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Ranman
03-23-2006, 12:40 PM
I may not win a popularity contest with everyone on this, but the more I read and think about the subject, the more I believe the answer is "yes".

To those out there who continue to think purchasing import vehicles is of no consequence to us as a country, WAKE UP!. This is the easiest sacrifice (if you even call it that) you can make to help support your country and our high standard of living. The writing is on the wall folks. We all need to get with the program and support our domestic corporations and industries. Those who do not (and I consider an automobile one the biggest purchases that has a direct effect) are quickly becoming less popular and should be looked at as having a wanton disregard for our best interests.

I hope that one day the American perception of import car buyers changes much the same way the perception of the cigarette smoker has changed. Today's smokers are now outcasts, negativly looked down upon, huddled outside of buildings and all but banned from polluting the rest of the public. Why? Because we understand the implications of second hand smoke and the rest of the sane public doesn't want to be subjected to the carcinogens that cause decay in the quality of life. When will we wake up and apply this principal to another area of similar consequence?

Is It Unpatriotic to Not Buy American Cars?
By Roger Simmermaker
Special to FCN Online

As I sat in an Orlando studio on Jan. 24 waiting to be interviewed on Fox News' "Hannity and Colmes" for the first time, that seemed to be the question I was going to be asked to answer if the introductory comments were any indication. In the studio in New York was Malcolm Bricklin, founder and CEO of Visionary Vehicles, who plans on importing cars from China by 2007. Ford had just announced plans to lay off 30,000 workers, and since even Mr. Bricklin (to his credit) says he doesn't want to see so many Americans join the ranks of the unemployed, it was a good question to ask. But the show started with asking Mr. Bricklin a different question and by the time the cameras pointed to me, I was given a different question as well, so I never really got to answer it.
But as I continue to think about it since that interview, the answer I would have given to Sean Hannity is the same as my answer today: If it's unpatriotic to destroy the American middle class, then it's unpatriotic to not buy American cars. As a country, we're drowning in a sea of red ink, and as consumers (those who really should know better, anyway) we're drowning is a sea of "what's in it for me."

Since President Bush has all but ruled out any government help for either Ford or GM saying they have to make a product that is "relevant" (did you know Mr. Bush himself owns a Ford pickup truck?) it's up to the American consumer to realize that a bankruptcy for Ford or GM or both is definitely not in the national interest. Not only would hundreds of thousands of workers lose their jobs, but about 450,000 retirees would be de-funded. These retirees on fixed incomes would see smaller pensions and reduced medical benefits. The workers that remained would see massive cuts in benefits as well.

Big deal, you say? At least American companies still offer their workers pensions. According to a recent article in The Tennessean, Nissan North America new hires won't be able to count on a company pension when they retire. And if you work for Nissan and didn't happen to reach the age of 65 by the end of last year, you won't be participating in the company-sponsored medical plan either.

If American companies can't remain successful and shoulder the burden of health care for their workers, the rest of us will likely pick up the tab in the form of higher taxes through expanded entitlement programs, which are already growing at a rate of 8 percent a year.

84% of all federal spending of our tax dollars already goes towards the "big three" untouchables: interest on the national debt, national defense (including homeland security) and entitlements such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. So much for conservatives who wish for smaller government. Generally speaking, few of us want to invite more government intrusion into our lives. But a significantly smaller government these days would result in benefit cuts that would ultimately affect all of us. The days of those who want tax cuts because it means more money in their pockets and means benefit cuts only for someone else are over.

So what's your reason for not buying American cars and trucks? I've heard (and disproved) them all but I'll list a few of the more popular ones here.

1. Quality. According to the latest J.D. Power & Associates Long-term Dependability Survey, Lincoln, Buick and Cadillac all made the top five for 2005. Lexus was number one and number two was mysteriously not reported by the CNN story highlighting the survey. What's even better (if you are a fan of American automakers) is that the average dependability of all GM and Ford models combined was greater than the average dependability for all the Japanese models combined.

2. Too much emphasis on "gas guzzlers." The hypocrisy in this statement is rampant since most people who make it are ardent supporters of the "free market." The trouble for these hypocrites is that a major free market principle is the law of supply and demand. According to Seattle Times columnist Shaunti Feldhahn, consumer demand for big, bad SUVs has doubled in the last 15 years. So much for the argument that American car companies aren't building what consumers want to buy. Just like American companies have been scrambling to satisfy the one percent of car buyers who want hybrids, Japanese car makers have been scrambling to catch up to Ford and GM by offering bigger and badder behemoths (at even worse gas mileage ratings than American SUVs). GM has more models with over 30 mpg. highway (2006 EPA estimates) than any other auto maker. Last month I revealed that my 1996 Lincoln Town Car now has over 160,000 miles with no signs of letting up. What I didn't mention is that my car has averaged 24 mpg since September 2001, which is a result of combined mostly highway driving during the week and mostly city driving on weekends. Not bad for a big luxury car.

3. Foreign car companies will pick up the slack. This argument implies that the hiring of American workers by foreign companies would never take place if there weren't layoffs by American companies first. Even if you view foreign investment as a good thing -- which it isn't -- foreign companies will still invest in America even if we support American companies so they can actually retain our own workers. This argument is almost as bad as the one that implies we need to destroy American manufacturing jobs in general so we can move American workers into high-tech jobs. Why not let the college graduates strapped with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans and other debts take these jobs, and protect American workers in the jobs they choose to have now?

4. American companies can do better. Better at what? What will it take for more American people to root for the home team again? Do you only root for your hometown sports team when they are winning, or do you root for them even when they are down -- no matter what? Let's see. American companies GM and Ford have won numerous quality awards, they have more domestic plants, employ more American workers, support more retirees along with their dependants and families, pay better wages than the non-union foreign-owned plants, have a higher percentage of domestic parts in their automobiles, pay more taxes to the U.S. Treasury, give more to charities for the benefit of this country, and donate more in the wake of disasters like 9-11. Need I go on?

5. GM and Ford need to make cars Americans want to buy. I saved this one for last since it the most ridiculous statement of all. General Motors has the highest market share of any automobile company. To say the company that currently sells more cars and trucks to more people than any other company in the industry -- even if that market share is falling -- is truly ridiculous. Yes, I know Toyota is gaining on GM and may overtake them this year (in worldwide market share -- not U.S. market share -- where GM has roughly twice the market share of Toyota) and GM used to command around 50 percent of the domestic market. But let's be reasonable, shall we? What company in any industry in today's super-competitive economy can command 50 percent of their market? Not even Coke or Pepsi can do that. Which reminds me -- Pepsi recently passed Coke to take the top spot in the beverage wars. Is Coke number two now because they aren't making beverages Americans want to drink? I haven't heard that one yet. Only in America and only in the automobile industry could number two be declared a loser brand. And only if it's GM, not Toyota.

The struggle for GM and Ford to regain much needed and much deserved traction has increasingly become a media war. And it's not just a media war as I reported in my September 2005 article titled Media Bias Against American Automakers. The bias towards foreign automakers has extended from journalists and other newsmakers to everyday Americans with vendettas against their home-team companies in the form of letters to the editor and blogs on the Internet. The Wall Street Journal recently ran a story titled "Are Rumours Hurting Sales" reporting on a Los Angeles resident who started a Web log called "GM Can Do Better." It's not that this individual has not heard the reports of numerous quality awards bestowed upon American automakers. It's that he's skeptical the reports are true.

So there you have it. Foreign car lovers will believe it if Toyota wins an award. But if General Motors' Chevy Impala is documented to have fewer customer complaints than the Toyota Camry, foreign car lovers will grasp at different false reasons to justify their foreign purchases. But the facts are in and their arguments no longer hold water. I'd almost be willing to bet these American car bashers haven't test-driven an American car in years. Right now it doesn't matter that GM has 82 major plants in America and Ford has 35. What matters is that Toyota, Honda and Nissan have eight plants each. It doesn't matter that Toyota and Honda average 65 to 75 percent domestic parts in their U.S. built cars while GM and Ford average 80% to 85%. If these percentages ever reverse, then it will matter to foreign car lovers. Facts simply don't matter to them when they don't happen to be in their favor. To them, as Business Week reported Dec. 12, 2005, "the economy is unstoppable as the Indianapolis Colts" and foreign purchases have no national negative effect. If you watched the Super Bowl last Sunday you probably noticed that the Indianapolis Colts weren't playing.

I'm sure that this article will not sit well with those who automatically receive it as part of their free "Buy American Mention of the Week" subscription and advocate the demise of GM and Ford. And I'm also sure I'll receive many "unsubscribe" requests as a result. But I don't really care. I don't like writing for people I don't like any more than I like giving speeches to groups I don't like. These articles are not designed to make anyone feel less of an American for their past foreign purchases, but rather they aim to persuade American consumers to make the right purchases in the future.

Those who do agree with the facts and the opinions I have presented, I urge you to forward or distribute my auto industry articles to fellow Americans that need to see them. Simply visit www.overthehillcarpeople.com to see the auto industry articles I've written since May 2005. I'm not sure how much time GM and Ford have left to turn things around given the obstacles they must overcome that have been put there for bogus and unpatriotic reasons. And remember, the next time someone accuses you of questioning their patriotism because of their foreign car, tell them that if it's not unpatriotic to destroy the American middle class, then it's not unpatriotic to buy foreign cars!

Roger Simmermaker, author of How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism, published this article on his Web site, www.howtobuyamerican.com.

Carl C
03-23-2006, 12:58 PM
Yes, buy American cars. They are better quality and a better value. If a Chevy Corvette were made in Italy it would probably cost $200,000 and people would pay it for the prestige. But this is a free country and if Chromegorilla wants to brag about his new Volkswagon here then I will not rag on him for it. I will always buy American cars. I now have 2 Mustang GTs and 2 Ford Pick-ups.:convertib :)

Formula Jr
03-23-2006, 01:56 PM
Chevy Aveo.

Engine : Australia
Frame/Assembly: Korea
Transmission: Japan
Suspension Design: England
Styling Design: Italy

Pismo
03-23-2006, 02:13 PM
It is simple competition, the best run companies with the best products will do the best. It's not like Microsoft, in the car business there are so many choices it will always be a tough, very competitve business. I think only the airlines have it tougher.

onesubdrvr
03-23-2006, 02:21 PM
I buy American, but that is now that I can afford it, and need a full size car.

I read an article the other day (as I was waiting for tires to get put on my American SUV), about this very topic. One thing it mentioned was the downfall era of the american car - the fuel crisis, the muscle car going by the wayside / etc. He (the author) mentioned a car show he was at in the late 70's, where the GM booth had "actors" dressed up as car parts and singing and dancing, while VW's booth had intricate cut-aways of a complete car. The tone of the paragraph was that that was the start of when the US manufacturers became a laughing stock. Some of his points I agreed with.

Until recently, the ENTRY level cars from Chevy, Ford, etc. were not asthetically pleasing to ME. I never cared for the Cavalier, or Escort. As a young man in the military, the only cars I could afford were "entry" level cars. And honestly purchased a car that I liked the looks of, could afford, and was reliable.

Also, I have seen the quality of American cars get much better in the past 10 years or so, but, unfortunately, there is a mind set (once again, refering to entry level cars), that a Toyota Corolla will far out last a Chevy Cavalier (for example).

Also, during this time, Ford / GM / etc. concentrated many of their efforts on their truck lines, while this produced a higher quality pick-up truck, it cause the rest of the lines to slip.

I think that American car makers are on the rebound, but the manufacturers need to try to plan for the future with their new lines / technologies / etc. So that they stop slipping, and regain the American market share.

Ranman
03-23-2006, 03:17 PM
Chevy Aveo.
Engine : Australia
Frame/Assembly: Korea
Transmission: Japan
Suspension Design: England
Styling Design: Italy


I agree that cars are more global than ever before. Let's limit the discussion to North America product as that's where we live and where our economy exists and functions. Would you agree that domestic car manufacturers have on the aggregate more domestic content than import manufacturers?

Q: Where ultimatly does the money from your Aveo go?
A: To an American based company.

To me, regardless of all the other BS. This is good for us as Americans or should I say at least better than the alternative.

Why are we so hell bent on not helping ourselves? This is such a no brainer and we as a society continually shoot ourselves in the foot. Look at where we are now... No other Nation I know of is so disconnected when it comes to National "loyalty". We as Americans need to put ourselves first.

Is it Chrome's right to by a VW. Yes it is. It's my opinion though, that he made a mistake and has in a small but significant way participatedl in continuing to erode my (an his) quality of life in this country.

Ranman
03-23-2006, 03:20 PM
It is simple competition, the best run companies with the best products will do the best. It's not like Microsoft, in the car business there are so many choices it will always be a tough, very competitve business. I think only the airlines have it tougher.

Forget this whole whoever's best competition thing and help a brutha out. What's really important is that we as Americans band together and support and boost each other Your hurting yourself if you don't. Period.

Woodsy
03-23-2006, 03:32 PM
Randy,

The profit might have gone to an American Company, but the cost of manufacture didn’t. The cost to manufacture went to Korea, Japan, Mexico etc… It used to be that the cost of manufacture went to Americans, as well as the profits. This is where American Business goes wrong! GM is publicly traded and thus has to do everthing possible to show a profit to the shareholders.

I don't the trouble is just in the automotive sector, although it is a pretty good bellwether of things to come.

I include myself in this rant...

We as Americans have come to believe that WE DESERVE! Deserve what, you ask? EVERYTHING! We deserve affordable SUV's and we deserve cheap gas prices to run them on! We deserve cheap air fare to go visit Aunt Flo, we deserve high wages, we deserve better health care, we deserve better retirement plans, we deserve better interest rates, we deserve better welfare benefits.... you get the picture!

All of these things cost a company huge money… especially when you get into health care and retirement demands. The best thing that could happen to GM and Ford is bankruptcy and a cancellation of all union contracts. GM and Ford need to go on a crash diet, and the results will not be pretty. They are bloated with middle management and excessive manufacturing capacity. The vehicles they build are overpriced. What average American can afford a $35,000+ truck? Hell, the new Mustang GT is $25,000. With a 10% down payment and a 5 year loan your payment is about approximately $440.00. That’s before gas & insurance!

We (as Americans) have consistently gone out of our way to be non-competitive. There was a time and a place for unions, but now they just add undo cost to the manufacture of a product. When a guy can get $25.00/hr + huge benefits to attach lug nuts to a car and his counterpart in Mexico only gets $7.00US why on earth would a company want to pay $25.00/hr+? The unions are pretty powerful, both politically and financially, so the companies bow to them and the politicians court them.

Woodsy

ChromeGorilla
03-23-2006, 03:59 PM
Hey, I split the difference....... US truck and a German car....... but my boat was built in the USA.... so 2 for 3..... hell if I was in the big leagues I'd be the man with a .666 average.....:yes: ;)

ChromeGorilla
03-23-2006, 04:00 PM
Hey Ranman.... what kind of televisions are in your house? :biggrin:

Bob
03-23-2006, 04:19 PM
I have been looking for a new car for several months and this has crossed my mind often.

First, its tough to separate American vs Foreign in many cases. My Dad just bought a Ford Freestyle- a car that is largely based on Volvo technology. (Ford bought Volvo in the 90's I believe). Is it American or Foreign?

The Toyota Avalon I drove last week was made in Kentucky, so how is buying a Japanese car hurting the American workers that built it?

The crux of the issue is how the UAW has paralyzed Ford and GM with legacy health costs and an overpaid work force. I look at it that foreign labor isn't underpayed but rather lots of American labor is overpaid.

Quality being equal, labor will always go to the low bidder. Whether your a painter, a cook, a mechanic or a hooker. This happens on a global basis.


Please spare me from the "it helps save American jobs" argument. If somebody is willing to do your job for half what you make and produce the same quality work- then you are overpaid. Get over it, square your shoulders and find something else to do.

If you want the Unions to help you out, then you have already given up your independence and your destiny is in the hands of others. Hopefully you chose well.

BTW, the only foreign vehicle I own is my lawnmower.

Carl C
03-23-2006, 05:01 PM
Hey Ranman.... what kind of televisions are in your house? :biggrin: Scott, we have lost the electronics market, even my microsoft X-Box was made in hungary. We lost cameras and clothing also. Even a lot of lumber and steel is imported now. If we lose the auto industry we (the USA) are in trouble. This is not a case where domestic products are inferior or more costly. Someone chooses to buy a Ford or a Toyota. It's a free country so enjoy your new VW and I hope it goes well for you but it would have helped us out had you chosen a chevy or Ford.

gold-n-rod
03-23-2006, 06:00 PM
Hmm.

Here's my current fleet:

2004 Buick Rainier
2001 GMC Sierra
2000 Toyota Tacoma
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
1986 Ford Escort

So, I have 4 Domestics and 1 import, right?

Guess again, Bunkie.

2004 Buick Rainier, Made in Dayton, OH
2001 GMC Sierra, made in Ontario, Canada
2000 Toyota Tacoma, made in Fremont, California
1995 Pontiac Trans Am, Made in Quebec, Canada
1986 Ford Escort, made in Canada (forget exactly where).

So, I have 1 Domestic and 4 imports! :fire:

Go figure.:confused:

dfunde01
03-23-2006, 06:10 PM
A recent Business Week article pointed out several things:

*More cars are assembled in the US today than ever before by American workers, just not in GM, Ford or Chrysler plants.

*Chrysler is now German owned.

*The auto industry is becoming more efficient world wide. Many biggies like Fiat are in the same shape as GM and Ford. GM, Ford and Chrysler must adapt to new ways of doing business or perish.

Nobody ever gives me any grief about my suburban, except the tree hugger wacko's, and it was built in Mexico.
If we hide in our shell we will become a thrid world economy in an amazingly short time. To maintain our standard of living we have to out perform the rest of the world. And that requires change. Sorry guys but$75.00 an hour loaded cost to work on an assembly line is not supportable in today's economy.

tiger lily
03-23-2006, 06:58 PM
i like my f350 superduty, crew cab long box Diesel, with a lift kit and 35" BFG M/T,, i dont think i could ever buy a toyota taco or tundra, or anyother foriegn car, ive owned alot of Ford trucks, and never been let down by one, i run them hard to, they get worked! only car i ever owned was a 94 firebird formula, which was a nice car..

Schnook
03-23-2006, 08:15 PM
The domestic auto manufacturers squandered their reputations in the 70's and 80's maximizing profits while letting quality go down the tubes, and it's wrong to now cry foul because they're not trusted. Yes, they are doing a better job, but it takes a lot longer to build trust than to lose it, and even longer to rebuild it. Here we have a free market, and if American companies are to be successful once again, they will have to compete. ChromeGorilla bought a foreign make. Ask yourself,"Why is this wrong"? Is he at fault for doing it, or the auto makers' for not producing a product he would have chosen? I do hope U.S. industry re-asserts their dominance in the world market, it will be a long, difficult road, but the alternative is not pretty.
My fleet;
Cadillac SRX
Toyota Tundra
Jeep Wrangler
Radio Flyer :biggrin.:

Looped
03-23-2006, 08:22 PM
If GM & Ford want to stay in the game, then they need to get ride of all of their body styling designers and start from scratch. For the past 5 or so years they have been coming out with models that look like they were designed by a High School student. By no means do I want to see either of these manufactures go under, but they seem to be killing themselves.

Craig
The "other" Manufacturer Rep.

ChromeGorilla
03-23-2006, 08:40 PM
I woulda bought a domestic if it had anywhere near the handling, power, features and slick tranny for the same $$$$. The new VW impressed me alot. I don't get the same feeling riding in a Pontiac G6 or Grand Prix or even a Chevy Malibu or Impalla...... Fit and finish on the car is waaaaayyyyy better than any domestic for the same $$$$. There are some very nice domestic vehichles out there... but they sure do cost..... which brings us back to Ranmans original point of forking over a little extra for a domestic....

DonziDave
03-23-2006, 08:53 PM
Schnook has it right...!!! This country was built on capitalism and a free market economy. The marketplace sets the price/quality ratio and the consumer will buy the product that provides them with the highest quality at the lowest price. Compete or die...!!! The US auto industry will have evolve or they are doomed. The first thing they need to do is get rid of the unions...but that's a whole other subject.

As for the generational thing, my father was a SeaBee in WWII. He always said about the Japanese, "Those bastards tried to kill me for 4 years, now they want to sell me a car..!!" :biggrin:

goatee
03-24-2006, 12:02 AM
this may be a little off topic but,,i am looking into purcasing a truck and need to sell my jeep.
someone , somewhere, was asking about what (if any) other threads should be added to the forum, and i suggested a "tow vehicle for sale". since we all need them.... why not? but it never materialized.

so,,,04' grand cherokee special edition
heated leather seats
all wheel drive
power everything ,,sunroof/moonroof
cd in dash, 10 cd in trunk
stereo cntrls in steering wheel
well cared for, oil changes every 3k miles. (can prove it too)
just turned 31k miles

nearest i can come to that online (year/miles) is a limited edition selling for 20k
i am asking 19k o.b.o. but if your a donzi fan,,,18k

as for the topic at hand?
i have only owned 1 import in my life. it was my first car and all i could afford
a 76' vw (i am not going to spell this right) scheroco

goatee
03-24-2006, 12:06 AM
forgot,,class III draw tite hitch i installed last summer.
hitch and truck are both rated to pull 5k lbs.

mrfixxall
03-24-2006, 12:16 AM
Buy america OR say bye to america,,the only good thing that come's from foreign car's are BMW and the jobs they provide....

Carl C
03-24-2006, 09:36 AM
Matty, good for your mom! Schnook, the auto industry was forced to reinvent the car in the 70s-80s due to new government regulations. Looped, gotta disagree! The new Corvette, Mustang, The Chevy convertible truck (forgot what it's called), The new caddys, the Hummer are all lookers and there are more.

LGMAZ
03-24-2006, 09:46 AM
The Globalization issue cannot be understated. Chrysler is German, but some Mercedes are assembled here, and some Chryslers (ie the Crossfire) are assembled there. Ford owns Volvo, Jaguar and Ausitn Martin Land Rover and 33% of Mazda . It also assembles F-150's in Canada. GM owns Saab, Vauxhall, 20% of Suzuki and 42% of Daewoo and part of Subaru. Geo's were re-badged Toyotas and Suzukis. VW owns Lamborghini, and Bently..but not Rolls Royce... BMW does. Fiat owns Ferrari, and Alfa..if they're still in business. No one really knows what Renault owns, or if they're owned by someone else. Any or all of this may have changed in the last 5 minutes. Confusing? That's just the tip of the iceberg. I wont even get into parts suppliers or distributers. The bottom line is this: Ignore the propaganda (It's just advertising), buy the car or truck that best suits your needs and enjoy it.

Ranman
03-24-2006, 10:35 AM
Hey Ranman.... what kind of televisions are in your house? :biggrin:

If I had the option to buy an American manufactured TV, I would. Unfortunatly, there aren't many available.

Additionally, a TV, barely registers with me as a significant purchase @ $1000 give or take. My car was $40K and only second to my house which was hand built on-site in the USA! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Bottom line is regardless of all of this BS about unions, labor, competition, etc, wtc, etc. Purchasing an American badged car is better for us as Americans than purchasing an import.

Will someone explain to me how, on the aggregate (not one model here or assembly plant there) buying a vehicle from an import manufacturer is better for us as Americans than buying one from an American based manufacturer.

Formula Jr
03-24-2006, 10:40 AM
Depends on if you are a stock shareholder......


.....now if I bought a new Norton Motorcycle........

Ranman
03-24-2006, 10:44 AM
Hmm.
Here's my current fleet:
2004 Buick Rainier
2001 GMC Sierra
2000 Toyota Tacoma
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
1986 Ford Escort
So, I have 4 Domestics and 1 import, right?
Guess again, Bunkie.
2004 Buick Rainier, Made in Dayton, OH
2001 GMC Sierra, made in Ontario, Canada
2000 Toyota Tacoma, made in Fremont, California
1995 Pontiac Trans Am, Made in Quebec, Canada
1986 Ford Escort, made in Canada (forget exactly where).
So, I have 1 Domestic and 4 imports! :fire:
Go figure.:confused:

No. GM and Ford (American based companies) employ more US workers, have higher domestic content, and support more domestic siuppliers ON the AGGREGATE than the Import manufacturers. Period. Congrats on the Buic, Pontiac, GMC and Ford.

Yes. You helped a few assembly line workers on the Tacoma, but could have done better.

This is another example of where the import companies are clouding our judgement. They have duped us into beleiving that if you assemble a car in the US it must be American. Not!

Again, explain to me how on the aggregate a Toyota or Nissan is better for us on the whole than an American based purchase...

Ranman
03-24-2006, 10:55 AM
The domestic auto manufacturers squandered their reputations in the 70's and 80's maximizing profits while letting quality go down the tubes, and it's wrong to now cry foul because they're not trusted. Yes, they are doing a better job, but it takes a lot longer to build trust than to lose it, and even longer to rebuild it. Here we have a free market, and if American companies are to be successful once again, they will have to compete. ChromeGorilla bought a foreign make. Ask yourself,"Why is this wrong"? Is he at fault for doing it, or the auto makers' for not producing a product he would have chosen? I do hope U.S. industry re-asserts their dominance in the world market, it will be a long, difficult road, but the alternative is not pretty.
My fleet;
Cadillac SRX
Toyota Tundra
Jeep Wrangler
Radio Flyer :biggrin.:

The American Autos need to step up. I'm not arguing that. The unions need to be addressed, I'm not arguing that. Yes, there is a ton of globalization that is tough to sort through.

I am contending that on average a purchase through an American based manufacturer results in more pennies on the dollar back to Americans and through our own economy than an equivalent import based purchase.

It is well documented that today American offerings are as well built and at or above the quality standards of their competitors. The 70's and 80's are loooong gone.

All I'm hearing are excuses and justifications as to why it's OK to buy an import based car. What is the rationale? how does doing this HELP us and our own society?

We as consumers need to do our part in supporting our neighbors! Yes there are other issues. Many of them, but WE can do something on our end to help and instead too many people just bitch bitch bitch about it and come up with excuses as to why they shouldn't bear the burden or why it's not their responsibility. What will it take for us to wake up and help us help ourselves?

How is buying an American based car going to hurt you? It helps us all!

Woodsy
03-24-2006, 11:26 AM
Randy...

It's a pretty simple concept really...

GM, Ford and Toyota etc are all publicly traded companies. None of these companies make a profit per se, as the profit is distributed among the shareholders. (The shareholders are from all over the world, so its not like the profit stays in America) The Board of Directors has to answer to the shareholders, and the shareholders want thier stock to go up in value and pay a dividend. If the stock drops (or plummets in this case) then companys credit rating takes a hit, so now it costs more to borrow the money needed to fund operations. This then drives the stock even lower, starting a vicious spiral into bankruptcy. Once a company starts to flush down the toilet, its really hard to stop the process unless DRASTIC measures are taken.

So now we have GM & Ford really struggling. The downward spiral has begun. They have more manufacturing capacity than they have demand for product. The costs to manufacture product in the USA are unsustainable. In order to increase the profit margin on thier product as thier shareholders demand, GM & Ford have have outsourced almost 70% of every car they produce. Because manufacturing costs are lower in Mexico, or Canada, or Japan or wherever, as much is possible (read permittable by US law) is produced or assembled elsewhere. This lowers costs and allows an increased profit. Unfortunately for GM & Ford this isn't enough. The first plants to close and layoff employees are those that are the most expensive to operate. The first to go will be American plants, whose labor costs are astronomical!

PS: The only reason all of the foriegn companies have US plants is because of import tariffs... they would rather manufacture someplace else as well.

Woodsy

Rootsy
03-24-2006, 11:41 AM
Fact is i need a new vehicle... i have a 98 F150 and a 93 Ranger 4 banger... the both have 200K miles on them... and to be honest... neither has given me any "major" trouble other than the tranny in the F150... but then again maintenance and mechanical upkeep are like clockwork... so for quality... i won't bitch... If i could just go buy a new truck right now i'd probably be visiting my local chevy or GMC dealer right now... fact is i need a truck.. i have boats to tow and wood to move and once in a while tractors to move around and stuff... foreign manufacturers dont make anything comparable to handle what i need to do... and if they did i probably still wouldn't buy it... BUT unless you have a helluva lot of disposable income which apparently a lot of folks do these days, or you run a business... you can't hardly afford a new 3/4 ton diesel... even at bare bones it costs more than MOST people bring home in a year...

In todays society i feel that our generation has lost the whole patriotic theme... people feel "entitled" they treat everything as disposable... lease a car 2 years get a new one... people on a whole are spoiled in great numbers and are caught up in too much visual competition... they want the best but they don't want to pay a damned thing for it.. they want to make a lot but don't want to have to work for it... guess they think everything should come easy to them or should grow on trees...so you have companies saying, ok we'll just invest in automation, ship it overseas, make a quality product with cheap labor and give these people "decent" cheap widgets... and keep our small white collar workforce here which costs us much more.. we'll make up for it by paying 25 cents and hour to wang chang wabinati... and still make a decent profit for our shareholders so their stocks improve and we have capital to reinvest... its a big roundy round cycle and a double edged sword...

so people as a whole really don't care about american vs japanese vs korean vs chinese as long as they get what they want, as cheap as they can get it with as long a warranty as possible and all the bells whistles and gadgets... it's a different generation and demographic... since the 60's people have been very desensitized toward nationalism and been fed more liberal globalism.

and you have to remember... your successes will be forgotten about tomorrow but your failures will be remembered for years... and for some reason a lot of people i know have this mindset that foreign carmakers are better than domestics... from issues happening years ago... or today (gee look at the 6 litre powerstroke eh)... not to mention... the big 2 are still stuck on the 3 year / 36000 mile thing when you can go buy a little korean econobox that is 10 year / 100000 mile... what does that say to someone...

and yes... a whole crapload of stylists in detroit need to be ****canned... whoever decided to make the front of a silverado look like an aztec needs to have a royal ass beating by a bunch of the brothers down in the hood...

Schnook
03-24-2006, 12:23 PM
On NPR the other day, I heard a report about a family in Michigan that both the father and son worked at an auto plant. The father is a janitor, and was about to be layed off. He was distraught because he didn't know how he was going to pay for the Winnebago he had purchased last year to eventually travel the country when he retired. Now I'm all for anyone making all the money they can doing whatever, but I work hard for what I earn, and I have trouble feeling sympathy, or a sense of obligation to buy, so a broom pusher can have his RV. I love America, and being American, but the bottom line is the light at the end of the tunnel is a train called globalization, and like it or not it's coming, so we (Americans, industry, whoever) can either get on board or get run over.
And yes, a whole crapload of stylists in Detroit need to be ****canned.

MOP
03-24-2006, 12:34 PM
I have a close friend that is a Dodge dealer, he does extremely well and has been invited to Detroit a few times. He feeling is it is the plant workers and the unions that protect them that are killing our auto industry. Look under any new car and notice the colored stick ons by every major componant (he lifted one up to show me) he says most of the assembly line men are stoned out of their gordes they need visual aides to see where stuff goes! QC carries the brunt of making sure these AH's have screwed the darn thing together right. His shop guys check all his stuff as best they can, he says the QC boys do miss a fair bit. He says the line guys make a really good buck and have great bene's, many of them do not deserve to have the job or bene's. Next time you are at a dealership look under the car for the pretty colored stickers.

LGMAZ
03-24-2006, 01:35 PM
Patriotism is not the issue. Patriotism and nationalism are a love of Country, not the love of a publicly traded corporation. What really clogs my hoover is when a company uses patriotism as a means to their own end. They use it as an advertising gimmick. Sombody like GM produces an inferior product, drapes it in the Flag, and then accuses me of being some sort of pinko because I don't buy it. They blame NAFTA and cheap labor in third world countries. They assemble Nikes in Bengladash, not Hondas. Last time I checked, Germany, Sweden, Japan and Great Britan were all sitting in the first world with us. Gasp... they build VW's in Mexico! Yea? A Chevrolet Equinox has an engine made in China, and final assembly is in Canada. Before you flip off that Mazda owner at the next stoplight, remember, a Mazda6 is assembled in Flat Rock, MI with the Mustang by UAW workers. How's that for apple pie?
I'm a small businessman and operate in the most American of systems, Capitalism. If I can't compete, I'm gone, period. I must adapt, improve, cut costs, but most importantly, I'd better damn well be selling what people are buying. As the old Chrysler ads said, "Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way!"

Ranman
03-24-2006, 02:01 PM
Good discussion everybody. I'm glad I've not yet seen one of these :kaioken: directed toward anyone.

Woodsy, I miss the rum runners in the pool at the Sarasota Hyatt.

I'm planning to continue expressing my opinions regarding some of the responses here as I get the chance.

I'd like to ask my question again:

Is anyone able to provide a compelling argument that buying an import manufacturer vehicle is better for the economy and ultimately the citizens of the United States versus an American manufacturer based vehicle?

Formula Jr
03-24-2006, 02:34 PM
Why is it we are blaming some poor sod that makes things?
Instead of decapitating them, what about decapitating the idiots
in upper managment?
The premise of the first question was, "is it unpatriotic to buy a non-domestic car." No, it isn't, if its a better value and how do you value innovation? And with full health care and six week vacations, I applaud the third biggest economy in the world coming from a place the size of one of our states.

The question is flawed. Did the Steel in that domestic car get created here?
How far back do you go.....

Corps. make profits and hold no allegence to any nation state.
It has nothing to do with patriotism if you buy a German car.
Go see "Why we fight." It says something all around.

Formula Jr
03-24-2006, 03:18 PM
This question is even more flawed.

"Bottom line is regardless of all of this BS about unions, labor, competition, etc, wtc, etc. Purchasing an American badged car is better for us as Americans than purchasing an import."

It gets more complicated.

The car I recently bought, is a "ford" festiva (Kia) 1993. Ford lost money on this, and they continue to do so, with the small cars so they can get their average MPG to fit the bigger stuff and avoid the fines.

I actively looked for a $&!^ can car for the MPG since I think gas will be $5 a gallon in the next two years. I live in Oregon. Big distances. My counties are as big as most states back east. Aside from the Cooper-Mini from BMW, where are the nice small cars from America? We make the distiction that a small car is an "entry" car." And a big car is something else......

Compaired to my motorcycle, and the cusp at 70 degrees, the Festiva is luxury.

ChromeGorilla
03-24-2006, 03:27 PM
Is anyone able to provide a compelling argument that buying an import manufacturer vehicle is better for the economy and ultimately the citizens of the United States versus an American manufacturer based vehicle?


Sure.... If I buy a BMW that was built 10 miles from my front door in Greer, SC I am giving my money to a company who is paying my neighbors salary. He is a maintenance tech in the plant.

No different than when I bought my Chevy and GM took my money and paid some dude who lives in Michigan or wherever.....

dfunde01
03-24-2006, 04:50 PM
Good discussion everybody. I'm glad I've not yet seen one of these :kaioken: directed toward anyone.
Woodsy, I miss the rum runners in the pool at the Sarasota Hyatt.
I'm planning to continue expressing my opinions regarding some of the responses here as I get the chance.
I'd like to ask my question again:
Is anyone able to provide a compelling argument that buying an import manufacturer vehicle is better for the economy and ultimately the citizens of the United States versus an American manufacturer based vehicle?

Ranman,

Do you consider Damlier Chryser an American manufacturer?

Is Jaguar a Ford and therefore American?

Dave

tiger lily
03-24-2006, 05:17 PM
why is it the word "union" is brought, every just brings up the UAW, and then it goes into the high cost of cars, well there is alot more union jobs besides the UAW, are people blaming the teamsters for the high cost of trucking? what about all of the construction traders that are union? concrete, ironworkers, carpenters, labors union(yes the labors have there own union) in my eyes the UAW takes the blame because they are so big, im sure wherever you work wether its union or non-union, you have lazy asshats that milk the company and dont get fired while you bust your ass, only diffrence is , there might be 2 slackers for every 10 in your place, now the auto plants have thousands of people in them, where i work we have less than 10 people, and 3 of them need to be fired IMO, 1 comes in, clocks in then goes to his truck and drink for 45 minutes in the morning, another reads the paper for 30 minutes, and the other is just a lazy turd all day, and they can not be fired for some reason, and they are all non union, now our partner company is union, and for some reason, if someone is messing up there, they are let go right away, zero tolerance, now they might be able to go back to the union hall and get in with another company, but wont last long there either it seems like, the point of this post is, im just sick of hearing about how you cant get fired if you are a union worker..

MrsDigger
03-24-2006, 08:57 PM
I believe that this thread is totally inappropriate for this board given the stated apolitical position that the board's host has espoused.

Politics are unwelcome here and I am not happy with this thread. I think it has no place on this forum.

Schnook
03-24-2006, 09:56 PM
I believe that this thread is totally inappropriate for this board given the stated apolitical position that the board's host has espoused.
Politics are unwelcome here and I am not happy with this thread. I think it has no place on this forum.
Don't be a thread hater. Nice use of big words, though.:biggrin:

Schnook
03-24-2006, 10:16 PM
why is it the word "union" is brought, every just brings up the UAW, and then it goes into the high cost of cars, well there is alot more union jobs besides the UAW, are people blaming the teamsters for the high cost of trucking? what about all of the construction traders that are union? concrete, ironworkers, carpenters, labors union(yes the labors have there own union) in my eyes the UAW takes the blame because they are so big, im sure wherever you work wether its union or non-union, you have lazy asshats that milk the company and dont get fired while you bust your ass, only diffrence is , there might be 2 slackers for every 10 in your place, now the auto plants have thousands of people in them, where i work we have less than 10 people, and 3 of them need to be fired IMO, 1 comes in, clocks in then goes to his truck and drink for 45 minutes in the morning, another reads the paper for 30 minutes, and the other is just a lazy turd all day, and they can not be fired for some reason, and they are all non union, now our partner company is union, and for some reason, if someone is messing up there, they are let go right away, zero tolerance, now they might be able to go back to the union hall and get in with another company, but wont last long there either it seems like, the point of this post is, im just sick of hearing about how you cant get fired if you are a union worker..
I was a steel worker for 8 years. Two examples;
1. Union president gets caught sleeping on the job, again. His supervisor writes him a reprimand. The pres wads it up, tells the supervisor he can wipe his a$$ with it, and goes back to sleep.
2. A union officer's son gets busted smoking pot on the job. Immediately fired. The union drops several other legitimate grievances and the kid gets his job back. The rank and file are bragging about what a strong union we have...
That's just two examples of how a union enables employees who would rather not do an honest days work. I could go on for hours. I believe unions have been a very useful institution. But like any powerful tool, they can be a double-edged sword, and do harm as well as good. In this day and age they have been used to make it easy to do nothing. In my 8 years as a union member, I learned that my reward for working hard and doing a good job was more work to pick up the slack for the people who couldn't be touched and wouldn't work. Hard to justify that.

MrsDigger
03-24-2006, 10:22 PM
Schnook, I'm hardly a thread-hater...but politics are out, I heard it from the Big Man himself, on multiple occasions. Believe me, this thread would have died an untimely death had I responded with a political opinion. I simply believe that if we are going to be apolitical, we should be consistently apolitical. This is a boating forum.

Schnook
03-24-2006, 10:27 PM
AAAHHH, grasshopper-ette, you do not understand the true nature of your lesson. You must aspire to be totally apolitical (which I don't think is a word anyway) yet be totally political as well. Just do not leave prints on the rice paper.

p.s. A nice vodka tonic really helps with this lesson, too.

goatee
03-24-2006, 10:40 PM
maybe im alone here, maybe not but,,,i see this thread as a discussion of autos, auto manufacturing, the u.s., and u.s. economy.
none of wich is a "black and white" subject...lotta gray!!! im learning alot from this discussion.

political.............would have more discussion of politics, elected officials, voting,
ect. ect. ...i have no idea how you would have confused the two subjects

TuxedoPk
03-24-2006, 10:45 PM
Hasn't Chrome's purchase just advanced the cause of what most people consider the American auto industry? Let's face it, as the industry stands now it's been dying a slow cancer like death from which it will not recover short of divine intervention- it's time to finally kill the dying beast.

Personally I believe that the industry won't ever recover but it can experience a rebirth once the final nails are in the UAW coffin and things start fresh. Look at all the troubled airlines which have remained troubled airlines and then look at Jet Blue which started new.

Ed Donnelly
03-25-2006, 12:50 AM
Since this is NOT political, I will dare to say a few things

Schnook; If Mrs Digger prints the word, it is a word
Apolitical 1) Having no interest in,or association with politics.
2) Having no political relevance or importance...

Lgmaz; My 2000 F150 Harley Davidson was made in Oakville Ontario Canada
My 2006 F150 Harley Davidson was built in the Good Old USA. I didn't really care where it was built as long as it was a Ford. A better warranty would have been nice................Ed

ChromeGorilla
03-25-2006, 05:57 AM
I believe that this thread is totally inappropriate for this board given the stated apolitical position that the board's host has espoused.
Politics are unwelcome here and I am not happy with this thread. I think it has no place on this forum.


Geez.... when this thread started I knew it was a matter of time till this post showed up. And I knew where it would come from too......

I don't believe this to be a political thread at all. Get over it. This has been a great thread......... until......:rolleyes:


It happens every friggin time.....


Hell I shouldn't of even made this post... it will just fuel the fire....:rolleyes:

ChromeGorilla
03-25-2006, 06:01 AM
Everyone be sure to throw Ranman some Rep points for starting a GREAT thread...... I have enjoyed it....:beer:

gold-n-rod
03-25-2006, 07:16 AM
I believe that this thread is totally inappropriate for this board given the stated apolitical position that the board's host has espoused.
Politics are unwelcome here and I am not happy with this thread. I think it has no place on this forum.

Oh, give me a god damned break.

People post about events. These events are held around the country. In order to get there, participants have to cross juristictional boundaries. Often, these boundaries were set (and are maintained) as a result of political actions. So, do we not discuss how to get to events?

Or the flags at the top of this page. I think they were put up there to recognize the member countries that are represented here. Maybe to create a sense of pride (patriotism)? So, should we have to avoid topics of patriotism?

If that's the case, then the gifs that some display in their sigs can go too, since tools of war are both patriotic and political, depending on one's individual perspective.

A most civil and interesting post has been sullied by the whine of one. What a shame.

Schnook
03-25-2006, 08:34 AM
Since this is NOT political, I will dare to say a few things
Schnook; If Mrs Digger prints the word, it is a word
Apolitical 1) Having no interest in,or association with politics.
2) Having no political relevance or importance...
Lgmaz; My 2000 F150 Harley Davidson was made in Oakville Ontario Canada
My 2006 F150 Harley Davidson was built in the Good Old USA. I didn't really care where it was built as long as it was a Ford. A better warranty would have been nice................Ed
Ed,
Thanks for the english lesson. However, if one will take the time to reread my post, one will see that it was written in jest. In other words, I wuz just funnin' Mrs Digger. It seems a few others might follow the same tack in order to keep this thread enjoyable. Can't help you with the choice of a Ford, though. :wink: I actually like the HD F150's a lot.

roadtrip se
03-25-2006, 10:43 AM
I've been quietly watching this one unfold from the sidelines for the past couple of days. Thanks Randy for having the guts to post it.

Buy American does have ramifications to our economy and it is possible to buy more American and less import if you do your research. And that means looking beyond the biased Consumer Reports and actually doing your research like Google, Edmunds, JD Power, and the like.

The harsh reality is that depending on what source you look at, eight to ten percent of our economy is dependent on the American car companies.

The American car companies are in a world of hurt, due to the globalization of the industry which include dirty little secrets like foreign currency manipulation against the dollar, socialized health care, and government funded retirement plans. The American car companies have also agreed to unsustainable contracts with the the unions, bloated management, and made poor design decisions for years.

Living the dream here in Detroit, I got to watch as many workers, white and blue collar alike, wondered what their futures would hold as Ford and GM announced an additional 60,000 layoffs shortly after the holidays. The American car companies are now 25% lighter in employee count, than they were in 2001 here in Michigan, and thats before this latest round of 60K! These are Americans that probably are not going to be flush with cash to buy whatever good or service that you might be engaged in delivering, so that you may feed your family or upgrade the Donzi.

The transplants are not contributing to the American economy like the American car companies do. Their profits go back to Asia. Their content is much less likely to be produced by Americans. Their workers, white and blue collar alike, do not enjoy the pay scales, healthcare, or retirement benefits that many of us do.

You have a choice. Jill and I bought a Jetta a couple of years ago, due to the fact that we had few choices when it came to a diesel-powered car from anyone, much less the American car companies. We also own a couple of Ford products. We've driven products from Dodge, GMC, and Mazda in the past. When you are in the market, do your research, we have, and if it is possible, buy American.

TuxedoPk
03-25-2006, 11:51 AM
What's the big deal if we buy american cars... after all, we're all driving around in our I-talian Donzi boats :biggrin: :biggrin:

Doug L.
03-25-2006, 12:17 PM
Thanks Todd,
Well said
Right now it looks like I will be unemployed on the 31st.
Doug:banghead:

goatee
03-25-2006, 12:31 PM
Everyone be sure to throw Ranman some Rep points for starting a GREAT thread...... I have enjoyed it....:beer:


i already did. great post! very informative by everyone elses response.
learning alot.
.in market for a ram 2500.

Carl C
03-25-2006, 05:56 PM
Ford and GM can't afford to lose the full size truck market; they better stay on top of that one. The Corvette and Mustang should stay popular and GM needs a new Camaro. I don't know what to think about Chrysler since they are a German company but they still provide jobs here. Anyway, just some thoughts.:convertib

joseph m. hahnl
03-25-2006, 06:09 PM
IIf somebody is willing to do your job for half what you make and produce the same quality work- then you are overpaid. .


well aparently you have never bought anything made in china. To even considor a foreign product to be the same quality as an American Product is ludicrous. You people do need to wake up. Generally American products cost more because they are made better and adhear to standards. Especially in auto making. ISO, SAE .It is not a free for all as it is with foreign Manufacturing. DO you buy an electric motor thats not UL recognized or CSA certified. American Manufacturing has been improving it standard continously . We invented Quality control. The Driving force behind any foreign made product is quanity "not Quality" That is why Honda and Toyota have there cars assembled here. They recognize how well american products are made.Maybe the Fat ass who eats at Mcdonalds every day and does the minimum amount of work is overpaid. But I am way under paid for my skill level. I personally Have never found anything astonding or extrodinary about any foreign product.Japenese build well America builds the best hands down.



joe

Carl C
03-25-2006, 06:25 PM
The title of this thread asks "is it unpatriotic to not buy American cars" and after reading this thread and thinking about it that my answer would now be no. It seems that this has become so globalized that all of the manufacturers are providing jobs here. So our concern here in Michigan is just that GM, Ford and Chrysler stay healthy. I sure hope they can lower their costs and stay on top.:pretzel:

ChromeGorilla
03-25-2006, 06:29 PM
So our concern here in Michigan is just that Chrysler stay healthy. I sure hope they can lower their costs and stay on top.:pretzel:



Chrysler!?!?!?!......:germany: ;) ;)

Carl C
03-25-2006, 06:37 PM
Chrysler!?!?!?!......:germany: ;) ;) Yes, Scott, the Chrysler division world headquarters is practically in my backyard! This means a lot of jobs and IMO that's what it comes down to!

Darrell
03-25-2006, 07:48 PM
I think it is patriotic to buy American cars, and that is not political. We sell Pontiac, Cadillac and GMC trucks so I might be bias. I hear a lot about quality, I have drove GMC trucks for the last 12 years (I trade every 3 years) and I have never had a warranty claim. I know that they do break down, but the quality of the American cars over the last ten years is pretty darn good.

I Hope GM & Ford can survive, I guess I could sell the overseas brands, but I just don't think it would be the same.


Darrell

If you can buy American.

Schnook
03-25-2006, 08:58 PM
well aparently you have never bought anything made in china. To even considor a foreign product to be the same quality as an American Product is ludicrous. You people do need to wake up. Generally American products cost more because they are made better and adhear to standards. Especially in auto making. ISO, SAE .It is not a free for all as it is with foreign Manufacturing. DO you buy an electric motor thats not UL recognized or CSA certified. American Manufacturing has been improving it standard continously . We invented Quality control. The Driving force behind any foreign made product is quanity "not Quality" That is why Honda and Toyota have there cars assembled here. They recognize how well american products are made.Maybe the Fat ass who eats at Mcdonalds every day and does the minimum amount of work is overpaid. But I am way under paid for my skill level. I personally Have never found anything astonding or extrodinary about any foreign product.Japenese build well America builds the best hands down.
joe

Here is where the global thing gets you, check into the origins of ISO certifiication. Not American.

Rootsy
03-26-2006, 09:09 AM
ISO is so over... welcome to TS16949... http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif

TuxedoPk
03-26-2006, 10:02 AM
I went back and re-read the essay in Ranman's original post and have come to the conclusion that the author's logic is simply flawed. In has last point he goes on to write that

"General Motors has the highest market share of any automobile company. To say the company that currently sells more cars and trucks to more people than any other company in the industry -- even if that market share is falling -- is truly ridiculous."

To assert the position that it is unpatriotic to not increasingly support a company that can't succeed in spite of already possessing this type of market share is rediculous.

I also have a real problem with applauding the American automakers with providing their workers with pensions. Pensions have been phased out by almost the entire US private sector in favor of 401k plans which are primarily employee funded. If the rest of the economy had the good sense to recognize defined benefit pensions weren't fiscally prudent choice then shouldn't this be, to quote Colbert, a 'wag of the finger' for the auto industry?

Another problem I have with this whole patriotism argument is that it accurately depicts just how incredibly self focused we as a people can be. We live in a global economy yet this article focuses solely on US consumption of the products Detroit is putting out. Would not every purchase of a foreign made automobile be offset by the foreign purchase of a domestic vehicle? Using the Japanese culture as an example- they have embraced and embraced so much of our culture in terms of clothing and music but American cars haven't made a dent- and this isn't purely coincidental.

I have empathy for those whose lives are negatively impacted by the sad state of this industry- my comments are meant to challenge the arugments of the writer and address the issues on a macro scale.

MOP
03-26-2006, 10:10 AM
I also applaud Ranman for getting this post going, I do not think it is political at all. The auto industry and not just ours are one of the biggest driving forces behind all economies. Fuel efficiency and alternatives need to be addressed and NOW in order to survive, the questions need to be raised and implemented as soon as possible.

The point that fuel costs will soar is a given, I feel that is where the industries thoughts should be. In the 70's they took up the torch and produced a ton of fuel efficient vehicles, that was when gas was 1/4 to 1/3 of what it is now forget 5 years from now. Gee we think we are smart an superior, we sure did not learn our lesson. We allowed our money hungry Oil/Auto companies set our path they did not care just fed our ego's!

It is high time we started to ditch our ego's in favor of our and other nations survival in the very near future.

I think it is high time to pull the stops on the production of vehicles that can possibly save the day, if they jump on the band wagon again here and now I think they can survive.

The US is a great nation but can it stay that way without a dramatic change in course.

It will come down to feeding the industrialized nations I believe a lot sooner then many think, unless steps are taken now by all nations auto companies the fuel dependant nations will regress to a 2nd or maybe even 3rd world nations! Just imagine LA, NY, London, Paris, Moscow and many other large cities not being able to bring in food for their masses! What do you think will happen, conjures many ugly thoughts!!

It is time for an all out effort, write your senators and congressmen lets get things going on a much more positive track, we can no longer live for NOW we must give all our thoughts to the future!

Phil

roadtrip se
03-26-2006, 11:41 AM
I don't think there is anything xenophobic about being a little concerned about what is going on in my backyard as 8-10% of our manufacturing base evaporates and sixty thousand more people look for something to do to feed their families.

I agree that gold standard pay, healthcare, and retirement plans must go away to be competitive in a world of cosumer choices.
What I don't agree with is foreign currency manipluation and what amounts to subsidies through government-sponsored healthcare and retirement plans. These "global" market manipulations are giving import automakers a cost advantage on every vehicle they build here or elsewhere.

Healthcare is a political mess that I don't care to go into here, but somehow, the US has got to figure out how to contain costs.

Yes, retirement plans should be self-funded.

Currency manilpulation IS something we can exert some influence on. Japan, Korea, and China all play significant games with their currency against the dollar to prop up their exports.

China is the next big exporter of autos to the USA on the horizon. Ironically, GM is one of the biggest shops in China right now and amazingly, a lot of their technology is showing up in identical, Chinese knock-offs.., a whole other bucket of worms, as the government looks the other way.

The American worker deserves a fair playing field, not a tilted one, on the global stage. Many of the American products are vastly superior, contrary to what the media continues to pound into our skulls, to their import counterparts. I don't think there is anything wrong with being preferential, and yes, maybe a little patriotic towards the choice of a car or truck that I choose to buy and drive, if the product serves my needs and is equal to or better than an import towards meeting my needs.

If you want to get a little more educated, here is a great article on American Axle, obviously an American company, that has figured out how to compete globally and holds some possible nuggets for the American companies it supplies.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060326/AUTO02/603260356/1148/AUTO01

Ranman
03-26-2006, 04:02 PM
I've been quietly watching this one unfold from the sidelines for the past couple of days. Thanks Randy for having the guts to post it.
Buy American does have ramifications to our economy and it is possible to buy more American and less import if you do your research. And that means looking beyond the biased Consumer Reports and actually doing your research like Google, Edmunds, JD Power, and the like.
The harsh reality is that depending on what source you look at, eight to ten percent of our economy is dependent on the American car companies.
The American car companies are in a world of hurt, due to the globalization of the industry which include dirty little secrets like foreign currency manipulation against the dollar, socialized health care, and government funded retirement plans. The American car companies have also agreed to unsustainable contracts with the the unions, bloated management, and made poor design decisions for years.
Living the dream here in Detroit, I got to watch as many workers, white and blue collar alike, wondered what their futures would hold as Ford and GM announced an additional 60,000 layoffs shortly after the holidays. The American car companies are now 25% lighter in employee count, than they were in 2001 here in Michigan, and thats before this latest round of 60K! These are Americans that probably are not going to be flush with cash to buy whatever good or service that you might be engaged in delivering, so that you may feed your family or upgrade the Donzi.
The transplants are not contributing to the American economy like the American car companies do. Their profits go back to Asia. Their content is much less likely to be produced by Americans. Their workers, white and blue collar alike, do not enjoy the pay scales, healthcare, or retirement benefits that many of us do.
You have a choice. Jill and I bought a Jetta a couple of years ago, due to the fact that we had few choices when it came to a diesel-powered car from anyone, much less the American car companies. We also own a couple of Ford products. We've driven products from Dodge, GMC, and Mazda in the past. When you are in the market, do your research, we have, and if it is possible, buy American.

What you have summarized is exactly what I'm getting at! The "is it unpatriotic" question is a bit much, depending on your perspective and served to draw in the crowd. Again, what you're saying in these few paragrahs is exactly the philosophy I believe could seriously make a difference should more people choose to adopt it.

Ranman
03-26-2006, 04:11 PM
I went back and re-read the essay in Ranman's original post and have come to the conclusion that the author's logic is simply flawed. In has last point he goes on to write that
"General Motors has the highest market share of any automobile company. To say the company that currently sells more cars and trucks to more people than any other company in the industry -- even if that market share is falling -- is truly ridiculous."
To assert the position that it is unpatriotic to not increasingly support a company that can't succeed in spite of already possessing this type of market share is rediculous.
I also have a real problem with applauding the American automakers with providing their workers with pensions. Pensions have been phased out by almost the entire US private sector in favor of 401k plans which are primarily employee funded. If the rest of the economy had the good sense to recognize defined benefit pensions weren't fiscally prudent choice then shouldn't this be, to quote Colbert, a 'wag of the finger' for the auto industry?
Another problem I have with this whole patriotism argument is that it accurately depicts just how incredibly self focused we as a people can be. We live in a global economy yet this article focuses solely on US consumption of the products Detroit is putting out. Would not every purchase of a foreign made automobile be offset by the foreign purchase of a domestic vehicle? Using the Japanese culture as an example- they have embraced and embraced so much of our culture in terms of clothing and music but American cars haven't made a dent- and this isn't purely coincidental.
I have empathy for those whose lives are negatively impacted by the sad state of this industry- my comments are meant to challenge the arugments of the writer and address the issues on a macro scale.

Rich,

Whether or not I agree with you, I do have to say that I always enjoy your point of view, analytical approach, and overall rational in your well responses.

I have enjoyed this topic and am glad to see that the whole thing has been a pretty healthy discussion amongst the members here.

gcarter
03-26-2006, 05:03 PM
Let me make a hypothetical prediction.....
Ever since Daimler Benz bought Chrysler, the German Corporation have been hedging their bets as to whether they will stay in Germany.
So, if that happens, is there a big three again?
This has been threatened a number of times to gain concessions from the German unions and government regulations.
As bad as things are here, they are much worse in "Old" Europe.

Carl C
03-26-2006, 06:04 PM
Xenophobic! I had to look that one up. Mop, careful what you wish for or we'll all end up in wind powered boats:rlol: Whew, I'm going back to the boat threads!:rolleyes:

Brad Lyon
03-26-2006, 08:02 PM
Ranman, I stand right next to you on this! It is my opinion that foreign car owners have done more damage to the United States than Osama Bin Laden could ever dream of. Plain and simple, the masses are incurably ignorant, they think it is just about GM, Ford or Chrysler. They can not think past what they are told on the news and on TV commercials. Yes, I consider Chrysler a domestic car company, and I don’t consider anything manufactured or assembled in Canada foreign. For the simple fact that with Canada it is a level playing field unlike Japan.
How many thousands of machine tool manufacturers, tool and die shops, tooling manufacturers, etc have gone out of business due to imports. It has tapered off lately but not too long ago I was getting 30 to 40 auction notices a day of US manufacturing companies going out of business. Why, because of the restrictions that the foreign manufacturers put on their projects that essentially limit who can bid on their requirements leaving only Japanese machine suppliers capable of bidding.
Is this topic political, hell yes this is political! Our government has been messing with the auto companies and their suppliers for decades. From the thirties to the late eighties they backed the unions, big time. These companies are doing what they can but it is hard for these companies to undo sixty plus years of pressure from our government. Now states and cities are giving huge tax concessions to these transplants to move to their state. Our government let Suzuki bring in cars and rate them as motorcycles because the were so light in weight, they aloud another company to bring in trucks and rate them as cars if they put two seats in the truck bed. This saved these companies millions in taxes. Hell, name one thing our government can’t keep it’s fingers out of. I love my country but I fear my government.
Design, I grew up in the area where most General Motors and American Motors designers and engineers lived. Two of my closest friends in high school were Mark Jordan, his father was Chuck Jordan (http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/2003/030617eod-jordan/index.html), and another close friend of mine was Jeff Teague, his father was Dick (Richard) Teague (http://www.brophy.com/eodweb/htmls/designers/hd99_1.htm). The designs and concepts that have and still come out of domestic car companies are second to none. However, the designers are not the people that make the decision of what goes to market and what does not. Japanese design at its best, well there is the Honda Element and the Scion, what the f**k is that! It’s a box on wheels. And some say that the domestic car companies do not make any attractive cars.
Quality, the Toyota Camry has a higher percentage of sales cost put aside for warranty repairs than any other car or truck on the market. Anyone that takes the Ford Rouge tour will NEVER buy a Toyota or Datsun or Honda truck. You can not compare a Ford truck with a Japanese truck. Oh yea, Datsun changed their name to Nissan because they had such a bad quality reputation, remember the B210?
Things might be different if it was competition on a level playing field. But it hasn’t been since these companies started importing cars into this country and the inequality continues today.

Woodsy
03-26-2006, 09:43 PM
Guys...

Your missing the point.

We as Americans stand on our soapbox and preach free trade to the rest of the world. You live by the sword, you die by the sword!

We as Americans get to choose what car we wish to buy. Long gone are days of "You can have any color car you want as long as its black."

We have chosen foreign cars over domestic products because, quite frankly the foriegn car companies are quick to respond to consumer demands. Whether its real or not, there is a percieved difference in quality. The first car with a cup holder wasn't a GM or Ford Or Chrysler product. I believe it was Toyota who came up with that idea...

Anyway, it really doesn't matter what car you buy, because all of the manufacturers have some sort of assembly base here in the U.S. Thats because our government slapped them with import tarriffs. Roadtrip is wrong that the profits go to Japan or Korea... all of the companies that sell automobiles in America are publicly traded companies. The profits and losses are distributed amongst the shareholders worldwide. Welcome to the Global Economy.

The reason 60000+ people are going to be out of work is because they are overpaid in the Global Economy. Its really simple economics, he who costs the most to keep will be replaced by someone who costs less. Why pay a guy in Detroit $40hr to operate the robot that puts on the lug nuts when you can pay a Mexican $5.00 per hour? Unions bargained huge pay & benefit concessions for thier members. Nobody believed the Big 3 Auto Manufacturers when they said these concessions were unsustainable. Well... guess who was right?

I am not a fan of big business, and most publicly traded companies have no soul. They are slaves to the whims of the shareholders, who, quite frankly don't give a sh*t about the small guy trying to feed his family. They are only concerned with the next quarterly report and if they made or lost money. Just look how GM's stock jumped in price upon the layoff & restructuring announcements!

GM and Ford need some serious surgery... they can be reborn from the ashes, but its going to be a painful process.

Woodsy

BTW: I only own domestic cars... 2 Ford Taurus, 1 Dodge Ram, a couple of Polaris Snowmobiles and of course a Donzi!

FISHIN SUCKS
03-26-2006, 10:17 PM
I have been guilty of having to rent 2 jap cars in my ten years of renting from National and being an executive elite memeber...and nothing makes me feel more less of a man than getting into or being seen in one of these things with a weedwacker motor to boot!

In a way, I don't mind having a little foreign stuff around at the track...I need something to beat! I race my corvette on hoosier race tires (not kumho's) and have whipped everything in my class like a 4 year old get's spanked in K-mart! Does it make a difference? Na, these goober's will just tell you 'I get better gas mileage than you do' or 'mine didn't cost as much yours did' or blah blah. Their resale value will never be as good as my corvette!

Point is I feel better! My conscious tells me. My '03 chevy Z71 has not let me down(except for when I run out of gas, my bad) and pulls all of our toys if we choose to not use Barbi's '05 escalade. And as for our '65 buick wildcat GS convertible, fugetta bout it!

Be American, Buy American! And if the Canadians have a hand in it, that's okay too! Do I have to buy a Peterbilt or Kenworth SUV to prove my patriotism? No. But It would be manly and cool!:shades:

Schnook
03-26-2006, 10:43 PM
Wow! This is really getting good. Woodsy, I almost want to copy your post and put my name to it - well said.
For everyone else, go back and read my post about the light at the end of the tunnel is a train called globlization. It's a new playing field, and like it or not, level or not, it's coming, and you can get on board and deal with it, or bitch about it and get left at the station. It's coming though.
p.s. I'd love to see a pic of that wildcat!

donzi182003
03-27-2006, 08:55 AM
I agree with Ranman on this topic but I do have an opinion. I was seriously considering buying an '06 Lexus GS430 as a daily driver. In order to buy American and not get the Jap car speech from everyone I know, I went out and bought an '06 Cadillac CTS. I am not totally disappointed with it but you absolutely cannot compare these two cars. The Lexus has a far better ride, far better initial quality, and the Caddy has been to the dealer twice in two months. And to boot, the service writers treat me like I am grabbing their ba..s in a vise when I speak to them. At Lexus they damn near kissed my feet when I would walk into the showroom and I have had to take an LS430 in for maintenance and they wash and wax the car for me. At Cadillac they give me the car back dirtier than I left it and send me off with a swift kick in the ass. I think that when you pay over 40K for a mid size 4 door they should kiss your ass the way Lexus does! In some cases American automakers are giving themselves self-inflicted injury.I am a firm beleiver in buying American trucks, but in the passenger car segment, I absolutely will never ever buy American again.


My 2 cents,
Ed

Schnook
03-27-2006, 09:28 AM
Maybe you need to try a different dealer. We have had two caddies; an 03 CTS and an 04 SRX. We have taken them to 3 different dealers, and every one has given us the red carpet treatment. Wash, wax, detail interior, clean tires and wheels. We had to have the rear window seal replaced and they gave us a new SRX to drive as a loaner, not an entry level car like others. The service is actually one of the reasons we went with a caddy again. I agree, the fit and finish is not up to the level of Lexus or BMW, but I like the direction they're going. I guess you couldn't go anywhere but up after the catera!

FISHIN SUCKS
03-27-2006, 09:50 AM
p.s. I'd love to see a pic of that wildcat!
I'll have to find a picture, download, and show ya. Redline tires, 4 speed, dual quad big block, no power steering. You are required to go to the hardware store and get a pair before you can drive this landyacht. The J. A. Pan company never produced anything like this.

Globalization is a reality, like it or not. Bad service can happen anywhere, just sucks when it happens to you. Extended warranties are a rip-off, try having an OEM stand behind them, they don't!

BUIZILLA
03-27-2006, 11:23 AM
this is my Wildcat convert.....

boldts
03-27-2006, 12:32 PM
I support Aerican workers as often as possible. I've always until recently bought or leased American made cars. My last being a Chevy Tahoe I liked very much. It towed the boat with ease and actually managed to get 20 MPG on the highway non towing after I placed synthetic motor oil in the truck. Because of my financial situation at present, when my lease expired on this truck, I had to purchase something first I could afford and second, didn't cost me a fortune to drive. I bought a Honda Civic. 30 MPG just driving around town. Highway mileage is even better. So far, no breakdowns of any type, but I've only had it for a couple months. Honda has a large factory in Northern Ohio, so I guess in a way, I'm still supporting American workers. Just not an American born company. The service I have had done at the local dealer has been fantastic. I get the car back clean and ready to go. I believe service and first impressions are so important. After all, it's a buyers market. I don't have to go to Honda to have the car serviced, but because the service I receive is so dependable, why not?

In my younger days about 15 years ago, I used to work at our airport valet parking cars. What a fantastic job for at the time a complete motor head kind of guy. The kids were always wanting the Porshes, Mercedes, BMWs etc. Some of the coolest cars I got to drive were early American muscle cars. Cars like Mustangs from the 60s, Camaros from that same time period and my all time favorites, a 442 with Lightning Rods and an older 442 behemouth with dual quads. Those kids working with me don't know what they missed. I must admit though, the Lamborgini I got to drive once was very cool as I stepped out, got a tip, and walked around to pull the door down and climb in behind the wheel. Probably the slowest I ever drove back from the airport though because I was to scared of damaging the car in some way.

Believe me, if I could, I'd own another full size American company SUV in a heartbeat. Because some day, I plan to own another American built Donzi boat.

TBroccoli
03-27-2006, 03:12 PM
If we all bought only American vehicles what would happen to the Merchant Marine and the workers at the ports? Should we just forget about them? The UAW is at fault. We priced ourselves out of work. Chrysler is Newark, DE shut down for 18 months years back when the plant was converting over to make the Durango. All employees were given FULL pay for 18 months and given a date to return back to work. The workers were outraged because they only received FULL pay for doing nothing and not estimated OT. Give me a break. The type of car you buy has nothing to do with Patriotism. Support our troops or enlist yourself!!!

Sorry for the rant. Having a bad day.

ChromeGorilla
03-27-2006, 03:20 PM
If we all bought only American vehicles what would happen to the Merchant Marine and the workers at the ports? Should we just forget about them? The UAW is at fault. We priced ourselves out of work. Chrysler is Newark, DE shut down for 18 months years back when the plant was converting over to make the Durango. All employees were given FULL pay for 18 months and given a date to return back to work. The workers were outraged because they only received FULL pay for doing nothing and not estimated OT. Give me a break. The type of car you buy has nothing to do with Patriotism. Support our troops or enlist yourself!!!
Sorry for the rant. Having a bad day.


Don't be sorry.... good perspective....

roadtrip se
03-27-2006, 06:38 PM
Give me a break. The type of car you buy has nothing to do with Patriotism. Support our troops or enlist yourself!!!
Sorry for the rant. Having a bad day.

Um, since when is being concerned about your neighbor's welfare, much less 60,000 of them, not a patriotic thing?

Woodsy, free markets doesn't mean free for all, which is what we have today in the automotive market. Last time I checked, none of the import car companies trade on our stock exchanges. I don't know about you, but I don't trade many shares on the Nikkei.

This discussion has been limited to American Automotive, I wonder how many of you might change your tune when your high paying Information Technology or Call Center job is shipped to India or China?

Enjoy your imports while you can still pay for them in the new global economy.

Bob
03-27-2006, 07:17 PM
Let's try testing your patriotism with this example:

Instead of paying OPEC $50 a barrell for their "imported" oil, why not pay American companies $ 150 a barrell to produce the costlier to find and pump "domestic" crude.

All of a sudden, the global economy isn't so bad when you are the consumer.


:yes:

Sagbay32
03-27-2006, 07:40 PM
It is easy for me. My Father retired from GM and my Father-in-law retired from Ford. I get the family plan either way.

I am Switzerland because I build roads for all cars to drive on. :outtahere
Mike

Woodsy
03-27-2006, 08:17 PM
Um, since when is being concerned about your neighbor's welfare, much less 60,000 of them, not a patriotic thing?
Woodsy, free markets doesn't mean free for all, which is what we have today in the automotive market. Last time I checked, none of the import car companies trade on our stock exchanges. I don't know about you, but I don't trade many shares on the Nikkei.
This discussion has been limited to American Automotive, I wonder how many of you might change your tune when your high paying Information Technology or Call Center job is shipped to India or China?
Enjoy your imports while you can still pay for them in the new global economy.

Roadtrip...

Maybe you should check your eyesight??? or perhaps do better research?

Honda Motor Corp. Traded on NYSE (also known as the Big Board)
Symbol: HMC
Last Trade: $31.43 per share
Market Cap of 57.79 BILLION

Toyota Motor Corp. Traded on NYSE
Symbol: TM
Last Trade: $109.25 per share
Market Cap of 177.68 BILLION

Ford Motor Co.
Symbol: F
Last Trade: $8.06
Market Cap of 15.02 BILLION

General Motors
Symbol: GM
Last Trade: $22.93 per share
Market Cap: 12.97 BILLION


Woodsy

roadtrip se
03-27-2006, 08:41 PM
but the rest of my argument stands.

While we are on the topic, anybody want to guess what the cost of lawsuits, both justified and un-justified, adds to the cost of an American vehicle? Try 1000 clams. Forget that our illustrious government can judge a car safe and a jury can turn their heads the other way and call a drunk driver in a domestic car a safety hazard. The car not the drunk! Of course, since the Americans still control over 50% of the market, their exposure is higher to this crap.

A "free" and "global" market includes healthcare and retirement plan subvention, currency manipulation, patent infringement and blatant copying of American intellectual capital, and a out of control tort system in the States.

Completely fair and open, pay to play, right....

roadtrip se
03-27-2006, 08:51 PM
Let's try testing your patriotism with this example:
Instead of paying OPEC $50 a barrell for their "imported" oil, why not pay American companies $ 150 a barrell to produce the costlier to find and pump "domestic" crude.
All of a sudden, the global economy isn't so bad when you are the consumer.
:yes:

Flawed logic and just really dumb. Using oil prices as an example of what is right with the global economy? Of course, in an effort to stay out of the politics, I'm not going to go further. Just dumb.

BUIZILLA
03-27-2006, 09:16 PM
A "free" and "global" market includes healthcare and retirement plan subvention, currency manipulation, patent infringement and blatant copying of American intellectual capital, and a out of control tort system in the States. ....IMO, this just about sums it all up...

JH

Schnook
03-27-2006, 09:50 PM
I think what sums it up is whether it's a level playing field or not, a global market is inevitable. I also think that everyone who has posted an opinion here is right - to a degree, but this topic is way too complex to resolve in one or two paragraphs. The U.S has been constantly challenged throughout it's history; militarily, religiously, morally, financially, and weathered each. Fact of the matter is, this is the only country that allows it's citizens the leeway to actually think outside of the box and be truly innovative. That's the secret to our success, freedom of the human spirit - and I am hoping that recipe will pull us through again. :yes:

RedDog
03-27-2006, 09:52 PM
Chevy Aveo.
Engine : Australia
Frame/Assembly: Korea
Transmission: Japan
Suspension Design: England
Styling Design: Italy

yep - and it was absolutely the crappiest rental car (or ay car for that matter) I have ever driven. It makes the early 70s Vega my sister had look nice.

Looped
03-27-2006, 10:06 PM
It’s too funny to hear most of these dreamt up concoctions that the newspapers & local TV channels have spread in the Detroit area about Toyota. Some of the things posted on this thread just crack me up to hear how far from the truth of what the facts really are.

Unfortunately, GM has done this to themselves and it’s been going on for a very long time. For an auto manufacturer in the US that offers a pension plan, they are required to pitch in at least a minimum amount each year that is regulated by the US government. Because they have been tossing in the absolute lowest amount they could each year since who knows when (and requested every year to have this figure lowered) it finely has caught up with them. If they had pitched in more back when car sales were booming for them they would be in better shape. This is just one of many issues they have encountered recently.

What they really need to do is bump up the product date of the Camaro (http://www.chevrolet.com/performance) a lot sooner than 2009-2010.

Craig

TuxedoPk
03-27-2006, 10:14 PM
While we are on the topic, anybody want to guess what the cost of lawsuits, both justified and un-justified, adds to the cost of an American vehicle? Try 1000 clams. Forget that our illustrious government can judge a car safe and a jury can turn their heads the other way and call a drunk driver in a domestic car a safety hazard. The car not the drunk! Of course, since the Americans still control over 50% of the market, their exposure is higher to this crap.
A "free" and "global" market includes healthcare and retirement plan subvention, currency manipulation, patent infringement and blatant copying of American intellectual capital, and a out of control tort system in the States.
Completely fair and open, pay to play, right....

Todd- I'm not sure I understand many of the points you raise; could you please expand upon them a bit as I'm not as close to the issue as you are.

- Where do the issues of healthcare and retirement factor into this? Are you suggesting that any country that has provides socialized medicine and benefits has an unfair advantage over their US counterparts who must factor in the cost of providing these benefits into each automobile?

- How does currency manipulation factor in? Who is doing it and how does it make an impact?

- I haven't heard about patent infringement and theft of american intellectual capital by the Japanese or German automakers before. Which mfgs are stealing what from whom?

- How does our out of control tort system punish the US automakers more than their foreign counterparts? Without knowing the details one would assume that both would suffer equally doing business in the US.

Looking forward to hearing your response and learning more about this topic.

gold-n-rod
03-28-2006, 05:52 AM
- Where do the issues of healthcare and retirement factor into this? Are you suggesting that any country that has provides socialized medicine and benefits has an unfair advantage over their US counterparts who must factor in the cost of providing these benefits into each automobile?
That's GM's stance on the matter. They claim a $1500 per vehicle cost disadvantage vs. the imports.


- I haven't heard about patent infringement and theft of american intellectual capital by the Japanese or German automakers before. Which mfgs are stealing what from whom?

Do a Google search on "Chery Automobile"

TBroccoli
03-28-2006, 07:22 AM
Roadtrip,

Ask the neighbor you are so concerned about if he still gets paid if he gets laid off. Also ask the other 60,000 UAW workers the same question. The UAW has a little bargaining agreement that states that the workers will continue to get paid even if they get laid off. Why do you think GM is trying to buy people out? The US autoworker has priced him/her self right out of business.
Note: Most "foreign" cars sold in America are assembled in America. More then likely, by Americans.

TuxedoPk
03-28-2006, 08:15 AM
Tux, nice try flopping this over to political thread
I suggest who stop trying to save the american automotive industry and get one of your donzi ready for the season ;) the season is almost upon us

Matty- Wasn't trying to flop this into a political thread; the questions I posted were honestly made just to learn a bit. Don't go getting on my back about getting a Donzi ready for the season- you weren't at the skunkworks party where we mounted a mizzen on the back of an X-boat :)

Rootsy
03-28-2006, 08:21 AM
Matty- Wasn't trying to flop this into a political thread; the questions I posted were honestly made just to learn a bit. Don't go getting on my back about getting a Donzi ready for the season- you weren't at the skunkworks party where we mounted a mizzen on the back of an X-boat :)

people have been tarred and feathered for lesser offenses tux... do i need to form a posse

Voodoocanoe
03-28-2006, 09:25 AM
Randy, My answer is YES.

Brad Lyon, Mark Jordan now works at Mazda:eek!: BTW I owned his fathers Donzi.

Small world.

TuxedoPk
03-28-2006, 09:50 AM
people have been tarred and feathered for lesser offenses tux... do i need to form a posse

The hardest part was cutting the right sized hole in the bimini before raising the pole;)

No need for a posse- Tossing sh@t at me is Matty's form of aerobic exercise.
Damned if I don't give him plenty of chances to work out :biggrin:

Carl C
03-28-2006, 10:44 AM
sorry what did i miss I was out waxing my dad's oldsmobile and dropping my health insurance payment in the mailbox ;)
Tux, nice try flopping this over to political thread
I suggest who stop trying to save the american automotive industry and get one of your donzi ready for the season ;) the season is almost upon usAlright Matty!:boat: :yes: This is one of those threads that could go on til the cows come home if allowed to. And it's just a matter of time til it gets political and ugly. Just my one cent worth!:boat:

Sam
03-28-2006, 10:54 AM
First off let me just say that I make my living as a supplier to the automotive industry so I am painfully aware of the many faces of this beast. Although I currently do not own a "Non American" car I have in the past and was very pleased with it. I have to admit the car that my wife just picked up is truly a world class car in it’s given class.

Now for the sticky part of the post. Let's just say for arguments sake that it would be considered unpatriotic to buy a non American car. Now, on the flip side of this stance and there always is a flip side. Would it be considered unpatriotic for an American OEM to not only source foreign suppliers but also to mandate a product be made overseas? Let's take it one step further. Would it be consider unpatriotic for an American OEM to re-source an American made part to an overseas company based on price?

If you were to ask an automotive financial guy those questions he would probably answer you by saying "NO" it's just a business decision and he would be right to a certain extent.

So my next question is, should Americans who choose to buy non American cars be considered “Unpatriotic” for making a business decision to buy a foreign car. After all if the OEM's are entitled to make business decisions then shouldn't the rest of Americans have the same right with out being labeled?

Just one more personal observation. We have an air base located here in the Metro Detroit area that has managed to avoid the axe. I have had the opportunity to go on and around the base many times. In so doing I see many of the enlisted personnel driving foreign cars. I’m guessing it’s because the price of the car and the mileage it may get; god knows you will never get rich in the military service. Having said that this is one American that will never question the PATAQRISOM of any of our military personnel based on what he or she is driving. Just my 2 cents.

LGMAZ
03-28-2006, 11:37 AM
Sam,
Back in the 60's my Dad was the CO of the Grosse Ile. Naval Air Station, but our housing was at Selfridge AFB. Even then, the pilots (aviators) were driving MG's and Jags.

Sam
03-28-2006, 12:37 PM
LGMAZ, that is such a coincidence you should mention that. I just found out last month that there was a base there back in the day. I heard there is still a standing building that housed a huge pool used for training. I need to put my research hat on.

THX
Sam

Rootsy
03-28-2006, 03:37 PM
LGMAZ, that is such a coincidence you should mention that. I just found out last month that there was a base there back in the day. I heard there is still a standing building that housed a huge pool used for training. I need to put my research hat on.
THX
Sam

My uncle was in the Navy during Vietnam... after his tour while awaiting his decomissioning or whatever ya call it he was stationed at the grosse ile base as part of the fire fighting team...