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Goochman
09-25-2006, 01:17 PM
Took a look at a pre-production (1968) 21 GT, one of supposedly only 4 built that year as production started in 1969 on that model. This is the only one of the 4 equipped with a 400 Holman Moody racing engine. The boat was in good condition inside and out, fired right up and sounded great. Trailer included. Does anyone have any more info on that model from 68-69? Any idea what it's worth?

maddad
09-25-2006, 06:37 PM
If the boat is from 68-69, that 400 can't be original. The Ford 400m didn't come out until 72. Maybe a later power upgrade?

Goochman
09-25-2006, 11:24 PM
Thanks guys! I 've done more research and made a few mistakes, the engine is a 400hp Holman Moody, not 400 CI, also, most restorers prefer the old Volvo 270 stern drive and label it "bulletproof", guess we'll find out huh? Still looking for more info and value on a 1968 prototype Donzi 21 GT, one of only 4 built and the ONLY one with the 400hp Holman Moody powerplant. Condition is average for the 38 year old vessel, and it is all original. 10 hours on the engine since major overhaul. Thanks!

MOP
09-26-2006, 05:17 AM
Nope!

BUIZILLA
09-26-2006, 06:48 AM
how can there be 4 prototype's??

BERTRAM BOY
09-26-2006, 01:24 PM
Poodle is 100% correct. A hull number would be a good start.

If it is in fact a 1968, It could have a hull number behind the dash, under the deck, and/or on the boweye backing block. It would be hand written in black marker.

Goochman
09-28-2006, 10:58 AM
Looks like the Hull # is MDZ4138C then "B" or "8" then 68, had a hard time deciphering the 3rd to last letter/number. Hope this helps.

Rootsy
09-28-2006, 11:27 AM
Looks like the Hull # is MDZ4138C then "B" or "8" then 68, had a hard time deciphering the 3rd to last letter/number. Hope this helps.

where did you find that number at????

Morgan's Cloud
09-28-2006, 11:33 AM
This sounds like a good time for a few pics :wink:

Goochman
09-28-2006, 01:03 PM
Check em out and give me some feedback.

Rootsy
09-28-2006, 01:23 PM
looks like a GT21... loooks like an FE ford... but the HIN you gave puzzles me...

should be DMR for a prefix and it wouldn't have a DMR HIN until early 70's... early GT-s would have been just 21-XX or something.

Goochman
09-28-2006, 01:31 PM
This entire vessel is confusing but it's starting to make some sense. As I said, it's supposedly a one of a kind, built pre-production in 1968. Not much info about these things prior to production, so not much to go on for HIN format. The "68" at the end proves production year. Again the HIN is MDZ41383C868. Thanks for everything so far, I've got a survey scheduled. Will keep you posted.

Rootsy
09-28-2006, 01:39 PM
This entire vessel is confusing but it's starting to make some sense. As I said, it's supposedly a one of a kind, built pre-production in 1968. Not much info about these things prior to production, so not much to go on for HIN format. The "68" at the end proves production year. Again the HIN is MDZ41383C868. Thanks for everything so far, I've got a survey scheduled. Will keep you posted.

HM 400's (427 FE) at that time were V drive equipped... not sterndrives...

tell us the story as you know it... behind this boat please?

Goochman
09-28-2006, 01:48 PM
Yes I am aware that production HM 400's were in fact V-Drives, another puzzling fact. I do not know if a '68 pre-production HM 400 was V or stern drive though. Could it be possible that Donzi decided to go to the V-drives for the HM 300 and 400 engines on production models after this prototype was built? Or do you suspect it may be either a HM 235 or 290 hp engine? How would I be able to tell for sure? Thanks!

Rootsy
09-28-2006, 01:53 PM
i believe HM provided engine and drives as a package... kinda like mercruiser and volvo do today... 235 and 290's were SBF's and obviously, distinctly different from the FE's.

DId you get the HIN from a title or registration? if so.. don't trust it... look at the baot itself.. if it has a HIN it should be embossed into the hull... starboard stern... otherwise... written in felt tip, likely under the deck on the back of the dash, etc etc...

does the engine have a tag and number on it? how about the sterndrive? is the current color scheme the original or has the boat been refinished? others may be able to help you if you have anymore information...

Rootsy
09-28-2006, 02:05 PM
BTW, i looked up MDZ... the MDZ prefix is for Maryland Homemade Boats...

vrod02
09-28-2006, 06:35 PM
If the boat is from 68-69, that 400 can't be original. The Ford 400m didn't come out until 72. Maybe a later power upgrade?

What? Donzi Dave has the skinny about H/M, he worked there. His 19 Nova Marine Had the 427 Big power. From what he has told me lots of different packages were special ordered in this time period.

vrod02
09-28-2006, 06:46 PM
Yes I am aware that production HM 400's were in fact V-Drives, another puzzling fact. I do not know if a '68 pre-production HM 400 was V or stern drive though. Could it be possible that Donzi decided to go to the V-drives for the HM 300 and 400 engines on production models after this prototype was built? Or do you suspect it may be either a HM 235 or 290 hp engine? How would I be able to tell for sure? Thanks!

It should have a alum. tag on the eng with the cam grind #. Call Lee at Holman Moody he'll look it up for ya. Great Guy.

call (704)583-2888 or
contact lee@holmanmoody.com
Fax number (704)583-2890

Goochman
09-29-2006, 12:11 AM
Hey, you guys have been great! All the confusion is finally making sense, and in the 11th hour at that! The HIN pointing to Maryland homemade boats and the multiple discrepancies in everything else are pointing towards a kit boat that is not in fact a Donzi prototype at all. What a great knock off huh? Had many of us fooled. Can I be sure at this point that the vessel is and imposter or should I look at other clues? Much apprectiated!

Rootsy
09-29-2006, 06:41 AM
she's a GT.... someone has just gotten creative in the drivetrain and storytelling :)

Goochman
09-29-2006, 10:21 AM
Ok, so what is the next logical step to ensure I am getting a Donzi classic and not a kit boat? I assume more #'s as suggested correct? Would a knowlegeable surveyor be helpful also? Again, thanks for all the info thus far.

Goochman
10-01-2006, 10:10 PM
Got some more pics and the info off the HM engine tag. Owner tells me sterndrive is volvo 280. You may need to save engine tag to your puter and enlarge to read the #'s. All feedback appreciated. Here ya go!

Holman Moody engine tag reads:
Serial: A8HM-1021-1-SFW T
C PM-400-4V NO 5
C.R. 10.5:1 TIM 14

Pics:

RedDog
10-01-2006, 10:58 PM
she's a GT.... someone has just gotten creative in the drivetrain and storytelling :)

Whatever - it is a really good looking and unique ride - that would turn a lot of heads

Rootsy
10-02-2006, 06:31 AM
Whatever - it is a really good looking and unique ride - that would turn a lot of heads

not sure what that was all about but i don't think i ever put the boat down... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

RedDog
10-02-2006, 09:35 AM
not sure what that was all about but i don't think i ever put the boat down... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sorry Rootsy - misunderstanding - I wasn't trying to indicate that you were putting it down

vrod02
10-02-2006, 04:59 PM
That is a kick-arse boat! The 280 will handle the power no problem! I have some more brand new H/M logo's for the Transom plate if yours is missing. There was no diff in the outdrive just the emblem.

Goochman
10-04-2006, 09:17 PM
OK Guys, i bought the boat. Anybody got the skinny on that serial # and other info from the engine tag? Would like to change out the distributor to something like the MSD pro billet marine. Will this work OK? The Guy i bought it from said the only things he didn't replace on the engine were the distributor and coil, and the generator. I would really like to do away with the points and condenser thing for better spark and reliability. Whats the most common ignition setup on these old Ford FE's?

maddad
10-05-2006, 11:56 AM
Hey goochman, sweet looking boat.
The pic below is the msd dist. and 6m2 control from when I ran a 351 cleveland in my Donzi. The parts, I'm almost positive, are the same for the FE's. The spring, bushing, counter weight assy. inside looks like hell but works fine.
If you're interested, they can be had for shipping, a donation to this site and a cold one, if we ever meet.
Mike

Craig S
10-05-2006, 12:42 PM
aluminum intake. aluminum heads???

This site is pretty good for me. I sorta like FE stuff.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/

also known as fordfe.com

Goochman
10-05-2006, 03:38 PM
And I thought I had a 390!........ Lee Writes...

Hello, Yes it is a standard 427 marine engine. This is a lot better engine then a Chris Craft 427. We used the same quality block & internal parts as the production High performance Ford cars at the time.

You should have the valve sets changed to use unleaded fuel.

The last 427 block like this one I bought was $4500 for just the block. It is a 1968 rated at 400 hp The tim.14 is the ign timing 14 deg. before top Dead center .

Lee Holman

How about that sh*t fellas! I think I got me quite a unique ride!!! A 400HP 427 H/M with a Volvo I/O in 1968!

Thanks to everybody who assisted me in this journey. It wasn't easy cause the boat and it's configuration wasn't supposed to exist. It was from the valuable info I got right here. Thanks, a donation will be made.

BERTRAM BOY
10-05-2006, 04:36 PM
You still haven't answered the question of the hull number. The hull number would verify the build year.

Goochman
10-05-2006, 07:56 PM
You still haven't answered the question of the hull number. The hull number would verify the build year.

I Gave the hull # quite a ways back, did you miss it? I don't have the actual Donzi hull # because they didn't stamp em in the transom pre '72. Guess nobody ever found the "black felt tip" serial number up under the dash or whatever. The serial # on the boat NOW is MDZ41383C868 which the last 2 digits are production year, The title says '68, and Lee Holman at Holman Moody says motor is '68, thats enough sixty eights to satisfy me.

vrod02
10-05-2006, 08:44 PM
I think the point is 427 H/m 400 H.P. has nothing to do with V-drive. Bellhousing and rev. plumbing is the only diff.Congrats. goochman and You can have the insig. for 30.00

Morgan's Cloud
10-06-2006, 07:11 AM
None of the early records indicate a boat being shipped from the factory with the engine s/n you have, or ndeed with a HM 400.. However, several of them show hulls shipped sans power.. When you have the time, it would be real interesting to see if the hull number is under the dash, or up under the front deck somewhere.. Have you looked behind the cushions for a foil tag? There may be one there still, might shed some light on the boat..
BTW, VERY cool snag!! The 427 in it is worth what the boat cost you most likely...
IF Goochman has'nt been around long enough to do any extensive record searching here I thought I would attach the following thread to help him understand some of the reaction to his thread.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33699&page=2&highlight=Bench+seat+hornet
Remember this one guys ?
Adam did'nt know that there might be an authentic Donzi HIN under the dash and was going by the number on the transom. A number it turns out that was put on elsewhere when the boat went into a state that required something 'official' on thte transom.
The info here provided valuable in identifying the boat for him.

BERTRAM BOY
10-06-2006, 08:49 AM
Goochman,
Just because you boat has HIN assigned from the state doesn't make it a 1968. It very well COULD be, but more definative documentation would remove doubt.

MDZ41383C868 IS NOT a factory assigned Hull number, and therefore doesn't prove that the boat was built in 1968.



Also, I'm sure your engine is a 1968. However, that doesn't mean it was originally installed in that particular boat.

BUIZILLA
10-06-2006, 09:22 AM
sooooooooooo..

no 270's in 1968/1969...

definately no 280's...

no FE sterndrives built in 68-69, only FE inboard V drives....

no 68-69 FE 400's documented anyways...

no hull numbers transom stamped in the 68-69 theatre of events...

Maryland experimental numbers for title work now, which couldn't have started until the FED mandate in the early 70's anyways....

did anybody check to see if this was an original V drive GT21, converted to sterndrive at some point, with another VIN attached at that time, since the original VIN possibly couldn't be found??

interesting combo nonetheless...

JH

Goochman
10-06-2006, 03:17 PM
Thanks for all the info as usual, thats why I'm here. I will scour this thing best I can to resolve the burning question. The previous owner found this boat in the weeds in NJ. He did alot of resto work to her. I did question him about the HIN, says he never found one and he was up under the dash when installing new guages. The interior was gutted and re-done. Attaching some pics.

maddad
10-07-2006, 08:29 AM
Goochman, as soon as I got your pm, I did some more checking. I was wrong. My set up will work on 429-460, 385 family motors, not your fe 427.
Sorry for the bad info.
Mike

Goochman
10-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Hey, thanks anyway, nice offer on your part. I did some checking too and I pretty much came up with the same conclusion. So what would you recommend I use in this application? Any suggestions? :confused:

Rootsy
10-07-2006, 07:07 PM
Hey, thanks anyway, nice offer on your part. I did some checking too and I pretty much came up with the same conclusion. So what would you recommend I use in this application? Any suggestions? :confused:

what is in the motor right now for a distributor... if it is a mallory you can probably just get a unlite kit to put in the existing points distributor... otherwise you can look into a pentronix conversion kit to get rid of the contact setup :) either way you are looking at around 100 - 150 buckaroos... :) hope that helps.

Goochman
10-08-2006, 02:48 AM
what is in the motor right now for a distributor... if it is a mallory you can probably just get a unlite kit to put in the existing points distributor... otherwise you can look into a pentronix conversion kit to get rid of the contact setup :) either way you are looking at around 100 - 150 buckaroos... :) hope that helps.
Thanks for the info Rootsy! What if I wanted to go with a coil less setup as I have seen on the internet, such as the Performance Distributors Ford DUI setup which combines high output electronic ignition with a built in coil? Just hook up a 12 volt power supply and done? Has this setup been embraced for a high performance marine setup? There are some other marine distributors offered by MSD, worth looking into? Thanks again!

Goochman
10-11-2006, 08:43 PM
Well, it was raining like a bitch so were gonna have to wait on more interior/engine pics!!!!!! Whats the best way to get rid of that bottom paint, looks like crap.

Morgan's Cloud
10-12-2006, 07:00 AM
Removing bottom paint , especially if it was applied properly , is a very labour intensive and messy job. Would you be doing it yourself ?
Cuda can tell you how much fun it is .... Only to then find out that maybe if you wait a while it will fall off on it's own ! :D
I wonder who installed those trim tabs ?
Steve

Goochman
10-16-2006, 08:24 PM
Removing bottom paint , especially if it was applied properly , is a very labour intensive and messy job. Would you be doing it yourself ?
Cuda can tell you how much fun it is .... Only to then find out that maybe if you wait a while it will fall off on it's own ! :D
I wonder who installed those trim tabs ?
Steve
Well, I figured as much! I talked to Jamie at Lakeside restorations and he suggested soda blasting it off. Then the condition of the hull/gelcoat can be determined after that. But I think the hull is fine and the soda blast shouldnt damage it from what I'm told. Now I gotta get a price on that!

Morgan's Cloud
10-17-2006, 07:11 AM
Yes , that's probably the best way to go. I can confirm what type of finish sand blasting leaves you with but have never seen a soda blasted bottom. I have heard that it is much less damaging ... Environmentally it is also a whole lot better than harsh chemical strippers.
Unfortunately you wont know if the bottom was previously sanded untill the paint is off.
A long while back Interlux used to make a bottom prep called 'Sandingless Primer' .. maybe others did too . It did'nt scratch up bottoms , although it was'nt a primer as such , at least not like I'm used to .. Maybe you'll be lucky and this was what was used .
Steve
ps/ I enjoyed those pictures of the boat when it was yellow and 'abandoned'.
It obviously has had a lot of work done to it somewhere along the way.
Steve

Goochman
10-18-2006, 11:28 PM
Yes , that's probably the best way to go. I can confirm what type of finish sand blasting leaves you with but have never seen a soda blasted bottom. I have heard that it is much less damaging ... Environmentally it is also a whole lot better than harsh chemical strippers.
Unfortunately you wont know if the bottom was previously sanded untill the paint is off.
A long while back Interlux used to make a bottom prep called 'Sandingless Primer' .. maybe others did too . It did'nt scratch up bottoms , although it was'nt a primer as such , at least not like I'm used to .. Maybe you'll be lucky and this was what was used .
Steve
ps/ I enjoyed those pictures of the boat when it was yellow and 'abandoned'.
It obviously has had a lot of work done to it somewhere along the way.
Steve

Hey Steve, glad you enjoyed those pics! The guy I bought the boat from supplied em....yes, he obviously did alot of work on her. Well, he has a waterfront property on a freshwater river in MD and that's the reason for the friggin bottom paint. He would drop her in springtime and she would float at his dock until autumn. It was a neccessary evil for his application. Now it's gonna be a royal pain for me! Will keep you posted on the soda blast and if I decide on taking that route.