[boatnut]

In my opinion, if you are talking about build quality -- adherence to specs, etc. Cobalt, Formula, Boston Whaler, (plus some of the west coast boats such as Schiada, Howard, etc.) all build better quality boats consistently than Donzi has. (Don't take this as an anti Donzi comment as I have owned them since '70 and they are my favorite). If you want the classic Donzi-like mystique --simple classic styling and a fun level of performance, the classics are difficult to beat (and again in my opinion, older seems to be better). Cobalt built a few boats to Donzi classic specs, if you can land one of those it would be great quality and a collectors item. Ed

[Dredgeking]

I had a 29' Fountain and I like what Fountain does - go fast and break kilo records. My 29 ran 84.6 in the kilo with a stock carbed HP500. That was fast back then. I like the 24 fountain, but i'd rather stick with a classic. Besides, I can break the stringers in a fountain. Been there, done that.

I though Coblat used a chopper gun in the copies of the classics. I have an old powerboat mag with a test of a donzi 18 and a cobalt 16 (i think) in it. I'll have to go back and re-read it. It's from the mid 70's.

It's good to hear that that are issues with the newer Donzis. That's why I would rather buy an older boat and refurbish it or buy it already done ( a certain minx comes to mind).

[Rootsy]

so does that mean if i start buying up 60's, 70's and early 80's donzis... totally restoring and refurbishing them... you'd all give me 30-70K like the new ones cost????? or actually since they are "better" built and personally rejuvenated by moi... that they'd be worth more ? warranty included of course :)

[MOP]

20 footer Eh! Don't forget Kenny's Minx also it is without doubt one of the top in the nation in original fresh water condition.

Marlin computer pre date Donzi's by about 15-20 years though at the time used only by medicine and the military, my dad would bring the old punch cards home for my brother and I to play with that was in 46-47.

Phil

[Barry Phillips]

In the outboard class a friend of mine owns a 79 21' Superboat Legend with a jack and a brand new Merc Pro Max on the stern. It tends to run really lose and can be little scary at high speed. The only probem is people ask him if it's some kind OB Donzi. I chat with a guy at the launch ramp who owns a 24' Sonic which looks alot like a vintage Cig. With a worked 502 it's really fast.

BP

[Dredgeking]

rootsy, you build them and i'll buy them.

[dclassic]

The boats in the 20 foot range that have had my attention are the following...
1. Donzi Classics
2. Cigarette
3. Pantera
4. Formula
5. Magnum
6. Progression (Started in early 80's I believe, so older boats will be a problem)
Superboat and Activator are also well regarded from what I have seen.

I love the 16'-30' size range personally because of the versatility, cost, and performance. I also love the classic Arranow styling. I have gravitated to the above for build quality reasons. All have stellar reputations. I just toured Pantera and they build one heck of a solid boat, no offense to my Donzi, but the Pantera is much better built. I have heard lots of good things from the West Coast builders like Eliminator and Howard but have not had the opportunuty to check them out.

[Ryan23]

I chat with a guy at the launch ramp who owns a 24' Sonic which looks alot like a vintage Cig. With a worked 502 it's really fast.
BP

Interestingly enough, the Sonic 24SS is really a Donzi in "sheeps clothing". The hull was designed by Harry Shoell for Donzi circa 1974. The Sonic deck is slightly different than Donzi but is a close match to my 74' Spitfire. The molds were sold to Sonic in ~78'.

Engine configurations vary, mine has twin SBC's. Some were allegedly sold with a single BBC. Sonic went a little nutty and crammed twin BBC's in the first one they made. However, the majority of Sonic SS's (24') were a twin outboard arrangement. An I/O version would definately be a keeper.

Ryan

[Sofa King]

The old Eggs used to be a good hull.

[DickB]

I would agree. Mines a '99 and some things just shouldn't have been done the way donzi did them. Ken
Would you mind elaborating?

[Lenny]

Interestingly enough, the Sonic 24SS is really a Donzi in "sheeps clothing". The hull was designed by Harry Shoell for Donzi circa 1974.

Bingo :D

[CHACHI]

Would you mind elaborating?Fit and finish, trim, gauge panel is not symetrical, cutout under the dash (for your legs) not symetrical, trim around the edge of this cutout poorly installed, (screws not fully seated in wood core, 3/4 of the screws length have busted out on the back side. Gauge quality, awful, they look cheap (Livorsi II's). Little things I feel just shouldn't be there. Ken

[Rootsy]

rootsy, you build them and i'll buy them.

please, don't think that i'm not serious.... :boat:

[Dredgeking]

rootsy,

Michigan used to have several top quality boat builders in the state. now there are only a few decent ones. i've been toying with the idea of a high quality old school, low productionboat building company. similar to pantera, but on a smaller scale. build x-18 knock offs and maybe minx or 22C knockoffs to extreme quality standards.

refurbishing hulls and re-rigging them could be a good secondary income.

just a thought. there is just too much talent and history in the state with the largest number of registered boat to let it all fade away.

[Lenny]

D king, here is one about 70 miles from me ... (and a Border)

:D

http://www.boattraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/6/1/8/84979818.htm

and a newer one http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/5/4/86111554.htm

[EricG]

D king, here is one about 70 miles from me ... (and a Border)
:D
http://www.boattraderonline.com/caddetail.html?/ad-cache/6/1/8/84979818.htm


Well....I know where I am stopping tomorrow AM on my way up to the Lake. I looked for one of these for 2 years with NOTHING within 2000 miles...now that I gave up...here one is. Time to go to work on the wife :boat:

-EG

[gcarter]

Re. the '79 model.....I suspect they meant 4800 RPM, not 2800 RPM>

[Dredgeking]

My winter came early when we got 18" of snow by friday morning.

[Lenny]

:( eeeeewwwwwwwww :(

[joseph m. hahnl]

I would never recomend Apache as being a quality built boat:bonk: .
I say this because of an off shore race I saw when they where first introduced:crossfing . By the end of the race the hull had broken apart at the bow:eek!: .
It didn'ty sink and it did finish the race :boggled: "that is admirable" .But more so if it had crossed the finish line in one piece:yes:


I own the last minx ever made . I took her out of the water today and as I was walking away to get the van and trailer. I couldn't help but glance back at her and think to my self that is the best looking Donzi ever made.

To me there is only one other boat that compares in styling to a Donzi
and that would be a Scarrab I saw one that was almost identicle to my Minx just a tad longer. Do they have as good a Quality They seem to have stood the test of time also.

The Cig's are very well thought out.They have the little things that make them have a little more Bling but they are much more expensive.
joe

[kjly63]

I have a 20 ft Cig. Drove it 140 miles in 2 days up and back on the Ohio River last w/e. I ran it as hard as possible to keep up with the faster 20's. Not a bad ride at all:cool:

Ken

[Rootsy]

I would never recomend Apache as being a quality built boat:bonk: .

I say this because of an off shore race I saw when they where first introduced:crossfing . By the end of the race the hull had broken apart at the bow:eek!: .

It didn'ty sink and it did finish the race :boggled: "that is admirable" .But more so if it had crossed the finish line in one piece:yes:

You're kidding, right??? :boggled:

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/d/37487-1/Apache_2.wmv

[joseph m. hahnl]

You're kidding, right??? :boggled:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/d/37487-1/Apache_2.wmv
No!Actually I'm not the boat broke apart in a five foot chop. It was the only boat that failed,Other than operator error.
But hey if you like them. BY all means buy one.:wink:
joe

[farmer tx]

I'm still waiting on a bench seat 18'. :)

[olredalert]

Rootsy,,,Just watched the videos and couldnt help but think that we probably shouldnt glorify anything that Ben Kramer ever did. Please dont take this as a slam on you or anything like it as the videos were pretty cool to watch and I understand why you posted this, but if it hadnt been for BK I wonder what unbelieveable boats might have been designed and manufactured by Don Aronow.........Bill S

[Cuda]

Bad guy or not, that's still a bad ass video!

[boldts]

Hummm....Just wanted to add. Like cars racing on Sunday, selling on Monday, race boats are a far cry from what is usually sold to the public. They are the testing grounds for new lightweight materials. Sometimes they work.....Sometimes they don't.

In the 24' range, I've always been a fan of the Donzi models built of which are very limited in production and difficult to find. The Spitfire in blue and white is one of my all time favorites. Now, because Sonic bought the molds, they would be another boat on my list in this size range. I've also toured Pantera and fell in love with their 24' model. The Apache company was closed the day we were there, but I love their boats. Something about the colorfull headress used on most of them. Magnum in a 25' or 27' model would be a bit bigger, but are again built like tanks and again have been proven on the race courses of world.

Superboat, I like and have ridden in a 24' model. Not the same hull design as the Aronow boats, but have excellent speeds with less big horsepower needed. Like all boat companies, I've known of some issues with the boats, but the difference is that these boats are handbuilt and stood behind by the builder. These type of companies sell more by word of mouth than by advertising. So, if people are saying bad thinks about their boat, it usually gets corrected very fast.

Then there is Fountain. Reggie gets more speed from the least amount of horsepower than any other boat being built I believe. It's obviously a total different hull design, but a 24' Fountain would be on my list.

Just my own personal thoughts on this size range. The Donzi Classic will always be my favorite unless I were looking for a larger boat. A Classic is a sports car, not a SUV. They are built to go from point A to B and look great doing it. There will always be issues with any boat as manufactures push the envelope with newer products. The biggest question is, do they stand behind and fix those issues for their customers. People service is what keeps most buyers returning to a manufacture. Of course 5 or 10 people coming up to you at the launch ramp and saying: "What a cool boat! I've always wanted one of these!" sure doesn't hurt sales either. :)

[Magicallbill]

Funny you should say that Scott;
There are folks that come up to me every,and I mean every time I'm on the local lake here that like the 16 and the 18.
Whichever one I have out, they look at it, think it's cool without knowing why they think it's cool. In other words, they don't for the most part, know anything about a Donzi or it's legacy, but are attracted to it anyway.
I think that's a huge compliment to the look and design of a boat, when it spans generations that have no idea who D.Aronow is or his boats.

[Cuda]

A Classic is a sports car, not a SUV. They are built to go from point A to B and look great doing it. There will always be issues with any boat as manufactures push the envelope with newer products. The biggest question is, do they stand behind and fix those issues for their customers. People service is what keeps most buyers returning to a manufacture. Of course 5 or 10 people coming up to you at the launch ramp and saying: "What a cool boat! I've always wanted one of these!" sure doesn't hurt sales either. :)
Exactly! There isn't much storage in a 911 Porsche either. :)

[wrussellw]

Hey now!! My 911 has a trunk and back seats, it a regular SUV. With the top off I can put all kinds of stuff in it.:wink:

[Dredgeking]

Where did the pantera hulls come from?

[EricG]

Where did the pantera hulls come from?

I believe I read somewhere that the 24 came directly from the 24 Cig...

The 28 is a similar hull to the 28 cig, I'm pretty sure the running surface is about the same...but it was reworked by Harry Shoell (Pepe Nunez posted this on OSO a few years ago), as it is actually 8' wide as opposed to the narrower beam of the cig. The one thing I love about the 28 Pantera is that it is a HUGE 28....as compared to many other manufacturer's similarly marketed hulls.

I tried to look at the 24 Lenny posted earlier...but it sold last weekend. Damn...

EG

[richardoren]

Interestingly enough, the Sonic 24SS is really a Donzi in "sheeps clothing". The hull was designed by Harry Shoell for Donzi circa 1974. The Sonic deck is slightly different than Donzi but is a close match to my 74' Spitfire. The molds were sold to Sonic in ~78'.
Engine configurations vary, mine has twin SBC's. Some were allegedly sold with a single BBC. Sonic went a little nutty and crammed twin BBC's in the first one they made. However, the majority of Sonic SS's (24') were a twin outboard arrangement. An I/O version would definately be a keeper.
Ryan
If you're interested in a Sonic, the boss of the Ft Lauderdale Offshore Club is selling his with a chevy big block and a wild paintjob. Let me know by PM and I'll hook you up.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/richardoren/StusSonic.jpg
Richard

[Rootsy]

Rootsy,,,Just watched the videos and couldnt help but think that we probably shouldnt glorify anything that Ben Kramer ever did. Please dont take this as a slam on you or anything like it as the videos were pretty cool to watch and I understand why you posted this, but if it hadnt been for BK I wonder what unbelieveable boats might have been designed and manufactured by Don Aronow.........Bill S

Bill,

i was only pointing out that APACHE's aren't some flimsy POS as Joseph was stating... as far as ben kramer... he can rot for all i care... totally about the boat... not the man at the wheel...

[Lenny]

I'm still waiting on a bench seat 18'. :)
You am me both :D
Who can I blame for this lackluster performance and tardy delivery of an initial offering?...
Oh,... http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/outtahere.gif , nevermind...

[Cuda]

The one thing I love about the 28 Pantera is that it is a HUGE 28....as compared to many other manufacturer's similarly marketed hulls.
...
EG
That's a fact. My 302 Formula is damn near as big as today's 353 Formula I was rafted off to, and my buddy's 28 Pantera was damn near as big as my 302.

[farmer tx]

Lenny I hear it does'nt snow up there. Need some help slinging glass?:smash:

[vonkamp]

Just watched the videos and couldnt help but think that we probably shouldnt glorify anything that Ben Kramer ever did

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but what did he do?

Awsome video btw.

[Cuda]

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but what did he do?
Awsome video btw.
Killed Don Aronow..............allegedly.

[olredalert]

------Cuda,,, If its alledgedly why did he get convicted for it???

------Rootsy,,, No harm, no foul. I agree, 100% ........Bill S

[Cuda]

I don't know if that's exactly what he was convicted of, but another guy they convicted did say that Ben hired him.

[olredalert]

-------Cuda,,,
-------Both Kramer and Bobby Young (the trigger-puller) were convicted of manslaughter. Kramer was already in jail for life by the time he got convicted and will be there for life without parole. Good place for him, JMHO!!!........Bill S

[Cuda]

-------Cuda,,,
-------Both Kramer and Bobby Young (the trigger-puller) were convicted of manslaughter. Kramer was already in jail for life by the time he got convicted and will be there for life without parole. Good place for him, JMHO!!!........Bill S
That's what I thought, that he was already in prison, and I couldn't remember if they ever convicted him of the killing or not. What was he in for in the first place?

I agree, it's a good place for him, I just didn't know if he was convicted, hence the "allegedly". only because I didnt know the facts for sure.

[Sofa King]

I thought Ben was in for tax evasion maybe money laundering as well.