1st ride in the new 22C

[yeller]

Took the boat out for its 1st ride...or maybe that should be it took me out for my 1st ride. HOLY COW MAN!...18yrs with the 16C never prepared me for this. The 16 (jet drive) was simple and a pure pleasure to drive. The 22 was just down right scary.:eek!:
My experience with outdrives is limited and experience with the 22C is zero, so I'll tell ya how my ride went and maybe someone can tell me if it's the wrong prop, my poor driving, or that's the way it is and I'm just a big sissy:cartman: :rolleyes:
The entire ride was spent listing to port side due to prop torque. Weight in the boat was well balance. I tabbed that side a bit, but not much just because I wanted to see how the hull rode. The porpusing (spelling?) was insane. Drive was tucked in the whole time. If I trimmed it up even a bit, the boat would want to launch. This is only in a 1 foot chop.
Managed to hit 60 once...but only once. Basically, couldn't get it above 50. As I slowly applied throttle above 50, it would feel like the stern/prop was climbing out of the water (to the starboard) and the port side listing would increase. Then all of a sudden, the bow would hammer down HARD to the port and I'd have to back off. All this was with the drive tucked in. Tried with 0 tabs and about 30% tabs with same results.
Drive combo: 496/Procharged, Bravo1x, 4 blade 28P Bravo1.
All opinions (good, bad, sarcastic) are welcome. Fire away:fire:
Hope to get Lenny, Thriller, or Blueliner out for a ride soon to get an experienced opinion.

[RedDog]

Lose the Bravo prop and go with a Turbo I (3 blade) or a Hydromotive Quad 4 blade. A Mirage Plus would also be better than the Bravo. I think the Bravo prop is recommended for some hulls but definitiely not on a Classic

That should fix you up

[MOP]

In two words!!! Seat time, you have a lot more ponies then most. Take your time you will get the feel and be fine the 22 is a real good handling boat.

Phil

[gold-n-rod]

A lot of this has to do with increased seat time. The first time I piloted my 16, I had the same reaction. I ran her trimmed in and squeezed the wheel so hard my fingers were sore. I ran the tabs way down because of the porposing.

Slowly, I experimented with the tabs and trim and got more comfortable with the way she responded. Now, I can fly her with the best of them.

It just takes practice. Oh, and it may be propped wrong as mentioned. It's possible the previous owner never dialed in the correct prop. You may want to consider a 3 blade prop for this application, too.

Keep us posted.

:wavey:

[RickSE]

:biggrin: :yes: :shocking:

Yeller, welcome to the big power 22 club. From what I've heard I'd have to agree with Poodle and the others, get rid of the Bravo prop; too much stern lift. I've still yet to run anything other than my labbed Mirage+ prop but intend to try a Hydro this summer. My X-dim is up a little and agressive tabs are a must for a comfortable ride below 55-60 MPH. I gave up trying to accelerate my boat without tabs a long time ago; too much prop torque and porpoise down low. Once I break 60-65 the tabs can be pulled all the way up.

Put those tabs down and drive that bit.

The best addition I made on my boat was to add tab indicators.

Give me a call or PM me your number; I'll PM you mine.

[blackhawk]

Drop the tabs more and trim the drive up farther. Having the drive tucked in that far will give you bow steer and HORRIBLE listing to the port side. Use the tabs to control the porpoising, not the drive. With my Pantera I always have the port tab down a little lower than the star.

As others have said a 3-blade will work better on the boat as well

[Carl C]

Drop the tabs more and trim the drive up farther. Having the drive tucked in that far will give you bow steer and HORRIBLE listing to the port side. Use the tabs to control the porpoising, not the drive. With my Pantera I always have the port tab down a little lower than the star.
As others have said a 3-blade will work better on the boat as well Yes yes yes! Use less negative trim. The four blade prop is probably causing the porpoising and you must drop the left tab only to control the listing. For top speed runs you can gradually raise the tab. You need seat time; I am still learning to drive mine. I marked my trim gauge to show where level is. I only use negative trim when planing then I run with slight positive trim. I drop the port tab for 5 seconds first (dual ram, no gauge) this gets me close to running level. Porpoising has never been an issue for me with the stock 3 blade mirage plus. A lot of members run the turbo 3 blades.

[yeller]

Quick responses! Too quick actually...I have to pull myself away and get to work before I get fired. :)
Poodle: Sorry but not gonna take ya up on your offer just yet. :biggrin: The 16 is a Donzi copy. Friends dad has the molds so I built it with the jet.

I figured I would have to change the prop. I already know from other posts that the Turbo or Hydro is the way to go. Is there any place that will allow for testing different props/sizes. Perhaps sell them then refund on return with maybe a restocking charge? Some are suggesting 3-blades. It seems to me that most higher HP boats run 4-blades. Am I wrong?

I thought tucking the drive in would reduce the porpoising because as soon as I trimmed it up even slightly, the bow would start reaching for the sky.

Guess I'll have to stop being the big sissy and just get back on the horse. I was trying not to use the tabs much. Next time I'll try the opposite. Use alot of tabs and reduce as I feel more comfortable.

Now stop posting!! No one post for 1hr. I have to get to work and I can't pull myself away :biggrin.: :biggrin.:

[blackhawk]

Is there any place that will allow for testing different props/sizes. Perhaps sell them then refund on return with maybe a restocking charge? Some are suggesting 3-blades. It seems to me that most higher HP boats run 4-blades. Am I wrong?

I thought tucking the drive in would reduce the porpoising because as soon as I trimmed it up even slightly, the bow would start reaching for the sky.

Guess I'll have to stop being the big sissy and just get back on the horse. I was trying not to use the tabs much. Next time I'll try the opposite. Use alot of tabs and reduce as I feel more comfortable.

Every prop has different characteristics. The Bravo 1 has a lot of stern lift. I would go with a prop that sticks the stern better. Mirage, Mirage +, Turbo 1 are all good 3 blades. I've heard many like the Hydromotive for a 4 blade on the classic. Check ebay for good deals on props. Throttle-up also has a demo program.

Tucking the drive will reduce porpoising but it also causes heavy listing and bow steer. You have the right idea now. Use more tab and play around with those as you get comfortable. You'll have it figured out in no time! :D

[ChromeGorilla]

Dump the Bravo 1 prop ASAP! Just take a look at Catch22's setup. He has a procharged 454 and run's a Hydromotive 4 blade. His boat is a friggin 90+ rocket that looks like it tracks pretty nicely as he blew my doors in....

IMO you should try like a 28 or 30 pitch Hydromotive QIV, depending on how much HP you got in there...... I think your out look on the boat will changed 100%.

[Cuda]

I'm pretty sure that Catch is running an IMCO shorty, so it might make a difference in props.

I know what you mean about a scarey first ride. When I first got my Mx14, the guy had told me to start trimming as I was coming out of the hole. Holy chit! That thing headed for the sky! I almost turned right around and put it back on the trailer. After just a little seat time, it turned out to be a very fun boat to run. I'm sure yours will too. :)

[Cuda]

Oh, and don't be taken in by Poodles 50% offer, I'm sure Buizilla will give you 75%. :)

[bob haver]

Dump the Bravo 1 prop ASAP! Just take a look at Catch22's setup. He has a procharged 454 and run's a Hydromotive 4 blade. His boat is a friggin 90+ rocket that looks like it tracks pretty nicely as he blew my doors in....
IMO you should try like a 28 or 30 pitch Hydromotive QIV, depending on how much HP you got in there...... I think your out look on the boat will changed 100%.
hey chrome i disagree and i dont want to confuse yeller but my results are very different.i am running a lab 26 bravo 1 with a stock 502 mpi at 5100rpms speed is a strong 75 mph with no chine walk no scary problems this is a4 blade the only real difference was listing to port at about 30 mph.just ask chris, tom, & kim at last years LG dust off.chris did an on board inspection he was surprised that a bravo 1 ran this good on a 22 c

[bob haver]

Bob, I'd love to see a picture of that prop.. And an accurate description of the work done to it.. I heard it was heavily labbed, blades reshaped and resized etc. So far it's the only Bravo that has worked worth a hoot on a 22 that I am aware of... And your right, the folks who saw it were impressed enough to mention it on the phone..
Of course, I do plan on a hands on inspection in June :) :)you got poddle i will get some pics and you will see it at LG sorry about the 2 post thing had a brain fart//////.

[ChromeGorilla]

Bob, I know your boat runs true. I have no doubts about that. I'm commenting on a stock Bravo 1 prop. When I tired one on my boat...holy chit! Never again. But yes with a little massaging a Bravo 1 could work, I agree. Or go with a hyrdo QIV and know it will be great from the get go....

Wish I could make it for June, but no dice..... possibly the fall picnic......

[yeller]

Hey everyone, thanks for the response. Lot's of good info here. Even though I said it was ok, nobody even dissed me :bonk:

Poodle, I was gonna sell ya the boat 1/2 price, but you didn't wait the required 1hr before posting. Sorry, no can do now. :rlol:

[John W]

I have a hydro quad IV X 24 or 25, Cannot remember, but will look today. Got rid of the nasty proposing , does pull to port when WOT. However the boat is down right stable and now a great joy to run, hardley need the tabs. Both Hydro and turbo offer a trade in program to get you dialed in. I am not pushing the same HP as a procharged boat, just a little old 496 ho.
Anyhow hope this helps. And for the record the stock prop on the 22classic is down right scary!!!
JW, Annapolis

[Lenny]

Glen, I think I told you to get rid of that prop before trying it, didn't I ;) ?

You will not have a SINGLE issue with that hull once you get used to it and dial it in. It won't be enough fun in no time. Don't worry about it. It will come and you will be flying all over the Strait in 3's and 4's. Sorry I missed you on SUNDAY but I was stuck on Saturna Island http://www.britishcolumbia.com/regions/towns/?townID=204 measuring a kitchen/baths/laundry etc and 9 hours between Ferries to get off.

Get rid of that prop, by a Hydromotive Quad OT or Mirage and we'll go out again. Sorry I missed you, don't be discouraged, it is only temporary :D

You will NEVER be sorry about this purchase once you dial it in. I am sure it scared the last person as well. You get to fix it :) and reap the rewards.

And, yes I know, bow steer and tucking the drive in, can be a GROSS thing. Been there, done that.

Call me.

[yeller]

Yea, too bad Lenny. I could of used an experienced hand. At least you weren't stuck out there in the rain. Beautiful day it was. The 22 is a much warmer boat to ride in (with the windshield and all) than the 16. It's definately going to extent my boating season by at least a month. The weather is suppose to turn soon, but if it stays sunny, I'll be out again this weekend.

[roadtrip se]

as everybody has said here already. Mirage plus, Precision TXP, and a couple of hydromotives in different sizes are typically in my support rig.

AND something others have not mentioned here. Forget the tabs are even there. I am running 27, 28, and 29 inch props with no prop steer or lean at all. Trim the boat and let her rip. If the boat leans at proper trim after some seat time, you need to start looking at how the weight distribution is set up.

Have fun out there!

[blackhawk]

as everybody has said here already. Mirage plus, Precision TXP, and a couple of hydromotives in different sizes are typically in my support rig.
AND something others have not mentioned here. Forget the tabs are even there. I am running 27, 28, and 29 inch props with no prop steer or lean at all. Trim the boat and let her rip. If the boat leans at proper trim after some seat time, you need to start looking at how the weight distribution is set up.
Have fun out there!

RT, never use your tabs at all? Not even when you're cruising in the mid-range or climbing to top-speed? :confused:

[Dr. Dan]

Ding ding :) :)

:bonk: In 2004 @ 1000 Islands, I had the Luxury of learning how to Drive my new powered boat with a Veteran Boater as my passenger.... His first peice of advice was to learn to drive the boat without using the Tabs as a Crutch.

Since that Trip... I keep them basically Flat Parallel or Nuetral and I don't touch them anymore. I use the Drive Trim and 99% of the time ... my Boat Rides very flat, and it doesn't porpose.:banghead:

Not long after that Trip I also learned that my Shift Cable was defective and it was affecting the Engines Perfromance...but I realized no matter how much I think I know,you're never too experienced to learn from others!

I am still learning....now if I could just get my Cat (Teague) to Wax the Boat...I'd be set!:wavey:

Doc of Never Too Old To Learn From an Older Dog :wavey:

[Pismo]

:bonk: In 2004 @ 1000 Islands, I had the Luxury of learning how to Drive my new powered boat with a Veteran Boater as my passenger.... His first peice of advice was to learn to drive the boat without using the Tabs as a Crutch.
Since that Trip... I keep them basically Flat Parallel or Nuetral and I don't touch them anymore. I use the Drive Trim and 99% of the time ... my Boat Rides very flat, and it doesn't porpose.:banghead:
Not long after that Trip I also learned that my Shift Cable was defective and it was affecting the Engines Perfromance...but I realized no matter how much I think I know,you're never too experienced to learn from others!
I am still learning....now if I could just get my Cat (Teague) to Wax the Boat...I'd be set!:wavey:
Doc of Never Too Old To Learn From an Older Dog :wavey:


I agree, I hardly ever use the tabs in my 22, only at low speed with an uneven load. Never above 40mph, never by myself. I find I just don't need them. Trim does all I need. Above 35-40mph it levels out and stops porpoising on its own without tabs. Big trim at top end, almost up to the limit. I run a 25" MPlus non-labbed or a labbed 27" Mplus. I am still trying props. Seems to porpoise more with full gas. Needs hydraulic steering as well.

[yeller]

I'm hoping to go again soon. I'll start with a neutral drive angle and go from there. I don't see how I'll be able to drive it without tabs though, at least not with the current prop.

Poodle, did ya get my PM?

Ooppps...I see you did.

[RickSE]

There has to be something different about these boats, bottom contour, prop characteristics, weight distribution, "X"-dim, leg length. I'm sure if you really wanted to you could drive through the porpoise and lean in my boat but it will be very uncomfortable and there is no way in hell you could do it with my usual passengers; kids 5 & 9 years, they'd get tossed around too much. I use my tabs so my passengers feel comfortable. Plus there is nothing I hate more then seeing a boat running through the water bouncing up and down. Again my boat will not lean or porpoise between approx. 65 & WOT. Anything below 60 without the tabs at least past neutral and you feel like you’re on one of those 50 cent kiddie rides in front of the grocery store.

As I've mentioned before, I do feel my boat is a little different then most, raised "X" and raised "CG" with a standard length leg, 300 lbs heavier then most with most of this weight in the back of the boat. I'm also still running the factory labbed 25 Mirage+ and have never tried another prop. Drive trim does not knock down the porpoise in this boat like it did in my old 18. I hardly ever used the tabs in the 18 since the drive trim was so effective.

Doc, your boat is lighter then mine and running a King Cobra which I would assume keeps the boat settled in the water better then the B-1. Your “X” is also stock.

Roadtrip, your boat is lighter then mine, has a stock CG and your leg or lever arm is 2" shorter then mine. Sounds like you also have way more prop experimentation time then most.

Sorry, not trying to start any crap :umbrella: and these are just my opinions. Anyone who wants to is welcome to come to Powell in June and drive my boat from 0 to a 55-MPH cruise without tabs.

Would there be a bottom contour that would cause porpoise, rocker or hook? What about the reverse chine on the newer 22’s? Also does too much or not enough bow lift in a prop cause porpoise? Seems as though the prop tries to lift the bow but can't hold it up so the bow drops then the cycle just repeats over and over.

The one thing I distinctly remember when riding in SE #1 in FL was the factory Donzi drivers, one being TED, telling us that they had to put the port side tab down to accelerate the boat then pull it up at speed.

[gold-n-rod]

There has to be something different about these boats, bottom contour, prop characteristics, weight distribution, "X"-dim, leg length. I'm sure if you really wanted to you could drive through the porpoise and lean in my boat but it will be very uncomfortable and there is no way in hell you could do it with my usual passengers; kids 5 & 9 years, they'd get tossed around too much. I use my tabs so my passengers feel comfortable. Plus there is nothing I hate more then seeing a boat running through the water bouncing up and down. Again my boat will not lean or porpoise between approx. 65 & WOT. Anything below 60 without the tabs at least past neutral and you feel like you’re on one of those 50 cent kiddie rides in front of the grocery store.
As I've mentioned before, I do feel my boat is a little different then most, raised "X" and raised "CG" with a standard length leg, 300 lbs heavier then most with most of this weight in the back of the boat. I'm also still running the factory labbed 25 Mirage+ and have never tried another prop. Drive trim does not knock down the porpoise in this boat like it did in my old 18. I hardly ever used the tabs in the 18 since the drive trim was so effective.
Doc, your boat is lighter then mine and running a King Cobra which I would assume keeps the boat settled in the water better then the B-1. Your “X” is also stock.
Roadtrip, your boat is lighter then mine, has a stock CG and your leg or lever arm is 2" shorter then mine. Sounds like you also have way more prop experimentation time then most.
Sorry, not trying to start any crap :umbrella: and these are just my opinions. Anyone who wants to is welcome to come to Powell in June and drive my boat from 0 to a 55-MPH cruise without tabs.
Would there be a bottom contour that would cause porpoise, rocker or hook? What about the reverse chine on the newer 22’s? Also does too much or not enough bow lift in a prop cause porpoise? Seems as though the prop tries to lift the bow but can't hold it up so the bow drops then the cycle just repeats over and over.
The one thing I distinctly remember when riding in SE #1 in FL was the factory Donzi drivers, one being TED, telling us that they had to put the port side tab down to accelerate the boat then pull it up at speed.

I'm kinda with Rick here. It's not realistic to expect a new owner to "drive through" porpoising. When I was learning my 16, I wasn't ready for that. After a lot of seat time, I find I use the tabs less and less, but that's AFTER learning how to drive the boat.

A newbie shouldn't be discouraged from using tabs or be made to feel like less of a man for using them.

:wavey:

[blackhawk]

I guess everyone has their own driving style. But, like gold-n-rod said using the tabs until you feel comfortable is a good idea IMO.

Plus, it would seem that putting your tabs in the "nuetral" position and just leaving them would scrub top speed. :confused:

[RickSE]

Poodle, actually a 23 QIV might be about right. I can only obtain 5,000 RPM @ my elevation with the 25P Mirage. I'll talk to you later on this; don't want to sidetrack Yeller's thread anymore.

If Yeller can get his boat up and running, flat and with a light nose he'll be good to go and I'll be stuck in his wake at Powell. :redface:

[roadtrip se]

in the Somerville edition.

I call porpising in the mid-range a "baja-disease". Some sloppy and unattentive captain running down the lake oblivious to the world and the comfort of their passengers.

My boat doesn't bob her nose, except for a few seconds, and then Captain Ron gets really annoyed and corrects for it, trust me. Those who know me, know I don't run a sloppy beast on the water.

I will say that I think every one of these things runs differently under different conditions, loading, and prop selection. Part of the fun, for me at least, is dialing it in and trying different things.

MP is right, I can torque the RTSE over very easily to one side. A p-5? Better know what you are doing, but I am still looking for one at the right price!

Now get out there! Dang it, I'm way over due!

[slapshot11]

I don't have as much experience at driving the 22' Classic as the vast majority of 22' owners on this forum. I agree that seat time is key. I spent half of my first season with the trim all the way in plowing around the lake wondering what was wrong. However, that being said, I can state without any hesitation that by switching from the 25P Mirage Plus which came on the boat to a 25P Turbo 1 prop, the handling characteristics of my 22' completely changed immediately. I mean immediately. No more purposing, great acceleration, higher RPM's, very little trim usage and higher top end speed. Got a great deal on it from MP and it's one of the best investments I've made in the boat so far. I'd say cut yourself a break and try a Turbo 1 prop as a first step. Now I can trim the boat at at WOT and actually feel it "unstick" from the water. That's when we fly.

[catch 22]

Yeller, Congrats on the 22. Hope you got my PM. Here are a couple of pics of my Pride and Joy. The one pic still has the Mirage Plus but everything else is the same.

[blackhawk]

Yeller, Congrats on the 22. Hope you got my PM. Here are a couple of pics of my Pride and Joy. The one pic still has the Mirage Plus but everything else is the same.

Catch, not to hi-jack yeller's thread but did you do any internal mods to your motor? Are you running 5lbs of boost?

Thanks

[yeller]

Catch, not to hi-jack yeller's thread but did you do any internal mods to your motor? Are you running 5lbs of boost?
Thanks
That's ok, I wanted to ask the same question.
Hey Catch, didn't get any PM or email:confused:

Hey Gold-n-rod. I already feel like less of a man just by taking the boat out. :biggrin: I had alot of fun, but it scared the crap out of me a couple times. :puke:
I'd been reading posts about the 22's handling traits long, long before I bought the boat. In the back of my head, I was thinkin, I'll surprise these guys, I'll showem the size of my gonads and get it into the low 70's first time out. Doohhh...Man was I humbled...and quick:jestera: :bonk:

Lots an lots of helpful info here...keep it coming. This humble soul (with the small gonads) bows at the feet of all you +70mph pilots. Hope to be standing amoungst you all soon.:crossfing

[ChromeGorilla]

Yeller, with that power and the correct prop it's most of us that will be lucky to keep up with you. Is the boat finnicky, yes. Take a little time to learn, yes. But honestly I don't think you should have an uneasy feelin at 70. It's 100% due to the Bravo one IMHO. Take the prop off right now, list it on ebay and buy a new prop. Don't even put the boat in the water again with that prop. I'd bet that if you slap a Hydro QIV on it you'll have the stability and added comfort to pilot this boat at a level that is pretty impressive.

Good luck!

[Lenny]

Glen, as said, get rid of that prop. Go to M&P and see what they can "loan" you in New Westminster. Be prepared to buy it "but" with a return policy if you don't muck it up.

Phone me, I'll meet you in Active Pass/Galiano Island/Mayne Island area, (I am sure I'll hear you) and we can go to Finlayson Arm where you have 700' deep water, 1100' vertical cliffs on both sides, about 1-2 miles wide, and about 7 miles straight of 100% flat calm, protected water to run and play in, regardless of the rest of the area weather, and run it till you get the hang of it.

Guaranteed.

No worries and a gas dock to boot and GREAT cell coverage. Only the odd whale to worry about :) , no rocks, period other than the Fjord sides.

You will have NO problems in no time and get more comforatble with the power and ride. Lift the nose, air the hull, and fly... :D

Get rid of that prop. We are beating a dead horse here ;)

[RickSE]

Catch & Yeller, what are you guys doing for insurance? I know full well that if I go over 500HP my insurance co, ANPAC, will drop me. I've considered a blower but really don't want to pay for excessive insurance. Most companies, BoatUS, USAA, Progressive, ANPAC, etc. stop coverage at 70-75 MPH.

[Pismo]

Catch, Any problems mounting your steering rams so far above the centerline? I am going to have to do the same and was concerned. Thanks.

[Dr. Dan]

Catch & Yeller, what are you guys doing for insurance? I know full well that if I go over 500HP my insurance co, ANPAC, will drop me. I've considered a blower but really don't want to pay for excessive insurance. Most companies, BoatUS, USAA, Progressive, ANPAC, etc. stop coverage at 70-75 MPH.


:spongebob Ricker, I have an "Agreed Value Policy" with Progressive through Worldwide Marine Ins. out of East Lansing, Michigan. They insured my repower and they know everything about my Boat...Horsepower, New Trailer...etc...if it goes...it's covered.

My insurance incresed 2.5 times from what it was....which sucks...but I still get a grin everytime I open it up on the Chesapeake Bay!:beer:

The More Stable of the Evil Twins :spongebob

[RedDog]

Catch & Yeller, what are you guys doing for insurance? I know full well that if I go over 500HP my insurance co, ANPAC, will drop me. I've considered a blower but really don't want to pay for excessive insurance. Most companies, BoatUS, USAA, Progressive, ANPAC, etc. stop coverage at 70-75 MPH.
Rick - no matter how much HP you are running, your rev-limiter will keep you under 75 if you are running a 25 or smaller prop;)

[RickSE]

Pismo, my single ram is mounted in the same location as Catch22's, just outside the K-plane at roughly the same height. No problems here.

Doc. And your horsepower is......................? Don't you have some mods inside the motor? Progressive and ANPAC both gave me quotes for what I have, 470HP, 22', but they were the only two that would quote it. I did not hand over speed numbers and let them tell me how fast the boat was with the weight, 3,700-3,800 lbs. I've found that their speed numbers are typically conservative. I'm at their limits now, any more power and I'm sure they will not cover. I'm just afraid that if I up the power with something as obvious as a blower that I'll have to fess up and will be looking at $1,000/year for coverage. Guess I'll just have to open up the motor and do some mods inside. :yes: BTW a motor from my motor guy's shop was on PINKS last night, opened up a can of whoop ass on that so called 10.50 minivan.

RedDog, I can also tell them I only run with my tabs down and can't get over 70.:rlol:

WOW,as an update I just called USAA and got a quote through Progressive of $388/year, Agreed Value of $50K w/$500K liability. What happened? 2-years ago Progressive was $100/year more than ANPAC, now they're $100/year less then my current policy with ANPAC which is Actual Cash Value and $300K liability. I'm switching insurance.

[Carl C]

I tried a couple things I learned from this thread today and hit 75.2 mph!!!(gps). Not a freak reading either I was hitting 75 consistantly. I did it by keeping the tabs up and using more positive trim. It was pretty hairy at times but I found the elusive 75!!!:yippie: That's 100% stock folks; this ol' yeller can fly too!:hyper: :hyper:BTW I gave the fishermen lots of room.

[gcarter]

I'm just afraid that if I up the power with something as obvious as a blower that I'll have to fess up and will be looking at $1,000/year for coverage. Guess I'll just have to open up the motor and do some mods inside. :yes:
Rick, don't you have some altitude issues where you live?
It would seem to me a blower with very modest boost would only compensate for lack of atmospheric pressure due to altitude.
At least I think it makes a good argument.:biggrin.:

[blackhawk]

I tried a couple things I learned from this thread today and hit 75.2 mph!!!(gps). Not a freak reading either I was hitting 75 consistantly. I did it by keeping the tabs up and using more positive trim. It was pretty hairy at times but I found the elusive 75!!!:yippie: That's 100% stock folks; this ol' yeller can fly too!:hyper: :hyper:

Carl, very nice! Like I said in my other post, I can't see how just putting your tabs at "neutral" and calling it good enough is the way to do it. If you want that last couple mph you need to hang it out on the edge. Tabs up, trim out! :D And your trim/tab setup will vary as water conditions vary.

[blackhawk]

I tried a couple things I learned from this thread today and hit 75.2 mph!!!(gps). Not a freak reading either I was hitting 75 consistantly. I did it by keeping the tabs up and using more positive trim. It was pretty hairy at times but I found the elusive 75!!!:yippie: That's 100% stock folks; this ol' yeller can fly too!:hyper: :hyper:

Carl, were you running the Turbo 1 24 to get those speeds? That's really impressive if it was!

[ChromeGorilla]

Rick - no matter how much HP you are running, your rev-limiter will keep you under 75 if you are running a 25 or smaller prop;)


Not necessarily...... Also my rev limiter is definately higher than the manual says it is..... I have bumped it more than once. And my GPS speed was well above 75MPH.

[ChromeGorilla]

Oh, and Carl...... WTG my HO bro!:beer:

[Carl C]

Carl, were you running the Turbo 1 24 to get those speeds? That's really impressive if it was! No, the stock 25 Mirage plus. Since I'm hitting 4,900 rpm I think the Turbo 24 will put me on the limiter. I never tried the turbo although I did test fit it. I haven't had any complaints with the Mirage. Thanks, Chrome.

[catch 22]

Pismo, I have had no trouble with the way the steering is setup. I lost some steering radius but I don't know if that is the way it is or because of where the rams were mounted.

[yeller]

Nice going Carl. My geography sucks...are you at sea level?

Ordering a Hydro tomorrow :yes:

[Pismo]

I tried a couple things I learned from this thread today and hit 75.2 mph!!!(gps). Not a freak reading either I was hitting 75 consistantly. I did it by keeping the tabs up and using more positive trim. It was pretty hairy at times but I found the elusive 75!!!:yippie: That's 100% stock folks; this ol' yeller can fly too!:hyper: :hyper:BTW I gave the fishermen lots of room.

Yes, the 22 seems to level out nicely above 40mph so no tabs needed for speed runs and lots of trim, more than expected. Do you have mufflers in your tailpipes? Nice speed. Gets a little crazy, thats the Mplus 25", the MPlus 27" is even worse, the rounded bottom which gets it swaying some, and lack of hydraulic steering. Hydraulic steering would probably stabilize things nicely. A labbed prop would get you to 76.+ probably. What rpm did you hit? Near the limiter? 5250 I think on the HO.

[Carl C]

Do you have mufflers in your tailpipes? What rpm did you hit? Yes, I haven't replaced the exhaust tips yet but plan to do so next week. The stock tach said 4,900 @ 75.2. yeller, yes, I am close to sea level. You will love your boat with the right prop and with that pro-charger it should accelerate like a rocket!:yes:

[yeller]

where are you planning on getting that hydromotive from?

Well I may be getting a bit ahead of myself. I'm HOPING to order one today. Depends on if I can get the free time to do a search and see if I can find someone on the west coast. If not I'll phone Throttle-Up (they've been suggested by a few).

[RedDog]

Yes, I haven't replaced the exhaust tips yet but plan to do so next week. The stock tach said 4,900 @ 75.2. yeller, yes, I am close to sea level. You will love your boat with the right prop and with that pro-charger it should accelerate like a rocket!:yes:

With your 25" prop that calculates to a 2.7% slip factor...

That's really hooking-up

[ChromeGorilla]

Like I said..... different motor will have some variation in actual numbers as will the tachs have variations..... I know my tach reads 5250 when the rev limiter kicks in.....

[ChromeGorilla]

OK
Carls #'s are very reasonable. If he is off by only 100 RPM when reading his tach and he's actually turning 5000 that changes his slip to 5%. Which is definately a more feasible #.
I have essentialy same setup. Running 1.5 ratio, turning a 25P mirage+ at 5250 I am @ 77.9 MPH GPS, which is 6% slip. I would guess Carl might be a hair off with the actual RPM's whether his misreading or inaccurate displayed reading.
Anyhoo..... welcome to the 75 MPH club......:biggrin.: Carl, we need some CMI's and a shorty brother!!!!! I smell 80..... :yes: :D
Here is the shot of the best I have seen with Damn Yankee. Done it a few time in cooler weather.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11043&d=1114382044

[Dr. Dan]

OK
Carls #'s are very reasonable. If he is off by only 100 RPM when reading his tach and he's actually turning 5000 that changes his slip to 5%. Which is definately a more feasible #.
I have essentialy same setup. Running 1.5 ratio, turning a 25P mirage+ at 5250 I am @ 77.9 MPH GPS, which is 6% slip. I would guess Carl might be a hair off with the actual RPM's whether his misreading or inaccurate displayed reading.
Anyhoo..... welcome to the 75 MPH club......:biggrin.: Carl, we need some CMI's and a shorty brother!!!!! I smell 80..... :yes: :D
Here is the shot of the best I have seen with Damn Yankee. Done it a few time in cooler weather.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11043&d=1114382044

:spongebob Yes Oh Great Frosted Haired Boy...we have seen that shot a number of times...when ya gonna spring for a GPS SPeedo...hand helds are soooooo passe' these days ..... Darling! :beer:

Doc of Boat Fashion

[Dr. Dan]

who needs a speedo when you ahve a handheld :rolleyes: :biggrin.: :tongue:

If you can hang onto a Hand Held you're going too slow!!!!!!!!!:spongebob

So there "Root of all Evil" !

Anonymous :umbrella:

[Dr. Dan]

it's called a handlebar mount... look doc.. no hands :cistineb: :yes: :p

Oh I See Grasshopper...very clever... I go now....

Confused Med Whack Job

[Dr. Dan]

[QUOTE=MadPoodle]Back when my moustache was longer I had a different definition of "handlebar mount"....
Anonymous[/QUOTE

:spongebob And to complete the 180 Degree turn of this Thread..."We Called that Game ...Carnival" where they used that handlebar and you guessed their weight?

Oh Kay...no lets get back to some really serious performance issues...and discuss how Tabs are not A-Political and are not Nuetral.

And the Pacific Rim...and Benzyne...

Next....:beer:

[Cuda]

Back to the tab question. I never use them at all, of course, that might be because I don't have any. :)

I've heard that because mine is a TRS boat, the cg is farther forward eliminating a lot of porpoising.

[ChromeGorilla]

Back when my moustache was longer I had a different definition of "handlebar mount"....
Anonymous


LMFAO! I really am laughing right now..... :rlol:

[blackhawk]

I just throw my GPS on the floor and find it after a good run. But sometimes it flies out and I have to go find it! :D

As far as the top-speed/rpm/prop slip. I try not to use strictly top speed off the GPS. I've been running a consistant number, say 65-66 and I similar top-speed I use it. But, I have been running my blackhawk and seeing 76-77 consistantly and at the end of the run seen 80-81 as the top-speed a couple times. :confused:

I always take my brother out testing now cause he eyeballs the GPS constantly.

Also, most factory tachs seem to be off.

[Pismo]

I think the 25" MPlus numbers out to about 25.5" or 26" true pitch with all that cup so that will up your slip #s to a little more reasonable level. Tachs......what can be said....

[Carl C]

I hold my GPS on the seat between my legs. Can you connect a service tach to the 496?

[ChromeGorilla]

Blackhawk... LOL I see I'm not the only one who does it that way..... I usually just toss it in the passenger seat when I hit the water..... by the end of the run it's on the ground somewhere.....:garfield:

[Carl C]

I have essentialy same setup. Running 1.5 ratio, turning a 25P mirage+ at 5250 I am @ 77.9 MPH GPS,
Anyhoo..... welcome to the 75 MPH club......:biggrin.: Carl, we need some CMI's and a shorty brother!!!!! I smell 80..... :yes: :D
Wow, 77.9; the bar has been raised! I'll get those exhaust tips on and see what I can do next week while the air is still cool and thick. A gps sliding around on the floor might give a false high reading. Holding mine between my legs I can keep it steady and watch it climb; not just go by the high # at the end of a run. Hmmmmm.......The ins. co. asked about engine mods but never mentioned the drive. An Imco shorty huh???? Anyway, how can I hook up a standard service tach? Can I clip the leads to the terms on the back of the dash tach? This being an 8 coil ign. system I am not sure.

[olredalert]

--------Velcro on the dash, velcro on the back of the hand-held and wha-la instant dash GPS!!!!.........Bill S

[Pismo]

I would have to see a reading twice or more to really count it. I got a 77.1mph GPS once but did not believe it or include it in my "official" top speed mental record. If it is really hitting that speed it should be easy to duplicate it over and over as long as you do it in a short space of time on the same conditions and direction. Not a Reggie type opposite direction or anything, just two or more runs at the same time at the same place with numbers within a .1 or .2mph. I got my 75.5mph GPS many time that days but saw the 77.1mph GPS only once so I could not really buy it. It was probably a GPS abberation or I skipped off the top of a wave or something else non-repeatable.

[MOP]

Can you connect a service tach to the 496?

What should work is the grey wire at the tach, you could peel a little bit of insulation back and hook in. The tach reads pulse so they have to come through the grey.

Phil

[ChromeGorilla]

Just FYI..... in the cooler months I can peg the limiter hard, no problem. When I do the speed is either 77.7-77.9 Seen it more than a few times....

[Pismo]

I love these Donzis, 77+mph in a stock boat with warranty. Got to love it...

[Carl C]

yeller, this is still about you. Keep us posted on your progress. Do you have the 3.5 or 5 psi pro-charger?:checkered

[OKII]

yeller, this is still about you. Keep us posted on your progress. Do you have the 3.5 or 5 psi pro-charger?:checkered

I know this is about Yeller, awesome thread....But did someone say Shorty?
Mine will be at my doorstep this week for my 22!!!!!:hyper: :hyper: :hyper:

[Carl C]

I know this is about Yeller, awesome thread....But did someone say Shorty?
Mine will be at my doorstep this week for my 22!!!!!:hyper: :hyper: :hyper: I'd be interested in how this works out. When will you have it in the water?

[OKII]

Hopefully a couple weeks at most. I dipped the boat in last week, for a warm up, I wanted to test top end again, but the weather was not cooperating, very windy. So before I swap the lower unit, I would like a firm idea on specs. I will be keeping the original prop, Mirage 25 plus, the boat is stock w/ a 496 HO. Eventually I will test some props, as the dealer I bought the Imco from will demo to me, and he is on the way to the 1000 Islands from my house!! Should be interesting!! Let me know if anyone else has started with just this upgrade, if not, it looks like I'm the lab rat!!:wavey:

[OKII]

I switched my avatar, the picture sucks. Gonna change it!

[OKII]

There, thats better, I've always loved this picture!!

[ChromeGorilla]

OKII... I bet a 26P Hydro QIV would be a PERFECT match to your setup when you put the shorty on. I don't know how well the Mirage + will do with that shorty.... probably not to well.

[OKII]

I'm figuring you to be exactly right on the mirage. I just want to seel true lower unit difference at first, then I plan on dialing in on the prop, w/out lookaing @ your previous posts, have you had experinece w/ a 26 Hydro QIV on a classic. Let me know why you thing that would work best for me Chrome, and thanks in advance!-Burnsie

[yeller]

yeller, this is still about you. Keep us posted on your progress. Do you have the 3.5 or 5 psi pro-charger?:checkered
I never care if my threads get sidetracked, I enjoy reading all comments.
Based on info here and from Catch22 (he's running similar hp) I'll be ordering a 29P QIV on Monday. Called a couple places Saturday but everyone was closed. Won't be doing any exchange program because there is no way I have the experience to run the boat to max rpm, so testing different props right now is out of the question. I think the 29P will fairly close to start with. Hopefully next winter I'll be forging the internals of the motor and changing boost levels so I'll experiment with props next year. Don't know if I'm running 3.5 or 5lbs. The difference is only the pulley size (I believe) and I don't know what the sizes are.

[Carl C]

Don't know if I'm running 3.5 or 5lbs. The difference is only the pulley size (I believe) and I don't know what the sizes are. You need a boost gauge. Not sure but I think there's more to it than pulley size. You are making either 580 or 625 hp.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[yeller]

You need a boost gauge. Not sure but I think there's more to it than pulley size. You are making either 580 or 625 hp.:eek: :eek: :eek:
Have a boost gauge. Centrifugal SC's build boost based on rpm and because I don't have the experience yet to run in the upper rpms, I'll never see max boost. Still believe boost levels are based on pulley size. More boost may require larger injectors and such, but the boost levels are determined by the rpms of the SC (and SC size of course). Example: during my 1st (and only run) so far, I wasn't able to get over 3500 rpm (approx 60mph). At that rpm, the SC wasn't even producing any boost. It was still accelerating pretty hard...I can only imagine what it'll be like once I can get the SC working :eek:

[LKSD]

Have a boost gauge. Centrifugal SC's build boost based on rpm and because I don't have the experience yet to run in the upper rpms, I'll never see max boost. Still believe boost levels are based on pulley size. More boost may require larger injectors and such, but the boost levels are determined by the rpms of the SC (and SC size of course). Example: during my 1st (and only run) so far, I wasn't able to get over 3500 rpm (approx 60mph). At that rpm, the SC wasn't even producing any boost. It was still accelerating pretty hard...I can only imagine what it'll be like once I can get the SC working :eek:

Boost on the prochargers is determined by pulley size & rpm. Yes if you are going to up the boost after a certain point you need to sometimes up the injectors.. If your 496 has not had any internal upgrades I would not go past about 3.5lbs of boost.. Jamie :)

[yeller]

JW, I figured you'd come to the rescue and clarify things. :smile: I didn't get any info on the Procharger when I got the boat. Do you know what the pulley sizes are? I'd like to confirm mine.

[LKSD]

JW, I figured you'd come to the rescue and clarify things. :smile: I didn't get any info on the Procharger when I got the boat. Do you know what the pulley sizes are? I'd like to confirm mine.

Yeller,
It would have been set up based on the altitude it was operating in. What you would need to do is measure the pulley on the supercharger with a micrometer or measure the circumfrence & then divide it by 3.14 to find out which pulley you have. They all usally leave the bottom (crank pulley) alone.
Jamie :)

[BUIZILLA]

If ya had one of them ther' wacky paddle's, it would be full boost at 1800, no lag, and better cruise speeds....

JH:wink: ;) :wavey:

[LKSD]

Buzilla,
I hope we are not getting into a pissing match again, based on a prior thread..:confused: :boggled: I was just answering his question.

Hopefully the post is just friendly banter & not a dig... We both I'm sure have better things to do.. Or at least I should hope we do.. :)

Jamie

[yeller]

If ya had one of them ther' wacky paddle's, it would be full boost at 1800, no lag, and better cruise speeds....
JH:wink: ;) :wavey:
Well, my life is full of 'If-I-had-...', but I'm stuck with what I got. :D Boat came with the Procharger otherwise I'd have nuttin'. I like both types, just glad I have one. :smile:

JW, what I was actually asking is...what is the 3.5lb and 5lb pulley size for the Procharger:confused: BTW: I'm sure Buizilla was just ribbin' me.

[LKSD]

I will check my info.. & I will figure you are running at sea level or close to it.. I will post ya later.. :) Jamie

[Carl C]

If ya had one of them ther' wacky paddle's, it would be full boost at 1800, no lag, and better cruise speeds....
JH:wink: ;) :wavey: What is a wacky paddle?

[gold-n-rod]

What is a wacky paddle?

Must have something to do with wacky terbacky???

But I never inhaled!!!

:wavey:

[LKSD]

At sea level the 5lb boost pulley is probably 3" and a 3.5lb boost pulley is probably around 3.20" ......

The wacky paddle does not exist I used this goofy analogy to try to describe what the inside of another type of forced induction unit looked like in laymans terms. It was in another thread that had some of the posts deleted because of a pissing match that broke out.. :)

Jamie :)

[yeller]

Thanks JW. I didn't realize there would be different size pulleys for different altitudes. The boat would have been set up for close to sea level, so those #'s will work. :)

[yeller]

Finally, finally, finally managed to get the second run in. Damn BC weather. The last couple weeks it's been beautiful all week, then it rains on the weekend. :splat:
Same thing may happen this weekend, so I started work early so I could get home in time to try out the new prop.
MUCH, MUCH BETTER!!! Some because of the prop, but A LOT because of the advice from here....THANKS!!!! :beer:
Before going out, I located (and marked on the gauge) neutral trim. Once on plane, I used nothing but + trim. The porpoise was still there, but I could get rid of it with the tabs. Now I admit, I ran with a lot of tab this time out. I had to, to feel comfortable. But I did it!!...I came very, very close to hitting the rev limiter!!! :hyper: 80mph on the speedo! :biggrin: That was with (probably) 3/4 full tabs. I just couldn't pull the tabs up without inducing chine walk. I know...I know...get used to it! I will...this is just a totally different feeling boat than my 16 jet. It's amazing, but the 22 feels way, way lighter than the 16. It really feels like it's 'skimming' on the surface, where as my 16 was definately 'in' the water. I think I'm going to like the 22 more. :shades: :biggrin:

Ssooo...what is your opinion on the prop. If a rookie like myself can hit 5100rpm with 3/4 tabs...is it too small...or am I jumping ahead of myself?
Catch22 figured a 29P would be a good starting point. He has similar HP and has already tried the 29. However, I called Hydromotive directly and spoke with the tech for over 1/2hr. He was really, really hesitant to sell me a 29. I explained that other guys have already tested the prop on the same setup, but he still wouldn't waver. Definately wanted me to use a 27P. Said it would probably work much better. Although he also said I should reprogram and up the rev limiter to 5500~5600 to get the most out of the prop. Suggestions?? I still have 3 weeks to exchange.

THANKS to everyone!!
Glen

[Ed Donnelly]

Yeller; Try calling Julie at Throttle Up
Seems like the 27 will get you out of the hole faster and better acceleration
but higher rpms for same top end,and lower cruising speed......Ed

[catch 22]

Yeller; Try calling Julie at Throttle Up
Seems like the 27 will get you out of the hole faster and better acceleration
but higher rpms for same top end,and lower cruising speed......Ed
Yeller, Definitely talk to Julie. You might run out of prop with a 27p, not sure but you might not want to run that motor at 5500 or 5600.

[Lenny]

Glen,... SEE :) , I told you you would like it :D

Now, pull up those tabs, and get the next bit of "lunge" out of her. :D

Take your time tho. No need killing yourself to prove yourself. It will be all good after a half dozen more runs. Thought of you the other night when I was out in the boat. Went on a little late night, life jacket/kill switch, bone-chilling 50 mile run myself. :) See ya soon out on the water.

Glen, I am thinking of going out on Saturday afternoon, May 13th. It is supposed to be HOT and sunny for the foreseeable future.

You in? my cell is 250-727-1287.

Lenny

I was thinking of Galiano Island, Montegue Harbour on Saturday afternoon. That is about 20 minutes from the McDonald Beach ramp in Vancouver at 40-ish.

[yeller]

You know, I was very hesitant to buy the 27, but the guy was sooo persistant. I originally was going to call Throttle_Up , but then I figured who's going to know the prop the best, a dealer or the manufacturer. I can't buy from Throttle-Up now because I've already purchased from Hydromotive. I don't feel right using them for info and then not buying. Should I still call Julie???

Catch, your probably right. The stock motor is already on the edge with the SC, bumping up the rpm may prove destructive.

Lenny, no can do Sat. Don't have enough free time that day. Hoping to go out Sun. Still not confident enough to cross the strait so a meeting will have to wait. The boat's still a bit squirrely over the waves for my liking. Need more practice. The Hydro did nothing for the porpoising. One of the reasons I was running so much tab.

[BigGrizzly]

Yeller, I to have a procharger on a carb model 502. I do not have a shoti for two reasons the deep drive works better in rough water. the second it is easier to put mor HP in the boat than the shortie and cheeprt for me. I have tried all the props mentioned ans I hate the Bravo and the M plus. At this time I rum a 29 three blade TXP 29 prop at about 5200+ Rpms witha drive ratio of 1:5x1. My boost is 4.3 to 4.7 psi at full throttle. The Criterion is about 300lbs heiver than a 22 classic. My boat runs dead flat at full bore and is a joy to drive now that I am use to it until aboyt 83 mph then it takes total concentration. If you do not trim it high it will list and torque to one side. I would do as the other guys said and ditch the bravo and the M plus. Don't let any one scare you with the blowers hurt the engines. If it is set up correctly bno problem will happen that is related to the procharger. I have over 500 hours on mine. There is no secret here That I have about 680+ HP. One thing I will say and that is I don't lab props!!!! IF it isn't good enough out of the box I won't pay Mercury or Throttle up to make a new prop better. Especially when I can call Turbo and buy a prop that puts me in the high 80's. Ask Lenny, 5 people and a full tank of gas at 84 MPH at Cumberland. In my not so humble opinion this an't bad. In closing Don't quit untill all props have been tried.

[yeller]

Griz...because of my very limited experience with the 22C (or any I/O for that matter), I don't know if I really have the ability to determine which prop is best. I'm just hoping to get close. This will be a learning year for me. I can experiment more next year. I am slightly concerned the 27 is too small though...simply based on the fact that I was able get to 5100rpm so quickly. Then again, you're running a 29 with more power than me. I have the 3.5psi system.

BTW: the only person scaring me about SC's is myself. Your 502 is fully forged, the 496 is not. The main big scare for me is valves. I've seen the stock valves on a couple (roots blown) 454's snap. I don't know if the 496 valves are stronger :confused:

[blackhawk]

Yeller I agree wih you I would have wanted the 29. The 3.5 kit puts you at what - 550hp? I'd rather spin the 29 2-300 rpm lower(than the 27) myself and I think you have the power to do it!

[Lenny]

Glen, seeeee, ... :D ,... now you have had the boat, what ? ... 4 weeks??? maybe...

And you are consumed by all the intricacies of every ounce of energy that that motor and drive can produce.


Fun, isn't it :D

Yes, Grizz's boat runs like that, and I can say, $hit comes at you fast at 80 plus and small waves look like ripples till you hit 'em.

Sunday is a no go for me I think. If I can put some "un-built as of yet" cabinets in on Saturday, then I will join you on Sunday on YOUR tuirf. I will cross the Strait to meet you. (first get gas in Steveston, THEN, meet you :) )

WATCH FOR LOGS IN THE RIVER prior to getting the safe zone of the Strait.

Cheers. Lenny :)

[yeller]

Yes, I have learnt yet another lesson. The masses had said use Throttle-Up, but I choose otherwise. I knew I was paying more, but figured they would be the most knowledgable, so it did not matter. I'll try and get out a few more times before making a final decision, but in all likelyhood I'll be sending it back and getting what I originally requested.

[BigGrizzly]

yeller, I am familiar with the 496 with blowers. the motor was designed to push heavy big sport boats around so the valves are strong and light. the ports are small compaired to the 502 but the motor is stout and fairly trouble free. At 3.5psi of boost yoy are in the mid to high 500 hp range. untill you get to 600 there is no big issue unless you beat the snot out of it. I went small HP on mine for durability. with the other pulley we are up to the mid to high 700 mark. we all desided that 80->90 was enough so we backed it down. Today I still am not sorry for that desision. ROOtsy don't feel bad they do that to me. they need a attitude ajustment. When people call they tell you they tested it on their boat and it is usually one just likr yours (uhuh, sure) BTW the Quad 4 and the P5 are dead copies of the old but good Mach Patriot, and the P5x is a dead copy of the Bravo with an extra blade attached. So much for humble.

[yeller]

Well that eases my mind a bit Griz. The valves were a major concern for me.

Lenny, still not positive I'm going tomorrow, but if you do find the time then I'm sure I can too. Let me know. BTW: I know about river logs all too well!:rolleyes: