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gcarter
07-20-2006, 06:34 AM
This is an interesting story about the CIA building a ship to raise a sunk Russian sub. My connection to this story is that when, a few years later, I was working for Schuller and Allan Naval Archetects, Eric Allan told me about a similar visit by the CIA to design the ship. He had to tell them no, because he would have had to litterally shut down business for three or four years to his regular customers.
Read on;


July 20, 2006, 6:01AM
Ship has berth in U.S. history
Designed in Houston, boat lifted wreckage of Soviet sub in '70s


By DAVID S. ROSEN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

CURTIS Crooke's connection with the Glomar Explorer began back in 1969, when two men from the Central Intelligence Agency showed up at his office uninvited.

"They walked in my door and closed it, and my office door was never shut," said Crooke, now 78 and retired in Carmel, Calif. "They wanted to know if my company could build something to lift something so many tons and in about 15 to 20,000 feet of water."

Crooke, then the vice president of engineering for Houston-based Global Marine, wasn't told what the CIA wanted to do with this special ship.

But he had a hunch.

As soon as the two men in suits left his office after making their unusual request, Crooke told his assistant to look up the tonnage of Russian submarines, guessing there was nothing else that heavy the CIA would be so interested in retrieving from the bottom of the ocean.

"I don't know what else it could have been," Crooke said, adding that his small company, which designed and built mining and drilling ships, had earlier been involved in a project to retrieve a sunken U.S. submarine off the Azores. "There was no reason for someone coming around and shutting my door when we'd already been discussing something like that. It had to be something that wasn't ours."

Crooke's guess proved correct. His company was being recruited to build the Glomar Explorer, a revolutionary ship that successfully lifted wreckage from a sunken Russian submarine from the ocean floor in 1974.

It later was turned into a drillship for the oil industry and was used to drill wells that set records for water depth at the time.

The ship, now known as the GSF Explorer (for GlobalSantaFe, the company that merged with Global Marine), will be honored today by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers as a historic mechanical engineering landmark, a title bestowed to fewer than 250 machines around the world.

The honor is given to design marvels that the society sees as high-profile advances in technology, or inventions that affect the quality of life, according to its Web site.

The GSF Explorer is still a working vessel, currently drilling in the Gulf of Mexico for BP.


It's classified information
To this day, some of the details of the Glomar Explorer's mission remain classified, and Crooke — the civilian head of the construction — maintains there are things he still can't talk about.

But the ship itself was so large and strange looking that intelligence officials didn't try to keep its existence a secret. They covered up the vessel's actual mission by saying it was built by eccentric billionaire Howard Hughes for mining minerals in the ocean.

The CIA contacted Global Marine not long after the Houston company had completed work on the Glomar Challenger, which was capable of drilling for oil at ocean depths of several thousand feet. At that time, few ships could drill in waters more than 1,000 feet.

Crooke eventually learned the federal government had its eye on the Russian submarine K-129, which sunk in 1968 within 1,000 miles of Hawaii.

The Russians had repeatedly attempted to find it, but according to a 1975 story, the Russians were convinced their ship had sunk nearly 500 miles away from where it actually went down.


Location of sub
Meanwhile, American computers correctly estimated the location of the K-129, and an underwater robot took pictures confirming its location in water 16,500 feet deep. When it became apparent the Soviets had scaled down their search, the Nixon administration decided to try to retrieve the ship.

Once the contract was signed, Crooke knew the exact purpose of the Glomar Explorer. But the hundreds of laborers putting the ship together were never told about recovering a missing submarine. Crooke estimates that fewer than 1,000 people nationwide knew about the ship's mission.

Hughes was brought in as a figurehead for the operation, but had little to do with the construction, Crooke said.


'Sugar daddy'
"Many other public companies like Lockheed Martin can say they have so many millions of dollars in classified contracts, but poor old Global Marine, a small company, how do we report it?" Crooke said. "We weren't big enough to have that kind of money. We had to have some kind of sugar daddy that had a history with those contracts and was a believable kind of character to be participating in that kind of affair."

For the most part, the media bought the cover story, enchanted by Hughes' character and scientific developments.

"The CIA stroked news executives and played them against each other, keeping records, including transcripts of telephone conversations, along the way," wrote syndicated media columnist Charles Seib in a story about the cover-up in 1977.

At the time the Glomar Explorer was being built, John Lamm, who was working on a construction site in Delaware County, Pa., was taken aback by the look of the ship he first saw in 1972 when it was nearing completion.


'This strange-looking ship'
"Up the Delaware River comes this strange-looking ship, and everybody on the job stops," said Lamm, who now lives in Philadelphia. "One of my co-workers says to me, 'That's the Howard Hughes boat,' and that piqued my interest."

Lamm, who has retired and written an unpublished book on the Glomar Explorer, is still captivated by the ship. He recently worked to get a Pennsylvania historical marker honoring the vessel, which will soon be installed outside the home of the Independent Seaport Museum in Philadelphia.

Reports vary in regard to the success of the mission to retrieve the submarine, code named Project Jennifer. Multiple reports cite intelligence analysts saying the submarine had broken into pieces, either when it sunk or when it was recovered.

CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano declined to comment for this story.

The Glomar Explorer's mission still inspires speculation.

The novel Red Star Rogue, written by Kenneth Sewell and published in 2005, claims the Explorer recovered almost all of the K-129.

A newspaper story in 1975 reported that sources said the whole submarine was recovered.

Crooke, who was not onboard the Explorer when it lifted the K-129, dismissed speculation that the whole submarine was recovered. He added that people onboard the ship were operating under the assumption the K-129 was laying broken on the seafloor.

"You never could lift the whole submarine because it was in pieces," Crooke said.

Crooke said after the Glomar Explorer's cover was blown in the media, it didn't make a second trip to the site of the sunken sub.

But Crooke declined to say whether parts of the submarine broke off as it was being lifted to the surface.

"Now we're getting into things I'd rather not talk about," he said.


Part of Navy's reserve fleet
After Project Jennifer, the Explorer was transferred from the CIA to the Navy in 1976, according to a letter from naval historian Charles Creekman. The ship was not used for some time and became part of the Navy's reserve fleet, according to Creekman's letter written in 1998 to a former Pennsylvania congressman, Robert Borski, who helped Lamm investigate the Explorer's history.

In 1996, the ship was transferred on a 30-year lease back to Global Marine, which later merged to form GlobalSantaFe. Crooke, who retired in 1985, said the vessel underwent modifications so it could drill wells in deep water.

The Explorer currently has a crew of about 175, and is working off the Louisiana coast, said Jeff Awalt, who works in investor relations for GlobalSantaFe.

Crooke said the ship played a vital role in a number of aspects of modern history — ranging from the technology race in the Cold War to how oil is drilled today.

"Thinking about it from the Cold War standpoint, we were so far ahead in the West, I don't think they ever knew how much data we got," Crooke said. "Then from the oil industry standpoint, this played a significant long range contribution convincing people in management that you really could start drilling in deep water and handle big items and do precision work on the ocean floor."

david.rosen@chron.com

DonziJon
07-20-2006, 11:05 AM
This story is all true. There is a book called "Blind Mans Bluff" by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew that relates many of the details of the Glomar Explorer, and other "adventures" that were conducted by U.S. and Soviet Nuclear Submarines during the Cold War. There was also a documentary made for TV a few years ago that was based on the book. FACINATING READING.

The Information is declassified...HOWEVER: Crooke isn't talking because HE was "De-Briefed" years ago and signed papers that he would keep HIS mouth shut...No matter what...essentially...until "Death Do Us Part". All military personel involved in such "operations" were "debriefed" before being discharged.

By the way, when the Soviet sub was raised, some human remains were recovered and identified and then RE buried at sea with Full Military Honors aboard the Glomar Explorer. The proceedings were video taped and the tape was subsequently passed on to the Russian authorities...I think much later.

John

Lenny
07-20-2006, 12:58 PM
Neat story...

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm

fegettes
07-21-2006, 06:24 AM
Neat story...
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm
I agree. Great story.
Some more on the K-129.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DGlomar%2520Explorer%26fr%3DFP-tab-web-t400%26toggle%3D1%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr2%3Dtab-web&w=172&h=147&imgurl=mikekemble.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk%2Fimages%2F glomar.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmikekemble.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk% 2Fk129.html&size=8.3kB&name=glomar.jpg&p=Glomar+Explorer&type=jpeg&no=13&tt=85&ei=UTF-8

LKSD
07-21-2006, 07:49 AM
Quite interesting... Jamie :)

ChromeGorilla
07-21-2006, 07:17 PM
Thanks for sharing that story George. it had been awhile since I have read it.

John is correct. Blind Mans Bluff is an excellent book. And pretty darn accurate to boot........:wink: I highly recommend this book.

DonziJon
07-21-2006, 07:22 PM
I joined the Navy in 1959. I was stationed at the Submarine Base, New London, (CT) in the mid sixties and worked with the guys stationed on the "boats". I was an "Opticalman". We worked on periscopes and delt with the day to day problems when the boats came in from deployment.

After I got out (9 years), I went to college and after graduation went to work for a Defence Contractor in Newport. We had a couple of EX "Bubbleheads" working for us. "Bubblehead" is a term of enderement..not a sler.

Anywho, One guy was a recent discharge, and the other was a retiree. The retiree was part of the original crew of the Nautilus..SSN-571.. the first nuclear submarine in the world. Original crew for any Navy ship are referred to as "Plankowners".

During this time, when we all came together, late eighties, a book came out called "Hunt For Red October". I was the first to get the book. Within a couple of monthes, almost everyone in the office was reading the book. (Our contract at the time was in support of the Trident Program for the Navy.)

Our retirees name was Marty. "Hey Marty: I got this book here that says we got somthin called SOSUS. What can you tell me about SOSUS??" Marty has a "startled look" on his face and turns and walks away with no comment. The other guy who recently got out was approached with the same queation. He just smiled and walked away.

My wife's girlhood friend has been marriied (31 years) to an Ex Bubblehead (Nuke) who did patrols during the sixties. I asked him about SOSUS. He just smiled. A few months later he handed me the book.. "Blind Mans Bluff". I read the book and later brought the subject up over dinner during our annual dinner get gether. (I already knew what "Boat" he had been on and his boat had played a prominent role.) He just smiled and changed the subject.

"De-Briefing" seems to work really well. NONE of these guys will talk about what they did during their service. They are all PATRIOTS. :) John

ChromeGorilla
07-21-2006, 07:45 PM
Bubblehead, checking in.... I was an MT:nuke: . Also Onsubdriver was an A-Ganger.
:flag-navy

onesubdrvr
07-21-2006, 09:31 PM
Bubblehead, checking in.... I was an MT:nuke: . Also Onsubdriver was an A-Ganger.
:flag-navy
Aye Aye :wink:

Read the information about the USS Richard B Russell and the USS Parche - Mare Island California, that's all I'll say :wink:

I REALLY need to get that book, I still haven't read it :confused:

Later Y'all

ChromeGorilla
07-21-2006, 10:54 PM
Wayne.... HTF have you not read that book?!?!?!?! ANyway were you on the Parche? I have several close friends that were..... and they wouldn't tell me chit! Also the Narwal...same situation.... I have a funny Parche story that I actually can share....

My friend said SUBLANTFLT was visiting out on the west coast and strolled down to the pier and wanted to board the Parche to look around.... hell he was SUBLANTFLT a 3 star..... he could go on any damn submarine he wanted! Well, after my friend (standing topside sentry at the brow) turned him away and lots of bitching and yelling when all was said and done..... the admiral never got that tour.......:wink:

ChromeGorilla
07-21-2006, 11:00 PM
Here's a little bit on the Parche.... Notice towards the end the 10 year gap of "R and D" :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

"USS Parche (SSN-683), a Sturgeon-class submarine, was the second ship of the United States Navy to be named for the parche, a small, gorgeously colored butterfly fish, known for its uncanny ability to swim in and around coral heads and reefs. The fish can find its way through the most intricate passages by swimming upside down or on its side.

The contract to build her was awarded to Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, Mississippi on 25 June 1968 and her keel was laid down on 10 December 1970. She was launched on 13 January 1973 sponsored by Mrs. Philip A. Beshany, and commissioned on 17 August 1974, with Commander Richard N. Charles in command.

Parche served as a unit of Atlantic Submarine Force until 1976 before transferring to the Pacific Fleet. Once arriving at its new homeport at Mare Island, California, Parche received ocean engineering modifications.

From 1987 to 1991, Parche began the extended overhaul at Mare Island Naval Shipyard that refueled her and modified her for research and development. A 100 foot (30 m) long extension was added to her hull just forward of her sail. The added section was flat-topped, looking somewhat like the missile deck of a ballistic missile submarine. The added equipment included an extensive array of signals-collecting antennas and electronic gear, as well as a remotely controlled grapple that could be lowered through a hatch in the boat's keel to retrieve objects from the ocean floor. The overhaul also added many auxiliary navigational and maneuvering features, including both upward and forward facing short-range sonars, and a suite of armored spotlights and closed-circuit television cameras for under-ice operations.[1]

Upon completion of her modifications, she began a new mission as part of Submarine Development Squadron 5. Parche resumed Pacific Fleet operations in 1992 and was transferred to its new homeport at Naval Submarine Base Bangor, Washington, in November 1994.









ten years of research and development operations go here







On 19 October 2004, Parche was decommissioned at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. Her research and development duties will be assumed by Jimmy Carter, a Seawolf class submarine whose construction period was extended to include modifications that will allow her to carry out the same types of research and development.[1]

See USS Parche for other ships of the same name.



Here is a link.... check out the 2 pictures of the sub before and after "modifications". http://www.answers.com/topic/uss-parche

onesubdrvr
07-22-2006, 09:43 AM
I was on the Richard B Russell (ssn 687), from 90-93 (while the Parche was in overhaul)

All I'll say is during my time, the Russell received 1 PUC and 2 NUC (presidential unit citation and Navy Unit Citations respectively), we were very busy during that time, pretty interesting how they "picked" us too, and the whole background investigation thing :boggled:

Anyways, until later,..


DIVE DIVE DIVE

OneSubDrvr

DonziJon
07-22-2006, 11:09 AM
Speaking of books about bubblehead adventures: There's another book that might be of interest. I picked up my copy at the "Submarine Museum", bookstore just outside the Main Gate at SuBase New London....which happens to be in Groton, CT. While you're there, take a tour of the Nautilus tied up at the pier. It's Free.

The book is called "Dark Waters", by Lee Vyborny and Don Davis. It's about a boat simply named: NR-1. More good reading.

I think Chromey once mentioned he had the distinct pleasure of chipping some paint on that boat once. For those of you not familiar with Navy Tradition, there is a no more satisfying past time for a sailor than "chipping paint." ....Oh Wait: ..Maybe Liberty. :smash: John

ChromeGorilla
07-22-2006, 09:12 PM
It's about a boat simply named: NR-1. More good reading.
I think Chromey once mentioned he had the distinct pleasure of chipping some paint on that boat once. For those of you not familiar with Navy Tradition, there is a no more satisfying past time for a sailor than "chipping paint." ....Oh Wait: ..Maybe Liberty. :smash: John


Holy friggin steel bear trap memory batman....... I mentioned that very briefly a looooong time ago.... WOW!:eek!: Who says the mind starts to go when you get old....? ;) :D

Yeah, after I left nuclear power school and went to groton I had the pleasure of chipping and painting NR-1 while waiting for MT "A" school.

DonziJon
07-23-2006, 07:18 PM
Holy friggin steel bear trap memory batman....... I mentioned that very briefly a looooong time ago.... WOW!:eek!: Who says the mind starts to go when you get old....? ;) :D
Yeah, after I left nuclear power school and went to groton I had the pleasure of chipping and painting NR-1 while waiting for MT "A" school.

Yeh: My memory works best when the stuff I'm thinking about is from way back. I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast, but....The Old Days?? I'm much better. Especially NAVY days.

What year were you in Groton? Where were you "Chippin Paint" on the NR-1??.... at the Lower Base.... or at EB? I think the NR-1 was only at EB, but I can't be sure. (Possable Security Risk to answer)

I think I remember a young guy chippin paint on the NR-1 during my "Yard Bird" days. He kept wondering why the sail was painted orange. A red head with a new tattoo. Was that you Chromey??? :confused: John

DonziJon
07-23-2006, 07:45 PM
Chromey: Just and "Old" Sailor pullin yor leg. :boat: John

Schnook
07-23-2006, 10:30 PM
Another interesting chapter. Anyone heard of the Tautog?

ChromeGorilla
07-23-2006, 10:30 PM
I was in Groton in early 97. And I have never been to EB.... so that may help a little...:wink: Nope.... no red hair or tats....

ChromeGorilla
07-23-2006, 10:32 PM
Tautog was a boat from back in the day....(to me anyway). They did dome "neat stuff" towards the end of the boats life I believe... don't know much....

Schnook
07-23-2006, 10:52 PM
Welllllllll - story goes that Tautog was trailing a russian boat, russian does a 'crazy ivan', but instead of completing the circle and continuing on, he kicks it in the azz halfway through and sideswipes our boat. U.S. boats are single screw, ruskies are twin, this is what saved the Tautog. Her screw was protected by the hull. The russian was not so lucky. His screw on the impact side hit the Tautog's hull, this shattered his shaft seals. Water poured into the engine room. There's supposed to be taped audio of breaking up noises...

ChromeGorilla
07-23-2006, 11:21 PM
This one is for me buddy Wayne..... aka Onesubdriver...

One of our multitude of extremely important responsibilities was care, maintenance and cleaning of our municipal sewer system. You eat… You poop. Cooks handled the former… We took care of the residual byproduct.

To fully appreciate the importance of this feature of our assigned duty, you must first understand the complex world of subsurface poop moving. Everything that eventually found its way to one of our three sanitary tanks, made its way through a system of gravity drains. The scuttlebutt (water fountain for non-quals)… Cook's and messcook's sinks… Coffee urn… Air conditioning condensate drains… Head sinks… Urinals… Shower drains… And probably some stuff I forgot (Old age - CRS)… And finally, the heads (a.k.a. poopers, ****ters, thrones, best-seat-in-the-house, the perch, commode, toilet… You got it, the next to the last stop for processed Spam. To us, they were the 'thunder mugs and freckle makers.'

Once you got rated and qualified, you became a below decks watch stander. This honor took you out of the topside watch rotation and was an indication that the COB had found a small spark of intelligence that with his expert advice and guidance, could be fanned into the flame of Naval leadership. Or as in my case, he was short on below decks watchstanders and rolled the dice on whether, given the opportunity, I could sink the ship or trigger a mutiny.

I was given a clipboard - the vestment of below decks authority… And with the help of rig bills and intuitive awareness, I went forth to check bilges, wake up ungrateful bastards, render 'on service' fuel status reports, make one and two-way surface dump requests, and blow sanitaries.

There was an art to blowing sanitaries. First, you rigged the tank for blowing. That consisted of following a rig bill and closing all master and backup drain lines valves in lines leading to the sanitary tank. If some clown was in the shower, you did not say, "Hey champ, I'll catch the rest of the line-up and be back to pull the drain screen and T-handle the deck drain closed."

Why didn't you say this? Because nine times out of ten you would forget and create either a 225lb. ships' service air or external sea pressure fountain of high pressure decomposing doo-doo that would not increase your popularity with the shipmates in the affected compartment. Not that I was a flash in high school physics, but crap, like everything else in life, takes the path of least resistance. You leave a valve open and without fail, poop will make an unscheduled appearance. You really knew you were in trouble when the lid on the coffee urn began a little dance signifying the arrival and percolation of partially dissolved head tissue and accompanying commodities… Maxwell House with Scotts' Extra Fluffy just has to be consumed to really be fully appreciated.

If the 225lb. ships' service air held and the pressure began to build slowly, all drains were secure and you could open the overboard discharge. During the next few minutes, ships' service air overcame external sea pressure, forcing the contents of the sanitary tank out to sea. When the tank was nine-tenths clear, you secured the blow. In combat, an air bubble leaving the boat at 200 feet the size of an orange, would arrive at the surface the size of a VW bus.

So you secured the overboard discharge and vented the remaining air at whatever the external sea pressure was, back into the boat. This unique sensation can be replicated by feeding a buffalo hard-boiled eggs for a week then getting in a Chevy Nova with him and rolling the windows up. Someone once said we earned our sub pay based on inboard venting.

The heads were flushed by way of a rotating drum valve and a long handle. At the time we rode the old Tench class boats, they were approaching twenty years old (the equivalent of a 108 year old chorus girl or 650 dog years). By that time, the drum valves had worn to a point where a little air slipped past them, making the water seal in the head bowl percolate like a fizzing coke. If you happened to be parked on one at the time, it would leave little bubble splatters all over the cheeks of your fanny… Hence the origin of the term 'freckle makers'.

The sanitary system was a critical one and required a hell of a lot of attention. Most of the cast parts were brass and subject to verdigris corrosion (verdigris is that weird green stuff that grows on the base of 20 gauge shotgun shells). All the stuff was connected by copper line. A large part of my early submarine career was spent wire-brushing verdigris and Brasso-ing copper pipe. At the point you were between COBs, you painted as much copper pipe as you could get away with… We looked upon it as saving the tax paying public a small fortune in Brasso… Which also gave us more time to study etiquette and opera appreciation.

There is a very exclusive club in the submarine community. Very few submariners have been given the honor of admittance. Membership guarantees induction in the Deck Force Hall of Fame. The club is called, 'THE GRAND ORDER OF SUBMERSIBLE **** TANK DIVERS.'

When we went into the yards in '62, the Chief came up to me and said, "Dex, I'm thinking of a number between one and ten. If you can guess it correctly, you get a week with Gina Lollabrigida in any hotel you choose, with 20 cases of beer and a rental car thrown in."

"Chief, is Gina buck nekkit?"

"No son, her toenails are painted. If they weren't, she'd be buck nekkit."

"No cheap 'No-name' beer?"

"Imported beer."

"Gas in the car?"

"Full tank."

"Okay Chief, I'll take a shot at guessing the number…"

"Wait…There's something I haven't told you…"

"Yeh Chief, what?"

"If you don't guess the number I'm thinking of, you dive number two sanitary."

"Dive the **** tank?"

"You got it."

"...SIX!"

"No, but you really came close."

We all got close a lot but nobody ever got to spend a week with buck nekkit Gina… That poor woman must have spent a helluva lot of 1962 and '63 walking around with no clothes on, waiting for some submarine deck ape to guess the right number. We just kept losing and the COB kept winning.

I got to visit the inside of number two and scrape a lot of unidentifiable stuff off the interior surfaces. Later, the skipper put a page in my service record announcing that I had visited the inside of number two poop tank and would not have to do it again in my naval career.

Some people see Rome… Some Paris… I've visited inside #2 and I sign autographs.

onesubdrvr
11-17-2009, 08:44 PM
LOL, I must have been in one of my "tween" times when Chromie posted that lol

I always preferred blowing sanitaries to pumping,....

See on the 637 class and earlier, all the tanks were "blown" - Real men ride 637 class submarines, and yes, I rode one for many years, but alas, the Navy decided that these superior submarines were technically inferior to the LA class (688) submarines, so nearly all of the 637's were decomissioned. I also spent time on a couple of 688 class submarines; on the 688 class, we used a sanitary pump,.... Now this pump was originally designed to pump Ketchup for the Heinz factory. The valves that seal during the pumping are actually stainless steel balls that act as check valves. Well, thanks to idiots putting stuff in the sanitary tanks they shouldn't (non disolvable paper towls, toothpicks, gum, pens, etc.), on many occasions, one of these "items" would get caught up in these pumps between the valves (balls) and seats, then we would have to take the pump apart, remove the "item", put it back together and try again; NOT a pretty picture at all, I guarantee that at least once a week we were tearing that thing apart, and on many occasions, it was "emergent" because we would have to wait to pump the sanitaries overboard due to the nature of the operations we were doing / etc. that required silence, so when we got a chance to pump, we had to do it right away, and had limited time to get it done,....

Ate many sandwhiches crammed down in the "pump" room (forward part of the Torpedo Room,..... under the deck) rebuilding that friggin pump lol. Again, emergencies are emergencies lol

As a side note, I have "dived" several sanitary tanks,.... and yes, they are nasty,... one of the worse experiences; HOWEVER, you are expecting them to be nasty, so you are prepared,..... I've also been inside out Potable Water Tanks,.... and they are NASTY (because you expect them to be clean),.... can't stand anywhere because of all the "slime" build up,.... but, after coming out of the shipyard with clean tanks,.. the water just doesn't taste right,... until the scum builds back up lol

Wayne