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View Full Version : Winterize with a full tank or empty?



Dredgeking
09-15-2006, 03:32 PM
I was always told you winterize the boat with a full tank of stabilized fuel. Minimizes the room for condensation to occur.

Just looking for opinions.

Schnook
09-15-2006, 03:54 PM
Since the new ethanol mixtures are more likely to absorb water, I'm thinking about winterizing empty or possibly fill up with avgas since it doesn't have ethanol. Don't know how much it goes for these days though, could get pricey.

Mr X
09-15-2006, 04:09 PM
Since the new ethanol mixtures are more likely to absorb water, I'm thinking about winterizing empty or possibly fill up with avgas since it doesn't have ethanol. Don't know how much it goes for these days though, could get pricey.

A full tank of stabilized fuel is the way to go.

Avgas would be a BIG MISTAKE....it will hurt a lot of things from fuel pump to
exhaust valves, and many things in between.

mrfixxall
09-15-2006, 04:48 PM
when i do my cust boats,winterize on a empty tank...Beendoing it that way in my boat for 21 years and havnt had a problem...by the way its a 1977 and still has the original steel tank....fuel cap is sealed and i have a 1 way check valve in the over flo tube,how will moisture get the tank if its sealed? i also drop in a few bottles oh heet in the tank just in case...

p.s. storage life for the newer fuels is only good for 2 to 3 months...

MOP
09-15-2006, 04:54 PM
A full tank with stabilizer is the way to go especially with metal tanks that can sweat and corrode, alcohol is extremely hygroscopic. With every temperature change the tank will breath a little as the air expands and contracts, for all tanks it is very important to tape off the vent to prevent moisture build up over the storage period.

Greg
09-15-2006, 05:05 PM
I've always been advised to stay away from av-gas. It's not what's in it that will hurt your motor, it's what's not in it that does the damage.

MOP
09-15-2006, 05:21 PM
when i do my cust boats,winterize on a empty tank...Beendoing it that way in my boat for 21 years and havnt had a problem...by the way its a 1977 and still has the original steel tank....fuel cap is sealed and i have a 1 way check valve in the over flo tube,how will moisture get the tank if its sealed? i also drop in a few bottles oh heet in the tank just in case...
p.s. storage life for the newer fuels is only good for 2 to 3 months...

I agree with the 2-3 months octane life but why would you add Heet which will possibly draw more moisture into the system.

Donziweasel
09-15-2006, 05:41 PM
I thought Heet (isopropyl alcohol) removed moisture. We use it in Wyoming whenever it gets below -10 in everything from cars to snowmobiles to snowblowers. Gas will freeze (or the moisture in it will) and Heet prevents that.

mrfixxall
09-15-2006, 06:33 PM
I thought Heet (isopropyl alcohol) removed moisture. We use it in Wyoming whenever it gets below -10 in everything from cars to snowmobiles to snowblowers. Gas will freeze (or the moisture in it will) and Heet prevents that.

Heet:yes:

Mop,when i restored my x18 i sent the tank out and had it pressure tested and checked for rust..The guy at the rediator shop said that it was perfect and no rust amd no leaks..o by the way i also use moisture socks over the winter also..

BigGrizzly
09-15-2006, 07:50 PM
A full tank with stabilizer. there are several reasons. The first is condinsation a full tank keeps this down. Another is for older tanls it keeps metal from rusting. the less air in the tank the better.

BillG
09-15-2006, 09:14 PM
The latest that I have read is that you should not store with fuel in the tank if possible. The ethanol fuel goes bad in as little as 4 to 6 weeks. It also will form different levels of gas and alchohol and water and the water will be at the bottom.
Just my 2 cents.

BillG:confused:

FUELPOWERED
09-15-2006, 09:25 PM
When I park my 1985, I leave it with 5 gallons of 110 octane leaded fuel only in it plus sta-bil. I have not had to cut the boat in half due to a fuel tank issue.

Magicallbill
09-16-2006, 02:05 AM
This is an exact replica of what I've been hearing for the last couple months.
50% for a full tank
50% for an empty one..

I have filled my 18 up for the last 5 years,my tech adds the Stabil in the winterizing process..No problems at all.
I am a bit more concerned with the increased presence of Ethanol this year.
Doesn't the Stabil counteract the moisture that the Ethanol causes?

goatee
09-16-2006, 02:50 AM
A FULL TANK! (note the time and please read with a british accent)
a full tank will not only give you a full spectrum of the tanks capabilities over the winter but,,,,will also hold a secure future of petrol that will no deed be far more advaced in monetary value than will "today"......
purchasing fuel in the future will no doubt, not only compromise our behalf, but heed it's existsance.
"the value of a herd is not symtomized by the value of it's bucks, and the weight of it's offspring, but it's will to survive and florish"...............j.h.heling.
i'm not sure what he meant exactly but,,,,i'm sure he said it with a scotish accent!!!! and thats all that matters now.


if it were a smaller tank,,,,i'd say bleed it for all it's worf.
but today,,,,fill it and hope for a beta tomoroww.

roadtrip se
09-16-2006, 09:08 AM
for full and stabil. Looking for wood... never had a problem with spring start-up.

What is up with all the winterization talk any way? Some of the best running is in the fall.
If the weather is 60 or higher, I'm throwing on my Alantic Coast Donzi windshirt (shameless plug for great gear, see your Doctor for more details) and heading out to enjoy the fall colors.

Don't have to worry about stabilizing your gas, if you're still burning it! And before the crowing starts from all of the southern boys about how great your weather is, don't make me pull out the pictures of you huddled around the heater when the temps were in the 70's at AOTH6 this year! Real men dig cooler weather boating, so get out there and run her out. Plenty of time to winterize in NOVEMBER!

gcarter
09-16-2006, 09:22 AM
This is just an idea as I've not tried it.....but has anyone considered an empty tank and hanging a bag of silica gel down the filler hose?

mrfixxall
09-16-2006, 10:45 AM
i think it would have to hang in the tank to do any good and most tanks have an antisiphon screen plus many if the gel ever entered the system boy would that be bad. I was thinking more hi tech like some inert gas filling the void in an empty tank hence no room for moisture to form then sealing the tank then when you fill the tank the inert gas just goes out the vent
just a question the guy who run bone dry do they have to prime the system to get running or bleed air out of the system.
and another thought thinking about a check valve in the vent line do you check or empty the line ahead of the valve so it still works as a vent???

No priming needed on mine,i have a electric fuel pump...My check valve only lets fuel out..I put it on th keep the water from the waves forcing its way back in the tank...after i drain the tank i blow into the vent with a little air to make sure the ball seats.:wink:

mlbarnow
10-08-2006, 01:24 AM
Been dealing with this question all year at a marine supply shop in NJ.
First and foremost consult your mechanic or engine manufacture,
with that said the most common product in our area for week to week
use is Star Tron by Starbrite added when you fill up. Star Tron helps
maintain the octane level and deals with the water. For winter storage
we are hearing that you want as little ethanol in your tank and add a
new product from MDR called E-Zorb. Ethanol over the long term will
split into gas water and alcohol which E-Zorb was developed to deal with. It is recommended that you use 10 micron fuel separators (we carry Mallory).
I have a 1990 Donzi F-23 with a 1990 225 hp Evenrude and I have
followed the above steps with no problems so far.
Mike

Barry Eller
10-08-2006, 05:53 AM
Move to Florida, No worries mate!

Run all winter and the gas won't get old.

:yes: :yippie:

Just Say N20
10-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Interesting reading. This issue is becoming more critical because I believe at last count there were 33 states that are totally 10% ethanol fuel. This is up significantly over just the past few years. We have all seen the pictures of a clear glass jar showing how after only "X-amount-of-time" you can clearly see three distinct layers of gas, alcohol and water have seperated. In these type of pictures, even in the small amount of fluid in the jar, there appears to be a significant (if sucked into your fuel system, it will wreak havoc) amount of water.

I don't know who produced these type of pictures (for example, fuel additive manufacturers?), and whether or not the amounts of each layer was "doctored" to show the desired effect more clearly. But seperation does occur. I am hesitant to give lots of credibility to statements of "been doing this for 25 years and never had a problem" variety, simply because E-10 gas hasn't been around that long, so their solution has worked well for the majority of time, because it was only conventional gas in the tank.

Believe me, I am extremely interested in the best approach, because in a couple of weeks I have to "bed" our 38 Carver Aft Cabin, which holds 280 gallons of fuel. And, in the past, I have stored our boats in heated indoor storage, so condensation wasn't an issue because the temp is constant for the entire storage period. I left the tanks mostly empty with fuel stabilizer, and never had any problems, but we have only had E-10 gas for a couple of years in Michigan. The Carver is going to sit outside this winter.

In the past week I have read there are no fuel additives available that can deal with this, and the opposing view. Both were stated as fact in leading Boating magazines.

So, keep the ideas coming.

BUIZILLA
10-08-2006, 03:29 PM
I don't think anyone knows where we are headed with this situation right now... and i'm very serious about that. In the boating theatre there is a lot of lull time, whereas in a car arena, it's used, and refueled, much more often, sometimes daily.

I do a LOT of gas injector clean/flow work now. This past week alone, I did 11 sets of injectors, all but one set was for a marine application. I usually don't do 11 marine sets in a month or two. I have gone more than a month in the past, and only done one set. Friday I did two sets for a 502 Merc for a guy from Indiana down here for the Columbus day regatta. Both engines croaked on Thursday, FULL of junk in the injector screens and return regulator screens. I *think* (just guessing) the ethanol is delaminating the internal plating in the fuel rails and it's plugging up everything. The really bad part, is that in a two cycle outboard, when the screens get restricted, it runs lean on that hole, and BINGO, there goes a piston.... not a good scene guys. And it's gonna get worse, MUCH worse..

JH

joseph m. hahnl
10-14-2006, 06:33 PM
The full tank method is derived from the theory that full contact of the metal with gasoline will prevent corrossion. Obviously that is a valid theory. I think in todays world the ethanol is an issue. a full tank is also safer than a low one"Explosion Factor" Yet a sprung leak over winter with a full tank could be catistrofic. As far as Heet Goes Us Northerns live buy it. We use it in every thing with out problems
"we really don't expect You sun belt junkies to under stand"

The best method would be Keep the boat in a climate controlled enviorment.
That is not an option for most of us.

I think the best solution is to run the fuel out as low as possible.
Fog the tank with minimal amount of combustable oil .The oil should cling to the tank preventing corrosion.In spring burn one full tank with dry gas before you change the plugs and your good to go.

That is what my plan is.

Ps it's easier to get rid of 5 gallons of bad gas than 40 gallons:wink:




joe

Rich
10-19-2006, 12:53 PM
One fuel treatment manufacturers 2 cents

Pros and Cons of 10% Ethanol in Gas


If not already, you will soon be using 10% Ethanol as a replacement oxygenation additive for the discontinued MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) in gasoline. With this change comes a multitude of questions and misinformation within the boating community that needs to be addressed. The fact is that there will be many more problems with boats’ fuel tanks than there will be with automobiles’ and the reason for this is the requirement for marine fuel tanks to be “vented.” This allows the Ethanol to absorb moisture from the humidity entering through the vent, thereby adding additional condensation to the fuel. Following are some of the known facts about Ethanol when mixed into gasoline at the present designated ratio of 10% by volume (E-10).
Ethanol attracts more water than plain gasoline.
Ethanol contains only about 2/3 as much energy as plain gas, therefore getting poorer mileage (approx. 3%) for the same volume of gasoline.
It only takes about 3/10 of 1 percent of water (.3%) to begin separating the water and 75+% of the Ethanol from the fuel, which then drops to the bottom of the tank with the water. There it forms what is known as a “single phase separation” layer of water and Ethanol under the gasoline. This small amount of water equates to slightly under 4 oz of water per 10 gals of gasoline.
When the water/Ethanol layer at the bottom of the tank rises to the level of the fuel pickup, it will be sucked up into the engine, shutting the engine down. The water/Ethanol layer WILL NOT support combustion.
MDR’s Water Probe Indicator (MDR-566) can determine if water is present at the bottom of a fuel tank, and in fact, how much water is there as long as the tank can be dipped straight down. If necessary, removing the fuel sender provides a typical access for this test.
Ethanol (E-10) adds about 2 points of octane to the gasoline when totally in solution, but then loses that octane when the Ethanol drops to the bottom of the tank with water.
E-10 evaporates more quickly than plain gasoline, thereby losing some of the added octane in the process.
E-10 will deteriorate fiberglass fuel tanks (pre-1985), allowing the residue to eventually clog up fuel systems and intake valves enough to seriously damage engines.
Tests have shown that MDR’s NEWEST PRODUCT, E-ZORB (MDR-574), will totally emulsify the phased separation of water and Ethanol at the bottom of a fuel tank right back into the fuel, allowing it to pass through the finest filters and safely burn through with the fuel. At the same time, the octane lost when the Ethanol went to the bottom of the tank with the water will also be replaced back into the fuel.
E-ZORB, LIKE ALL MDR FUEL ADDITIVES, CONTAINS NO ALCOHOL OR METHANOL.
A simple field test will prove how well E-Zorb works to remove standing water from E-10 gas. Components needed:
• A clean, clear quart-size glass jar with cap
• E-10 gasoline (10 oz minimum)
• Water
• E-Zorb

Add approximately 10 oz of E-10 gasoline to the glass jar (not quite 1/3 full)
Add two (2) capfuls of water to the jar using the E-Zorb cap. This should immediately drop to the bottom (see Fig. 1).
Add two (2) capfuls of E-Zorb to the jar and shake or stir. The fuel should become cloudy and the water/ethanol solution on the bottom should turn white. (See Fig. 2.) The cloudy fuel indicates the E-Zorb is working but
needs more to complete the emulsification process.
Adding another ½-capful of E-Zorb and stirring should clear the fuel without any water/ethanol remaining on the bottom (Fig. 3).
Should the fuel stay cloudy, an additional ½-capful of E-Zorb is necessary to complete the emulsification. The amount of E-Zorb needed changes slightly due to the different amounts of ethanol in the fuel as the E-Zorb must emulsify the total phase separated solution of water and ethanol on the bottom. Once clear, the fuel is as good as new and can be used accordingly.


Figure 3

Winterizing and Prolonged Storage of E-10 Gasoline
Any vented fuel tank containing E-10 gas that stands for longer than 30-45 days should be treated with the following winterizing procedures to maintain the integrity of the fuel.

Try to determine if there is any standing water/ethanol on the bottom of the tank. Check fuel filters, water/ separators, or use MDR’s Water Probe Indicator (MDR-566) if the tank can be dipped straight down.
If no water is indicated, E-Zorb should be added at the suggested ratio of 1 oz to 20 gallons of E-10 gas to compensate for condensation during storage. If an excessive amount of water is indicated it should be safely pumped out and discarded according to local hazardous waste disposal methods. Then add an equal amount of E-Zorb to the remaining phased out water/ethanol on the bottom and agitate fuel (per “3” below). When the fuel clears all remaining water/ethanol has been emulsified back into the fuel (Fig. 3 above). Clear fuel can be determined by checking a fuel sample from the fuel filter or water separator after running the engine for a short time.
Now add MDR’s Gas Stor-N-Start to the tank at a ratio of 1 oz to 5 gallons of gas with enough Stor-N-Start to treat the tank when totally full. Immediately thereafter fill the tank with fresh E-10 gasoline, which should be enough to agitate the E-Zorb and Stor-N-Start, dispersing them throughout the tank. However, if the tank is already full or only needs a small amount of new E-10 gas, insert an air hose to the bottom of the tank allowing the air pressure to bubble the gas for 5-10 minutes. This should be sufficient to complete the agitation process. Then, after running the engine for 5-10 minutes to circulate the treated fuel throughout the fuel system and lastly fogging the engine, the entire system is winterized and ready for Spring.



http://www.mdramazon.com/