View Full Version : Reading plugs
These are the plugs, in order, from the engine I pulled out of the Minx. Number one looks particularly bad. Any ideas as to what I will find?
DonziJon
04-15-2006, 11:03 AM
Maybe the beginning of bad exhaust elbows?? They rust out inside after awhile allowing water into the cylinders. This happened to me a few years ago. The exhaust manifolds were fine..and still are. I just replaced the elbows. John
BUIZILLA
04-15-2006, 11:37 AM
Cuda, take a pic straight down so I can see your numbering system, i'm concerned about the third and fourth from the left...
Well, as I had originally suspected, I'd say this intake manifold gasket was leaking in the center.:mad:
How's this for some fine workmanship?:mad:
I will usually put a dab of Number 2 Permatex in the corners of these gaskets, but this guy didn't bother with a gasket at all, just gooped it on.:mad:
Cuda, take a pic straight down so I can see your numbering system, i'm concerned about the third and fourth from the left...
They are laying there 1 thru 8, starting at the left.
I don't know if it makes any difference, but my daddy always taught me to put the pushrods back in the same places. I do it with the rockers too.
Joe get the heads off, no sense not got to see the bores! #8 plug looks on the light side a few other don't look to great. Way back when the "Mohanic" did it over I suspected a riser problem, I would pressure check them to play safe bring them up to about 40psi and let them sit for 15-20 minutes see if they hold.
Phil
Phil, I had the Boat Hospital pressure check the risers, and the exhaust manifolds, before I had them pull the engine. They are like new, and I really didn't suspect them.
OK the exhaust ruled out, how does the oil in the pan look.
OK the exhaust ruled out, how does the oil in the pan look.
Like it has "some" water in it. Not totally emulsified.
I gotta pull the heads anyway, the mechanic said I had low compression on two cylinders. I always suspect valve trouble with low compression, but with ony ten hours or so on the engine, I find it hard to believe.
With a littel luck the bores will be OK, lets hope for a few rusty valves. If the boes are a little stained don't panic, as long as they are not pitted they usualy do just fine. If all comes out well run it on the hose with cheap 30wt and a cup of Simple Green until up to full temp then 20-30 minutes more that will pull the water out of all the hidden spots.
Phil
BUIZILLA
04-15-2006, 02:10 PM
head gaskets...
BUIZILLA
04-15-2006, 02:24 PM
okay, that explains #4 plug now let's see whats up with the third plug
Joe I could be wrong but check the head bolts to see if they have sealer on them, to me it looks like the water crept up the bolts. That is a very common mistake, Chevies must have the GM sealer on the bolts. If there is none I would bite tha Mohanic big!! How do the bores look?
Phil
Did you forget to drain the block or was that much water in the holes???
mrfixxall
04-15-2006, 02:52 PM
cuda, post a pic of the head bolts...is their sealer on them?
Does it look like something is going on with these two exhaust valves?
Did you forget to drain the block or was that much water in the holes???
Nah, I forgot to drain it. It ain't the first time I fogot that.
The bores look real good, no scoring or anything. I sucked out all the water, then wiped the cylinders down with MMO, then coated them with motor oil. Everything rotates real smooth.
cuda, post a pic of the head bolts...is their sealer on them?
There doesn't appear to be any sealer on them.
That's about all I can do for now. I'll scrape the gasket surfaces when Deb gets back from Walmart with new scraper. I bet I have a half dozen scrapers around here, and can't find one. :(
I think I'll take the heads down and have a valve job done, and the heads checked. I'll check the block for flatness, then put it back together, and call it good.
I'm going to change all the nuts on the rockers while I'm at it. 10 of the 16 rockers had some wiggle room in them. I'm susupicious of that, because one came loose on this engine before. They told me they changed them all back out, but I can see there was only one new nut on it.:mad:
BUIZILLA
04-15-2006, 03:33 PM
Joe, I'm troubled by something obvious here.... at least to me.
you have water intrusion coming in from almost every exhaust valve, not the intakes.... it's either a riser/manifold issue, or water entered through the thru hulls pipes somehow...
this may also help explain the hard cranking issue/starter eating problem in the past...
tell me about your flushing theatre, and how you go about this??
did this start after the 'sota gathering ,when the boat was sooo low in the water ??
camshaft reversion??
did this start after the 'sota gathering ,when the boat was sooo low in the water ??
?
I think so. I've had so much trouble with this boat, it's hard for me to keep it straight in my mind.
I thought about the camshaft too, but it doesn't sound that lumpy.
Sure does not look like they used sealer on the bolts, like I said a common but stupid mistake, you are lucky to have low time so I doubt if the threads in the block have weakened. Guys that put heads on with no sealer end up screwing the block up in (1) season in salt, my kid forgot and ruined the treads. I got away with coiling the holes so far so good 4 years ago. Stop by any GM dealer and grab a tube so you have it on hand, also get a Felpro Blue one torque head set they are great gaskets. From the looks of things you got a HOSE job from that Mohanic! And he did say he pressure checked the manifolds!!! **** I would not rust a damn word that boy had to say! Man I hate Schlock Mohanics!
Phil
I hope you have small claims court down your way, I would go after that guy the photos tell the story.
From the looks of things you got a HOSE job from that Mohanic! And he did say he pressure checked the manifolds!!! **** I would not rust a damn word that boy had to say! Man I hate Schlock Mohanics!
Phil
This was a different mechanic I used when I lived on the other coast. It was my guy I use now that checked the manifolds. I saw him doing it.
One half the block cleaned off.
DonziJon
04-15-2006, 05:43 PM
OK: I've Now had a couple of martinis ..I'm cool..I'm cool. This engine has 10 hours on it..What??..since the last oil change??? OR.. some kind of overhaul?? Cylinders full of water???? Is there a DOCTOR in the house?? :confused: JOHN
Joe I am proud of you man you are working like you have a Bon Fire under your butt! Looks like the Formula will have a nice engine soon!
Phil
OK: I've Now had a couple of martinis ..I'm cool..I'm cool. This engine has 10 hours on it..What??..since the last oil change??? OR.. some kind of overhaul?? Cylinders full of water???? Is there a DOCTOR in the house?? :confused: JOHN
The cylinders are full of water because I forgot to drain the block before I tore it down.
Joe I am proud of you man you are working like you have a Bon Fire under your butt! Looks like the Formula will have a nice engine soon!
Phil
Yeah, I've actually gotten more done today than I figured. I might still go out and clean the other side of the block, and you know better than I do, that scraping old gaskets isn't nearly as much fun as taking stuff apart. :)
Yeah, I've actually gotten more done today than I figured. I might still go out and clean the other side of the block, and you know better than I do, that scraping old gaskets isn't nearly as much fun as taking stuff apart. :)
LOL! Is your Dad involved in this? If so buy that man a :beer:
LOL! Is your Dad involved in this? If so buy that man a :beer:
I've sent him some pictures. He'd be proud of how clean I got the block. He's been on me for half ass cleaning gasket surfaces all my life. I think this was the first one I've ever done that wasn't still in a car. It's a whole lot easier. The weather was good today, not too hot, and not too cold. I love having a garage! :)
You have no clue what I would give for an inside place to work! I bet Deb is also proud to see you A&E on the engine!
Phil
gcarter
04-15-2006, 07:00 PM
Hey guys, I have a question about the GM thread sealer.
The last time I bought some, it looked and felt exactly like teflon pipe dope.
Anyone have an opinion? The pipe dope is a heck of a lot cheaper.
BUIZILLA
04-15-2006, 07:46 PM
I use Permatex thread sealer w/ teflon
your friendly pointed arrow
Rootsy
04-17-2006, 10:11 AM
Hylomar works wonders to seal those threads also... though more difficult to find in most auto parts stores...
Joe,
i NEVER use the cork end gaskets for the intake set either... Permatex Ultra Black... good bead across and slightly onto the heads, set your side gaskets in place...
do you have internal or external flappers on your exhaust tips... does it have switchable exhaust to run thru-prop? though a camshaft may not sound very "lumpy" it may still be sucking water back at idle.. especially with stock merc risers... be nice if you had the card taht came with that camshaft
did they pressure check the manifolds and risers as an assembly as taken off the boat? the leak generally occurs at the gasket joint on a merc setup...
and just so you know.. on a hydraulic lifter.. if the motor sits a bit or is just "spun over" a few times the lifter will bleed down under the valve spring pressure and you'll get a slight amount of play in the rocker arm...
Ed Donnelly
04-17-2006, 10:35 AM
Cuda; May sound like a stupid question,but,when you ran the engine on the hose,was the trailor jacked up,or was the tongue resting on the ground?
My buddy called me yesterday and said his engine was running really rough.
Had the tongue resting on the ground and the water was running back into the collectors.. When he went to fire it up the second time, the engine was hydrolocked.......Ed
Rootsy, it has EMI exhaust. I never thought about that deal with the lifters, you might be right.
joseph m. hahnl
04-17-2006, 07:07 PM
What is all the Red<RTV SEALER?Did it even have a head gasket. What happened is the guy who rebuilt it used the old gaskets and stuffed the Rtv sealer all over it. The head gasket rings around the the cylinder were allready compressed and were probably leaking right at the get go.
joe
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