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yeller
04-05-2006, 03:29 PM
It's my understanding that Whipple is the only company licensed to program the ECU's. So what is done when a procharger is installed?
JW, you must have some input.

Thanks,
Glen

The Hedgehog
04-05-2006, 06:27 PM
several others do it. I know of several that have cracked the code for the MEFI 1 and 3. I used Precision EFI out of Kenner LA. Mark Boos is the contact person. They do a pretty good bit of that work and have programs for quite a few power combos. Tyler Crockett, Arizona Speed Marine, Hardin and TMP all do it as well.

You don't necessarily have to do it with a Procharger but many find that it works better. With the M-3 kit you remove the thermostat and the motor runs in cold start mode. I was loading up at idle and had one heck of a black transom. After the reprogram everything was cleaned up a good bit and the throttle response was much smoother. The ECU seemed to appreciate knowing that the blower was there.

The other obstacle I had to overcome was the wrong setting for my Fuel Management Unit (FMU). Mine appearently came set from the factory with the gain set for 7lbs and I was loading up a good bit under boost (Since I was only running 5lbs). After I discussion with Mark and JW I ordered Prochargers FMU rebuild kit with different restrictor settings. After installing the 5lbs plate all problems were over. I now have a properly programmed ECU and FMU and life is good.

blackhawk
04-05-2006, 09:48 PM
It's my understanding that Whipple is the only company licensed to program the ECU's. So what is done when a procharger is installed?
JW, you must have some input.
Thanks,
Glen

It's my understanding that with the M1 you do not need to reprogram the ECU, just increse the fuel pressure(fuel pump and regulator) for the EFI system allowing it to supply more fuel. I would assume on a carb system you would need to jet accordingly.

The Hedgehog
04-05-2006, 10:42 PM
It's my understanding that with the M1 you do not need to reprogram the ECU, just increse the fuel pressure(fuel pump and regulator) for the EFI system allowing it to supply more fuel. I would assume on a carb system you would need to jet accordingly.
True. Like I said, you don't "have to" on the M-3. I would expect that you would have similar issues. I am guessing that you remove the thermostat on the M-1 as well. Especially considering the you have to spin it harder to produce the same amount of boost. Since you are spinning a smaller blower harder coupled with a smaller intercooler you will have even more heat for the same amount of boost. I am guessing that you are supposed to remove the thermostat and use a cross over. That would create the same cold start issues. Perhaps JW can chine in. He has done a bunch of installs. He should know.

In addition to cold start issues, I have read that simply putting a blower on creates mixture issues in other parts of the power band. The FMU does not start to crank up the fuel pressure until boost goes positive. I don't know how the fuel mixture will be adjusted at mid power settings. Before I figured out the issue with my fuel management system, I played with a number of fuel pressure settings. The engine was pretty sensitive to this in various RPM levels. This was pretty scary without an EGT.

Since the reprogram only cost around $300, I figured it was a good idea for my ECU to be calibrated for the blower. At the very least it got rid of the black transom. Since I was working on two issues at the same time, I can't exactly recall if there was a speed benefit of the reprogram. It did really seem to smooth out the lower and mid range power.

I do know that now that all is said and done my boat starts, idles and responds to changes in throttle even better than before. It now has that nice surge that kicks in right where I used to max out. My 4,000 RPM cruise is where I was at full throttle. I will know the complete top end answer in a few more days when the prop comes in. So far I have increased around 11 mph. I expect 2 maybe 3 more. Not bad for a big heavy non-step.

If I ever need more then I can always slap on that smaller pulley, pop in that bigger washer in the FMU and pick up a few more MPH. I am trying to hold off on that until next freshen. Then maybe who knows!

yeller
04-06-2006, 02:18 AM
Thanks for the response guys.
I still don't fully understand why you don't have to reprogram with a procharger. As far as I understand it, whether it be a whipple, procharger, B&M, etc, all superchargers do one basic thing and that is to supply more air to the engine. Regardless of what type you use, if you don't reprogram, won't you end up with a lean mixture?

Just so you know, I am not thinking of adding a procharger, I just bought a boat with one on it and am concerned about the setup.

yeller
04-06-2006, 02:21 AM
It's my understanding that with the M1 you do not need to reprogram the ECU, just increse the fuel pressure(fuel pump and regulator) for the EFI system allowing it to supply more fuel.

Ok, I just reread this post. If this is true, why does this not work for the whipple?

LKSD
04-06-2006, 07:28 AM
Just got to this thread.. :wavey: Sorry Im late

1. You do not usually ever need to reprogram with a Procharger... UNLESS you come in to a rare situation where you need to fine tune something, or have also done other internal major mods.. Big Green Zx's boat was not the norm for needing a recal.

2. Whipple & other roots blowers do because of heat & fuel..

3. Prochargers unit come with a piggy back regulator for fuel enrichment. They increase pressure and change the ammount of pressure gain at boost.. Also Prochargers intercoolers are larger creating cooler boost..

4. Yes carbbed models require rejetting & usually different floats in some carbs for a sc aplication. ALso you will still play with fuel pressure to a point no matter if its blown or sc. We usually use the holley stuff for sc applications and an blue pump with an added adjustable regulator & gauge. The blown stuff I prefer the Barry grant stuff... But thats just me..

Any other questions??? Fire away.. :) :) Jamie / Lakeside

CosmoKat
04-06-2006, 07:37 AM
Do you HAVE to use an intercooler with a pro charger?

LKSD
04-06-2006, 07:59 AM
You dont "Have to" on the carb units but I would not do it without one.. Its asking for problems.. I set up all SC units with intercoolers as they come in the kits.. I also prefer all blowers to run an intercooler. Jamie

CosmoKat
04-06-2006, 08:03 AM
So on an EFI unit you have to with a pro charger?

LKSD
04-06-2006, 08:16 AM
Yes, because it drastically cools the boost.. Like I said I would not recomend running any engine without an intercooler if you are putting boost to it.. I know people do it, but its not a good thing to do.... Jamie

The Hedgehog
04-06-2006, 08:47 AM
Thanks for the response guys.
I still don't fully understand why you don't have to reprogram with a procharger. As far as I understand it, whether it be a whipple, procharger, B&M, etc, all superchargers do one basic thing and that is to supply more air to the engine. Regardless of what type you use, if you don't reprogram, won't you end up with a lean mixture?
Just so you know, I am not thinking of adding a procharger, I just bought a boat with one on it and am concerned about the setup.
If it runs fine then I would not worry about it. I would go with with what JW says. He sold me my Procharger and has been very helpful with the installation process. JW is right about my boat, it is kind of an isolated instance. From talking to Marc at Precision I have learned that there are some isolated occasions that cause the need for a reprogram on a stock setup. He told me that they did a bunch of Procharger installs and that is how they got into the ECU business. If you are concerned about being too lean then do a plug reading.

One thing I would recommend is running boost and fuel pressure gauges. Especially since fuel pressure is paramount to the whole process. If you lose fuel pressure under boost and get a lean situation then look out. If you don't have those gauges then contact JW. He knows just what you need and has them.

BUIZILLA
04-06-2006, 08:53 AM
2. Whipple & other roots blowers do because of heat & fuel..
Jamie / Lakesidethis doesn't make sense...

JH

blackhawk
04-06-2006, 08:59 AM
Whipples/roots style blowers create more heat, so the ECU must be re-programmed to retard the timing. I'm not sure about the fuel.

The Hedgehog
04-06-2006, 09:05 AM
this doesn't make sense...
JH

I am not sure either but I do know that screw and roots blowers generate a more constant boost that comes on at much lower RPM. That should have something to do with it. The cent. blower spools up at higher RPM. Mine does not go positive until around 3,800 - 4,000 RPM depending on the prop.

A non intercooled roots or screw blower will be generating much more heat causing the need for a more precise mixture due to detonation concerns.

I think that Whipple uses a cupranickel intercooler but given the profile I don't know how it can cool more than the AW 504 that they stick on the M-3.

LKSD
04-06-2006, 09:57 AM
this doesn't make sense...
JH

The reprogram on a roots blower is to retard timing. Also the fuel injectors pulse width i belive is altered as well as the rev limiter. They are not usually as efficent as a supercharged unit with a large intercooler so they need to do this to end up comperable.. :) Jamie :garfield:

yeller
04-06-2006, 11:08 AM
All good info, thanks! Haven't even seen the boat yet, but I do believe it has all the necessary gauges. I just wanted to address some concerns before I take it out.
About fuel pressure: is it possible to run a second pump as a back up that kicks in under low pressure? I know what Big Green is saying, if you lose fuel pressure under boost you'll go too lean and kaboom!

Thanks again.

The Hedgehog
04-06-2006, 11:28 AM
All good info, thanks! Haven't even seen the boat yet, but I do believe it has all the necessary gauges. I just wanted to address some concerns before I take it out.
About fuel pressure: is it possible to run a second pump as a back up that kicks in under low pressure? I know what Big Green is saying, if you lose fuel pressure under boost you'll go too lean and kaboom!
Thanks again.

I would bet that it is possible but it would take someone better versed than me to figure out how.

What kind of setup and boat are you getting?

Rootsy
04-06-2006, 11:36 AM
there is more than one way to skin a cat... some are just more messy than others... :smash:

yeller
04-06-2006, 08:51 PM
there is more than one way to skin a cat... some are just more messy than others... :smash:

Hmmm, so first I have to buy a cat?:confused: :D


What kind of setup and boat are you getting?

04 Anniversary 22, 496/procharged. Pick it up Tuesday. Can't wait!!:hyper:

The Hedgehog
04-07-2006, 08:26 AM
That should haul ass!

Let us know how it works out. Be sure to post speeds and rpm's.

dick grande
04-10-2006, 09:01 AM
what the F, isn't a blower and a supercharger the same thing? A blow through compressor has an innercooler, a centrifugal has an aftercooler and by the way, a screw type compressor is the most efficient. Too much smoke in here and i forgot my hip boots, i need some fresh air. Have a nice day :boggled:

LKSD
04-10-2006, 09:47 AM
what the F, isn't a blower and a supercharger the same thing? A blow through compressor has an innercooler, a centrifugal has an aftercooler and by the way, a screw type compressor is the most efficient. Too much smoke in here and i forgot my hip boots, i need some fresh air. Have a nice day :boggled:


OK here goes.. A screw style blower is not the most efficent.. Althought they look & sound cool. You may want to recheck your info... They build more heat & take more power to turn. Also thats why you need to recal the ecm's with a screw style system. The recal retards the timing & changes the fuel injection pulse with to stay open longer to help prevent a lean detonation. While they are at it they also usually raise the rev limiter to compensate for the power loss due to the ignition timing retardation.. The difference between a blower & SC is a blower bolts to the intake and is belt driven also commonly called a roots system. It usually has more pep at low end than a supercharger. A supercharger takes less effort to turn, is also belt driven and is bolted to the side of the engine. It builds its boost more like a turbocharger.. :spit:

Mr X
04-10-2006, 10:00 AM
Right on JW!
Funny, his name translates in Spanish to: Big Dick.....:biggrin:

LKSD
04-10-2006, 10:08 AM
Right on JW!
Funny, his name translates in Spanish to: Big Dick.....:biggrin:


:D :D :D

Mr X
04-11-2006, 09:31 PM
JW, is it possible to buy just the cooler?
I have everything else.

BUIZILLA
04-11-2006, 09:51 PM
JW, sorry to disagree, but a lot of your info is just flat wrong. A screw type compressor, is not the same as a roots style blower. Further, you do NOT *have* to use a retard device on a screw type compressor, it is timing dependent based on VOLUME and PRESSURE, the same as a centrifigul requires. Anything on pump gas above 5-6# of boost requires some attention, I don't care what you use to cram air in the hole, and if your telling me that a screw type requires remapping and makes more heat, and a centrifigul doesn't, welp...........................

JH

LKSD
04-11-2006, 10:29 PM
JW, sorry to disagree, but a lot of your info is just flat wrong. A screw type compressor, is not the same as a roots style blower. Further, you do NOT *have* to use a retard device on a screw type compressor, it is timing dependent based on VOLUME and PRESSURE, the same as a centrifigul requires. Anything on pump gas above 5-6# of boost requires some attention, I don't care what you use to cram air in the hole, and if your telling me that a screw type requires remapping and makes more heat, and a centrifigul doesn't, welp...........................
JH

It's you right to disagree if you want to.. But whipples, B&M etc.. do typically build more heat than a supercharger. I agree you do not always have to retard the ignition.. I have set up blowers that did not have to have the timing retarded, But frequently it is done.. . Btw. The testing done by procharger in comparison to the other forced induction systems supports my earlier comments.. :) J
Check out the info below..

http://www.procharger.com/M_faqs.shtml
http://www.procharger.com/marine.shtml
http://www.procharger.com/faq.shtml
http://www.procharger.com/consumer_alert.shtml

LKSD
04-11-2006, 10:31 PM
JW, is it possible to buy just the cooler?
I have everything else.

Yes, Call me. I can sell just the intercooler. :)

Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628

The Hedgehog
04-12-2006, 07:37 AM
I have never heard the term "aftercooler."

Have you guys read about the Rotax blower that is coming out. It is supposed to be the most efficient of all.

Rootsy
04-12-2006, 09:00 AM
su·per·charg·er
Pronunciation: -"chär-j&r
Function: noun
: a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons

in a nutshell.. about efficiencies.. it takes the same amount of work to pressurize the same amount of air to the same pressure... so the heat generation theoretically should be the same in an apples to apples situation (that whole PV=nRT and P1V1T1 = P2V2T2 ratio stuff ya learned in thermodynamics eh), no matter which compressor you speak of... this then boils down to compressor efficiency as far as the amount of heat generated as inefficiency or wasted energy not turned into pressurized air... is HEAT... but you cannot speak of efficiencies unless you are again speaking apples to apples... performance and efficiency curves are not identical between compressor types... efficiencies only mean something if you are comparing for the same pressure ratios and compressor speeds...

the fact of the matter is... anytime you elevate the temperature of the air into the combustion chamber you bring the fuel closer to it's combustion point at a given pressure... it is an exact fact that you must either back off ignition timing, cool the incoming charge or provide an over rich fuel condition, in order to deter pre-ignition of the fuel charge...

the fact of the matter also is... anytime you increase thru-put and density of the incoming air charge you must increase fuel delivery... IMHO... procharger bandaides or should i say goes the "cheap" and "easy" route by essentially forcing 5 lbs of crap into a 2 lb bag by just upping the fuel pressure on an adjustable regulator to force more fuel through an injector running a stock fuel map... hot damn sounds like a single circuit carburetor to me in essence of fuel delivery... this is NOT the most efficient way to get the most from an engine... you'll be extremely rich in a large portion of the operating range just to be "on" at one point... exactly why some engines seem to work and some need to have the fuel map recalibrated with the procharger setup due to extreme rich conditions... folks like whipple and magnacharger, etc, recalibrate the fuel maps in order to let the computer drive the injector pulse width to supply the proper amount of fuel throughout the operating range over all loading conditions... not because they have to due to compresor type but because it is the correct way to do it... there's no smoke and mirrors and no magic crystal ball here folks... basic solid engineering and design...

i absolutely detest how the aftermarket hypes the living crap out of a product and twists actual data, performance and results to the unsuspecting public... and the car craft reading John Q Public buys into it, accepts it as fact and law cause "the manufacturer say it's SO" as the next great wizbang thing to bolt on... the masses are rather naive... just thumb through a summit or jegs catalog sometime...

btw, the Eaton Gen VI compressor... yet to be released to the public via magnason, GM, BMW, etc (still in performance and durability testing).. is gonna put ever single supercharger and turbocharger on the market.. in their graves as far as efficiency, heat generation and thru-put... period... currently there is plenty of data to support this claim.. i am sworn to secrecy due to confidentiality...

it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...

JR

yeller
04-12-2006, 09:52 AM
Well, if you have all the right gauges, you can tell pretty quickly (without damage) if it works or not.

Buizilla, I was just hopin' to keep this light. I appreciate everyones opinion. When replies start to sound more like attacks on someones character, it just makes them stop posting.

Where's the LOVE... :biggrin.: :beer: :spongebob

Dr. Dan
04-12-2006, 10:12 AM
:biggrin.: In the Spirit of Screw Compressor Type Things...and Speaking of Input, or Thru Put... or what are ya trying to put me through? :bonk:

I dated this girl once... wow, she new something or two about forstalling premature detonation... but well ...that's another topic...

OK Back to the people killing each other in the Battle Bots Mad Festival of Unrealistic Power Expectations & Theoretical Speed...:banghead:

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh! YEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaHHHHHHHhhhhh!

Ok I'm Done :wavey:

Anonymous :D

yeller
04-12-2006, 10:32 AM
Dr.Dan, always there to lighten things up :biggrin.: :rlol:

Rootsy
04-12-2006, 10:38 AM
It has inside what is almost like a wacky paddle

since we're being all technical and all...

if my memory serves me correctly (some of those graduate courses burnt out a few braincells).. that wacky paddle is a modified involute profile projected along a helical path about a fixed axis... :wink:

roadtrip se
04-12-2006, 11:03 AM
and forget about all of this malarky. I know of at least three 540 torque monster projects underway as we speak. Personal stuff aside, including Doc's afternoon delight fantasy, the points here are very good and well made. But torque available across the whole powerband is where the fun is and most usable. I may be a little slower than you at the top end, but if I walk away from you before you ever have a chance to spool up, then the game is over.

An interesting insight from my friend, Mike D'Annibele, of Sterling Performance, which is less than two miles from my doorstep. We all hear about his big, supercharged stuff in the Outerlimits and Skaters, but the biggest growing piece of his business is normally aspirated 540 and 598s.

I wonder how I shoehorn a 598 or a V-10 in that engine bay.

Blowers, been there, done that, and what a pain in the collective arse it truly was. Never again!

blackhawk
04-12-2006, 04:53 PM
Wow haven't checked this thread in awhile!

Lots of technical words being thrown around here. I'm confused! :confused: :D

Bottom line is it's all about setup! If you don't know anything about dialing in a boat Whipple is the way to go. If you have the knowledge to dial a boat in Prochargers work great too! JW has the knowledge and knows how to set them up.

Of course ATI is going to say they are the best! :rolleyes: Name a performance company that says they're second best? Whipple also says they are the best. So does Vortech. It's called MARKETING! :D

Call the Procharger system a "band-aid" system if you want but bottom line when set-up properly it works. The fuel pressure is increased at the boost increases. Don't ask me how it technically works cause I don't know and I don't care.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's all about preference. If you want whipple buy a whipple. If you want ATI buy an ATI. I personally do not want instant boost! I would rather have it come on later. Most of us do have Bravo drives! :rolleyes: Procharged boats cruise just fine too. Plus, if you spend most of your time "cruising" what the hell do you have a performance boat for? :D

PS: JW never "compared" roots and screw, whipple and B&M, whatever. He just stated that they(they meaning both styles) typically build more heat, which is true.

BUIZILLA
04-12-2006, 05:59 PM
I'm not slamming you, or your belief's or your talents, I just want you to be more open minded.
JHI think you forgot to read the last sentence...

Ed Donnelly
04-13-2006, 12:01 AM
I,ve run twin turbos on both of my Donzi's. Easier on the drives as you don't make boost right away.. Was looking for a big honking B&M all shiney for the BLING,but,a very generous member offered me a Procharger for peanuts..Not the BLING factor,but my drive will likely last longer........Ed

PS. turbos, free H.P. my ass. They cost more than any blower.:smile: :smile:

harbormaster
04-14-2006, 09:09 AM
Listen up everyone. Please REALIZE THAT this site is filled with alot of experts who WILL ALWAYS HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS. Its disappointing that I have to step in and treat some of you guys like childern.

Remember. With online communications there is no voice inflection or facial expressions. Take everything with a grain of salt.

Ed Donnelly
04-14-2006, 10:58 AM
I am HAPPY:hyper: to see the BIG guy step in. Strong words:kaioken: were spoken by a few people:banghead: that should have cooled :chillpill down a bit The tech stuff was over my head:bonk: but I got a better understanding:wrench: At least the verbal abuse:cussball: was clean.
Looks like this thread is over:yippie: so I am going to go work on my boat:boat: and get off this puter:computer: . Have a great day ..Ed:wavey: :canada:

harbormaster
04-14-2006, 02:43 PM
I would like to see a calm adult discussion in a new thread showcasing the subjects that are being disputed in this one. Like poodle said there is the potential for alot of good info for everyone.

gcarter
04-14-2006, 04:41 PM
I would like to see a calm adult discussion in a new thread showcasing the subjects that are being disputed in this one. Like poodle said there is the potential for alot of good info for everyone.
But before this one is completely over,......I'd like to make a historical, tecnical point.
The term intercooler and aftercooler are frequently used interchangably and incorrectly. It's kind of like the historical defination of engine and motor having to do with the power being generated internally or externally.
An "AFTERCOOLER" is a device used to cool the charge of a SINGLE supercharger. Yes folks, some applications have staged, series mounted multiple superchargers, and coolers located between those superchargers are "INTERCOOLERS".
I'm done.:propeller

BUIZILLA
04-14-2006, 05:32 PM
Actually, George is very close, but no cigar...

but not to be confused with the *charge air cooler*....:biggrin:

gcarter
04-14-2006, 05:53 PM
Actually, George is very close, but no cigar...
but not to be confused with the *charge air cooler*....:biggrin:
So Jim, where did I miss it?

Ed Donnelly
04-14-2006, 07:46 PM
HMMM Vortech call theirs aftercoolers
Gale Banks,Procharger call them intercoolers,
Who's right??????........Ed

The Hedgehog
04-14-2006, 08:06 PM
HMMM Vortech call theirs aftercoolers
Gale Banks,Procharger call them intercoolers,
Who's right??????........Ed

That is my thought as well. So I guess that the intercooler that cools the air charge after the turbocharger on my truck is actually an aftercooler. Perhaps the folks at Garret, ATI, Banks all have it wrong. But hey stranger things happen.

I would like to know the real answer on that one.

gcarter
04-14-2006, 08:35 PM
I'm a real history buff. I collect books on WW II aircraft and their engines.
The best folks for centrifugal superchargers in that time frame was Rolls Royce. Some of their engines had three stage centrifugal blowers with a cooler between each. So the coolers between the first and second, and second and third stages were intercoolers, followed by an aftercooler between the third stage and the inlet plenum. These blowers were also two and three speed and sometimes with alcohol injection. And what's really amazing is they were incredibly compact.

LKSD
04-14-2006, 08:42 PM
I agree they do have different names technically depending on where they are used & how. I don't know exactly at this point what technical name you guys are searching for. They operate as heat exchangers. Some are air to air, some are air to water. They cool the air being fed, forced, inducted etc..etc.. into the engine. It helps to prevent pre-ignition and build more power. Also the cooler the air the more dense it is.. :cool:

Now I want to finish up & close my shop for the night so I can go home to my favorite "COOLER" my refridgerator & get a cold brew.. :beer: :beer:

jamie :)

LKSD
04-14-2006, 08:44 PM
I'm a real history buff. I collect books on WW II aircraft and their engines.
The best folks for centrifugal superchargers in that time frame was Rolls Royce. Some of their engines had three stage centrifugal blowers with a cooler between each. So the coolers between the first and second, and second and third stages were intercoolers, followed by an aftercooler between the third stage and the inlet plenum. These blowers were also two and three speed and sometimes with alcohol injection. And what's really amazing is they were incredibly compact.

Very interesting... I knew some old aircraft were supercharged.. i didnt know that they had multiple superchargers though in aircraft applications or that RR used them with alchol injection.. It's amazing what some of those guys did & got to work back then.. Jamie :)

Ed Donnelly
04-14-2006, 08:48 PM
JW; Now that makes sense The frig. is the inter cooler to your stomach
Your bladder is the after cooler to your pen*s........Ed

LKSD
04-14-2006, 09:05 PM
JW; Now that makes sense The frig. is the inter cooler to your stomach
Your bladder is the after cooler to your pen*s........Ed


Thats a good one.. Have a good weekend.. I gotta get some sleep.. I am working tomorrow so hopefully I can rest on Easter for a change.. Deadlines, deadlines deadlines.. :( :(

Take care.. :) Jamie

gcarter
04-14-2006, 09:08 PM
Oops, I was just checking some of my sources and I couldn't find a three stage supercharger in production engines, but it was probably done.
Some were three speed with alcohol injection and automatic boost control. The different speed gearing and alcohol injection were dependent on throttle position, altitude, and the automatic boost control.

LKSD
04-14-2006, 09:10 PM
Oops, I was just checking some of my sources and I couldn't find a three stage supercharger in production engines, but it was probably done.
Some were three speed with alcohol injection and automatic boost control. The different speed gearing and alcohol injection were dependent on throttle position, altitude, and the automatic boost control.


That's pretty wild.. :)

Dr. Dan
04-14-2006, 10:47 PM
Thats a good one.. Have a good weekend.. I gotta get some sleep.. I am working tomorrow so hopefully I can rest on Easter for a change.. Deadlines, deadlines deadlines.. :( :(
Take care.. :) Jamie


Don't worry about it ... Relax it's just Undertakers Boat... he won't notice if everything is not done... really... "He Sees' Dead People" ! :spongebob

I'm kidding.... nite JW....nite George...Nite Jim.... hey keep your aftercooler outta my Innercooler.... would ya?

Doc of the Waltons.... :beer:

LKSD
04-15-2006, 07:35 AM
Don't worry about it ... Relax it's just Undertakers Boat... he won't notice if everything is not done... really... "He Sees' Dead People" ! :spongebob
I'm kidding.... nite JW....nite George...Nite Jim.... hey keep your aftercooler outta my Innercooler.... would ya?
Doc of the Waltons.... :beer:

Actually His boat is done.. I went for a ride down the road in Ed's boat yesterday at about 20mph.. It handles supprisingly well on ROUGH blacktop.. Just kidding.. It was a smooth parking lot.. I was testing his new gps speedo.. My dad pulled the boat & trailer with my truck down the parking lot while I watched the gauge to ensure it would register... I got some strange looks from the neighbors.. NOW when he pulls up along side you guys he will know how fast you are really going..

He got some nice goodies installed.. Red Eddie Battery boxes, K&N Flame arrestor & GPS Monster speedo.. He is supposed to have mw wing on his new Isotta wheel wed morning.. He will be stylin fo Sho.. :D :D Jamie

Dr. Dan
04-15-2006, 07:47 AM
:smash: Nice....Can't wait to see it.... so what is "He is supposed to have mw wing on his new Isotta wheel wed morning.. " whats a MW????

I might go out in the Bay today....grab some lunch....etc. looking nice so far...:beer:

Doc Tor Do Little :spongebob

LKSD
04-15-2006, 07:52 AM
:)
:smash: Nice....Can't wait to see it.... so what is "He is supposed to have mw wing on his new Isotta wheel wed morning.. " whats a MW????
I might go out in the Bay today....grab some lunch....etc. looking nice so far...:beer:
Doc Tor Do Little :spongebob

sorry... typo.. I meant "ME" .. Sorry.. :) :) :)

Dr. Dan
04-15-2006, 09:52 AM
:)
sorry... typo.. I meant "ME" .. Sorry.. :) :) :)

Sooooooo what's a Me Wing for an Isotta Wheel? I musta missed that part of Donzi School?

Retard from the South...

LKSD
04-15-2006, 10:07 AM
Sooooooo what's a Me Wing for an Isotta Wheel? I musta missed that part of Donzi School?
Retard from the South...


Boy oh boy.. (lol..) I should have just said install... :) :) :) Jamie

undertaker
04-18-2006, 12:44 PM
Don't worry about it ... Relax it's just Undertakers Boat... he won't notice if everything is not done... really... "He Sees' Dead People" ! :spongebob
I'm kidding.... nite JW....nite George...Nite Jim.... hey keep your aftercooler outta my Innercooler.... would ya?
Doc of the Waltons.... :beer:




:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Danny you are not right.....:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


Undertaker:beer:

undertaker
04-18-2006, 12:47 PM
Sooooooo what's a Me Wing for an Isotta Wheel? I musta missed that part of Donzi School?
Retard from the South...



Jaime you gotta understand that Doc is a CARPET salesman, and you know how salesman are....;) ;)


See ya on Wednesday:yes: :yes:


Undertaker :propeller

gcarter
10-23-2007, 08:25 PM
I finally found a good diagram of an aircraft engine w/ both an intercooler and an aftercooler......
The engine in question is a Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major radial w/28 cylinders (four rows of seven cylinders each (71.5 Liters)). Some of these engines were rated at 4,300 HP @ 2,800 RPM !!!:eek!::eek!:

gcarter
10-23-2007, 08:34 PM
So, here's the diagram...
The output of all 28 cylinders go through two General Electric turbochargers (ab out 36" in diameter) and boosts the inlet air significantly. The compressed air from both turbos are joined and goes through the "intercooler". The air then goes through the third single turbo, again the output is cooled in an "aftercooler" before intering the carb inlet.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32325&d=1193189632

gcarter
10-23-2007, 08:43 PM
Pratt & Whitney built and planned some other variations also.
In this one, the exhaust goes through a blowdown turbine that geared to the back end of the cranshaft. Note, there's also a combustion chamber that fuel can be injected and ignited for additional output.
Pretty neat!:)

The Hedgehog
10-29-2007, 08:11 AM
That's great info. So the original intercooler was between compressors and the "aftercooler" was the last. It is amazing what has been borrowed from the aviation industry and changed/adapted for the marine industry. I remember when people thought that steps were new technology. They have been used on float planes for many years before they were adopted on performance boats.

BTW, I Eddie Young of Young Performance Marine in the Nashville also does reprogramming. He builds blower motors ranging up to 1,200 hp. I am having him do a number of things for me this winter. He is a good guy and really knows his stuff.

smokediver
10-29-2007, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=Rootsy;368009]su·per·charg·er
Pronunciation: -"chär-j&r
btw, the Eaton Gen VI compressor... yet to be released to the public via magnason, GM, BMW, etc (still in performance and durability testing).. is gonna put ever single supercharger and turbocharger on the market.. in their graves as far as efficiency, heat generation and thru-put... period... currently there is plenty of data to support this claim.. i am sworn to secrecy due to confidentiality...
HOT ROD mag. did an in depth test of the new supercharger a few months ago ... less heat , less power to operate .. looked really cool !!!

The Hedgehog
10-29-2007, 10:25 AM
[QUOTE=Rootsy;368009]su·per·charg·er
Pronunciation: -"chär-j&r
btw, the Eaton Gen VI compressor... yet to be released to the public via magnason, GM, BMW, etc (still in performance and durability testing).. is gonna put ever single supercharger and turbocharger on the market.. in their graves as far as efficiency, heat generation and thru-put... period... currently there is plenty of data to support this claim.. i am sworn to secrecy due to confidentiality...
HOT ROD mag. did an in depth test of the new supercharger a few months ago ... less heat , less power to operate .. looked really cool !!!


I did not read the Hot Rod article but I have heard about some sort of Rotax blower that sounded similar. Is that it?

Pismo
10-29-2007, 10:27 AM
If ever in Houston, there is an Air and Space museum there that is full of engines like these. Plus lots of planes and Apollo program stuff.

smokediver
10-29-2007, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=smokediver;428508]
I did not read the Hot Rod article but I have heard about some sort of Rotax blower that sounded similar. Is that it?
I have the mag in my restroom at home :) will let you know which month the article is in .. it has an extra turn in the helix and it has a valve in the bottom that seals when manifold pressure rises and falls ... pretty slick setup and doesnt really do much until you put your foot in the pedal .. only uses 1/3 of a horsepower to turn , if i read it right ...

BUIZILLA
10-29-2007, 01:55 PM
there was a sneaky yellow 6.2 at the Laud show with a shiny polished screwrotor on top, Marine Power conversion, seller says it would make 525hp :eek!: however it hasn't been dynoed yet..... nor did it have coils, plugs, or plug wires, inboard reversed starter on it.... front of display, corner slot, front spectator door, main aisle, right next to SSM's booth... go figure...

LKSD
10-30-2007, 08:54 AM
Being that this thread is going a little bit all over the place speaking of boosted stuff.. I finally got my 26 done with, yes the whipple :yes:.. :D.. See, I am not to closed minded.. lol .. Different units for different applications is more my mentality. The whipple is performing well so far on my custom set up with the new late model 496. I just went the extra mile and had a larger heat exchanger made & auxillary oil cooler, etc, etc..

Now I just need to prop it out more.. :nilly::eek!:

2006 26zx 625hp sc 496mag ho (http://http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?p=428570#post428570)


So Jim, if I make it to FL one of these days are you game for a spin in the 26?? :)

:) Jamie / Lakeside

BUIZILLA
10-30-2007, 09:06 AM
:yes: :yes: :boat:

LKSD
10-30-2007, 09:30 AM
Cool.. :) J:boat:

smokediver
10-30-2007, 12:26 PM
[QUOTE=smokediver;428508]
I did not read the Hot Rod article but I have heard about some sort of Rotax blower that sounded similar. Is that it?
Sorry , wrong Mag ... Chevy High Performance Oct.2006 issue ... lots of info on the new magnuson supercharger ...

yeller
10-31-2007, 01:52 AM
Well seeing as George pulled this thread up out of the graveyard, I may as well re-ask a question. Is there anyone else out there now that can reprogram the ECU on a 496HO? Last time I checked around, the 2 places that said they could were Whipple and Tyler Crocket, but at close to $1000, I was hoping for more competition to lower the price. A grand for a few minutes to download a new program just seems too excessive to me.

zimm17
10-31-2007, 05:26 AM
Check with Mark Boos at Precision Marine. He's been doing my MEFI-3 ECU and is a great person to work with. I don't know if he can do 496HO's though. Work asking.

http://www.pmefi.com/
markb540@aol.com

The Hedgehog
10-31-2007, 08:42 AM
Well seeing as George pulled this thread up out of the graveyard, I may as well re-ask a question. Is there anyone else out there now that can reprogram the ECU on a 496HO? Last time I checked around, the 2 places that said they could were Whipple and Tyler Crocket, but at close to $1000, I was hoping for more competition to lower the price. A grand for a few minutes to download a new program just seems too excessive to me.

I will give Eddie Young a call. He has done a bunch of work with MEFI 3's and MEFI 4's. Not sure what else he has done. I think that we are going to a 4 on my setup. He says that it works great for blower motors with a 2 bar map sensor. Not sure what the 496 uses (PCM 555?)

I have used Mark Boos for doing my ECU setup on my Procharger. He did a great job.

LKSD
10-31-2007, 09:28 AM
Well seeing as George pulled this thread up out of the graveyard, I may as well re-ask a question. Is there anyone else out there now that can reprogram the ECU on a 496HO? Last time I checked around, the 2 places that said they could were Whipple and Tyler Crocket, but at close to $1000, I was hoping for more competition to lower the price. A grand for a few minutes to download a new program just seems too excessive to me.

Currently Dustin is the one doing the authorized flashing.. (we deal with him).. There may also be a few other places starting to pop up that will do it. I know where the stuff comes from for them to do it the right way & what it costs.. To be honest after they paid what they did to do the mototron stuff, I dont know how they are doing it as cheap as they are. Motorola/mototron's authorized stufff to fool with those ecms is some expensive stuff! :eek!:

Jamie / Lakeside

.

Rootsy
10-31-2007, 12:33 PM
Since I don't read Chevy Hi Perf or Hotrod or really any other rags such as that I have not seen the articles... I just know half of the Eaton testing services engineers in the supercharger group.

smokediver
10-31-2007, 02:40 PM
Since I don't read Chevy Hi Perf or Hotrod or really any other rags such as that I have not seen the articles... I just know half of the Eaton testing services engineers in the supercharger group.
hey , my cousin .. Tom Huelsman is an engineer for eaton .. electrical .. working on hybrid motors inside trans. housings .. wouldn't happen to know him would you ?

Donziweasel
10-31-2007, 03:07 PM
Funny, last year when I got my 16 and started inquiring about supercharging to compensate for altitude power loss, most of this board said don't do it. The general consensus was that this was the "easy" way out and instead build up my engine normally aspirated, which many of you know I did. It seemed that members thought very little of supercharging and that it was not a "real" way to increase hp. This was a year and a half ago. Since then it seems that supercharging, blowers, etc... have gained some momentum and are not considered as the "easy" way out, but a serious alternative for making ponies than building a normaly aspirated powerhouse. Seems some members have had great experiences building reliable high hp engines with bolt on power. Some of this is probably due to JW posting his work with superchargers. Seems the winds are starting to blow in a different direction.

BTW, the reason I did not supercharge is it would not fit in the bildge or under the hatch without serious mods. Might have done it if it would have fit.

The Hedgehog
10-31-2007, 04:50 PM
Funny, last year when I got my 16 and started inquiring about supercharging to compensate for altitude power loss, most of this board said don't do it. The general consensus was that this was the "easy" way out and instead build up my engine normally aspirated, which many of you know I did. It seemed that members thought very little of supercharging and that it was not a "real" way to increase hp. This was a year and a half ago. Since then it seems that supercharging, blowers, etc... have gained some momentum and are not considered as the "easy" way out, but a serious alternative for making ponies than building a normaly aspirated powerhouse. Seems some members have had great experiences building reliable high hp engines with bolt on power. Some of this is probably due to JW posting his work with superchargers. Seems the winds are starting to blow in a different direction.
BTW, the reason I did not supercharge is it would not fit in the bildge or under the hatch without serious mods. Might have done it if it would have fit.

I have over two years on a blown motor. I would think that it would be an especially good way to compensate for altitude. I don't know why anyone would have let you in a different direction. All of the top engine builders use them.

I am guessing that you have a v-8 in that 16. If so a procharger would be tough on the front clearance. I would guess that a whipple would work with some glass mods. Yes, I guess that you do have some predicament. Or maybe a challenge?

Donziweasel
10-31-2007, 06:05 PM
Big green, thanks for the input. I have been quietly reading your build and I must say I am impressed. Yeah, my 16 has a 350, now modified thanks to Buiz and Rootsy. Runs mid-50's with 21% of my ponies gone due to altitude. Blower wouldn't fit in front, clearance and top mounted would require a hood scoop, and I like the lines on my boat without one.

My next Donzi will be an 18 and I garauntee it will be blown, hopefully with JW's help. Last we spoke, he was concerned if he set it up, the setup would be off due to my altitude. Basically came down to fuel (rich vs. lean) and which pulley to use.

In my past dealings with JW, he was very honest on what he could and could not do. It would have been easy to just sell me the blower (was looking at the procharger with 3 psi) and help me along with the install like you did, but he was honest and said it wouldn't fit. Seems like a good guy when he walked away from a sale. I trust his knowledge of blowers and think he does a good job on setups for dumb folks like me.

90% of the responses a year and a half ago were don't supercharge. Now, I guess with more people running them with reliability, people are perhaps changing there minds. I will say that one of the most adamant about not supercharging back then now has blower ideas himself.

BTW, love the Ron Jeremy avatar. Maybe one day if we meet you will do me the honor of giving me a ride in your blown beast!:)

LKSD
10-31-2007, 06:30 PM
Thanks for your appreciation & vote of confidence with us.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

BTW: You can go for a ride in my Sc donzi if youre ever out this way.. Dont worry If my wife does make me get another bigger D I will probably boost that too.. :D :D Jamie

LKSD
10-31-2007, 06:36 PM
I will give Eddie Young a call. He has done a bunch of work with MEFI 3's and MEFI 4's. Not sure what else he has done. I think that we are going to a 4 on my setup. He says that it works great for blower motors with a 2 bar map sensor. Not sure what the 496 uses (PCM 555?)
I have used Mark Boos for doing my ECU setup on my Procharger. He did a great job.

Yes, Mark has done some good work with the ecms that I know of. As far as Eddie, I know of him but have no experiences with any of his work or clients that I recall..

Alot of this stuff is getting more & more specialized these days right down to individual performance aspects at times.. :) It is also more & more of a big pay to play sport these days with alot of it too on both the shops end & clients end. As many of you are already aware there are some good reasons & not so good reasons for it.. :yes:


Jamie / Lakeside

gcarter
10-31-2007, 08:18 PM
Opinions are like arm pits and I have them both....... but I STILL like things simple and would probably go the big inch route...427 for a SBC and at least 540 for a BBC.
Simple!:yes:

The Hedgehog
10-31-2007, 08:45 PM
Big green, thanks for the input. I have been quietly reading your build and I must say I am impressed. Yeah, my 16 has a 350, now modified thanks to Buiz and Rootsy. Runs mid-50's with 21% of my ponies gone due to altitude. Blower wouldn't fit in front, clearance and top mounted would require a hood scoop, and I like the lines on my boat without one.
My next Donzi will be an 18 and I garauntee it will be blown, hopefully with JW's help. Last we spoke, he was concerned if he set it up, the setup would be off due to my altitude. Basically came down to fuel (rich vs. lean) and which pulley to use.
In my past dealings with JW, he was very honest on what he could and could not do. It would have been easy to just sell me the blower (was looking at the procharger with 3 psi) and help me along with the install like you did, but he was honest and said it wouldn't fit. Seems like a good guy when he walked away from a sale. I trust his knowledge of blowers and think he does a good job on setups for dumb folks like me.
90% of the responses a year and a half ago were don't supercharge. Now, I guess with more people running them with reliability, people are perhaps changing there minds. I will say that one of the most adamant about not supercharging back then now has blower ideas himself.
BTW, love the Ron Jeremy avatar. Maybe one day if we meet you will do me the honor of giving me a ride in your blown beast!:)

Well it sounds like you are well advised. Those guys seem to know their stuff.

I don't blame you for not wanting to disturb those lines. If you have to do it there are some nice Shelby-like scoops. I have a decent scoop on my x-18. I will send you a couple of pics.

Stay tuned for more high boost from the Tn. Going to be cranking 10 -12 lbs soon.

The Hedgehog
10-31-2007, 08:47 PM
Opinions are like arm pits and I have them both....... but I STILL like things simple and would probably go the big inch route...427 for a SBC and at least 540 for a BBC.
Simple!:yes:

And a blown 540 is even better!

The Hedgehog
10-31-2007, 09:03 PM
Yes, Mark has done some good work with the ecms that I know of. As far as Eddie, I know of him but have no experiences with any of his work or clients that I recall..
Alot of this stuff is getting more & more specialized these days right down to individual performance aspects at times.. :) It is also more & more of a big pay to play sport these days with alot of it too on both the shops end & clients end. As many of you are already aware there are some good reasons & not so good reasons for it.. :yes:
Jamie / Lakeside

Eddie is a stand up guy. I respect his advice as I do yours. He was the brains behind TMP before Katrina. He has built some serious motors. I have seen two of his 1,000 hp motors that is is the process of making 300 hours without even any head work. Eddie is teaching me a bunch as I go through this process and I am learning that you have to pay if you want to play.

Donziweasel
11-01-2007, 06:54 AM
I don't mind the Shelby scoops. My problem was that I have less than an inch clearance between the hatch and the flame arrester. The scoop would have been obnoxiously large to accomodate a Whipple.

I also have about a half an inch between my pulleys on the front of the engine and the bulkhead, so a procharger was out.

I spent a few weeks redoing the top end of my engine this summer and I can tell you a 16 bildge with an 8 is tiny.

BigGrizzly
11-01-2007, 09:56 AM
Some won't agree but a carb in a box is -to a point altitude self compensating.
Since the carb is under constant pressure, most id not all the time. It is easier to dial in unless an injected engine has a constant O2 sensor. Mototron is great stuff, we were working with it in testing before it was released. I myself didn't work with it but did see the results first hand. It is state of the art compared to the merc stuff. I am suprised you don't have room for a super. I for one would not do a 16 with one. I would go your route. As for durability. Set up and use is the KEY. I have 6 years and approximately 800 hours on mine. It isn't the fastest, but sure is nice, and my wife likes it!!!

The Hedgehog
11-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Well seeing as George pulled this thread up out of the graveyard, I may as well re-ask a question. Is there anyone else out there now that can reprogram the ECU on a 496HO? Last time I checked around, the 2 places that said they could were Whipple and Tyler Crocket, but at close to $1000, I was hoping for more competition to lower the price. A grand for a few minutes to download a new program just seems too excessive to me.

I checked with Eddie. He only does MEFI 1-4's. He uses 4's on all his motors. I am going to that with a 2 bar map sensor.

Does Dustin do it or provide a MEFI4 and harness like he did for a while with the 525?

yeller
11-01-2007, 08:05 PM
BGZX, thanks for checking for me. I found several places that'll piggyback a delphi unit to take over the fuel and timing, but I'd prefer to reprogram instead.
Maybe I'm wrong, but when I was doing searches on Whipple last year, there seemed to be a lot of people that weren't too happy with their service.
I'll have to give Crocket a call and if he does actually reprogram and not piggyback the delphi, I guess I'll send it there.



I spent a few weeks redoing the top end of my engine this summer and I can tell you a 16 bildge with an 8 is tiny.I didn't realize how tight an 8 is in a 16 until I saw Vertigo's 16 at Powell last year. :eek!: Tight is an understatement.
My 16 had a jet, so the motor sat much lower and this free'd up a lot of space.