Family Drama

[onesubdrvr]

Well,

My 10 year old has been in trouble the last few days for not following some rules (specifically stated that very morning by my wife and I). So, she's been a little pissy with us since she is being punished. Well, this evening (for some reason), my 9 year old tells us that a little over a week ago, the 10 year old threatened her with a knife to help her with her chore of putting clean dishes away from the dishwasher!!!!

They were both recent (2 years ago on Easter) aquisitions to our family, as they were living with there "real" mom until then, a place no child should be with open abuse, drug use, etc. Unfortunately, it seems like it's too late, she hasn't done anything but lie, cheat, and steal since she's been here, I thought with proper guidance, care, and stability, that things would change, but they haven't. We tried counseling, for nearly a year, with no progress. She is the scary type of person that shows no remorse for hurting others (emotionally or physically), only sadness that she's in trouble. I don't get it!!

The 9 year old has changed in leaps and bounds, but still has little slips every now and then, but all stuff I can deal with.

I really don't know what to do, there are 4 kids in the house, and one in the way. I don't know if she would really do anything or not, but I feel I can't risk it. I've called a "crisis" line asking for help, I'm so stunned right now,..... I guess I just have to wait :(

[Ed Donnelly]

Wayne. I am not suggesting this,but, 2 yrs ago my 9 yr. old was getting completley out of hand. I put him in the truck and drove 2 hrs. to our famous Kingston Penitentiary. Pulled up in front of the gates and told him if I had one
more problem with him,I would hand him over to Childrens Aide and this is where they will ship him. Saw an immediate improvement. A couple of months ago he mentioned Kingston Pen and said "You really wouldn't send me there,would you?" I smiled and send "Try Me".......Ed

[BGH18]

Wayne,
best wishes to you, my ex turned my 12 year old son ( who I had a good relationship with ) against me and my whole family. We were a tight family
& he will have nothing to do with any of us. Went to court to exersize my visitation rights and after $ 8,000 in legal fee's and seeing so much -hit fall through the cracks I said #ell with it. The legal system #ucks in this country.
By the way never missed a child support payment either. Good luck brother...What about DEAD BEAT MOTHERS??????

[onesubdrvr]

Wayne. I am not suggesting this,but, 2 yrs ago my 9 yr. old was getting completley out of hand. I put him in the truck and drove 2 hrs. to our famous Kingston Penitentiary. Pulled up in front of the gates and told him if I had one
more problem with him,I would hand him over to Childrens Aide and this is where they will ship him. Saw an immediate improvement. A couple of months ago he mentioned Kingston Pen and said "You really wouldn't send me there,would you?" I smiled and send "Try Me".......Ed

I'm not against trying that, but I don't know how well that will go, she's been to a prison and a jail to see her mom's boyfriend when he was locked up. BUT, me taking her might have a completely different effect. And our closest one is Okechobee, which can be a scary ride itself, lots of canals, swamps, alligators, snakes, etc.!!

Wayne

[ChromeGorilla]

Wyane, not having kids myself, I am the last one to give you advice. I just hope that all is well for you and your entire family and hope that she turns for the better with her attitude. No matter how bad she gets though I think it's important to show her love..... tough love perhaps but love none the less...

I have to hand it to all of you with children..... I don't know how you do it.... I'm terrified, I wouldn't have the first clue on raising a littleone.....


Good luck Wayne.

[Cuda]

I've never raised any children either, so I'm not much help, just hoping for the best for you and your family. Remember, you have the safety of the other children to concern yourself with.

Best of luck.

[Lenny]

Wayne, I have two girls, 18 and 9 now. I can't help much, but, I can tell you this. We (then married) bought a horse for my eldest one, at the age of 4. She rode for a while, lessons forever, yadda yadda yadda. Then she didn't "like" that one and wanted another, bigger, Palamino etc, and that would suffice. Then, that was not good enough, and she went pro riding and had a lease on a Thoroughbred, and lessons every other day.

My job became to shod the horses every month, feed them everyday, (they were on my property) and buy their food and other "cholicly" aids to keep them alive. I said many times, "the horses need to be fed." Met with a $uck you, let them die. You can imagine how I felt about that after investing in their purchase, the yard, the fencing, the stalls, the food, the food storage, the lessons etc... Finally we sold them, we got divorced, the eldest daughter had nothing, I pay child support and her riding days are over...

Now, she is an " A " student, graduating, tons of respect both from and for her, no tantrums and generally a joy to be around.

SHe was a DAMIAN movie unto herself, times 100, from age 7-ish-15. Now, 18, she is more mature than I.

Hang in there. I know, it is brutal. Beyond brutal. It usually gets better, never seems soon enough. Now I can not remember how mad I used to be about the situations, only the good.

[LKSD]

Wayne,
Good luck to you bud.. Kristin & I dont have any kids yet either.. Also we aren't sure if we can.. we have talked about adoption or foster programs.. Before my wife came to work with me ( if you want to call it that.. lol.. ) My wife used to work for childrens service center after she found out she didnt like working at a law firm.. She said its a craps shoot as to what you get if you adopt or foster.. I told her I believe its a crap shoot even if they are your own blood.. You still downt know what the future will really hold..
Your situation sounds rough.. The penitentary thing sounds like a good idea. Also have you thought of a military scool threat or a good old fassioned a$$ kicking.. When Kristin & I were little and got out of line we got the belt!! Im not tryiing to offend anyone, and I am not saying to brutally hurt anyone. I am just saying maybe a crack or 2 to instill a little fear of god may help... I wish you the best... Jamie

[joel3078]

Hmmmm, we have a common thing going on again. No kids here either, however, when Uncle Joel comes over to see my Niece and Nephew, the kids love it. The only thing I have ever thought this could be was I play like a kid and pay total attention to them when I am around them. I'm like the fun guy and not the pain in the ass parent. I have on occasion had to disipline both of them just like my parents did to me. What always has worked for me was to give the kids a choice of plan A or plan B. A is the good thing and B is the bad thing - it's their choice not mine. If you have to do the B thing, then it usually means going out of your way to deliver the bad thing. Dang kids are like employees, always testing the water to see how far ya can go. Bottom line is I think kids need lots more attention and love from BOTH parents at the same to make things work. Sadly, most kids are from blended families and super busy schedules so BOTH blood parents are rareley there at the same time. Kids use this to their advantage and play the game of dad doesn't or mom doesn't do, make me, said....... In any case, when looking for parenting advice, I'd go back a generation and ask grandparents for advice. The world is way different with each generation however, isn't being a parent still the same with each generation? I betcha the old people would love to chat with ya on this subject. Hell, they may even pick up the beer tab. :beer: Sure there is new ways of doing things, but for me, old tried and true knowledge is the best. :yes:

[florida gator]

Sounds tough. I have a 10 year old girl now. She doesn't like to listen but is otherwise a great kid. I also have a 3 yo boy. I think you should show them plenty of love and probably even some one on one time as often as you can. I take my daughter only often when boating or atving. She loves sports and outdoors. You need to know what's important to her and that will be your ammo for good behavior. Some kids aren't affected at all by spanking, time out, etc. You find what they are passionate about and hold that over there head as behavior issues arise. I would let her know soon she is starting with a clean slate and what your expectations are and what the consequences could be.

[Ranman]

Well Onesubdiver considering the advice you've received so far for your 10 year old daughter has been to take her to the penitentiary; military school, and give her a good old fashioned a$$ kicking;.. I would recommend you seek counsel elsewhere besides this site.
With that being said obviously there no easy answers but as the father of a 23 year old daughter who was ‘hell on wheels’, yet a good kid and someone whom with a stay at home wife/mom fostered 7 children over a 10 year period I will tell you there is no magic formula…
But a few constants for us were:
1. Everything was open for discussion/debate ECT at least once…..after that you accept the decision and move on....and it wasn't always my idea that followed
2 Time, lots of time…quality time but more importantly just time…QUANITY time…time doing the most mundane things...just let them know that you will always be there. Prove it
3. Consistency…says what you mean, mean what you say. Teach responsibility for your actions…accountability…if you screw up, there will be a consequence…and we never hit or even threatened to hit any of the children, although we beat ourselves often in the early days…and believe me my wife and I were not brought up this way…we were both spanked, my father used the belt and a few kicks in between…didn’t hurt me but in all honestly I don’t think it helped either…I knew they loved me either way.
4. Your heart is going to get broken…accept it, expect it…there will be lots of tough decisions to be made, some will hurt like hell, but the rewards are tremendous.
My 23 year old daughter is going to grad school at Columbia this fall; 2/7 Foster children graduated from college, one is a teacher and one is a nurse, 1 is still in college, 1’s a cop, and 1 is in the military…we also lost touch with 1 and 1 died from a drug overdose at the age of 18, 6 months after he left our care. We still talk to them every week (except Peter who’s in the service and Mike who is missing), see them all at least once a year….so all in all we got a lot more than we gave.

IMO, this is the best advice out of all the replies here. Set the example and live by it. Use positive reinforcement. Kids get used to the pain, threats, etc and just become more resentful. Continue to work with them in a positive manner and eventually things will change.

A ship will not turn on a dime, but if you work at it you can bring one around gradually.

[onesubdrvr]

Well,

First, thanks to everyone here and especially those behind the scenes for the help, advice, and information.

These kids had a pretty screwed up life before they came to live here, it's something I need to keep in mind.

I truely appreciate the fact I can vent to people outside of the immediate situation and get such response, the different points of view stimulate the cerebral activity, and it really shows how much everyone cares.

We will trudge through this, and as long as persistance and patience is the key, we will be fine, but, there are things that I'll never understand about children, and that's OK, that's why I do what I do for a living, and am not a social worker.

I too know my areas of weekness, and although there are but a couple (:rolleyes:), I know what I need to work on to make this all work. One thing is, we've got to go fishing / boating more often!! It's one of my fondest memories of when I was a kid, and when were doing that, there is less time to get in trouble!! We were going to go today, but we have a couple of showings for the house tomorrow, and I wanted to mow the yard / etc before it showed. So, I've got to get the ball rolling on getting the Ragazza finally sold, so that I can get the family boat, get the X rolling, spend some quality time away from the hustle and bustle of everyday life, and enjoy one another while relaxing, and hopefully teaching each other some life lessons along the way.

Thanks again everyone, 1st Hurricane is on me!

Wayne

[Formula Jr]

Ranman is right. You just have to be very slow and constant. They will come around. This is what men do. It is our un-celibrated task to do so. The world isn't an even place. It may be one day. But isn't now. There is a place you can all find. Do you love your children? Then the answers are always easy.

[Lenny]

..NICE... :yes:

[Patti]

So sorry to hear about you having to deal with this Wayne..

As mom to a son who is about to turn 18 and graduate HS I can definitely relate to the frustration or raising children at times.

I raised Rob alone (I was widowed at 23) and more often than not..I had to be the bad guy..I definitely didnt take **** from him..still dont..he knows better than to even say "damn" in front of me..but thanfully he is a terrific kid..and smart young man.

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you..but honestly it sounds like the issues are a bit more difficult..and I dont know if spanking (i'm all for it) would be enough..psychological trauma is very hard for kids..and can manifest itself it many different ways..

As much as they act out..as a 10 year old..I feel for her....children are a product of their enviornment..and i'm guessing that before you and your wife..it wasn't a pleasant enviornment for her..

I hope that you can somehow get through this..and that she can somehow get through whatever it is that traumatized her..I admire you..I dont know what i'd do..Jamie I & will definitely keep you guys in our thoughts though..

[Formula Jr]

Sometimes I have to pause in the middle of the day and reflect on the fact that I'm not screwed up more than I am. Both parents, now both dead, were crazy people with very relativistic morals. My fiance' had the same background and both of us had to raise ourselves and construct what is good and bad. And to constuct that out of nothing at all and in many ways against what was presented as guidence. This did make us both stronger people since our "core" values are ones that we had to build with our own minds.. They were not given to us or shown to us. I am alive just out of shear luck and fortunate happenstance. And the best thing, was just to forgive my parents and move on. The altenative would have been to sit around and grumble about the crappy job they did. I just don't think about that anymore.

You have the terrible decision to make. Since there are other children involved.
I know that it is hard to talk to kids. They don't understand the power of words yet. They will however understand, if you sit one down, focus just on them, and then ask really deep questions. And tell them that you are tired. You will know if she is gaming you, and if she is, try another day. And that they need to do something different in order to help you and the family. You are making a deal here with them. They have to know how important the deal is and what the consequences are of braking that deal. And no matter how painful it may be, you follow the rules of the deal. You and your wife and the rest of the family have to be on the same page here. She can't find an out.

I don't think things have anything to do with kids. I know a very wealthy family, and their daughters are monsters and are confused and there is no inner direction for them. And they have had everything imaginable. I have seen them since babies and watched them grow. As an outsider I can say things, the parents can not. And I have on occasion. And it has helped.
I tell them, that your mom and dad are being exhusted by you. They can't sleep because you are being too rude and cazy. They have made this place for you. Give them some time to rest.

They respond to that.

[tiger lily]

My 23 year old daughter is going to grad school at Columbia this fall


im gonig to need pictures, and possibly a phone number:biggrin: :biggrin:

[gcarter]

I've become something of a fan of Dr. Phil. He's covered this subject a number of times.
Basically, time and attention is given, rules and responsibilities are laid out. If appropriate responses aren't forthcoming, the child starts losing thing that are important. If necessary, the childs room is stripped and the only thing they can have is a matress on the floor and their clothes. The idea is that the child slowly begins to realize that the bad behavier isn't paying off.

Hey Wayne, when are you going to Orlando again?

[Tony]

onesub, I believe that the dr.'s advice, and Ranman's follow-up, is sound.
Do not resort to more physical violence, it sounds like she has "been there, done that". Tough love does not necessarily mean heavy-handed, it can (and should) mean firm but fair...with consistent decisions and meaningful consequences. I am also a fan of positive reinforcement, mentioned above...praising and rewarding instead of scolding and removing priveleges.

As a 6th grade teacher I've witnessed many times the results of crappy parenting. To overcome it will take time and, as others have mentioned, a real dedication to proving you are there for the long run. Spend as many hours as possible doing fun things with all the kids, this is very difficult as our schedules are often so filled up. Remember to not overlook the other kids, and to treat them all equally.

You are to be commended for seeking help from all possible sources, even this site, where many have never even met! So, keep doing what you are doing, and (in my humble opinion, and hope) it is a strong liklihood that this phase will pass and you and yours will come out of it strong and close.

GOOD LUCK!



:)

[Rootsy]

Wayne,

i too feel your frustration... i've taken on the job of trying to properly raise an adolescent also... he has been shuffled from home to home since a toddler with no steady affection, some physical abuse no well defined rules or guidance and has been allowed to become quite unruly at times and lacking of proper manners... he's been with use for 4 days now and though he is making good progress.. he still has a long way to go... :) good luck man... you are in a tough spot :banghead: