People have opinions about their boats....

[gcarter]

concerning all sorts of things. Some won't paint their stripes.
They would only gelcoat them..."if Donzi did it that way, then it has to stay that way even if it does take ten times the effort to maintain" it!!
Others have seen the light and have painted them and now they have time to do other things.
Some won't have cleats on their boats even if they don't have a way to attach bumpers.
Some will foam in a new fuel tank (but only after it's properly prerared!!!!), while others wouldn't even if there was a chance of tank damage because they're so hard to support otherwise.
Some won't consider modernizing their instrument panels even though some of the components used 20 years ago are downright dangerous.
So we are a very opinionated bunch....to say the least.
I would like to hear from you concerning these and other things. Your reasons and convictions. What makes you tick about the care of your boat?
But the big thing I would like to hear about is.......
Why would an owner spend $3,000-$12,000 on a new engine and not use closed cooling on it? At about $700.00 it seems to me to be very resonable engine insurance. It gives significant protection to the cooling system and also the potential of increased performance due to higher operating temps.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.....I'd just like to understand the reasoning for your convictions.

This could be fun if everyone gets involved.

[Cuda]

George, I've noticed your recent fixation on closed cooling. :)

There are probably a couple of reasons people don't opt for CC. Number one is if they run in freshwater, it's a complete waste of time and money. Another reason, is Alpha drives don't pump a whole lot of water, and the CC tends to run warmer than RWC ( I know you don't have that problem with your crank mounted seawater pump). Another reason is they take up precious room in the engine compartment. Getting in the bilge of the Minx with even the RWC was no fun.

But to put your mind at rest, this is the current engine in the Minx. It's even harder to get my Buddah Belly around the exchanger. :)

I think it's a better idea to get the fixation on why more people don't run a seawater pump on Alpha drives. Every Alpha I've had has steam coming out the exhaust on one side (I forget which side), which I attribute to the lack of cooling water.

Current Minx engine.

[gcarter]

Joe it looks just like my engine!!! It is hard to get around.
The Alpha pump is a good point!
Another topic of discussion.

[HallJ]

I wouldn't mind having closed cooling.
It seems Merc specs a 140 deg thermostat on raw water cooled boats which kind of scares me.
I was thinking it might reduce thermal shock when the thermostat opens and the cold water hits the engine.
I'm running a 160 deg thermo.

Jeff

[Mac]

Closed cooling allows the engine to run at a constant temp which is needed for modern MPI motors to operate correctly. It is very hard to precisely control engine temp when cooling with raw water.

[Cuda]

I wouldn't mind having closed cooling.
It seems Merc specs a 140 deg thermostat on raw water cooled boats which kind of scares me.
I was thinking it might reduce thermal shock when the thermostat opens and the cold water hits the engine.
I'm running a 160 deg thermo.
Jeff
Merc installs 140 degree tstats probably because above 140, salt water will begin dropping crystallized salt above that. Running in fresh water with 160 won't hurt anything. Last I checked, there is no salt water in Minnesota. :)

[gcarter]

Another reason for our Northern friends, is that it simplifies ( but not eliminating) winterizing, as the engine is filled with anti-freeze.

[gcarter]

Another would be, again for people who run in cold water and have an engine oil cooler, is that it's difficult to get the oil up to normal operating temperature.

Oh yeah Scott, it's only two extra hoses.

[yeller]

I believe in doing whatever you like to your boat. If you want to mount a giant scoop on the bow :eek!: ...go ahead. Doesn't matter if other people don't like it....it's your boat, not theirs.

I much prefer gel (I don't live in an area where fading is a major problem), but if I had to redo my boat, I'd probably paint it just because, doing it myself, I know I'd get better results.

Closed cooling?....I'm glad my boat came with it, but if it didn't, I don't think I'd invest in it. I feel salt water is only a problem if you don't flush after each use. After an outing in the salt, I don't just flush my motor, I hose down everthing....inside and out. Personally I've never agreed with the general concensus that you get better performance with a higher operating temperature. I ran my SBC for years without a thermostat, then I installed one and lost 4mph. Removed it the next season and regained the lost mph. I don't know, but maybe temp makes a difference on the newer computer controlled engines.

Basically...I believe the owner should do whatever they like to their boat. I love a clean, restored, stock boat...but I also love wild, modified boats. As long as they are clean and well maintained, I'll have an appreciation for it. :yes:

[Cuda]

Another would be, again for people who run in cold water and have an engone oil cooler, is that it's difficult to get the oil up to normal operating temperature.
Oh yeah Scott, it's only two extra hoses.
That's what they invented thermostats for. :)

[Morgan's Cloud]

OK ,
I'll chime in on the FWC issue and wait and see where it goes on the other 'issues ' .
I'm a big proponent of FWC. I ordered it for the 502 in the Magnum from the factory.
Problem is , when I go to repower the St T. there is'nt any room for it. It's going to be tight as it is anyway and anyone who's familiar with the St T's know that every cubic inch of bilge/engineroom is used.(And there's no space to remote it either)
Anyways , the new engine is going to be a Volvo and they have a handy dandy flushing attachment on the front of the engine.
As an aside, A good mate of mine owns a very succesful marine business that he started from scratch about 20 years ago.
CAT and OMC trained/certified. I asked him his take on FWC many years ago and he said that he was'nt that big on it ....'I've never seen it rust through an engine yet before you have to repower...' (Besides the manifolds are always raw water cooled at one point) Not that I actually agree completely with this , but it was a professional's opinion .
Now on to the other points .... did someone mention FOAM ?

[Marlin275]

A: Cause a properly flushed engine is going to last a lonnnng time...

What is proper?
I flush for 10 minutes, is that standard?
I have read that some members do 20 minutes with soap in the water when they run in salt.
The Hudson is about 17% salt round here.

[Morgan's Cloud]

the ony use I have for salt water is to cook my pasta ;) :p
I guess if you lived out here you'd be sat on the dock all day watching everyone else enjoy boating.
(albiet with a lot more maintenence than you're lucky enough to have to endure)

[gcarter]

As some of you know, I'm in the water treatment business. So the conditions of things soaking in water on a continuous basis is pretty familiar to me.
Part of the reasoning on softening the water in your home is to rid your home's plumbing of scaling. Hard water can do a significant amount of damage to the plumbing and major appliances. Solenoid valves get scaled up and stop operating, i.e., ice makers, washing machines, etc. Heating elements in water heater are very susceptable to hard water scaling, because of the disolved calcium carbonate and the elevated temperature of the water. Eventually the heating element will burn out because the calcium carbonate reduces the heat transfer to the water so drastically. Testing done by the University of New Mexico concluded that softening your home's water can save 30% in energy consumption of the water heater.
This is kind of like the inside of your head's water jacket in the area of the combustion chambers. These surfaces are probably the hottest part of your engine. When calcium carbonate scales up the water jacket surfaces, it significantly reduces heat transfer just like the scaled up heating elements in your homes heating elements. This scaling would not be visible to inspection w/o sawing up the head. If your engine has EFI, the knock sensor probably will not allow detonation. But if it's carbed, you might have detonation due to hot spots due to calcium carbonate scaling.
If you were to buy a new car, you wouldn't even think of not running anti freeze. Why not with a boat? The engine is probably just as expensive.
When I filled my closed cooling system, I used a mix of reverse osmosis (purified) water and Dex Cool. My engine will NEVER scale as long as I maintain this.

[Donzigo]

I've run in salt water for 30 years. Don't think I've ever run in freash water.......ever, not that I wouldn't love tto only have fresh water run through my engines. However, I have always flushed for 10 minutes with detergent through the engine and salt has never been an issue. It's just another thing I do with clean up.

As for the salt water boating environment, being in the Gulf offers limitless options for boating and the conditions constantly change. I never see two boating days alike.

So, which is better?............square or round? It's in your head.

LOL -------- We like cooking pasta with salt water. We also like cooking shrimp on beach, while enjoying a cool beverage, watching the sunset over the Gulf, at the end of a great day of boating. It's all good.

[Cuda]

But the big thing I would like to hear about is.......
Why would an owner spend $3,000-$12,000 on a new engine and not use closed cooling on it? At about $700.00 it seems to me to be very resonable engine insurance. .

Look at my rant in the fuel pump thread of mine. I swear to Christ, if this system gets in my way ONE MORE TIME, I'm pulling it off, and throwing it in the friggin canal behind the house.:mad:

[MOP]

There is another issue with raw cooling, high speed over pressure of the system. Head gaskets will only hold just so much pressure, I am sure most of you at one time or another have noticed the rust marks just below the heads. Usualy noted when you change exhaust manifolds, CC system run about 15psi, I remember a post by big griz stating the pressure can get into the low triple digits that was one of his reasons for CC. Merc offers a pressure relief valve which is preset at 30psi twice the norm, I like many have some decent $$ in my engine I run CC at a constant 180 degrees with a 14psi cap would not be without! I do agree it is a major PIA taking up a lot of space!!!

Phil

[gcarter]

You can always mount it on the stringers.
Also you can block off the pump boss and use a Holley electric pump. You can mount it pretty near any where you want it. I like it a lot. Also they don't cost all that much. Jeggs has Holley Blue marine pumps w/ a regulater for a little over $100.00.

[Cuda]

You can always mount it on the stringers.
Also you can block off the pump boss and use a Holley electric pump. You can mount it pretty near any where you want it. I like it a lot. Also they don't cost all that much. Jeggs has Holley Blue marine pumps w/ a regulater for a little over $100.00.
There's a lot of things I could do, but if I had it to do over again, I would not, ever put it on there again. I don't like drilling holes in my stringers, I don't like anything electrical that I can run mechanically on a boat, and I'm certainly not getting any thinner.

Mop, you can get pressure relief valves lower than that psi.

[gcarter]

and I'm certainly not getting any thinner.
Have you heard of the South Beach Diet?:wink:

[Cuda]

Have you heard of the South Beach Diet?:wink:
No, but I have heard of a cutting torch.

[catch 22]

Now where the hell did I put the Popcorn.:biggrin.: :biggrin.:

[Craig]

I'm not sure about doing "anything" to a boat.

A while back, I bought the white boat pictured below as a project. It is, believe it or not, a 1964 mahogany plywood Dunphy X-55. This is my "other favorite boat" ever since I was a kid.

In the course of its 5 or 6 owners, it got a fiberglass patch (a wrong thing to do), it got painted white because of the patch (wrong), and it has had its neat classic curved windshield swapped out for the current "early mid 80's" Ski Nautique winshield (wrong again!).

The mahogany one with the blue and white vynil deck is close to it's original look.

Now the red one is not quite original, but, I think, not "wrong" either. If you change something, do a good job. That's the main thing, but there's a lot to be said for original (I think).

[Donziweasel]

Sweet boat! I wouldn't consider closed cooling because I run in clean, cool mountain water. There are so many boats around here that are 30+ years old and run great. My engine never gets over 150 degrees and the water is so clear and clean that it seems to be great for the boats around here. I don't know anyone with closed here. The only problem I can think of is that we do have hard water which can leave deposits, but these can be cleaned.

[mphatc]

Closed cooling . . . would be nice, but there's just no room in an old Corsican , and I wanted to maintain the simlicity of the original . though in the end I didn't, but that's another story.

What I'd like to learn from this is cooling water pressure . . and control . .

I have fresh water cooling on my H&M 302 that now puts out 360 HP . . the pump is a Johnson flange mounted crank driven, the drive is a Bravo I. I run a 160 degree Tstat and have yet to see a coolant temp close to that on my gauge. Measuring my intake manifold and my heads/ block with an infrared I get 140 degrees.

To date I have blown out the teflon gasket on the Johnson pump cover and suspect this is from too much pressure . . ???? I really want to get the temps up higher closer to the 160 , How????

Mario L.

[gcarter]

Closed cooling . . . would be nice, but there's just no room in an old Corsican , and I wanted to maintain the simlicity of the original . though in the end I didn't, but that's another story.
What I'd like to learn from this is cooling water pressure . . and control . .
I have fresh water cooling on my H&M 302 that now puts out 360 HP . . the pump is a Johnson flange mounted crank driven, the drive is a Bravo I. I run a 160 degree Tstat and have yet to see a coolant temp close to that on my gauge. Measuring my intake manifold and my heads/ block with an infrared I get 140 degrees.
To date I have blown out the teflon gasket on the Johnson pump cover and suspect this is from too much pressure . . ???? I really want to get the temps up higher closer to the 160 , How????
Mario L.
Mario, ultimately it's a function of the water temp you run in. Here in Florida, the water temp is always above 75* (right now it's about 85*) and under load, say 50 MPH over 5 minutes, I'll be running about 190*. If I slow down, it'll go back down to about 165*.
Why don't you try a 180* t'stat?

[gcarter]

I'm probably running the same Johnson pump you are and a SM transom pickup. My gasket drips, but hasn't blown out.
When I run on the hose, the system sees full hose pressure before the engine starts, maybe 50 PSI, that's when I see it drip. I calculated the pitot pressure would be about 53 PSI @ about 60 MPH.
I would think it should hold that.

[Team Jefe]

What the heck is Closed Cooling...You have to have water going into the motor from the lower unit pick ups and come out the pee hole right below the cowling:lookaroun

As for how each owner should care for his boat...there is lots of good advice here for that.

As for what they should do to their boat....I think my opinion has been made pretty clear on that in an earlier thread.

Matty - Bring you Honorable Gentlemanly a$$ to Texas and I'll have you loving that saltwater:wink:

[DonCig]

Hey Jeff, I do not want to point out the obvious. But your signature just took up more room on the post than your statement. Can we just call your "Fast Fish Guts with Good Looking Bait" and drop all the Southern Protocall? LOL

Your friend Don!



What the heck is Closed Cooling...You have to have water going into the motor from the lower unit pick ups and come out the pee hole right below the cowling:lookaroun
As for how each owner should care for his boat...there is lots of good advice here for that.
As for what they should do to their boat....I think my opinion has been made pretty clear on that in an earlier thread.
Matty - Bring you Honorable Gentlemanly a$$ to Texas and I'll have you loving that saltwater:wink:

[BUIZILLA]

Each of my boats has a different personality

kinda like my kids...

so, I treat them as the individuals that they want to be

JH

[Team Jefe]

Hey Jeff, I do not want to point out the obvious. But your signature just took up more room on the post than your statement. Can we just call your "Fast Fish Guts with Good Looking Bait" and drop all the Southern Protocall? LOL
Your friend Don!

NO:smash: I'm tired of being called Jeffy, Jeffa, Team Jeff or other various versions of the wrong name...Ok so my name is JEFF, but still.....when I go to a Donzi event a everyone uses Jefe correctly then I will loose the dictionary.....until then:lookaroun

....I do got some good looking bait...I mean deckhand though:biggrin.:

[Team Jefe]

There...Are you happy now?

Besides Poodle, you haven't seen the 'sota thread lately....as I told Jim, I won't be up late. I gotta go to bed early for church:wink: