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cigarette8888
08-25-2006, 11:39 AM
I recently purchased a 1973 20' Cig :yes:
Now I need to purchase and install an engine:bonk:

What is the difference between a stock car engine that I could purchase on ebay as a crate engine and a marine engine? Which one do I need or does it matter at all? Oh, btw - cig has a Berkley Jet Drive...

Any help would be appreciated??

mrfixxall
08-25-2006, 11:59 AM
I recently purchased a 1973 20' Cig :yes:
Now I need to purchase and install an engine:bonk:
What is the difference between a stock car engine that I could purchase on ebay as a crate engine and a marine engine? Which one do I need or does it matter at all? Oh, btw - cig has a Berkley Jet Drive...
Any help would be appreciated??

First you need to know which impeller the jet drive has,AA,A,AB,B ect ect...

Need to know that to determine the power you need,sbc or bbc?

gcarter
08-25-2006, 02:55 PM
MichiganMotorz on eBay sells some nice small block Chevy marinized by Indmar (I think). These are 330 HP and ready to go....basically ski boat engines. Price is pretty decent.

gcarter
08-25-2006, 04:47 PM
Here's a current list of what they're offering;
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZmichiganmotors
Oh yeah, located in Detroit.

cigarette8888
08-25-2006, 06:49 PM
First you need to know which impeller the jet drive has,AA,A,AB,B ect ect...
Need to know that to determine the power you need,sbc or bbc?

Ok, I am going to check the impeller tonight and see what I have... I just read up on how the Berkley Jet works on the company web site and I see where you are coming from... This is my first power boat so I appreciate the help..

cigarette8888
08-25-2006, 07:00 PM
Hummmm well i may have found some of the answer to my question here - do you guys agree with this? What types of engines do you have in your boats... automotive or marine???

Auto vs. Marine Engines, Marine Diesel Engines, Used Marine Engines, Man Marine Engines

http://www.perfprotech.com/home/auto-marine.htm

Performance Product Technologies Question & Answer Forum
Topic: Marine Engines vs. Automotive

Question: Is There Really Any Difference Between a Marine Engine vs. Automotive?

Response: Contrary to what many people claim, there truly are several differences between the automotive engine and marine. These differences prevent automotive products from performing as well as the intended marine engine. Many people attempt to save money by utilizing an automotive engine rather than marine, however in our experience these situations rarely save money in the end. Be very careful with companies who claim to offer engines not being Marine Grade, but still being the same, or compliant, or some other fancy terminology. In the end the fact still remains that you get what you pay for.

The freeze plugs are of a corrosion inhibiting material.
The head gaskets also utilize corrosion resistant construction.
The valve guides utilize corrosion resistant construction.
The water pumps are intended for a marine operating environment (seals and bearings).
The camshaft is designed to marine duty requirements as needed to move a boat versus a car.
The overall duty cycle of a marine engine is very different than that of an automotive application. When was the last time your thought of running your car at full throttle for a sustained period of time?

cigarette8888
08-25-2006, 07:02 PM
Is this the one from Florida??

Yes, this boat came from Florida..

onesubdrvr
08-25-2006, 07:19 PM
Hummmm well i may have found some of the answer to my question here - do you guys agree with this? What types of engines do you have in your boats... automotive or marine???
* The camshaft is designed to marine duty requirements as needed to move a boat versus a car.
* The overall duty cycle of a marine engine is very different than that of an automotive application. When was the last time your thought of running your car at full throttle for a sustained period of time?


Yes, I agree with the list you posted, most people here have marine engines,......some have purchased automotive crate engines, and have made the necessary conversions to marinize them. Some have purchased bare blocks and built up marine specific engines from there.

Cam is a biggie as far as where you peak power at, and a NUMBER of other factors, including duration, overlap, etc Alot of automotive high HP cams are no good, because they would cause reversion (sucking water back into the engine) with out exhaust and other modifications.

Marine engines are under constant load, equivalent to speed, what ever power it takes to get you to a speed, it takes you to stay at that speed (all assuming your on plane), unlike a car, that may take X hp to get up to speed, but only y to stay at that speed. You'll find that ring gaps are slightly larger on marine engines to compensate for the longer / higher heat, and piston swelling. The list goes on and on, and MANY more people could shed more light on it than me.

Would love to see some pictures of your new Cig!!

Welcome to the board,
Wayne

Barry Eller
08-25-2006, 09:40 PM
Marine engines are under much more load. It's like this...

A boat is in first gear, going up hill all the time. Does not change gears or coast. It is always working hard. You need to change oil by hours of running instead of miles since they don't have odometers.

Jet drives are much less efficient than propeller driven boats. Torque is more important than horsepower in a boat. You will need a Big Block to get good performance in a 20' Cig with a jet drive.

cigarette8888
08-26-2006, 01:57 PM
First you need to know which impeller the jet drive has,AA,A,AB,B ect ect...
Need to know that to determine the power you need,sbc or bbc?

So, ok, I have been trying to find out which impeller that I have on the Jet drive and the model number - any advice on where this informaiton typically be located on the Berkley unit?

mrfixxall
08-26-2006, 03:03 PM
So, ok, I have been trying to find out which impeller that I have on the Jet drive and the model number - any advice on where this informaiton typically be located on the Berkley unit?


Look for the clean out box(has two wing nuts on top to clean crap out of the pump)their should be a tag in that area with the info you need..
the boat probably came with a 12jc or a 12 jg pump and the most common impeller is a a impeller...Here,s their webb site,this may help....If you plan on installing that engine your going to need a ss impeller anyways,if the boat has a alunimum inpeller their only rated for 400 hp...

http://www.berkeleyjet.com/products/impeller-info.htm

cigarette8888
08-27-2006, 10:08 PM
I have attached some pictures of my cigarette. I did some research and I do believe that one of the prior owners of this cigarette was (and perhaps still is) a member of Donzi registry. You can check out the articles that I found here if interested: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39789

However, I should say, this is not who I purchased the cigarette from. This fellow sold the boat on ebay and it sold during this auction 120006071538. I purchased the boat from the winner of this auction when he sold the boat on ebay about one month later 270018006072.

I flew to Florida and purchased the cigarette, did some work on the trailer so that it would go 2400 miles, and then drove it back to California. The boat is perfect for all the lakes and rivers we have on the West Coast. The jet drive should do well. Structurally, the boat really only needs an engine to get it going and I can tell that the prior owners did some good work. I really like the classic style and look of the boat and intend to enjoy this for many, many years...

Thats all I have for the history of the boat.... But I will keep pictures coming as I do some work...

I currently do not have any engine for this boat. When the first prior owner sold the boat on ebay to the fellow that I purchased the boat from it included the stock 454 merCruiser engine from another boat. I decided not to purchase that engine. The engine was already at a shop being reworked.

Through some other searches on Donzi registry I have been able to locate the original specification for the cigarette. The specification said is was capable of 63 MPH with the stock 280HP MerCruiser and that custom installations were available with speeds to 74 MPH. I don't believe any of these setups had jet drives on them though.

The jet is a Berkeley Jetovator setup. However, it would appear that there is some sort of OEM relationship between Berkely and American Turbine. The model number on the jet drive is ATJ-S with option B. Also, it says BERK-REPL and the words American Turbine are on the side of the intake.

I believe that this is an AT-309 Jet http://www.americanturbine.com/ I have included a picture of the impeller selection chart for the AT-309 jet.

In any event, now i need to find a good engine for this boat and I would like to find one that is capable of pushing the boat to 74mph - the original specification - as a target speed (if it ends up with only 65mph then so be it - what will be will be!)

So, if you have any ideas of engines that I could purchase that would be a good match for the jet and my speed objectives I would really appreciate the help. If you have any links to engines that are being sold that would meet my requirements that would really be helpful also so that I can see exactly what you are talking about.

Hey, thanks alot for all the help again - this board has some really cool people on it!!!!!!!!!!

cigarette8888
08-27-2006, 10:14 PM
more pictures here.... more pictures

big bore
08-27-2006, 11:06 PM
hi
i just put a 427 small block on the board tha should pretty close to what you may need at a very resenble price hp and tq should be well over 500

yeller
08-27-2006, 11:45 PM
....If you plan on installing that engine your going to need a ss impeller anyways,if the boat has a alunimum inpeller their only rated for 400 hp...
Unless your closing in on 600hp, SS isn't necessary. The new aluminum impellers are much stronger than the ones of old.

mrfixxall
08-28-2006, 10:03 AM
Unless your closing in on 600hp, SS isn't necessary. The new aluminum impellers are much stronger than the ones of old.

Have you ever seen one come apart?It takes the ware ring and the pump bowl with it,it think its worth the investment.:)

yeller
08-28-2006, 11:57 AM
I do agree, if Cigarette8888's impeller is more than a few years old, it probably can't handle much more than 400hp. However, if you're buying new, unless your pushing big horsepower, the SS impeller is too heavy and robs you of too much HP. There are new aluminum impellers that can handle way more than 400hp.

Cig35Mistress
08-28-2006, 02:44 PM
Cigarette8888's impeller has less than 25 hours on it. It is brand new. I know this because I bought it. I also know this because I rebuilt the jetdrive.

I'm glad my boat made it into safe hands, that will appreciate it as much as I did. I've already spoken with Edwin (Cigarette8888) and I'm helping him to put the boat back together as I had it.

Thanks,

Harry

cigarette8888
08-28-2006, 07:22 PM
Well I really lucked out – Official thanks to Harry (Cig35Mistress) for helping me out! I will keep the pictures coming as progress is made on the engine….

Did I mention that this is a really great online board!!!!!! How could it get any better than this!!!!:)

Cig35Mistress
08-28-2006, 08:30 PM
Edwin:

It was a pleasure speaking with you today - best of luck with the boat. I'll help in anyway I can, and I am searching for an engine for you now. Let me get through this storm and we'll speak after.

Take care,

Harry