Turbo Charger

[Donziweasel]

I know a few members are running turbo's on thier classics. Can anyone tell me what brand are good for a 5.7L 350 and what kind of results you achieved? Also, how bad is the turbo lag?

[Donziweasel]

I've known about the procharger superchargers, but I was looking into a turbo, not supercharger.

[gpapich]

I'm not aware of any, but a family friend is related to the developer of the Trident deck boat. This boat has a unique twin-turbo Brummet Marine single engine EFI setup running into a splitter gearbox and then dual jet drives.

Here's the link:
http://www.tridentboats.com/deckboat_revolution/Twin-turbo-engine.php

Very interesting. I'm a big fan of EFI after studying it in turbocharged street applications. As long as you have some sort of data logging to allow you to effectively tune your setup, EFI's the way to go.

Have fun.

G.

[Rodger]

You are probably interested in a new or modern setup.
I'm running an old Banks twin turbo unit that is about 30 years old. It uses Rayjay 'E' series turbos, a single Holley 800, and it's intercooled. Speed increase in the boat was a little over 25 MPH. I'm running a big block and the turbos are sized for the engine without any waste-gates therefore I don't have immediate full boost especially from dead stop. Once plained off the boost comes on very fast, almost like it did have waste-gates, providing very impressive mid range. A friend of mine had a 20' Cigarette with a 5.7 SB and ran a twin turbo setup but with no intercooling. It was an M&W Gear Co. unit and the turbos replaced the risers on the Merc manifolds. Considering that the unit was rather simple, especially since it used Merc exhaust system, he still had good results. His boat originally did about 55 MPH and with the turbos about 75. He ran this setup a little over 20 years ago. I know there are much more advanced units available now that probably offer more impressive results but they most likely are expensive. I don't know how their price compares to mechanically driven superchargers. Since I was willing to settle for an older unit, which I have had for 19 years myself, I did the entire upgrade for less than it would cost just to buy a set of performance manifolds. The Banks unit included manifolds along with all the other parts. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Ryan23]

I'm running a big block and the turbos are sized for the engine without any waste-gates therefore I don't have immediate full boost especially from dead stop. Once plained off the boost comes on very fast, almost like it did have waste-gates, providing very impressive mid range.


Wastegates divert the exhaust energy away from the turbine wheel via a spring loaded poppet type valve. By diverting the exhaust, they limit the maximum boost level output by the turbocharger. *Not* having a wastegate would make for *better* turbo response but would sacrifice boost control. Are you sure your turbos don't have internal wastegates? They are built into the turbine housing and usually have a vac diaphragm and rod attached to them on the outside.

What it sounds like you are experiencing is turbo lag. This is a byproduct of relying on exhaust energy to spool the power adder. Properly sized, turbo lag can be managed fairly well. It all depends on power goals, displacement and of course, proper tuning.

Ryan

[gcarter]

Do most turbo installations require an open/no engine hatch because of heat?

[Donziweasel]

How does your engine run after 30 years of turbo charging? Have you had to rebuild?

Just wondering what is the best option for me. The Procharger is a great system from what I hear, but is ass expensive. I think they start around $4800.00. I was wondering if turbo charging was less expensive.

My wife gave me the green light on either a supercharger or turbo. I said it would make the boat run better with better gas mileage. I left out the part that it should make my 16C about 10-20 mph faster:wink:

Anyone running a Procharger? How hard was the installation? Does it come with an intercooler or is this and option? Looks like it mounts on the front of the engine instead of on top. Will it fit on my 5.7L 350 without modifying the hatch?

[Ed Donnelly]

George; My 16 didn't have a hatch,as, the intercooler and carb were way too high. The Criterion had the hatch as everything fit under. The heat warped my mylar mirror on the hatch (as Big Grizz noticed) so I had to install water jackets over the turbos.
Wastegates are an add on on all older turbos. To eliminate lag, you go with smaller turbos to bring in the boost sooner,then the waste gate starts to dump before you build up too much pressure. I ran 18 lbs on the Criterion, and 28 lbs on the 16. An air to water intercooler is a must.......Ed

[gcarter]

How does your engine run after 30 years of turbo charging? Have you had to rebuild?
Just wondering what is the best option for me. The Procharger is a great system from what I hear, but is ass expensive. I think they start around $4800.00. I was wondering if turbo charging was less expensive.
My wife gave me the green light on either a supercharger or turbo. I said it would make the boat run better with better gas mileage. I left out the part that it should make my 16C about 10-20 mph faster:wink:
Anyone running a Procharger? How hard was the installation? Does it come with an intercooler or is this and option? Looks like it mounts on the front of the engine instead of on top. Will it fit on my 5.7L 350 without modifying the hatch?
Not on a 16!!!!:eek!: :eek!:

[LKSD]

How does your engine run after 30 years of turbo charging? Have you had to rebuild?
Just wondering what is the best option for me. The Procharger is a great system from what I hear, but is ass expensive. I think they start around $4800.00. I was wondering if turbo charging was less expensive.
My wife gave me the green light on either a supercharger or turbo. I said it would make the boat run better with better gas mileage. I left out the part that it should make my 16C about 10-20 mph faster:wink:
Anyone running a Procharger? How hard was the installation? Does it come with an intercooler or is this and option? Looks like it mounts on the front of the engine instead of on top. Will it fit on my 5.7L 350 without modifying the hatch?

If you thought the procharger was expensive... LOL Wait until you price out a "proper" turbo system for a marine application.. Granted they work, but You will have several issues to deal with.

1. extra heat that can cause problems. You will need Intercoolers, & adequate air flow to the engine compartment for safety & air supply to the engine.

2. Space & plumbing, they generally take up more space than a procharger or whipple due to their layouts.

3. Parts. a lot of the stuff you will need will have to be custom.. or made to fit..

Again turbos are good, but it is not as simple as it sounds to do on a boat.. Typically they are used in marine diesel applications because off added efficency & power where space is not a large issue.. In gas applications it is usually in large offshore race boats that are looking for mid & top end speed & power.. Smaller race boats that have them are also custom installed..

If you are serious about doing this to yours you search out an old gale banks marine turbo system.. But it wont be as cheap as you think to do by the time you are done..

A procharger or whipple if you are running EFI, or Blower shop set up if you are running a carb would be your best bet..

Once again this is just my 2 cents.. Hope it helps you.. :)

Jamie / Lakeside

[Ed Donnelly]

George; Hell yes a 16!!!
I was the cats ass when it came to speed, until that damn Geo came along.
I have the utmost respect for him. He took his time and did it right.
I soiled more shorts than I care to remember.
90 I was terrified
100 time to change shorts

JW The cost to do turbos was a lot, but, nothing compared to the money spent adding the pad,step,E-drive steering, etc. etc. I went with the turbos because noone was doing it. Eveyone goes supercharger.
Would I do it again?? With the companies building good carbs for turbos,yes.
But exhaust manifolds are very hard to come by.
So I will stay with my Procharger.
I also think the turbos were an easier install with the suck through system..
Why don't the make suck through, rather, than blow through on superchargers?? .......Ed

[BigGrizzly]

Just to add another vender to the market basket. Vortex also had one. I have installed a few. One nice thing is the intercooler has replaceable insides so if it has a problem it is cheeper to fix. I would do a procharger or vortex if it were me. I woulf not in any suggest a turbo in a 16, althoe we had a board member who had one. The turbo would really cost you$$$ to make it work well and saftly in a 16 Donzi.

[Donziweasel]

So, a Procharger will fit under a stock 16C hatch?

[LKSD]

So, a Procharger will fit under a stock 16C hatch?

It should... If you have an aftermarket high rise intake it may not. Otherwise it should even if you need to make some mods, but it will be a little snug... Jamie

[Rodger]

Ryan 23,
In Ed's reply he is thouroughly correct when he explains the use of smaller turbos to minimize lag and then dump off the exceess at some setpoint. That is how it's done in cars. They are all running undersize turbos with waste-gates. My 'E' series turbos do not have internal gates but they do have a .625" orifice in the housing to limit the amount of boost. I have bushed that orifice down to .500" to raise the boost some. Others have completely plugged it for very high boost results.

Donziweasel,
My engine has been turboed for 19 years. I pulled the engine 3 years ago to go thru it. At that point I had almost 1500 hours on it and it still seemed to run as good as it did when I first built it in 1988. I wanted to do some porting on the heads and a few other details so I just ended up going thru it completely. The turboes have not needed any rebuilding. They seem to last forever, contrary to what some believe. I've had and still have turbocharged cars also; some with over 200,000 miles and the turboes are still original and work fine.
I never had the heat problems that Ed speaks of but my unit already had the water jackets over the turboes and I don't run as much boost as he did either. I did not do anything to the boat to increase ventilation into the engine compartment.

[Donziweasel]

Intake is an Edlebrock Performer EPS. I think it is about the same height as stock. I am running a 264 comp roller cam, vortec heads, and edel 600 cfm carb. When I made the mods, I remember that the intake was about the same size as stock. I would have to say I have about 4 inches of clearance under the hatch. How would the 5 psi boost Procharger work on this set up? How difficult is the installation? Procharger is saying that hp should be in the range of 390-440 at the crank. Take away altitude and that should put me around 360 hp at the crank. How fast would a 16C go with this amount of ponies?

Cost is not as much of a consideration as ease of installation, reliability and engine wear.

Rodger- Sounds like you have a great system. Hard to believe you have not had to do anything in 1500 hrs. I guess that is the quality of the turbos. Banks has been around a long time and are known for quality.

[LKSD]

JW The cost to do turbos was a lot, but, nothing compared to the money spent adding the pad,step,E-drive steering, etc. etc. I went with the turbos because noone was doing it. Eveyone goes supercharger.
Would I do it again?? With the companies building good carbs for turbos,yes.
But exhaust manifolds are very hard to come by.
So I will stay with my Procharger.
I also think the turbos were an easier install with the suck through system..
Why don't the make suck through, rather, than blow through on superchargers?? .......Ed


Ed, Neat pics.. One question though I thought boats were only supposed to be out in unfrozen water??? :) LOL

I too think turbos are a cool idea, Its just that they are a lot of coin to do.. Who knows if there is enough interest in it and a good enough market we may see turbos make more of a common presence in the marine performance industry.. One nice thing about them despite the cost is it is free hp, meaning unlike belt driven forced induction units a turbo is powered by the exiting exhaust gasses.. The belt drive stuff takes some power to make the power..

As far as why prochargers or similar units dont do pull thru carb applications.. Good question. One of the reasons is the plumbing space & low production cost of the kits for them to make with a carb hat or box.. They can take a few different units & make it work on numerous applications.. If one was ingenuis enough they could fassion a pull thru application for one and probably make it work, but why not just use whats already available.. Although in my opinion pull thru carbs are usually easier to set up than force thru carbs, especially the ones in the carb boxes..

Jamie / Lakeside

[Donziweasel]

Just thought this would be the easiest way. Any suggestions on an easier way to get 420? Plus, I think it would be kinda cool when someone asks what is under the hatch to say a "supercharged 350":cool!:

I am open to any suggestions on power increases though.

[gcarter]

Just thought this would be the easiest way. Any suggestions on an easier way to get 420? Plus, I think it would be kinda cool when someone asks what is under the hatch to say a "supercharged 350":cool!:
I am open to any suggestions on power increases though.
Don Cig recently built a 7 liter SBC.....substantially more than 420!!!!!
Do a search. It was in late May, early June. Does in excess of 80.
Oh yeah...it's in an 18 w/a Blackhawk drive.

[LKSD]

Whay do you have to supercharge a SBC to get 420 HP??

You dont, but it is a fairly easy & at times cost effective way to do it... In my opinion.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[LKSD]

How would the 5 psi boost Procharger work on this set up? How difficult is the installation? Procharger is saying that hp should be in the range of 390-440 at the crank. Take away altitude and that should put me around 360 hp at the crank. How fast would a 16C go with this amount of ponies?

The actual Hp at the crank depends on the cam, intake, carb, intercooler & boost used.. If you use an M1sc @ apx 5 psi on a 350 carb application I would expect mid to high 70's or slightly better for your speed..

I believe a stock carbbed 350mag from merc with a 4 barrel was about 260 hp so I would expect roughly a 100-130hp gain on that application at about 5 psi which would put it somewhere between 360 & 390hp.. Which would be a noticable shot in the arm..

It is possible to get more power from an engine that has other upgrades or mods done to it... :)

If you want more options or a kit feel free to call me during the week.. Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628

[Donziweasel]

I like long lived.
MP- It seems you are against supercharging to get the 400hp I have set as my goal. What other suggestions do you have to get there? Just trying to tame my need for speed.:wink:
I just figured that at my altitude the best way to go about it is simply to get more air into the engine, and supercharging or turbo charging seems to be a good way to go, but I am open to anything.
This is becoming obsessive. I should just listen to my wife and leave it alone, but it just goes against my nature:bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

[gcarter]

Take a look at this thread....
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42328

Oh, BTW, Don lives in Colorado, and I watched the boat run at Lake Powel.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20591&d=1147227952

[Donziweasel]

I read his threads earlier and was very impressed. How fast does 80 in an 18 look? I knew it was at Powell and heard it screamed.
GCarter- How much do you think this engine cost? It must have been a fortune. What is your take on supercharging? Just trying to get 60+ (with an emphasis on +).

[gcarter]

I know Don probably didn't spare much expense. But I would guess less than 10K.
W/the Blackhawk, it kicked up an appreciable rooster tail. It looked pretty fast.
I've always been against supercharging, and for longevity. It would seem so easy (but not inexpensive) to bolt on a blower and get instant gratification. Don't give me a hard time guys, I know nothing is as easy as it would seem, but I admire folks that can get good HP w/o going the blower route.
Catch22 is a pretty good friend and his Procharged 22 runs extremely well. With his boat it seems so effortless. He goes an honest 90+, and very consistantly.
Rootsy and Sam both have (and had) 16's that would go an honest 80 w/N.A. engines. That seems like quite an accomplishment to me.
(Caveat) the one exception to my beliefs would be to compensate for altitude. But even then, only to boost to sealevel pressure and to compensate for blower losses (nothings free).

[LKSD]

Supercharging isn't the cheapest way to get the power, but it's usually a cost effective way to add some.. I know there may be some of you that think superchargers or blowers cant be long lived, but you would be wrong.. Its all in the set up & driver.. There are cheaper ways to get hp Like nitrous, but you dont see me pushing it.. Why because it isn't good for long term useage.. There are better Nos systems now but they still are not very practical..

I have a customer in a 23' boat who goes thru NON supercharged engines at a rate of about 1 per year.. Donzi's arent the only boats with big power as we all very well know.. The last engine we did he got 2 out of.. Which was a new record for him.. I hope some of you wont now start saying a 500 or a 525 is bad as well just because that guy has ruined a few! He maintains them but runs the hell out of them... He has also blown drives.. Hole shots, racing, cavitation, jumping the boat repeatedly.. It all can take its toll.. The units he uses are not remans either! they are new.. This winter he's getting a new one again..

For the record it is not always the installer. He's had the boat for about 10 years and he's only been with me about 3 years to date. He has spent plenty on it elsewhere before coming to me.. At least he has gotten more than a year with us at a time.. Once he realized there was a hi-perf guy (me) in his area he has been more than happy..

There are never any guarantees on what could happen when you get into Hi perf and custom work. Any of you that have dealt with me know that I dont look go the cheapest route. I prefer the safest and most durable for the application. That pertains to anything I do.. Whether it's a supercharged application, NON supercharged application, Drive, gelcoat job, paint job, etc....... If it also happens to be a cheaper way it is purely coincidence..

Good luck on which ever way you may go.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[wytmike]

I've also had the Banks turbo on our z25 for over 15 years. Great system that really doesn't take up much room. I will tell you you will be disappointed with a turbo system at altitude. We run ours at Tahoe (5200') and it is a dog out of the hole. Once on plane it is great. Had a friend with a 525sc Hornet III that would be 1/2 mile ahead of me before I could get on plane. If you only want top speed turbos are great,. If you want al around performance go normally aspirated or supercharged.
Mike

[zimm17]

JW, you've done a quite a bit of work on supercharged engines and also sell the kits- let me ask you this (sorry for the thread hi-jack):

If you have a recently rebuilt magnum engine (454 mag in my case), but the 350 in 16' we're talking about- Would you rather put the $7-10k into:

1) naturally aspirated: aluminum high dollar heads, full roller valve train, intake, carb

2) procharger setup with a carb hat

3) procharger setup plus getting an ebay stock merc EFI setup and mixing the two together

4) Go with full EFI Whipple charger setup

I like the whipple setup, but I have heard nothing about their EFI computer and what it takes to tune it. They gave me a quote of $10,000 for their blower, EFI setup, injectors, and computer. It's the most expensive route.

The procharger is proven by catch22- but it's alot of "stuff" hanging off the engine.

The pro's I see on the blower is if the engine goes, you built a stronger one and still keep the blower for even more power!

But you never really hear about the bad side of blowers- how many have major tuning problems? How easily does the engine start? Any side effects other than running 92 octane all the time?

I'd love to put a blower in my boat, but I hear lots of horror stories from people believing advertising of "bolt on" power and being really dissapointed. My brother bought a $4000 turbo kit for his motorcycle and it acted up so bad he couldn't even drive it to work. It did scream at full throttle though, but loaded up and wouldn't idle- had to rev it 3500rpm just to get moving from a traffic light, if it didn't bog and die. I don't want any hiccups like that in a boat I take out every weekend.

[LKSD]

Zimm,
All of the 4 ways you asked are pretty good ways of going...

The first one though will have it's parts selected very wisley & be built very well to get you the same power as a blown set up. What it comes down to is what are you can spend, how what ever you are doing will be set up or built, what your preferences are and lastly what your budget allows...

As i mentioned earlier, I never said supercharging was always the cheapest way to do something.. I said it was cost effective. To me that means you get a good return for your money spent. (good parts & good power, not just a little power for a lot of money).. Prochargers & whipples are both expensive units.. There are some others out there as well as you all know.. In general If a forced induction unit is added the right way it is usually money well spent.

I cant spend too much more time here right now, I gotta meet some people shortly. I am a fairly slow typer & sometimes it is easier to talk by phone. Especially when I do about a hundred or more emails and posts a day.. If you are interested in pursuing any of this feel free to call me.. :)
Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628

[BigGrizzly]

As for durability. I have a Procharger and over 400 hours on it. True it was well setup on a Dyno with some of the best people on hand to help. I would do name dropping but that doesn't matter. The fact is it is a carb in a box and runs fawlesly. Now I don't drive the crap out of it either. It will run 86 with a full tnk of fuel and 4 people faiirly consistantly providing there arn't any PWC ot tubers in front to watch for. My son has 454 EFI with a wipple but it was hel to get the right ECU from wipple. He ended up driving to Nwe Orleans to have Mark Bose do it righr. It still runs rich at idle but it has lived 4 years. His stang id a 4.6 with a Vortex and runs flawlesly for 25,000 miles. Now it is true that I am not a fan of supercharging, but they are good and getting better. The driver usually causes the most issues. We have a guy who puts 2 engines in his boat a year(twins) and isw brutal on the boat motors. one year he brok 11 bravo drives with an engine like mine. than the motor went.
If it were me I would go the normally asperated route and hop up the engine on a small block. or buy one and dump it in the boat. There is more then horsepower to a 75+mph 16. Engine is only the begining. I know because like Rotsey, I've been there. You have your choices now make the desision

[blackhawk]

All I know is IF I ever do any upgrades to my 502 EFI it will be a Vortech supercharger. Nothing wrong with NA but I don't have the knowledge to do it myself. I'm very mechanically inclined but I just don't have the experience to feel comfortable cracking into my engine and replacing the camshaft and valvetrain. Which means I would have to find someone I trust and pay them well!

I have done a lot of research and Vortech really seems to stand out as the one doing it "right". Recalibrated ECM and they don't try to squeeze every last hp out of the stock motor. 570hp is good enough for me! :D

And by the time I bought the components AND paid the labor to make 570 hp NA I'd be well over what I can get a complete Vortech kit for.

Jamie have you looked into becoming a Vortech dealer?

[blackhawk]

Some of us are fighting to keep our NA 502's below 570 HP... :yes:

I don't doubt that a bit Scott, but since I have to pay for labor I highly doubt I can do it for $5k! ;)

[Donziweasel]

Blackhawk- I am in the same boat as you. While I appreciate the fact that some of you are saying build a 400+ hp motor, I simply do not have the skills like Don or James. I pulled the motor, had someone help with the cam, did the heads, intake and carb. These were fairly easy and inexpensive(not cheap) mods that I could do by myself and were within my limitations. Even though I got it done, the boat still is not running right, but I will figure it out as I am sure it is something simple in the carb.

With that said, to build a motor from the block up is out of my skill level, but I do like working on my engine. That is why supercharging. It may not be as satisfying as building an complete normal aspirated engine and running 80 in an 18C, but I think it is in my skill level, budget, and will produce the horsepower I am looking for. Don's engine probably costs over $10,000.00 plus the labor to build, while a supercharger would cost half that with close results. I am not sure how far James is in on the Red Mistress, but I am sure it is pricey. I don't think it is right for some of you to look down on me for wanting performance but not being able to afford a $10,000.00-$15,000.00 normal aspirated engine. Like most Donzi owners, I like to go fast but have a budget and limited resources. Plus, living in Jackson Hole, I do not have the option of going to a local high performance shop to get advice or have someone come over and check my work. Don't get me wrong, I definetly respect what Don has accomplished and where James is going (and has been) and if anything, I am a little jealous that I do not have the skills they do.

I have been researching superchargers and it seems if done right with moderate boost and controlling the heat, that longevity and relaibility are not really compromised. Some on you may disagree, but this is from other boards of people running these systems. If driven responsibly, engines that are supercharged right are running great with well over a 1000 hours on them.

Lastly, thanks JW for your insight on this as you are a professional engine builder and have installed superchargers before. It seems that your opinion is that supercharging might not be for everyone, but if that is the way to go, then it can be a good sorce of hp within many of our skills and budget. Will give you a call later.

[LKSD]

Don's engine probably costs over $10,000.00 plus the labor to build, while a supercharger would cost half that with close results.

It would only be about that if you install & set it up yourself.. Like I said its not always the cheapest.. It's just at times it is cost effective depending on the application and the desired results. Also some times to make HUGE power forced induction is a necessity like on dragsters for example..



Lastly, thanks JW for your insight on this as you are a professional engine builder and have installed superchargers before. It seems that your opinion is that supercharging might not be for everyone, but if that is the way to go, then it can be a good sorce of hp within many of our skills and budget. Will give you a call later.

No Problem.. Your welcome, talk to ya later.. :) :shades: Jamie

[Donziweasel]

James, was this on the Red Mistress or you last 16? How many ponies did you end up with? Once again, thanks for all the advice on getting me to where I am now. I know I was new to the boards and a new Donzi owner and you really helped me out with the selection of cams, carbs, etc... I know you had a lot on your hands with the red mistress, Donzi.org and you business, but you still took time to help me out.

Like I said , I am open to any suggestions on where to go with the engine. Spoke with JW this morning and a supercharger is out due to lack of room between the engine and the bulkheads. I am done boating for the season as I am soon to be hunting elk, antelope and mule deer. On the other hand, I now have all winter to work on the boat and try to get it in the mid 60's. I am also beginning to see the limitations of the 16 in regards to space and any bolt on power upgrades, plus how fast is safe in this boat.

I guess I am now at a decision I have to make. Try and get my 16 up to where I want it without building a new motor or sell and buy an 18. I am considering the Holley fuel injection after talking with JW this morning as this will definetly help the power issue and probable put me in the high 50's, or even better, low 60's. I could live with that. On the other hand, an 18 has more room to play with, will take a MPI 6.2L that I could mod some and probably run in the mid to high 60's and is probably a little safer in the high 60's and lower 70's. Tough choice. What do you guys think now that supercharging is out?

[DonCig]

James, was this on the Red Mistress or you last 16? How many ponies did you end up with? Once again, thanks for all the advice on getting me to where I am now. I know I was new to the boards and a new Donzi owner and you really helped me out with the selection of cams, carbs, etc... I know you had a lot on your hands with the red mistress, Donzi.org and you business, but you still took time to help me out.
Like I said , I am open to any suggestions on where to go with the engine. Spoke with JW this morning and a supercharger is out due to lack of room between the engine and the bulkheads. I am done boating for the season as I am soon to be hunting elk, antelope and mule deer. On the other hand, I now have all winter to work on the boat and try to get it in the mid 60's. I am also beginning to see the limitations of the 16 in regards to space and any bolt on power upgrades, plus how fast is safe in this boat.
I guess I am now at a decision I have to make. Try and get my 16 up to where I want it without building a new motor or sell and buy an 18. I am considering the Holley fuel injection after talking with JW this morning as this will definetly help the power issue and probable put me in the high 50's, or even better, low 60's. I could live with that. On the other hand, an 18 has more room to play with, will take a MPI 6.2L that I could mod some and probably run in the mid to high 60's and is probably a little safer in the high 60's and lower 70's. Tough choice. What do you guys think now that supercharging is out?
I believe that it is always cheaper, easier and faster to buy somebodys elses race car versus building your own. But in building your own you do gain some additonal value.

My free but hollow thoughts;
I would personally buy a already built hot rod 16 or 18 Classic and sell your boat as the easiest, cheapest and fastest route to Donzi bliss.
But if you need a winter project, then I would pump up the engine on your 16 this winter with JR's advice and get ready to run the boat all of next summer without turning a wrench.


Don

[Donziweasel]

Don- Good advice. I really enjoyed reading your threads about your engine build and learned alot.

I think I would rather build something than buy something already built. The reasons are that 1. I am trying to learn more about engine building. I have a great shop, all the tools needed and have enjoyed the work I did on my 16 this summer (by the way, thanks for your advice also. We spoke on the phone when I first started thinking about working on the engine and you pointed me in the right direction). 2. I would worry about quality control on an already built hot rod. 3. Have you ever spent a winter in Wyoming? It will drive you crazy if you do not have something to do and I have 6 months to work on it and get it right.

Don, by the way, how is your boat running? Sounds like it is a rocket and hopefully one day I will get a chance to see it in action.

[BigGrizzly]

Dweas, go for it I would just be conservitive with HP dreams. I have been building engins for 45 years, don't over do it or it will be trouble. there are a lot of good products out there but there is a lot of trash too.

[Donziweasel]

BG- Not looking to go overboard, just would like my 16 to run in the 60's. Any suggestions?

[Donziweasel]

I am finding myself looking more and more at 18C's on the internet boat selling sites. Just out of curiosity, if I did decided to sell the 16 and move up to an 18, how much is my 16 worth?
1997 w/5.7L 350
Comp 264 cam
Edelbrock intake
Edelbrock 600 CFM marine carb
Vortec heads
I also added Bennett trim tabs
210 hours on engine
Boat is clean
1997 single axle ez-loader trailer

[BigGrizzly]

Dweas, mid 60's isn't difficult at sea level but your at a high altitude. you eill need abour 350 HP at YOUR altitude. I have raced mototcycles in Park city Ut and Steam boat springs CO. and it is a slightly different ball game. As you know from your snowmobile buddies that jetting is everything. I have been lucky becuse in my job i got to work on high altitude auto when I was in the R&D area so I was ready for the altitude. In your area the cam is the key. Look for t6he higest torque at 3500 pms. Not trying give anyone business bur IsKy has a lot of experience with high altitude engines. I have worked with these people face to face while I worked in Ca. In fact I worked accross the street from them. If they can't help they will send you some place else. Now I do have my favorite cam people, just because they are personal friends and we experiment together, but this isn't what this is about. You need something that works the first time. This is why I point you in that direction. If others don't like my opinion thats OK, opinions vary. I have a 16 a 18 aned a 22 and I like all of them. Even I only get in our 16 every 5 years or so it is still a gas. I would not to have to make a choice between them. There is nothing to it but to do it. Good luck, you have 6 months to finish. clean your guns and get that elk then clean your tools and gwet the engine done and play!

[Donziweasel]

Thanks Big Grizzly. I am really getting excited about getting something bigger in the spring. I will definetly talk to Isky about the high altitude. I think I will try and get to the gathering in Kentucky in May and get a lot of feedback before I decide which way to go. I like the 18 and the Minx and see alot of potential in both. My wife and I are excited to meet some of you in May and hope that I will get pointed in the right direction.