Questions About My 2006 22 Classic

[DudeHoss]

Hey Guys,

I went down to Florida last weekend and picked up my 2006 22 Classic. It’s a nice boat and it only had 21 hours on it when I picked it up. We brought it back and I've only had a few hours of stick time in it since. The boat has the 496 HO and the Mirage 25P Prop. My questions start with a torque steer that the boat has at higher RPMs and when under acceleration. The Boat torques hard to the left which I don't understand because it’s a right hand rotation prop. Is this a characteristic of this boat? My next problem is that my outdrive doesn't stay trimmed up when under power. If I trim it up for the trailer or when I'm in shallow water, there is not problem. The hydraulic system is a little less than half full. Is it too low? Could that be the reason the drive won't stay up? I don't think the seals are gone or damaged cause there is no sign of oil in the water when I adjust it up or down. On our trip back from Florida we took precautions to lock the outdrive up so it wouldn't strain the hydraulics.

Last Question... Back a while ago I wrote and asked how to remove the hook in a 22's hull. Well that is definitely not an issue with this boat. The way this boat behaves I don't think it has any sign of a hook. In the newer hulls have they removed the hook and does anyone else have quiet a bit of porpoising?

[boldts]

does anyone else have quiet a bit of porpoising? - Try running a Precission Propellers prop on the boat. (Turbo 1 or if you want real stability, the TXP 4 blade. The Hydromotive Quad 4 also runns well on the 22 Classic) There are those who say the Mirage Plus that comes with the boat works better and is faster. Sure if you want to spend another $500 to have the prop modified and labbed by Throttle Up in FL. No disrespect intended toward Throttle Up or any other prop shop. Julie there knows props. My point is the cost to make a prop work the way it should from the factory. Turbos are being run by owners here on the boards with big horsepower in front of them. I myself running a stock 454MAG carbed engine gained 3 mph by simply changing to a Turbo 1 prop. However, I never tried a Mirage Plus due to the expense of buying one. My 22 porpoised like Flipper until I opened her up to full throttle. Then she would settle down and run still very loose. Mine had a Mirage, not the plus. Switched to the Turbo 1 and all handling issues were gone through the whole rpm range and like I said, I gained 3 more mph on the top end.

No, I'm not a Precission Props salesman. I'm just stating my experience. Good luck with your new Classic. Hope to have the opportunity to meet you someday. Take Care and be safe on the water.

[DudeHoss]

I've read a lot of posts regarding the props people are using and I think you are right on the money. The prop wouldn't have anything to do with the torque steer I'm dealing with, would it?

[DonziJon]

Hey Guys,
I went down to Florida last weekend and picked up my 2006 22 Classic. It’s a nice boat and it only had 21 hours on it when I picked it up. We brought it back and I've only had a few hours of stick time in it since. The boat has the 496 HO and the Mirage 25P Prop. My questions start with a torque steer that the boat has at higher RPMs and when under acceleration. The Boat torques hard to the left which I don't understand because it’s a right hand rotation prop. Is this a characteristic of this boat? My next problem is that my outdrive doesn't stay trimmed up when under power. If I trim it up for the trailer or when I'm in shallow water, there is not problem. The hydraulic system is a little less than half full. Is it too low? Could that be the reason the drive won't stay up? I don't think the seals are gone or damaged cause there is no sign of oil in the water when I adjust it up or down. On our trip back from Florida we took precautions to lock the outdrive up so it wouldn't strain the hydraulics.
Last Question... Back a while ago I wrote and asked how to remove the hook in a 22's hull. Well that is definitely not an issue with this boat. The way this boat behaves I don't think it has any sign of a hook. In the newer hulls have they removed the hook and does anyone else have quiet a bit of porpoising?

Sounds like you have AIR in the hydraulic system. Fill up the resevoir to the mark and "cycle" the drive fully up and down a dozen or more times. It is "Self Bleeding" and will shed the air. Air will prevent the drive from staying trimmed up under power because air is compressible and fluid is not. John

[DudeHoss]

Dumb question... I have read my Mercruiser manual 10 times and I can't find what hydraulic fluid to use is there anything inpaticular I need to find for it. I will be buying it at a boat store and it will probably say mercruiser on the bottle. I just don't know what weight or type to get.

[boldts]

Your boat has internal power steering doesn't it? Shouldn't be feeling any torque steer through the steering wheel because of the power steering I would think. Mine had internal hydraulic steering. There was never any torque steer no matter which prop was on the boat. Now, if we we're talking about an early Volvo 250 drive, until the correct prop is put on it, there is often a great deal of torque steer. Especially if the torque tab on a Volvo isn't adjusted correctly. Sorry, got off on a tangent there. Maybe someone with more experience can comment on the steering issue. Maybe make sure the power steering fluid is full sense you mentioned that maybe the drive fluid was low?

[yeller]

Hey Guys,
In the newer hulls have they removed the hook and does anyone else have quiet a bit of porpoising?

Oh yea...LOTS. If someone tells you you can cure the porpoise with a prop change...find out what year boat they run. Not slamming you Boldts, it just seems there are more new boats with porpoising issues than older ones. Not saying a prop change won't work....it's just not a guaranted solution. I switched to the Hydro Q4 and it didn't help the porpoise one bit.

If you want a Turbo prop, contact MadPoodle.
If you want a Hydro, use Throttle-Up (Don't do as I did and deal with Hydro directly) Julie knows what works on our boats better than Hydro.

[undertaker]

I have a 05 22 classic 496 HO had the 25 mirage plus porpose a lot but fast switched to a 25 turbo porpose almost gone still have some and just a tick slower than the mirage but I need more seat time with this prop. IMO you need A LOT OF SEAT TIME in these 22 classics I have boated all my life (36 yrs old) and have driven boats since I was 6 yrs old 22's are NOT a boat you jump in and run over 70 mph with without some seat time....:) So I would suggest getting MORE seat time and then screw with props and once your get the right prop dialed in then put the new CMI'S on...:yes: :yes: :) :) . Anyway good luck with the new ride.... keep us posted on your progress...


Undertaker:pimp:

PS It is also good IMO to attend some events and pick some of the experience 22 classic guys brains (Madpoodle, Roadtrip, Dr. Dan to name a few) it can't hurt..:bonk:

[DonziJon]

Dumb question... I have read my Mercruiser manual 10 times and I can't find what hydraulic fluid to use is there anything inpaticular I need to find for it. I will be buying it at a boat store and it will probably say mercruiser on the bottle. I just don't know what weight or type to get.

Ask your Mercruiser dealer..Doesn't have to be a Donzi dealer. If it's RED, it's probably (ATF) .."Automatic Transmission Fluid". BE SURE... before you add anything. John :bonk:

[DudeHoss]

After reading your posts, I am starting to get really concerned. My 22 is cranking hard left under acceleration. I have to counter steer a quarter of a turn. I have power steering. No one else is mentioning this problem and it seems to be fairly severe. I have lots of seat time in a twin engine Cigarette but this boat is completely different. What could be the problem that makes a boat turn a lean left under acceleration?

Oh!!! One other thing! (Keep in mind my boat has 24 hours on it) Sometimes when I shift to neutral my transmision hangs up a and make a loud whining noise. Anyone know what I'm talking about???

[undertaker]

Dude not sure about your torgue steer issue maybe poodle, buizilla, Mr. X etc. can chime in with some suggestions, but as far as your comment on a lot of seat time in a twin engine cig. I understand completly I downsized from a 2002 33ZX to my 05 22 classic ran the sh.. out of the 33ZX no problems drive the 22 for the first time and went oh boy totally different talked to Dr. Dan quite a bit and he said get your seat time and then you will have a ball I am getting more seat time and am really starting to enjoy the boat a lot. :) :) Good luck hope some others here can steer you in the right direction...:yes: :yes:



Undertaker:boat:

PS Sorry for the long post:bonk: :bonk:

[boldts]

Not slamming you Boldts Yeller, no problem at all. My Classic was a 1999 and a total different setup from the newer ones. Mine had a 1.36:1 Bravo1 which because it had a stock 454, required much smaller pitch prop than what you all are running. Maybe that had nothing to do with this equation, but one thing I know is that a Mirage prop was way wrong for my boat. Advice from other board members and the price for what I got is what lead me to the Turbo1. That's what we're all here for, to learn from each other and give any help we can. Take Care!

[ChromeGorilla]

Under hard accelration the boat will roll to the left a little..... when cutting the thottle quickly it will roll right. After owning my boat for a while now, drivin the nuts off of it and asking a million questions on how to "improve this, or change that" I have come to the conclusion that the boat is what it is.... live it and love it and like it. I have no problem with the 25 Mirage +. some porpoising around slower speeds .... but nothing that can't be corrected and who wants to cruise around at 40 MPH any way????? :wink:

I honestly like everything about a stock 496HO 22...... not saying I wouldn't mind some CMI's though.....:yes: :tongue: :yes:

[DudeHoss]

Hey Scott,

I have seen your videos and your pictures. In one video I love the angle you have your boat trimmed at. I think the video title is something 411. Are you at WOT in the video? It didn't look look like you had any porpoising at all. I can't seem to trim my boat out like that yet. I also have to get my outdrive working properly before I can even attempt that though. Have you talked with other people about the roll to the left on the boat. When it rolls left how much compensation do you need in your boat to keep it straight?

[gcarter]

Yep.
I recently installed an internal hydraulic/power steering system on the Minx.
I was asked by Buizilla if the power steering was essential, I replied I wasn't sure.
One day I threw the P/S belt and found out why the P/S is there. Easy to turn to the left, a real handful to turn to the right. With the P/S it's completely neutral.

[Cuda]

Yep.
I recently installed an internal hydraulic/power steering system on the Minx.
I was asked by Buizilla if the power steering was essential, I replied I wasn't sure.
One day I threw the P/S belt and found out why the P/S is there. Easy to turn to the left, a real handful to turn to the right. With the P/S it's completely neutral.
Try losing the power steering on a 30 footer with surface drives. :(

[yeller]

DudeHoss,
You're torque steer does seem excessive. I whine about every irregularity on my boat :bawling: ....and there are lots of them with the Classic. That's just the nature of the hull design. It's also what makes them ride so well once you get it dialed in. If I had any torque steer with mine, I would have been asking questions here a long time ago. I also run a bigger prop than you so by all accounts it should be worse. The boat definately wants to roll to the left, but it doesn't noticably try to steer left. I'd PM one or all of the guys undertaker mentioned to get a more experienced opinion.
You could put out a thread looking for owners in your area. That way you could get them in your boat and see what they think.

[RedDog]

When I bought my '98 22C w/502 Mag it had a 25" Mirage+ and porpoised a lot. For the first run last year (or was it the year before?) and ever since I have been running a 25" Turbo 1. Honestly, I didn't note a difference from hte Mirage+ - but then there had been a winter between the last run with the Mirage and the first spring run with the Turbo.

Since I dinged up the Turbo today - repairs required :( - I'll try the Mirage+ again tomorrow. Maybe it is different; maybe not. I'll report back

[ChromeGorilla]

Dudehoss, is that the video where the sky is really overcast? If so yes I was pretty close to if not wide open.

In a nut shell, this is how I drive my boat....not saying this is for everyone, but I find it most effective for me.

I come on plane with my tabs down pretty far and drive all the way in. When on plane I slowly bring drive up so as the boat rides level and is not forcing the bow down. The drive would actually give a positive trim except remember I got the tabs down pretty good. Next I start to raise my tabs until my boat starts getting a little positive trim. You can see and feel the bow raise up. I am unable to run the boat without some tab in the water. If I raise the tabs all the way up the boat gets crazy scary.

Now mind you this whole coming on plane and adjusting procedure happens within the first few moments of coming on plane and it's all by feel..... (seat time) I remember when I first bought the boat people saying with seat time you'll get it.... In the back of my head I was thinking "I've drivin boats all my life... seat time my ass...." Well, they were right.

The one and only time I can raise them all the way up is when running WFO. Even then I better be ready to drop tabs or the drive cuz the slightest wave seems like it would send me skyward. But when the water permits I can trim her and haul some butt.

Another thing I believe comes into play is all the quirks of the 22 were much much more noticable when you first own the boat. I don't even notice any of it now. Quirks are still there but you learn them and correct for them and you won't even notice your doing it when driving... you kind get used to them and embrace them.

Hope this helps...... if you had bought my boat you wouldn't be having these issues....:wink: :tongue: :wink:

Take care, Scott

[ChromeGorilla]

OK found the video you were talking about....

http://www.donzi.net/photopost/data/500/411sweet.mpg


I love that video. If you watch the video and then watch it again pausing it, you can see no porpoise at all.... the boat was carrying the bow very nicely. It was running strong in the cool air. The hull doesn't even touch the hull untill about the bench seat. Making a cameo in the video is Speedracer who was sitting on the bench taking a picture of Last Tango and Crackerjack riding in marks old 18.

[DonziDave]

I know this is reaching a bit, but since the boat is new to you, check to make sure your trim tabs are fully retracted. Dragging a tab could cause steering torque. :confused:

[ChromeGorilla]

Unless he put one tab way down I don't think this is it. His boats tabs retract all the way up when the boat is shut off. So unless he drops one tab way down after he launches i don't think this wil be it. it's just a quirk of the boat.

[Formula Jr]

Dudehoss, half the fun of remote diagnosis is trying to exactly nail the cause of certain problems people may be having. You have two: the torque steer pull to port and the slow loss of drive trim. The common thread to both is that the systems were not bled of air correctly. Since the boat only has 21 hours on it, it may have never been purged of air correctly,... even from the factory.

[LKSD]

If the trim fluid is red atf. If amber its straight 30wt engine oil.

For my unbiased prop test results on my 2006 22c click below.. Jamie / Lakeside :)

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45138

[DudeHoss]

Thank you guys.

After getting some good seat time today the quarks seemed to be less and less. I am however loosing the outdrive trim still. I filled it and and ran the drive up and down a dozen or so times. What is the proceedure for bleeding the system properly? I was trimming the boat out the same way you described today Scott and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. My problem is adjusting the trim every few seconds to keep it where I want it. I have to get this fixed! I'm looking for threads where people mention this. JW your prop test is phenominal I have read it several times. I thank you for taking the time to postr your results. It will be a great guide when I'm ready to reprop this thing.

When you guys say your getting 74 mph out of the 496 HO are you talking fresh water? Just curious because I was running hard for a little while today and couldn't break 65 and I was trimmed out pretty light. The water was anything but ideal. Lots of Sunday slop on my Texas lake today.

Hope everyone had a great weekend!!!

[yeller]

.....I was running hard for a little while today and couldn't break 65 and I was trimmed out pretty light.
Don't worry, it'll come. If you couldn't break 65, my guess is because of your drive issue (not staying trimmed up) or you still had too much tabs in the water. It's absolutely amazing how much speed you can pick up when raising the tabs. If you were running in sloppy water, I'm positive you would have had to have the tabs in the water. I am nowhere near being able to run my boat flat out yet, but I am learning. (I only have about 30hrs experience). Every time I go out it gets a little easier to handle and I can go a little faster. I was comfortably cruising at 70 today....that was a first. It's frustrating, but the rewards will come. I look forward to learning something new every time I go out.

[LKSD]

We ran in fresh water we had best results by running neutral trim & tab after around 40-45mph when the bit porposing that was there stopped. Once I am getting up cloaser to 50 & beyond the boat runs flatter & smoother. J

[RickSE]

...gets crazy scary. ...

:yes: but I love it. My thoughts are that if you can drive a healthy powered 22-Classic at WOT you can drive just about anything.

Like Yeller says, ditto on the tabs, they'll keep you below 70.

[DudeHoss]

I think your right. I did have some tabs in the water to keep her under control. I caused me to get beat by a Baja that was going by. How embarrassing... I'm a disgrace to this forum.

How do I bleed the Hydraulics to get the air out???

[LKSD]

It will bleed when you trim it up & down completely a few times. If it looses trim after you set it where you want it & there are no leaks then you may have an internal ram(s) problem or a pump valve body issue... :) Jamie / Lakeside

[ChromeGorilla]

:yes: but I love it. My thoughts are that if you can drive a healthy powered 22-Classic at WOT you can drive just about anything.
.



Rick I agree 100%. The confidence this boat has givin me as well as the boat handling skills I have learned through its ownership are alot. I had a friend in NY who has owned boat all his life including a 353 Fastech, that couldn't drive my boat worth a lick. Short of driving a cat for the first time, I would be VERY confident driving any Vee hull.

[ChromeGorilla]

DudeHoss.... the losing trim part is wierd.....:bonk: I think once you get that issue worked out you'lll be good to go! Sounds like you are starting to pick up on how it "should" feel when everything is just right.....:yes: Good luck!

[Formula Jr]

There are two methods of bleeding air from the system. One is just to actuate the drive full up and full down about 1O times. The other method is more involved and usually only done when the system is first installed or if a ram is rebuilt or replaced.

First figure out what you have in the system all ready as fluid. If its red, as jw mentioned, its ATF, if its amber its 10-30 motor oil. Have at hand some more of what ever is in it. Place the drive in the full down position. Take the top off your fluid reservoir and fill it to the top. Get lots of rags and two very clean pans to catch fluid.

Facing the transom, you'll have four hydrualic lines. Two for each of the rams.
You will have what is called the "Low pressure" pump system. The end of the rams that connect to the Gimble Ring is where the Up/Out hoses attach to the top of the cylinder. The Down/In hoses attach at the other end and bottom of the cylinder. Disconnect both the Up Out Hoses where they connect to the cylinder. Position them so they will squirt fluid into the collection pans. Have someone operate the trim up switch till you can't see any air bubbles in the stream of fluid and checking to be sure you don't run out of fluid in the reservoir. Then reconnect the trim hoses to the Cylinder.

Refill your reservoir.

Now dissconnect the Down/In hoses where they connect to the gimble housing transfer block. This is the same block that all the hoses connect to.
The Down/In hoses are the ones closest to you and go to the other bottom end of the Cylinders. Plug the screw in holes with a bolt of identical thread and diameter of the flange nut. Brass would be nice here.....you don't want to mess up these internal threads. Take the disconnected ends of the down/in hoses and point them to your collection pans. Have some one press the trim Down switch while you check for air bubbles. Same as before. This time try to stop when the reservoir is drained to the full mark or slightly below that.

Take out the bolts you used as plugs, reconnect the Down/In hoses. Now check and fill the reservoir to the full mark. Run the drive up and down 10 times.

Check for visable leaks. The ONLY way you can lose fluid is through a leak. All systems have tiny leaking which you can't normally see or detect. So you only have to add a little fluid once a season. If you are still losing trim, but your fuid level is unchanged, then the problem is internal

Next time you run, and you are still losing trim then there is something wrong with the check valves in the pump assembly or the little check balls in the rams. Thats more involved than I want to write about.

Good Luck.

[DudeHoss]

Thank you so much Formula!!!

I will attempt this tonight. I hope it isn't a bad valve body. I wouldn't expect that it is being new and all. My plan tonight:

I'm going to remove all of the fluid in the reservoir just incase the oil is contaminated in any way. I will fill it with fresh 10w 30 oil and start the process of running any air out of the lines while I have some one keep the reservoir full and another person operate the trim. I will know on Wednesday night if the problem is cured. Thank you again for all of your help.


OK NEXT PROBLEM

My Lavorsi oil filled spedometer has a bubble in it. It may have a small leak. They aren't supposed to have any air in them right? How should I go about getting it replaced. I don't really want to put it in the shop in the middle of summer. Do I need to settle this issue with Lavorsi or Donzi? Has anyone else had this problem with Lavorsi.

[gcarter]

Dude, the gauge is filled with glycerine, not oil. At least they are in most liquid filled gauges. A small bubble won't make any difference. I've seen industrial liquid filled gauges that were only 80% filled. The glycerine is only there for needle damping.

[yeller]

They all have the bubble. It's normal.

[DudeHoss]

Thanks Yeller!

OK last Question! I must have bought a Lemon because my Fuel gauge appears to be terribly inaccurate. It seems to read Full until I get to about a half tank and then it goes down from there. Anyone else with a similar problem?

The boat is going to the shop on August 1st to have the hydraulic motor for the trim replaced and I was going to have them look at the Gas gauge.

[LKSD]

The fuel gauges are a generaliztion of what you have in the tank. On the classics it usually shows full for a while & then drops almost immediatley to 1/2 & then drinks the rest in wht seems to be a fairly short ammount of time. You could replace the sender, but I dont think it will help. The boat fuel gauges are not as accurate as a cars in many cases.. Jamie / Lakeside

[RedDog]

Thanks Yeller!
OK last Question! I must have bought a Lemon because my Fuel gauge appears to be terribly inaccurate. It seems to read Full until I get to about a half tank and then it goes down from there. Anyone else with a similar problem?
The boat is going to the shop on August 1st to have the hydraulic motor for the trim replaced and I was going to have them look at the Gas gauge.

Its because the bottom half of the tank is vee-shaped. The sender measures fuel level - not fuel volume

[ChromeGorilla]

OK dudehoss...... tank will read full until it's about 3/4 gone, at which time the gauge drops from full to about 1/2. So when the gauge reads half treat that as 1/4....... when gauge reads 1/4 , treat it as 1/8th. Furthest I have got out of a single tank is about 130 miles..... usually closer to 100 miles.

[DudeHoss]

Chrome & JW you guys are right on. Thats exactly what mine does. I'm glad to hear thats the case with everybody elses. There are so many little things on this boat to get use to.

Hey Chrome how much faster is your boat in salt water vs fresh?

[txtaz]

Once again...
Hey Livorsy is carrying the new electronic senders now...Cooolllll....http://www.livorsi.com/catalog/waterproof.htm

They work with odd shaped tanks and give a linear indication of volumn. Plus no moving parts so no needle bounce on the gauge.

Da Taz

[ChromeGorilla]

Dudehoss.... usualy 1-2 MPH... but my all time 2 best GPS runs were on fresh.......???? I dunno.

[Formula Jr]

Dudehoss, the motor doesn't need replacement if its moving the drive up and down. Its the valve assembly that could be leaking internally. Or your port side ram.

In other words, don't just tell a the shop to replace the trim motor. You need a bleed down test of the valve assembly.